Deck Gun Ammo

[Helen Keller]

Aside from the fact that I would like either more rounds or a more powerful deck gun and fewer rounds, when exactly is the right time to use Armor Penetrating versus High Energy?

Should one (AP) go to punch holes below the waterline?

I just want to make sure I'm getting this right cause it seems that I shouldn't have to put so many rounds into a "Old Composite Freighter" or whatever, and I need the leftover for my idiotic attempts to just surface and run away from destroyers...

--

Helen Keller fights with a braille monitor.

[Pevs86]

AP below the waterline, HE (High Explosive) on the deck and at the bridge.

If you're good, fire HE at the props / rudder and immobilize the ship

[Helen Keller]

thanks for the fast response, how many rounds on average would you put into a freighter with AP on the 4/50 before she went under?

Is there a technique like in pistol shooting? (Walking up the Target, etc) Put all the rounds in one area to maximize flooding or space them all over to capsize?

Basically, what's the most efficient use of AP rounds?

[Pevs86]

I put 15 - 20 HE on the bridge, deck area and waterline, then put ~5 AP under the waterline, and ~5 AP into the area under the smoke stack - this usually starts a fire in the boiler room and causes a nice boom boom :)

But nothing is certain, I've put 80 shots into a merchant before :(

[Dizoak]

it really can vary alot depending on how well you're hitting the target. granted, below the waterline shots are desireable but not all of them. flooding takes a while to take hold sometimes, so spread your shots around to explode all the nice cargo she's carrying on deck if you can. secondary explosions can help take a ship down QUICK. last night, i hit a small two ship convoy of tankers, the big one took a torp and immediately slowed to 0 knts, the smaller one tried hiding behind it, i just took a course ahead of it and when she emerged from her cover, i put a deck gun round right amidships and KABLOOIE! she caught on fire and snapped in half (the best part was that the big ship was still making steerage and rammed RIGHT in between the two halves of the other ship.

sometimes you get REALLY REALLY lucky like that.

[Mr.Elendig]

I've had good experience with HE (high explosive, not high energy) under the waterline.
Several ships have gone down after <= 5 shots to the engine room.

BTW deckgun agains landed seaplanes works realy bad for some reason. 15 shots from a 4"? come on.... To bad my lovly S-18 dosn't have a 20mm

[HannesGM]

I came across a Betty that took a nosedive along the Japanese coast - I figured I'd try the deck gun on it, since it wasn't going anywhere fast (the engines were still running). To my amazement, even 10 hits from HE shells didn't do squat to the bomber - and some historians suggested Japanese aircraft weren't armored well?!? Guess AA must just tickle them...

[ParaB]

Why would you want to use AP rounds at all against a freighter? To make 3.5" or 4"-size holes in it? I exclusively use HE ammo against freighters and tankers and I'm not sure that historically subs carried AP ammo at all. In my SH3 careers I always changed the AP rounds for HE.

[Helen Keller]

Ok, i was getting around that 20 or so average, and then after I posted I sank one with 2 AP below waterline... then the ship that was travelling with it took 24.


It makes me wonder how the compartments are mapped in the damage model, like if you get an AP through a seam in the ship would it be impossible for the virtual japanese sailors to seal off the compartments? Or does it not get that intricate in the damage modelling?



Oh and HE can be High Energy or High Explosive (13 Bravo US Army here) depending on what force uses it.

But being Field Artillery, I'd take the reccomendation of a Coastal Artillery guy when it comes to naval nomenclature. I just like to blow stuff up.

[oblivionenigma]

I find that I ultimately take almost all my kills with the deck gun. I can hit a boat with my entire torpedo load and it won't go down >.<
It's weird how the damage with the deck gun works. I may take a large ship down with a couple rounds... And then another similar ship takes over 50.

[Chiller1064]

I find that I ultimately take almost all my kills with the deck gun. I can hit a boat with my entire torpedo load and it won't go down >.<
It's weird how the damage with the deck gun works. I may take a large ship down with a couple rounds... And then another similar ship takes over 50.

I believe I've read stories about ships that seem to cling to "life" and just take a pounding while others just roll over and die after a couple hits.

Playing the Training Mission for Torpedoes, I put two fish into the bow of the target cruiser- really tore the front end up. Did she die without a fight? Heck no! Had to work my way around to put a couple more into her while she was going evasive (granted she was moving slow and her bow was starting to drag her down).

I did the same thing when repeating the mission and watched some spectacular secondaries tear the cruiser apart and send her under the waves quickly.

[Helen Keller]

Last freighter I knocked out I got with a torp under her keel and it tore her in two, and as I watched it sink, i saw the inside of the ship was in the form of a honeycomb. I don't know if that's just how the graphics are painted on so when you breach the side it looks 3D, or if that's also the damage model, cause that would explain how my two randomly placed deck gun hits had sunk her.

I mean, if they do model the compartments like that, a close up AP round groing through could knock out ALOT of compartments.

I mean, if you think of the ship as a long pile of pipes, each one like a hexagon, and in cells, you could knock it out by sending the round down and from bow to stern or stern to bow, using it to slice a neat hole through as many of those cells, top to bottom and left to right, as is possible.

Granted, I wasn't thinking this at the time, I was thinking "PULL STRING GO BOOM!", but it might be true...

Anyone else know what I'm trying to get at? Or know something about how the ships are modeled to tell me I'm way off?

Also, for secondary explosions, is the cargo the best target? An AP shell into the fuel tank? AP to punch a hole, then HE to light her on fire?

So many combinations...

I'm going to test my honey comb theory, it may have been nothing but a graphics thing and nothing else, but I'd like to get down to spending two shells to sink a ship. Cause 20-30 keeps me above water too long...

[zenko]

Hey, is there a way to refill deck gun ammo? I sailed to nearby ports and click refit... it only resupply my torps but not gun ammo... Is there any way to resupply them? thanks..

[Helen Keller]

Yeah, that not getting more deck gun ammo when you refit has been brought up on the forum before, and I personally do not know a way to do it other than starting a new patrol.

BTW, I sailed into an enemy harbor, and after torpedos found their home in anything with a gun, I surfaced to face an untouched tanker, and proceeded with my experiment.


I got screen shots of the whole process if anyone would like me to post it, but here's the run down.


1. Put two rounds of AP into the waterline, each created it's own visible hole. 15 minutes later she was listing heavily to the starbord side.

2. another 30 minutes later I had water washing on her deck.

3. Placed another AP under the water line, slightly in front of the first two. After accelerating time for another 15 minutes, showed no appreciable change in what was happening.

4. The water which was washing over the tanker, gave me the bright idea of putting one in just where the water was on deck, but aim it backwards towards the stern. Nice big hole in the deck, no change in listing after 15 minutes.

5. Began putting a round in every 15 minutes or so, going from the bow to the stern, and watching for listing. Slowly the rear of the ship (just the starbord side) was joining the bow's height in the water.

6. Having now spent roughly 2 or 3 hours in an enemy port surrounded by smoldering wrecks and the broken dreams of countless japanese mariners, I grow frustrated. In rapid succession I fire 15 more rounds in her waterline, slowly circling said tanker. Found out my submarine is magical, can sail through the dock.

7.As I make another pass, an AP round to the center of the tanker on the starboard side causes a massive explosion, and finally putting the tanker out of her misery.




Conclusion:

Further testing required.


argh.

:damn:

[ccruner13]

tankers from my experience are really hardcore. my torps dint make holes

[Helen Keller]

I'll try again on a freighter of more normal dimensions, last one I ran into was a Sampan and one took her down...


Hope someone mods a bigger deck gun at some pont...

[NephilimNexus]

One thing that works nicely is to use the HE rounds on the sides of the ship, but if you happen to see that you're going to sail directly in front of or behind your target, switch to AP real fast and fire one right down the centerline. The AP effectively rips a hole through every component on the ship before stopping, like firing a bullet down a bananna. It does wonders.

[JackChen]

I find using the deck gun a tedious affair. How many shells does it take to take down a ship? It's like searching the universe for a magical constant.

Anyway, it varies widely plus after all, why use a deck gun? I may be tempted to use it after a few torps tore large crazy holes below the waterline and you see the ship still floating merry plus flanking away at 10 knots or more?

[NefariousKoel]

Historically speaking, I'd suspect you only want HE for the deck gun. Certainly for the AA guns.

Unless you plan on taking on a CL or higher, AP should be comparitively crap. And you don't want to outgun a CL (or higher).

[GvKonijnenburg]

I find using the deck gun a tedious affair. How many shells does it take to take down a ship? It's like searching the universe for a magical constant

That's easy: 42

[Sailor Steve]

Why would you want to use AP rounds at all against a freighter? To make 3.5" or 4"-size holes in it? I exclusively use HE ammo against freighters and tankers and I'm not sure that historically subs carried AP ammo at all. In my SH3 careers I always changed the AP rounds for HE.
I've been through this a few times so perhaps I can help. German u-boats used HE only (not even starshells). Apparently US subs had the same semi-armor piercing ammo that the destroyers used. It was not a true AP round, and was called HC (for High Capacity). Its main purpose was for shore bombardment, as it was designed to penetrate concrete. Whether the subs actually carried it is still up in the air, but on another thread a few days ago a poster put up a page from a book which indicated that they indeed did carry some.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108295&highlight=armor+piercing

Read Krupp's post #3. It gives the relevant information.

[NEON DEON]

Why would you want to use AP rounds at all against a freighter? To make 3.5" or 4"-size holes in it? I exclusively use HE ammo against freighters and tankers and I'm not sure that historically subs carried AP ammo at all. In my SH3 careers I always changed the AP rounds for HE.
I've been through this a few times so perhaps I can help. German u-boats used HE only (not even starshells). Apparently US subs had the same semi-armor piercing ammo that the destroyers used. It was not a true AP round, and was called HC (for High Capacity). Its main purpose was for shore bombardment, as it was designed to penetrate concrete. Whether the subs actually carried it is still up in the air, but on another thread a few days ago a poster put up a page from a book which indicated that they indeed did carry some.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108295&highlight=armor+piercing

Read Krupp's post #3. It gives the relevant information.

Steve, I was reading the Nautilus' patrol logs the other day and in one of the action reports was the invasion of Abemama. They reported firing 75 rounds of H C into the japanese positions. However, that was a special mission and they might have been fitted out with H C since they were scheduled to land marines on the beach who might need arty support.

[Helen Keller]

First Douglas Adams reference I've seen in this forum, huzzah!

[Navigator857]

I've seen a few folks posting in reagrds to the HE on ammo and what type would be best for ships. Being assigned to the U.S.S. Iowa for 4 years allowed me to actually be able to use some of the wepaons and ammo that were originally built during WWII. As a QM2 I was on the Bridge for General Quarters, however during Condition 3 Gun Mount Watch (Usually set when close to unfriendly waters or being shadowed by Soviets Destroyers and/or Crusiers) I was in the Number 6 5" 38 Gunmount as Mount Captian. We had HE (High Explosive), AP (Armor Piercing) Star (For Illumination) and Test (Inert) rounds. All rounds with the exception of the Star and Test rounds had "PointDet (Point Detenation) or Prox (Time Set Fuses).

Our training in regards to ship combat dictated that HE rounds would be used on surface targets at more than 1600 yards. All rounds would be alternated between Point Det and Prox for maximum effect (Fires, Electronics and Main deck damage). AP rounds would be used starting at approximately 900 yards and would directed at propulsion, weapons (if present) and bridge. Waterline shots were not taught with the exception of stern shots for rudder and screws. The GMG's (Gunners Mate Guns) would make it a practice to fire a few shots on the bow in order to induce flooding that would be enhanced by the forward movement of the target vessle.

Just my two cents worth. I personally was able to participate in actual ship combat, in regard to the small gunboats in the Persian Gulf, however during NGFS (Naval Gunfire Support) we did engage many shore targets, mostly with the 16" guns, utilizing HI (High Impact) rounds.

I still fire my deck gun in SHIII and now SHIV in the same fashion and to some extent find it somewhat with a familar feel.

[StandingCow]

tankers from my experience are really hardcore. my torps dint make holes

Yea, same thing happened to me earlier.. 3 torps in the back end, no holes, and it didnt sink.. I was out of torps at this point (3 duds and like 5 premature explosions), so I surface, put 15 AP rounds into it.. then dove.. still didn't sink, so I had to go back to port.

[Helen Keller]

I've seen a few folks posting in reagrds to the HE on ammo and what type would be best for ships. Being assigned to the U.S.S. Iowa for 4 years allowed me to actually be able to use some of the wepaons and ammo that were originally built during WWII. As a QM2 I was on the Bridge for General Quarters, however during Condition 3 Gun Mount Watch (Usually set when close to unfriendly waters or being shadowed by Soviets Destroyers and/or Crusiers) I was in the Number 6 5" 38 Gunmount as Mount Captian. We had HE (High Explosive), AP (Armor Piercing) Star (For Illumination) and Test (Inert) rounds. All rounds with the exception of the Star and Test rounds had "PointDet (Point Detenation) or Prox (Time Set Fuses).

Our training in regards to ship combat dictated that HE rounds would be used on surface targets at more than 1600 yards. All rounds would be alternated between Point Det and Prox for maximum effect (Fires, Electronics and Main deck damage). AP rounds would be used starting at approximately 900 yards and would directed at propulsion, weapons (if present) and bridge. Waterline shots were not taught with the exception of stern shots for rudder and screws. The GMG's (Gunners Mate Guns) would make it a practice to fire a few shots on the bow in order to induce flooding that would be enhanced by the forward movement of the target vessle.

Just my two cents worth. I personally was able to participate in actual ship combat, in regard to the small gunboats in the Persian Gulf, however during NGFS (Naval Gunfire Support) we did engage many shore targets, mostly with the 16" guns, utilizing HI (High Impact) rounds.

I still fire my deck gun in SHIII and now SHIV in the same fashion and to some extent find it somewhat with a familar feel.


Could you elaborate on the forward motion of the target increasing flooding?


And wasn't the persian gulf the last active deployment of the Iowa?

An Army boy here, but /salute/ to anyone with service history.

That being said, GO ARMY, BEAT NAVY

[Grothesj2]

Just guessing that if you shoot a ship in the bow, the water rushing against the bow would flow into the ship at considerable force, much more so then a hole in the side of a ship.

[Lukemb]

As average I had to use 20 HE and 5-10 AP on a medium freighter, 5-10 more HE/AP for a large one.

[Sailor Steve]

Navigator857, that's some interesting stuff. Can you verify the AP for the 5"/38. I ask not because I doubt it, since my experience was aboard a destroyer (USS Brinkley Bass, DD-887) and they only let us play with HC, HE and AA rounds, but because I've read some of the literature and don't recall secondary and dual-purpose guns getting actual AP rounds. Of course your experience is a lot more recent than mine.

My real response is that while what type of round is best against ships is a good question, the real question is what types of rounds did the subs carry? Still trying to confirm that one.

[tycho102]

The big passenger liners are interesting. HE's (10) into the berthing areas start some serious fires. When the lifeboats get blown off by the explosions, you're there. AP's (10) into the waterline to sink it.

Easiest 10,000 tons I have come across yet.

[Solonor]

Well, as Navigator is saying here, they switched to AP at 900 yards. I guess that is because at that range the projectile would go at a fairly straight line, thus hitting the belt armor more often, which yields more armor in most naval ships I think. So they would use AP shells for... well, to pierce the thick armor :p

Just thought I would add that, not saying it is 100% correct though.

[Sailor Steve]

Okay, I found an answer. Both the 3"/50 and the 5"/25 used HC (which would translate into the game's AP, I think) and AA. Nothing else.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_3-50_mk10-22.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_5-25_mk10.htm

The 5"/38, on the other hand (thank you Navigator857) used no less than 9 different types of ammunition! These included AP and starshell.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_5-38_mk12.htm