View Full Version : Possible TDC bug (auto and manual)
Been playing all night with various custom missions to look at the TDC and i've found whats either a bug or FADE gone wrong (subtle bug that messes things up without people really noticing!)
Firstly in auto TDC it appears to underestimate the speed of a target by just under 1kt. This means your torpedo shots are going to go aft of where you aim.
Just an example, a **** passing at 90 degrees to you at 1000 yards doing 12 knots the torpedos hit about 3.5 degrees aft of where you're aiming. Ie you aim for the very bow you'll hit somewhere in the first 1/3. Use auto/lock and it'll hit rear 1/3. Aim for the engines/keel and you'll miss.
Only solutions ive found are to either use a spread offset or aim ahead of where you want to hit. Problem with this method is just how far you need to aim varies with targets speed, course, AOB, your torpedo speed and so on.
You can test this yourself by doing the torpedo attack tutorial, aim for a clear obvious part of the target like the flag pole then watch where it hits. Stationary targets should hit spot on, the faster a targer goes the further aft you'll hit.
Now for an issue ive found with manual TDC.
Unless im mistaken the TDC will ALWAYS fire at the centre of the ship regardless of where on it your scope is pointed. It seems the bearing isnt automatically sent to the TDC and it just uses the centre bearing. If there is a MARK button, i cant find it.
The only work around ive found is to combine the torpedo spread dial with the attack map and guesstimate how much you need to offset to hit left/right of centre. Its hardly an exact science though.
Creating a custom mission with a group of 5 boats all heading on a straight line and course you can play with/verify both the above.
Is anyone else experiencing either of these symptoms? Either their bugs, im doing something wrong or much talked about FADE has decided it hates me, activated and causing subtle alterations in my game.
The problem at the moment is its impossible to tell!
Der Teddy Bar
03-24-07, 09:27 PM
I presume that you have opened the torpedo door before firing the torpedo?
Also your scope should not continually update the TDC as that is not how it worked in WWII.
Yep doors open, instant fire.
Scope not updating TDC is fair enough but it then needs a "MARK" button otherwise its impossible to aim at anything other than the centre of the ship.
Auto TDC is definatley out here by just under a knot and manual i have no way of targetting other parts of a ship unless i use the spread offset dial.
submariner
03-24-07, 09:40 PM
Yes, you are correct. I used manual targeting on SH3 and at least the Gyro Angle was displayed at the scope screen ...... but in SH4 the gyro is really hard to read with any precision ..... and since the scope only seems to 'mark' a ship when locked .... there seems to be a disconnect between scope and gyro angle.
I was very good at SH3 manual targeting, but on SH4 I consistently miss aft .... just as you describe.
I'm very dissapointed with implementation of the tdc & gyro in SH4 ..... once you had the gyro set in SH3 you could easily fire multiple quick shots at a convoy by point and shoot ...... I can't do this in SH4 unless I fiddle with the 'lock' or red button or tube select between shots ?
If thats true then the only way to target different parts of a ship in manual will be by using the spread button - cant imagine thats through design.
Add that to faulty TDC speed measuring in auto mode and targeting is nowhere near as nice as SH3.
Have you guys considered that the TDC and aiming procedure were different in the USN and Kriegsmarine?
Yes.
But the auto bug is nothing to do with that. Its a software error.
The lack of manual aiming change is due to the lack of any sort of mark button which they did have.
Neither of these problems are systems being misunderstood - they both look like software limitations in the game.
NefariousKoel
03-25-07, 11:46 AM
I've noticed on both manual and automatic that a LOT of my shots are missing a ways aft. Perhaps gnirts has hit on something here. Oh, and I open my tube door well before firing.
Do what i did, create some custom missions.
In the first have a stationary ship at 1000yds and test.
Second mission have ships passing 90 degrees to your path closest 1000 yards and have the ships doing 5kts and try it.
Then alter that mission so theyre doing 10kts, retry, then 15kts, retry and so on.
Stationary it hits dead on, the others its missing aft.
(Auto TDC anyway, speed entry for manual TDC works fine but can only target middle of ships. In manual you can verify your solution by using the attack map and check it matches actual movement. Not possible in auto though).
Ducimus
03-25-07, 12:19 PM
Only thing i've been able to discern so far, is the torpedo tube doors take forever to open. You issue the command, but it doesnt acutally happen for a few long agonizing seconds later. Not a big deal with your first shot, but a 2nd or 3rd shot and it becomes an issue. My assumption is crew effiecency and management has a role in this.
Anyway, my solution for this delay that has worked for me, has been using the spread angle. If the target is going from right to left, ill set the spread angle about 4 or 5 degrees left (assuming im in close, less degrees if further out) to compensate for the delay. Seems to work fine. I have to admit though, this TDC is going to take ALOT of getting used to, and it does feel like it might have a quirk or two in it somewhere, but i can't quite put my finger on it.
edit:
Also keep in mind its ENTIRELY possible there's an old bug from SH3 that has carried over into SH4. It deals with the torpedo speed selection switch and gyro angle. When changing from steam to electrics (or vice versa), the torpedo speed didnt acutally update even though the selector switch would change to reflect the torpedo being used. You had to click on the speed switch anyway or the gyro woudn't update.
I just open the door of my tube some 30 seconds before taking shot. The misjudged TDC screw up to need spread, last thing i need is to add another factor to it.
This definately isnt an issue with torp speed miscalculated, if that was the case the torpedos would miss by FAR more than they actually are for me.
All of you are wrong. The bearing of the scope/TBT is transmitted the moment you transmit the other data, so you CAN aim with the sight. Don't "lock" the target, that's BS anyway. True, iRL there was a specific "Mark" button for bearing updates, and the lack of one in-game is anoying, but the above is a work-around.
(Now, someone reported you would need to re-enter all three datas for the bearing to update, but I surely had the impression it's enough to re-enter ("send") one information again, like speed for example - and I think I'm right. Anything else wouldn't make sense)
I've noticed on both manual and automatic that a LOT of my shots are missing a ways aft. Perhaps gnirts has hit on something here. Oh, and I open my tube door well before firing.
Confirmed....always aft.
RedHammer
03-25-07, 12:41 PM
I have the same problem with SH3 in the torpedo training mission there, torpedoes go waaaaaaaaaay behind and misses by several hundred metres.
And when I take a look at the TDC in the attack map, I find out, despite of very good measures, that the torpedoes are aimed waay back :S
Try this in Attack map in SH4, get a perfect solution, then take a look at your attack map, if you find the torpedo to hit a little too far behind, use the spread feature to put it a little more ahead. Hence, you may hit the ship exactly where you want to. Works for me on stationary targets. Note: I haven`t tried this on moving targets as I cannot get a good speed solution by obvious reasons.
S! to all
Your Friend in the Pacific
RH
(Now, someone reported you would need to re-enter all three datas for the bearing to update, but I surely had the impression it's enough to re-enter ("send") one information again, like speed for example - and I think I'm right. Anything else wouldn't make sense)
So point at right part of ship, then enter speed or something into TDC again and fire immediately should send new bearing?
Going to test this now.
Observer
03-25-07, 01:15 PM
(Now, someone reported you would need to re-enter all three datas for the bearing to update, but I surely had the impression it's enough to re-enter ("send") one information again, like speed for example - and I think I'm right. Anything else wouldn't make sense)
So point at right part of ship, then enter speed or something into TDC again and fire immediately should send new bearing?
Going to test this now.
I prefer range, but I suppose speed will work (just hit the button to send it to the TDC. No need to recalculate range every time This will update firing bearing and gyro angle). This is how I do it to aim for specific parts of the ship on a non-maneuvering target. For maneuvering targets, you really should use the spread angle as this is how it was really done.
Faamecanic
03-25-07, 01:36 PM
I've noticed on both manual and automatic that a LOT of my shots are missing a ways aft. Perhaps gnirts has hit on something here. Oh, and I open my tube door well before firing.
YEP.... noticed this to while shooting 6 torps at 2 LARGE passenger lines. All 6 shots went aft of the liners. I was all of .4 miles from them. I think the error was exaggerated by the fact they were steaming off at 21kts.
Also..is there anyway to open ALL the bloody torp doors at once? I seem to only be able to open my first one. If I open one door, and change tubes and hit Q it closes the first door....
Sadly its only 1 door at a time so in reality its about 10-15 seconds between shots by the time you fire, switch, enter spread data, open doors, check and shoot.
Now for an issue ive found with manual TDC.
Unless im mistaken the TDC will ALWAYS fire at the centre of the ship regardless of where on it your scope is pointed. It seems the bearing isnt automatically sent to the TDC and it just uses the centre bearing.
I don't have the game, but this scares the hell out of me, can somone please do some experiments to determine if this is in fact happening and post the results?
mookiemookie
03-25-07, 03:06 PM
I came searching the forum to see if anyone else was having this problem. Good to see it's not just me! I know I'm no dummy, and I'm opening the doors. I always miss aft though.
So the workaround is to use the spread dial to "lead your target" a few degrees?
Just done some more tests and it appears you need to send range to TDC. Didn't work with AOB or speed for me but entering range into TDC and hitting commit does aim where my scope is pointed.
I came searching the forum to see if anyone else was having this problem. Good to see it's not just me! I know I'm no dummy, and I'm opening the doors. I always miss aft though.
So the workaround is to use the spread dial to "lead your target" a few degrees?
Assuming you use auto TDC, in which case yes you can use spread or just visually aim a bit in front of where you want to hit
submariner
03-25-07, 03:20 PM
I've played around with this a little bit since my last post, using map contacts 'ON' and setting up shots in the training school.
The Pos-Keeper only 'marks' to a new target 'bearing' if fed position data from sonar, radar, or the RANGE dial ....... it ignores scope bearing when fed SPEED or AOB - it will just change the gyro-angle to the currently tracked target (last 'mark') for SPEED or AOB update.
The fired torpedo usually hits the white 'tracking X' on the attack map plot.
I think the aft shot problem may be due to a slight delay when the torp is fired, possibly something to do with the tube door not open fully yet. I have been shooting right after opening the tube. So the gyro is a little aft ... which will make a big difference in 1200 yard shots .... it may not be a software bug.
But the range is way off as calculated by the stadimeter !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So for multiple quick shots at different targets you can do one of two things:
1. Torp away ..... then rotate scope to new target ..... click RANGE feed button..... this will change the torpedo gyro based on the new scope bearing while keeping the same range ..... the speed is probably the same .... just need to also update AOB for the new target (does not auto change with the new scope bearing).
This is kind of slow .... plus you have to select a new tube and open the tube door.
2. The other way, set up to about 90 degrees to target path .... manually input RANGE to the path (with scope at 0 degrees), set SPEED as usual, and set AOB to 90 ...... DO NOT TURN ON THE Pos-Keeper. This will fire any torp straight ahead but offset by the proper gyro-angle for any ship at 0 (typically 5-20 degrees lead).
So you can just sit there and fire torps as your target(s) point(s) cross 0 degrees on the scope.
You can verify the above using the attack map with 'show contacts' ON.
------------------
I don't like to use 'LOCK' ...... Germans or US or Japanese did not have magic 'LOCK' buttons.
The range dial is a pain ..... when I try to set manually by rotating the ring .... it locks and will not go past 1100 yards !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Stad is way off.
I guess I will not get 1,000,000 tons in the Pacific Theater.
In SH3 I played on 100% for 41 patrols during the war (died about 12 times but did not restart). I did get one battleship near the end of the war and two liners. I had one 100,000 patrol. It took me all 2 years since SH3 came out to get through the game playing a few times per week for a few hours on avarage (only went through the whole war ONCE!).
NonWonderDog
03-25-07, 03:38 PM
The range dial works correctly, and I like that. You don't set the range, you set the mast height on the outer dial. The inner range dial is set with the stadimeter. You don't even have to push the identify button for each target anymore, just set the mast height manually.
The BIG HUGE ANNOYING PAINFUL problem is that the TDC and stadimeter only work if there's a ship in the crosshair--and then they automatically target the center of the ship. I should be able to target anything I want, including but not limited to open ocean, and the stadimeter button should work whenever I push it. The periscope and TDC should have absolutely no idea if I'm aiming at anything if I'm using the manual mode.
The TDC in the sim does not get its bearing from the periscope, but from the bearing to whatever ship the periscope magically knows about. While I understand that the captain is calling out the bearing angle and isn't limited to whatever the periscope says, I'm the captain, and I should be able to call out whatever angle I want.
Its definately not delay due to opening doors/firing causing auto TDC to miss after with me.
Doors opened for 30-60 seconds before and still misses by same amount.
Having done more playing im sure its using slightly too low a speed in the TDC. Just wasted more hours on it.
Manual DOES work if you just click to send range to TDC after placing cursor where you want to hit on the target so at least that fixes that issue. You can verify this again by playing with a stationary target and looking at attack map to see where green line and white X appear. Ive got that working 100% of the time now.
Its only auto TDC it seems thats causing aft shots now, you can aim them but they miss aiming point:)
DJSatane
03-25-07, 03:52 PM
The bearing of the scope/TBT is transmitted the moment you transmit the other data, so you CAN aim with the sight. Don't "lock" the target, that's BS anyway. True, iRL there was a specific "Mark" button for bearing updates, and the lack of one in-game is anoying, but the above is a work-around.
(Now, someone reported you would need to re-enter all three datas for the bearing to update, but I surely had the impression it's enough to re-enter ("send") one information again, like speed for example - and I think I'm right. Anything else wouldn't make sense)
Yes, there is a big flag in SH4, because of this you cannot set a nice simple point to shoot at whatever bearing you looking in a simple way. You have to each time click send data to tdc in stadimeter, aob and speed... otherwise it *WILL NOT* use the bearing you looking at in periscope. This is very annoying, I wish you could click some button so that TDC always uses the bearing you looking at in periscope so that you would have to reenter each section just for the solution to use current bearing of view. We need at least a button mark or send all, or way to turn on tdc update basedon bearing of view all the time. This really makes manual tdc tiresome and annoying for me.
Having just played with it im pretty sure you ONLY need to click send range to send a mark to TDC. AOB and Speed didnt do anything but if i just move cursor, send range it seems to update and work.
For now i think im going to use that as a makeshift "MARK" button.
NefariousKoel
03-25-07, 04:19 PM
OK.. I tried a couple things.
Something is definitely off. Here's what I've found that works when fooling around shooting that Mogami at 9kts:
Open tube, set torpedo settings, input range, fire. This would technically still put my fish near the stern or on an aft miss.
For the settings I've found that adding 1 and more likely 2 knots to the target's actual speed helps quite a bit.
Raising the speed +1kt gave me the first hit at center and the last 3 in the aft quarter.
Raising the speed 2kts gave me a hit in the fore, etc. These were all locked on target with no spread.
The other way I tried was seeing how far I should lead my angle spread to achieve the same results. The target was heading right.
When I used +9 deg. right angle it struck under the forward gun area.
When I used +5 deg. right spread angle, the torpedo hit it almost dead center.
With +3 deg. hit it in the aft quarter.
Lastly, +0 degree angle struck the very stern and almost missed.
I'm not sure which 'workaround' will be my one of choice but I'll play with them a bit more and see which is more reliable.
Just remember with any of the workarounds distance, its total speed and other factors will affect.
Sadly there isnt one key value to adjust that works everywhere.
I got good results with 3.5 degree spread to bow for 12kts/1200yds and basing things off that.
Having just played with it im pretty sure you ONLY need to click send range to send a mark to TDC. AOB and Speed didnt do anything but if i just move cursor, send range it seems to update and work.
For now i think im going to use that as a makeshift "MARK" button.
Hm, sorry for the wrong info before. I was pretty sure it didn't matter what data to send again. So it is range. Thanks for sharing!
shawnyp420
03-25-07, 07:18 PM
are you talking about the auto-solution?? I've found that the only real way to score a center hit is by using the spread angle.
NefariousKoel
03-25-07, 08:04 PM
are you talking about the auto-solution?? I've found that the only real way to score a center hit is by using the spread angle.
Yes. Actually, we're talking about both Auto and Manual. They have the same issue.
I just sunk a Kongo Battleship in my campaign using manual inputs. It was travelling at 12kts and I was at around 1000 yds. I made a spread from +10 deg. to +3 deg. and every single one hit. Broke her back too.
It does vary, however, depending on speed mostly from what I've seen. Later, I fired a spread of 3 fish at a freighter spaced from +9 deg to +3 deg and only the +3 struck, though my +5 just barely missed it's bow.
Maybe I should go back to adding 1 or 2 knots to their speed and see how that works out.
One thing that makes me wonder, however...
I've noticed that angles in the game are off by slightly over 1 degree.
For instance... after installing the bearing protractor someone imported from SH3 I noticed it was slightly over 1 degree off when following my nav waypoints. I first thought it might be a mod error, however when I select a heading on the dial, my crew reports the new heading but the dialog box is always off by 1 degree. This threw up a warning flag.
Here's a couple screenshots of me following a waypoint and the offset bearing indicator:
http://aycu20.webshots.com/image/13819/2003360485916948393_rs.jpg
http://aycu27.webshots.com/image/14266/2003398779311115557_rs.jpg
Hopefully we can help the devs find the issue.
Rykaird
03-25-07, 08:17 PM
I'm also having a difference between stadimeter and measured distances. On a stationary target at around 600 yards on the nav map, stadimeter will say 700+. Not sure of the cause.
The torp school clearly shows the speed issue. If I add 2.5 knots I hit her consistently dead center, otherwise well aft.
Click the update status button in the TDC display and your shots will be moch more accurate. You may have to do it several times when aiming over a long period.
Doors:
While setting up the attack I pre-open ALL the doors I intend to use. You can also use this time to set torpedo data (speed, depth, and spread for each tube. Click on each tube, wait for the door open message, open the other doors, using the last door opened to fire the first shot and fire your other tubes. Your shots will cycle much faster. It appears your close doors command cycle is not in effect until the tube is fired?
-Pv-
Just tried a lot with manual TDC and found no real issues with speed or aiming, now i've worked out that sending range also sends bearing its fine for me, spread also works.
The main bug appears to be in auto TDC and its entering of speed.
As for opening all doors you intend to use, general consensus so far is you cant do it in the game,opening a door shuts the others.
Spectre-63
03-26-07, 12:11 AM
Just a thought: is it possible that, in their rush to add Imperial measurements, they missed a conversion somewhere along the way? That would certainly account for my ranges being about 1/3rd short and all the problems with automatic targeting hitting behind the point of aim.
Chester_Duff
03-26-07, 12:27 AM
Not too sure if this is related being a noob and all but there also be a bug with the attack navigational map screen for the gato class sub. With the S class, the torpedo path was displayed and you could judge the compensation for always missing aft by changing the angle either to the left or right. Now in the Gato, there is no path shown and you have to guess how much an effect the changing of the angle has on it. Or maybe I'm missing something.....
Crosseye76
03-26-07, 12:59 AM
Firstly in auto TDC it appears to underestimate the speed of a target by just under 1kt. This means your torpedo shots are going to go aft of where you aim.
Just an example, a **** passing at 90 degrees to you at 1000 yards doing 12 knots the torpedos hit about 3.5 degrees aft of where you're aiming. Ie you aim for the very bow you'll hit somewhere in the first 1/3. Use auto/lock and it'll hit rear 1/3. Aim for the engines/keel and you'll miss.
I've noticed this also.
oblivionenigma
03-26-07, 01:57 AM
Thank you for confirming this for me. I've been getting frustrated by the fact that even with auto, I can never hit anything right. It's always an aft hit (especially if it's a fast target) no matter how far forward I aim... and that aft hit rarely has the intended effect :\
Immacolata
03-26-07, 02:54 AM
Nice to see. I've noticed that my fish often hit the aft of the ships, when they not sail behind simply. I last night noticed the stadimeter problem as well. The height I measure is too short compared to the physical distance on the map.
For patch 1.2 I would like this fixed as first priority to any cosmetic changes :)
NefariousKoel
03-26-07, 03:39 AM
Speed problem. The TDC speed calculation is off.
Tobowsi
03-26-07, 11:25 PM
The auto TDC hitting way aft problem seems a lot worse for me when I have the torp speed on high. When I have it on low, the fish hits fairly close to where I have the crosshairs when I fire (yes, I open the tube doors beforehand in case you were wondering). However, when the speed is set on high, I can aim even in front of the target, as far forward as I can and still see the triangle indicating a solution, and I'm lucky if I hit the aft 1/3 of the ship, if it hits at all. (The only time I bother with using the high speed anymore is with a completely stationary target)
Maybe sometime I might time some shots on low and high with a known distance and see if the torps are really travelling at their advertised speeds of 31 and 46 knots. Maybe the problem is something simple like the TDC computing a solution based on a speed of 46 knots and the reused code has the torpedo travel at high at the old "fast" speed of 44, so the torpedo takes longer to get there than expected and therefore hits aft.
NefariousKoel
03-26-07, 11:30 PM
After trying a few workarounds 'til this gets patched, I've been using this:
1)You know the target speed. Add 2.5 knots onto it in the TDC.
2) Send a Range input in. Preferrably take an AoB and Stadi reading (in that order) but if in a hurry such as a salvo, then go ahead and just hit the input button for range.
3) Fire already dammit!
Jungman
03-26-07, 11:45 PM
The auto TDC hitting way aft problem seems a lot worse for me when I have the torp speed on high. When I have it on low, the fish hits fairly close to where I have the crosshairs when I fire (yes, I open the tube doors beforehand in case you were wondering). However, when the speed is set on high, I can aim even in front of the target, as far forward as I can and still see the triangle indicating a solution, and I'm lucky if I hit the aft 1/3 of the ship, if it hits at all. (The only time I bother with using the high speed anymore is with a completely stationary target)
Maybe sometime I might time some shots on low and high with a known distance and see if the torps are really travelling at their advertised speeds of 31 and 46 knots. Maybe the problem is something simple like the TDC computing a solution based on a speed of 46 knots and the reused code has the torpedo travel at high at the old "fast" speed of 44, so the torpedo takes longer to get there than expected and therefore hits aft.
Yes. I agree. I am going to check the actual hex data to see what they are set for. In SH3 one of the old 'cold' Electric torps were actual set 2 knots slow...hitting in the aft. It was set for 28 knots while in the game it was claimed to be 30 knots. I made a big fuss about, but no one really took it seriously.
Look for the discussion with Elainaba IIRC about the old slow cold Electric speed and range.
Jungman
03-27-07, 01:22 AM
Sorry for the extended post.
Update:
The real hex values are being used for a Mark 14 at 31 and 46 knots (maybe range is off, not a big deal 4100 and 8200 yards). But I see that there is new stuff in the Torpedo_US.sim file.
There is a true magnetic influence explosion range (Der Tedy Bar would like this NYGM damage -a hit below really does sink them better than twice as many in the side contact) of 5.5 feet and a chance to set the dud rate...now if it is a dud, it could maybe vary in angle but definetly there is a listing of Dud Reduction Speed of 34. As if it is deemed a dud, then instead of not only a premature/weak damage explosion, it could just run at a slower rate of 34 instead of 46 knots.
Have you tried using "No Dud Torp" setting to see if this fixes the problem?
Could be a game feature -and I cannot make sense of the hex data for the Dud chance.
Look how bad the failure rate was in this article, best one on the subject I have seen:
http://www.historynet.com/air_sea/naval_weaponry/3037866.html?page=1&c=y
Immacolata
03-27-07, 06:40 AM
Good find! I noticed today (with duds) that even the most perfect of setup shots missed and missed. But another similiar setup shot hit everytime, and in the middle.
I used manual TDC so my conclusions are now somewhat muddled. IF it is indeed duds that have more "duddy ways to dud" now, ie. different speed, changed detonation range, and possibly damage too, then we might hold onto our horses before we report a bug on the TDC. At least for manual.
But its still a bug IMO that you cannot "aim" your shot without locking to a target. Should be possible.
Also the stadimeter, is it inaccurate or is it us that are not accurate? I read in the manual that they made the nav map ruler imprecise on purpose. But I am not sure how that affects the game and the range you measure with the ruler.
Lawndart
03-27-07, 07:57 PM
Could the experaince level of your crew have anything to do with it? Perhaps another undocmented side effect of inexperianced crew?
When I break lock and aim at a point on the ship I get all my hits spot on but BB tend to adjust speed when they know your their...
But I di have very mixed results when I use fast shot, results are never what I expect.
akdavis
03-27-07, 08:15 PM
Edit: actually already discussed here, as well. Nevermind. :)
The problem seems to have been isolated. High speed Mk. 14s are running some 25% below the speed TDC uses to calculate gyro angles. Please see here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=109272&page=4
May actually be an undocumented and poorly implemented "feature."
don1reed
03-28-07, 04:05 AM
I don't have the game yet, either; however, reading about the "late" arriving torps gave me a thought about what I used to do playing the orig SH...
My Electronics-Approach Off. (calculator)
asin (( target speed / torpedo speed) x sin AOB ) = Offset Angle of Collision, or, how much to lead the target. Worked every time.
This is now being discussed in a few threads but this one is linked off the bugzilla site so i'll update here.
it DOESN'T appear to be TDC related. Mk14 and 23 torpedos travelling at high speed do not travel at the speed they should do. Instead of 46kts or so they're travelling at 35-36kts. This means the torpedos arrive late and therefore hit behind where they're aimed.
Another telltale is the TDC attack map - look at the time it says for torpedo to hit, fire one and time it, you'll find they arrive later.
SLOW speed appears not to be affected by this.
elanaiba
03-30-07, 11:43 AM
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7201/radiomescv7.jpg
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7564/danforumuy7.gif
Burnspot
03-30-07, 12:06 PM
Now that's a new spin on acknowledging a bug. :D Perfect format for this game! :rock:
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7201/radiomescv7.jpg
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7564/danforumuy7.gif
Safe-Keeper
03-30-07, 12:13 PM
:rotfl:
I love you, Ubi:up:!
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7201/radiomescv7.jpg
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7564/danforumuy7.gif
that figures, i thought those blasted MK-14's were worthless. my torp crews have been taking them apart right and left trying to figure it out. them BUORD people are a crazy bunch.
message recieved!
OddjobXL
03-30-07, 12:31 PM
How does anyone not love these guys? Nailed it. Even their bugs are historically accurate!
Crosseye76
03-30-07, 12:38 PM
:up:
E.Hartmann
03-30-07, 12:41 PM
Too funny!!!
oritpro
03-30-07, 12:57 PM
Classy response, I like it.
Nonetheless, I have given up on the game...for now....
Between Stalker and Test Drive Unlimited I have plenty of entertainment software to keep me busy until SHIV is fixed.
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7201/radiomescv7.jpg
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7564/danforumuy7.gif
Very classy response from the Devs, to be sure. However, I was wondering if anyone else was noticing the same issue I'm having.
When I put the scope over a ship, the triangle targetter doesn't show up until I'm almost amidships from the bow, maybe a third of the way over the ship.
_
| |
___________|_|____________
|________________________/
--------------------/\
That's where the targetter starts for me. So to make a shot at the bow is somewhat difficult if you go by the triangle. I was thinking that since the torpedoes are trailing after, it seems that maybe the mesh/area/programming for side of a ship is a bit off, like shifted over? So the "targeting mesh" for a ship is actually shifted backward X yards, so the point where my targetter is showing is the front edge of the "mesh". Does that make sense?
elite_hunter_sh3
03-30-07, 02:20 PM
keep up the good work devs.:up:
Those guys really care about the sim and us. They try to make the best of the situation, I like this spirit! :up:
FoddaUK
03-30-07, 03:15 PM
LOL! I thought it was me for ages... Then I thought it was a bug but nobody seemd to know what I was talking about. For the last few days I've been following this thread with interest. Just love the dev's response, makes me love the game again.
Now that I have my new PC (Core2Duo 2600, 8800GTX, 2GB DDR2 matched RAM :D :D ) I ought to be able to turn everything on and get some decent graphics.
Vista is being a pain though, all the things I need to be an administrator to do, it says I'm not, even though I can see I am in the settings... New PCs, you gotta love 'em, and hate 'em all at the same time. :-?
Cakewalk
03-30-07, 03:38 PM
Aha... I'll make note of it in my log.:D :up:
It's encouraging to see communication from the dev team. I always feel that this sort of back-and-forth should be increased, so I thank Dan for his efforts. They are obviously working to solve problems affecting us all.
Immacolata
03-30-07, 04:06 PM
Hehe, that kind of communication RAISES THE SPIRITS OF THE CREW :)
Half a beer each for the crew tonight!
GakunGak
03-30-07, 04:16 PM
Hehe, that kind of communication RAISES THE SPIRITS OF THE CREW :)
Half a beer each for the crew tonight!
It's a long way to Tiperary,
it's a loong waaay:()1: :()1: :()1: :()1: :()1:
Capt Wilhelm Von Dorchmar
03-30-07, 04:40 PM
Con found it man, I think those dev chaps have got it!!!!!!!!
WoW, What a great addition to this already remarkable series. Even with the few problems, What a great Sim. :up: :lol:
stuntcow
03-30-07, 05:02 PM
They care....They really do!!!!!! Yeah, three cheers for the Dev team...
Snakeeyes
03-30-07, 06:05 PM
You can say what you want about the publisher releasing SHIV way too soon but you've got to love the guys in the trenches!
Torpex752
03-30-07, 06:12 PM
Bravo Zulu guys! (I sure am glad that I am driving that old, broken down S-Boat with her MK-10 fish!) :D
I laugh as I hit everything I aim at! :arrgh!:
:rotfl:
Frank
:cool:
Zengaze
03-30-07, 06:38 PM
That is an A1 response :up: If the fact that the dev took the time to come here to acknowledge faults and promise solutions doesn't inspire confidence in the team then i think those who growl need to be introduced to the art of meditation. hip hip hooray :rock:
RedHammer
03-30-07, 06:45 PM
My ship has sunk but will be recovered soon..
Ok.. This is last time I say this: UBI, please fix this game so I can have a REAL crank at it. The effects and graphics are just.. whoa. So actually being able to determine speed without leaving the periscope would be.. yeah I donno what to say, it`s the only thing I need now?
S! to all
Your friend in the Pacific
RH
Shipwreck
03-30-07, 07:02 PM
:up: very cool :D
SW
Schultzy
03-30-07, 07:44 PM
Class :up:
clayton
03-30-07, 07:51 PM
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7201/radiomescv7.jpg
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7564/danforumuy7.gif
Brilliant! :up:
MONOLITH
03-30-07, 07:55 PM
Bravo Dan. :up:
Sulikate
03-30-07, 08:13 PM
Funny one:rotfl::rotfl:
ps: nice way to admit a bug:lol:
LargeSlowTarget
03-30-07, 10:19 PM
I read here about the Mark-14 missing astern - but I'm skippering an old S-class sub and have fired Mark-10s at a stationary target at bearing 0, AoB 90 and range 600 and missed astern as well... Now I'm wondering - is it my fault or...?
Not had misses off ANY torpedos in auto or manual TDC for stationary targets - they all hit exactly where i want.
Must have fired 150+ shots in various tests and not had an issue (whereas ALL my moving target shots with fast mode torps go aft)
GakunGak
03-31-07, 03:12 AM
Not had misses off ANY torpedos in auto or manual TDC for stationary targets - they all hit exactly where i want.
Must have fired 150+ shots in various tests and not had an issue (whereas ALL my moving target shots with fast mode torps go aft)
Maybe you just need to enable dud torpedo in the realism option of the game...:hmm:
Ducimus
03-31-07, 05:16 AM
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7201/radiomescv7.jpg
LOL, and here i was about to post just that. I figured out what the problem is (or so i think i have).
It seems to be related to the TDC bug that exists in SH3, only in reverse. To reiterate, heres a blurb about SH3's TDC bug.
here is a *nasty* stock sh3 bug that will cause misses in certain situations if switching between different types of torpedoes with differing speeds. In order to protect against this bug, you MUST click the TORPEDO SPEED switch EVEN IF that selected torpedo only has one speed setting after you select the torpedo. This will update the gyro with the new torpedo speed.
EXAMPLE: If you have Tube #1 selected with a Type I Steam Torpedo set to FAST (i.e. 44 knots), the gyro will set accordingly for the speed of the torpedo to correctly lead the target. If you then switch to Tube #3 containing a Type III Electric Torpedo that only has one speed setting (i.e. SLOW of 30 knots), the gyro WILL NOT BE UPDATED to reflect the slower torpedo speed UNLESS THE TORPEDO SPEED SWITCH is clicked resulting in a probable missed shot.
SH4's rendition of this is the exact opposite. What's basically happening is when you change torpedo speeds, the gyro isn't being updated. So it will "intentionally" shoot behind the target because its going faster then what it thinks. Since the bug is working in the inverse of SH3's version of it, clicking on the torpedo speed switch wont reslove it, - it causes it.
Im fairly sure now the above is incorrect.
Its simply that the torpedos on fast mode travel 10kts slower than they should.
TDC calculations are correct if you do the maths to work out travel time assuming a 46kt torpedo. However as they do nearer 36 it hits aft or misses totally.
Ducimus
03-31-07, 01:18 PM
Its simply that the torpedos on fast mode travel 10kts slower than they should.
Hmmm. Well i was on the assumption that torpedos were working as they should (speed wise). Simple way to find out. Time to crack open the torpedo sim file.
elanaiba
03-31-07, 01:21 PM
:|\\
Ducimus
03-31-07, 01:37 PM
On the assumption that most of us are using the MK14 torpedo;, id have to conclude that the torpedo speed is fine.
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/mk14.jpg
Historical specs here (matchs whats in game):
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_WWII.htm
PeriscopeDepth
03-31-07, 03:08 PM
Several folks here have done exhaustive testing. And the devs basically acknowledged their testing. Yeah, that's what the sim file seems to say... But everything else indicates that it IS a speed problem.
PD
akdavis
03-31-07, 04:25 PM
On the assumption that most of us are using the MK14 torpedo;, id have to conclude that the torpedo speed is fine.
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/mk14.jpg
Historical specs here (matchs whats in game):
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_WWII.htm
That fact that the torpedos are not travelling at that speed is what we call a bug. ;)
On the assumption that most of us are using the MK14 torpedo;, id have to conclude that the torpedo speed is fine.
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/mk14.jpg
Historical specs here (matchs whats in game):
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_WWII.htm
Yes thats what it SHOULD be travelling at. However it doesnt - its near 10kts slower. Simple test, launch at a target in a quick mission, time it and work out the speed. It should be 46kts but its nearer 36kts.
DirtyHarry3033
03-31-07, 06:59 PM
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7201/radiomescv7.jpg
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7564/danforumuy7.gif
FROM: USS TAUTOG
TO: ELANAIBA, COMSUBPAC
DATE: 31 MARCH 2007
ACKNOWLEDGE MSG RECEIVED X CONFIRM BUORD FINDINGS RE: HI SPEED SETTING X EAGERLY AWAIT REPLACEMENT TORPS X CREW SEND APPRECIATION EFFORTS COMSUBPAC AND BUORD X GOOD HUNTING X
SIGNED CO USS TAUTOG
Jungman
03-31-07, 07:37 PM
Any changes made to .sim for any torpedo speed is not reflected in game.
In case anyone wanted to try itout. I did and they still, all of them run at the same speed. As if the EXE is not reading that part of the .sim file.
Ducimus
03-31-07, 08:52 PM
Any changes made to .sim for any torpedo speed is not reflected in game.
That's all the proof one needs right there. Ok so its the torpedo speed. However, its not like a gyro angle not updating has never existed in the SH series. It still exists in Sh3, so its not much of a stretch to assume the same problem (in whatever form) exists in SH4 since its bult upon SH3 to begin with.
Two people can play that game.
What game?
edit:
Oh joy, one sigfile says " Supporting Iran against American warmongering." Another says, " Supporting America against Iran's warmongering." as a clear counter to the first. Christ, is it so hard to leave your damn politics out of a game forum people?
Jimbuna
04-01-07, 04:12 AM
On the assumption that most of us are using the MK14 torpedo;, id have to conclude that the torpedo speed is fine.
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/mk14.jpg
Historical specs here (matchs whats in game):
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_WWII.htm
Yes thats what it SHOULD be travelling at. However it doesnt - its near 10kts slower. Simple test, launch at a target in a quick mission, time it and work out the speed. It should be 46kts but its nearer 36kts.
I thought it was nearer 32knts but hey, what the heck, it's def slooooower :up:
bruschi sauro
04-01-07, 03:21 PM
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7201/radiomescv7.jpg
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7564/danforumuy7.gif
ok. when the 1.2 patch?
Jungman
04-01-07, 05:41 PM
Any changes made to .sim for any torpedo speed is not reflected in game.
That's all the proof one needs right there. Ok so its the torpedo speed. However, its not like a gyro angle not updating has never existed in the SH series. It still exists in Sh3, so its not much of a stretch to assume the same problem (in whatever form) exists in SH4 since its bult upon SH3 to begin with.
Two people can play that game.
What game?
edit:
Oh joy, one sigfile says " Supporting Iran against American warmongering." Another says, " Supporting America against Iran's warmongering." as a clear counter to the first. Christ, is it so hard to leave your damn politics out of a game forum people?
Sure, I did remove my signature as a counter to his. Now I would hope he would do the same. :roll: Nothing is more irratating than a bloke pissing about his hatred for America. Britain just had 15 RN officiers taken hostage...Iran threatens to Nuke Israel... Iran is another Hitler want to be. Live there in Iran and see how life is, if you want Islamic Fascism to control the world, I do not.
I removed my signature against his; I would hope he respectfully does the same. I am not here to spew politics, but if he is going to do it, I will in return. We, the USA did not run away from a fight when Hilter was trying to conquer the world, or any other tyrrants. Stalin Communist USSR...Imperial Japan...yeah we are trying to defend the world for it to be safe. The news media is so biased against America, but in those old dead regiems those same media types would had been shot for speaking out against them.
Maybe he can just fly the Iranian flag in his signature only and leave it at that. Funny for someone who lives in the UK.
Dustyboats
04-02-07, 08:37 AM
I hope I'm in the right place?
I see that most of you on this thread have a display on your Attack Map of targets etc. Mine is absolutely blank apart from the "tadpole" of my boat. This is in all modes of play.
Any thoughts chaps?????.....I am patched up to 1.1....Dusty
Processor 2.13gigahertz Intel Core 2 Duo.
Memory 3072 megabytes
Hard Drive (with SH4 loaded)667.15 Free Space
Main Cct Board ASUSTek. Bus clock 66 megahertz
All this on an HP Media Center
P.S. Please reply in "Beginner Computing Speak"...Ta!
GakunGak
04-02-07, 10:54 AM
I hope I'm in the right place?
I see that most of you on this thread have a display on your Attack Map of targets etc. Mine is absolutely blank apart from the "tadpole" of my boat. This is in all modes of play.
Any thoughts chaps?????.....I am patched up to 1.1....Dusty
Processor 2.13gigahertz Intel Core 2 Duo.
Memory 3072 megabytes
Hard Drive (with SH4 loaded)667.15 Free Space
Main Cct Board ASUSTek. Bus clock 66 megahertz
All this on an HP Media Center
P.S. Please reply in "Beginner Computing Speak"...Ta!
You missed your graphics/video card...
Is it nVidia, ATI? What number, drivers version???
Strongly recommended:
1. Update latest drivers for your card
2. Turn off some special effects in game options...:88)
Dustyboats
04-03-07, 06:02 AM
I hope I'm in the right place?
I see that most of you on this thread have a display on your Attack Map of targets etc. Mine is absolutely blank apart from the "tadpole" of my boat. This is in all modes of play.
Any thoughts chaps?????.....I am patched up to 1.1....Dusty
Processor 2.13gigahertz Intel Core 2 Duo.
Memory 3072 megabytes
Hard Drive (with SH4 loaded)667.15 Free Space
Main Cct Board ASUSTek. Bus clock 66 megahertz
All this on an HP Media Center
P.S. Please reply in "Beginner Computing Speak"...Ta!
You missed your graphics/video card...
Is it nVidia, ATI? What number, drivers version???
Strongly recommended:
1. Update latest drivers for your card
2. Turn off some special effects in game options...:88)
Graph Card. Radeon X1300 Series. (but actually an X1600) ATI Driver and Catalyst Control Center up to date.
It appears I have two(2) fitted in this monster....both the same.
I'm still getting ....just my little "tadpole"....seems I need a good upgrade thats compatible......any suggestions warmly received......Dusty
elanaiba
04-03-07, 06:10 AM
I hope I'm in the right place?
I see that most of you on this thread have a display on your Attack Map of targets etc. Mine is absolutely blank apart from the "tadpole" of my boat. This is in all modes of play.
Any thoughts chaps?????.....I am patched up to 1.1....Dusty
Processor 2.13gigahertz Intel Core 2 Duo.
Memory 3072 megabytes
Hard Drive (with SH4 loaded)667.15 Free Space
Main Cct Board ASUSTek. Bus clock 66 megahertz
All this on an HP Media Center
P.S. Please reply in "Beginner Computing Speak"...Ta!
Are you running with the realism option "No map contact update" set to ON?
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7201/radiomescv7.jpg
Class ;)
GakunGak
04-03-07, 12:26 PM
I hope I'm in the right place?
I see that most of you on this thread have a display on your Attack Map of targets etc. Mine is absolutely blank apart from the "tadpole" of my boat. This is in all modes of play.
Any thoughts chaps?????.....I am patched up to 1.1....Dusty
Processor 2.13gigahertz Intel Core 2 Duo.
Memory 3072 megabytes
Hard Drive (with SH4 loaded)667.15 Free Space
Main Cct Board ASUSTek. Bus clock 66 megahertz
All this on an HP Media Center
P.S. Please reply in "Beginner Computing Speak"...Ta!
You missed your graphics/video card...
Is it nVidia, ATI? What number, drivers version???
Strongly recommended:
1. Update latest drivers for your card
2. Turn off some special effects in game options...:88)
Graph Card. Radeon X1300 Series. (but actually an X1600) ATI Driver and Catalyst Control Center up to date.
It appears I have two(2) fitted in this monster....both the same.
I'm still getting ....just my little "tadpole"....seems I need a good upgrade thats compatible......any suggestions warmly received......Dusty
I also have X1600 and it runs fine...
And you should also, try tweaking catalyst control panel for higher quality....:smug:
AVGWarhawk
04-03-07, 12:49 PM
I have the X1300 512mb and the game runs great. I did use the catalyst to tweek the card.
Dustyboats
04-03-07, 10:19 PM
I hope I'm in the right place?
I see that most of you on this thread have a display on your Attack Map of targets etc. Mine is absolutely blank apart from the "tadpole" of my boat. This is in all modes of play.
Any thoughts chaps?????.....I am patched up to 1.1....Dusty
Processor 2.13gigahertz Intel Core 2 Duo.
Memory 3072 megabytes
Hard Drive (with SH4 loaded)667.15 Free Space
Main Cct Board ASUSTek. Bus clock 66 megahertz
All this on an HP Media Center
P.S. Please reply in "Beginner Computing Speak"...Ta!
You missed your graphics/video card...
Is it nVidia, ATI? What number, drivers version???
Strongly recommended:
1. Update latest drivers for your card
2. Turn off some special effects in game options...:88)
Graph Card. Radeon X1300 Series. (but actually an X1600) ATI Driver and Catalyst Control Center up to date.
It appears I have two(2) fitted in this monster....both the same.
I'm still getting ....just my little "tadpole"....seems I need a good upgrade thats compatible......any suggestions warmly received......Dusty
I also have X1600 and it runs fine...
And you should also, try tweaking catalyst control panel for higher quality....:smug:
That did the trick!!!!!! Mucho grassy rrrr's......At the same time I hoovered out my system of the trash I've kept on it.....boy-oh-boy! I'm seeing and hearing things in SH4 that makes it a great game....Cheers.....Dusty.
Spectre-63
04-04-07, 02:20 AM
I also have X1600 and it runs fine...
And you should also, try tweaking catalyst control panel for higher quality....:smug:
what tweaks are you applying in CCC??
GakunGak
04-04-07, 04:44 AM
I also have X1600 and it runs fine...
And you should also, try tweaking catalyst control panel for higher quality....:smug:
what tweaks are you applying in CCC??
Everything maxed out except Antialiasing and anisotropic, that is for application to decide...;)
Jimbuna
04-04-07, 08:32 AM
AAALLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA RRRMMM!!! :arrgh!:
Herr Graf
04-04-07, 08:22 PM
We, the USA did not run away from a fight when Hilter was trying to conquer the world,
Oh really? I thought you let Nazi Germany invade Poland, Denmark. Norway, Holland, Belgium, France, Yugoslavia, Greece, Egypt and Russia, and almost invade Britain, without doing anything more than loaning us some (almost all obsolete) equipment. If the Japanese hadn't rattled your cage at Pearl Harbour, Europe would still be under Nazi domination.
So it was Americas fault? Lol blame America :88) More kool aid?
GakunGak
04-05-07, 05:35 AM
We, the USA did not run away from a fight when Hilter was trying to conquer the world,
Oh really? I thought you let Nazi Germany invade Poland, Denmark. Norway, Holland, Belgium, France, Yugoslavia, Greece, Egypt and Russia, and almost invade Britain, without doing anything more than loaning us some (almost all obsolete) equipment. If the Japanese hadn't rattled your cage at Pearl Harbour, Europe would still be under Nazi domination.
So it was Americas fault? Lol blame America :88) More kool aid?
Nope, blame Russia, no TYPHOONS at that time...:damn:
MtnMike
05-16-07, 10:48 AM
nm, meant to be its own thread, not a reply.
9th_cow
05-16-07, 10:53 AM
I dont know if its related but when i play online, i find manual aim as reliable as always,and auto aim doesnt want to hit much of anything.
honestly i would have thought that letting the computer shoot for you would have been the easier choice.
aparantly it isnt however, weird.
i would like the option to target something other than the dead centre of a ship however. i find that using the spread to aim a little forward or back is a bit of a pain.
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