View Full Version : What would you prefer, when a game is published ?
I have already said somewhere else in this forum that the discovery time of a new game is UNIQUE and MAGIC. Now, it is often turned to a time of frustration and deception. Then after, instead of simply playing the game, you become more what I call a "customer-beta-tester". When finally, you can start to really enjoy the game, maybe after several months of patching, moding, etc... you already know the game like the background of your pocket and start already to think about the next version, probably with the secret hope, this time you will be able to really enjoy the discovery of the next version.
Would you return to a theatre 6 month later, to watch again a comedy or a drama, because the first time you went there, it was totally bad played, with actor not knowing their text and parts of the story simply missing ? Certainly not.
You the gamer and organization like Subsim, have the power to change that and the only way is to boyicot game which are obviously published that way.
Why ? Because publishers understand only the following words: Money, turnover, income, benefit, deficit. To my view, the policy Subsim apply now, which is in fact like many other similar forums, just help publishers to apply more and more this disrespectful attitude. This is obvious, because it allow them to reduce the risk, when they launch the development of a new game or new version of it. What is bad for a publisher ? It is to see the development budget not being held. So if they know they can publish the game, even if it is not finished and then wait to see if the starting turnover can justify the development of patches, they are happy.
Why SH3, after patch 1.4b was left in a state obviously still unfinished and with several well known bugs still not corrected ? I am personnaly convinced, it was just because of economical reasons. So beware, that one day will come, where you will not get any patch. The day when publishers will have pushed the ball a bit too far in this dangerous game, the day when casual gamers, which are not idiots, will not buy the game because too much bugs, too much unfinished.
Some will object that if publisher have to take too much risk, they may decide to not launch the development. Yes, this is a risk. But personnaly, I am convinced that if a potential maket exist, soon or late, somebody will take the risk to grab it.
The day simulation games will become marginal, in term of potential maket, this day, the genre will be abandonned with absolutely no soul state by the publishers, no matter the way it was going with the process of developing such a game.
ACS
What would you prefer, when a game is published:
Let me think .... This is a hard one ..... I know .... For it to work!:lol:
nvdrifter
03-22-07, 03:11 AM
I have already said somewhere else in this forum that the discovery time of a new game is UNIQUE and MAGIC. Now, it is often turned to a time of frustration and deception. Then after, instead of simply playing the game, you become more what I call a "customer-beta-tester". When finally, you can start to really enjoy the game, maybe after several months of patching, moding, etc... you already know the game like the background of your pocket and start already to think about the next version, probably with the secret hope, this time you will be able to really enjoy the discovery of the next version.
Would you return to a theatre 6 month later, to watch again a comedy or a drama, because the first time you went there, it was totally bad played, with actor not knowing their text and parts of the story simply missing ? Certainly not.
You the gamer and organization like Subsim, have the power to change that and the only way is to boyicot game which are obviously published that way.
Why ? Because publishers understand only the following words: Money, turnover, income, benefit, deficit. To my view, the policy Subsim apply now, which is in fact like many other similar forums, just help publishers to apply more and more this disrespectful attitude. This is obvious, because it allow them to reduce the risk, when they launch the development of a new game or new version of it. What is bad for a publisher ? It is to see the development budget not being held. So if they know they can publish the game, even if it is not finished and then wait to see if the starting turnover can justify the development of patches, they are happy.
Why SH3, after patch 1.4b was left in a state obviously still unfinished and with several well known bugs still not corrected ? I am personnaly convinced, it was just because of economical reasons. So beware, that one day will come, where you will not get any patch. The day when publishers will have pushed the ball a bit too far in this dangerous game, the day when casual gamers, which are not idiots, will not buy the game because too much bugs, too much unfinished.
Some will object that if publisher have to take too much risk, they may decide to not launch the development. Yes, this is a risk. But personnaly, I am convinced that if a potential maket exist, soon or late, somebody will take the risk to grab it.
The day simulation games will become marginal, in term of potential maket, this day, the genre will be abandonned with absolutely no soul state by the publishers, no matter the way it was going with the process of developing such a game.
ACS
I have to agree with this post. It seems that UBI is trying to increase profits by seeing how far they can push the limits of casual gamers by releasing games that are more and more unfinished and untested. Even casual gamers have limits.. whatever that may be.
CrocodileDundee
03-22-07, 05:11 AM
Why SH3, after patch 1.4b was left in a state obviously still unfinished and with several well known bugs still not corrected ? I am personnaly convinced, it was just because of economical reasons. .
ACS
You got it sport! Funny thing is, 'economical reasons' could mean either:
- they got enough money from the sales and they thought there's no more market for it even if further improved
- they didn't get enough money so they didn't bother.
I don't necessarily believe they didn't get enough money since they started SHIV...:hmm:
The day simulation games will become marginal, in term of potential maket, this day, the genre will be abandonned with absolutely no soul state by the publishers, no matter the way it was going with the process of developing such a game.
ACS
That's a bit unrealistic. Simulation games will always appeal. Let's admit it though, eye candys improve the whole thing a lot. Otherwise we all should be playing Dangerous Waters (my favourite, but with abysmal graphs). It's the graphics that require a lot of work to get it right. Plus you need some brilliant minds to create realistic AIs, then wrap the whole package and optimise for the casual gamer with his budget PC.
This is a purely personal opinion: UBI-Ro was originally created for console games. They're bright guys, but they're not necessarily sub buffs. It's just a job for them, remember that. And I'm assuming Ubi-France is not paying them a lot (since they're working in Eastern Europe - still EU allright, but just). Guess you get what you pay for, given the time frame.
You got it sport! Funny thing is, 'economical reasons' could mean either:
- they got enough money from the sales and they thought there's no more market for it even if further improved
- they didn't get enough money so they didn't bother.
I don't necessarily believe they didn't get enough money since they started SHIV:hmm: ...
The economical reason, to my view, was "enough free patch now, user will have to pay for the further improvements" and they started what became now SH4 (don't forget that initially SH4 was supposed to be an expansion pack for SH3).
The day simulation games will become marginal, in term of potential maket, this day, the genre will be abandonned with absolutely no soul state by the publishers, no matter the way it was going with the process of developing such a game.
ACS
That's a bit unrealistic. Simulation games will always appeal. Let's admit it though, eye candys improve the whole thing a lot. Otherwise we all should be playing Dangerous Waters (my favourite, but with abysmal graphs). It's the graphics that require a lot of work to get it right. Plus you need some brilliant minds to create realistic AIs, then wrap the whole package and optimise for the casual gamer with his budget PC.
I really hope you will be right, I love simulation games !
ACS
To my view, the policy Subsim apply now, which is in fact like many other similar forums, just help publishers to apply more and more this disrespectful attitude.
So...you're accusing Subsim of promoting buggy games or what?
Immacolata
03-22-07, 05:37 AM
What is the point of this contentious poll? To invite more whingeing?
RedHammer
03-22-07, 06:12 AM
Hopefully not..
I believe the message is: Stop releasing games with so obvious bugs?
I approve with ACsoft`s opinion here. Even I have a limit, ofcourse, you guys are allowed your own opinion and are fully within the right to speak out.
So I might just as well grab my right to my loud opinion and critisism right now. And atleast be given the honour to ask: Ubisoft, Why did you release a game with such obvious bugs and flaws? (TDC Stadimeter.) (In-Game resolution un-changeable as well as other graphical features like HD-Bloom effects and such.) (DUD torpedoes and No Damage even tho both of theese are turned off.) (Crew members of sinking ship simply dying flat on the spot just before the water reaches them, life boats spawning 50 yards away instead of a loaring animation..)
Other then that, if I may add, the game looks great, and I haven`t given up on it, and am far away from boicotting it. I am just merely, by humble opinion indeed, pointing out that ACSoft has a point here, just as much as many had the right to boicott SH3 because of Starforce, people do have the right to boicott SH4 because of both bugs (Mentioned above.) and feature problems (Lack of historic knowledge: Lancaster bombers?? No Akagi class?, etc etc.) I could live with the Lancaster, but not without the Akagi (We are in the pacific Gentlemen.)
As said, I am looking forward to the patch, when I can use the TDC without bug`s, that is what I call atleast a good start :) And I am with no single intention trying to undermine Ubisoft directly, and do feel free to correct any/all my bug statements so far, I am not sure whether or not I got them right.
Ur friend in the Pacific Ocean.
Red Hammer
enemyminds81
03-22-07, 06:38 AM
i would prefer alot less cry babies.
get over it, you choose to play pc games. ive been playing pc games for almost 13 years now. I enjoy it very much, yet understand the flaws that come with this hobby from day one.
botom line is, if you dont like the game, please dont slam it in a negative way to detract potential new comers to a great series, over such minor things as AA in a game. the gameplay is more important in the end, and that's what this franchise is secretly known for.
also for all so called sub fans, who stoped pre-orders, or just flat out wont buy the game because of early rumours, lack of AA, some minor bugs on launch, please go away. your not real fans. PLEASE.
not buying the game only hurts the dev team, and gives ubi one more reason not to support them again. the lack of funds received possibly by all the cry babies who wont buy it now over trivial things, also depresses the dev's, if the projected numbers arnt going to at least be 45% of what they expected, the devs probably wont see any other reason to continue on with patching the game also
give it time
/end rant, im drunk and going to bed
Misfit138
03-22-07, 07:03 AM
not buying the game only hurts the dev team, and gives ubi one more reason not to support them again. the lack of funds received possibly by all the cry babies who wont buy it now over trivial things, also depresses the dev's, if the projected numbers arnt going to at least be 45% of what they expected, the devs probably wont see any other reason to continue on with patching the game also
So you're saying that people like me should buy this game even thought it's a beta? Ok, Do I get a discount? I mean, I can't honestly pay a full price from a product that is incomplete.
I have loved subsims ever since the SH1 and I'd really like to support these kind of games but supporting half-finished products isn't the choice. I already had to be a beta tester for SHIII!
RedHammer
03-22-07, 07:16 AM
Ive played pc games since `93 as well. Doesn`t make me get better insight in why buggy games are released more then anyone else here, since the question about how buggy sh4 is, is seemingly regularily asked on several forums and occasions. I saw no obvious bugs in Das Boot game, Silent Hunter 1, (Old games.) etc, etc. But again, I did not play SH4 for a long time until I myself discovered the main flaw (TDC stadimeter). Hence, your point is humbly noted :)
but if you take a further look at AC`s posts here he never once critizized the lack AA and all that eye candy which was seemingly promised, and in fact, me neither, I was just merely pointing it out, and specifically said it may be corrected by anyone ? ;) I donno about other`s, but my DE stays right here no matter what. But still, a point to be well taken, the game devs did promise some AA unless I am mistaken, and as far as I know they DID promise higher in-game resolutions. But that does not bother me. Allthough would be nice to have :)
If alot of people, by some reason(s), don`t buy the game, and SHIV sales goes down as much as 55% of the original anticipation of the Dev`s, I wouldn`t say they shouldn`t stop patching the game, on the contrary, I beg to differ Sir, I`d say they have a rather large OBLIGATION to take a look at what is going on in their game dev offices. But again, my humble opinion :)
The people you seem to call cry babies and graphics/eye candy lovers, are customers just as you, with a different point of view then your`s. I think that`s indeed NOT what differs Silent Hunter fans from wine glasses. In total, Off topic, I wouldn`t say it`s a good idea to interpret different people`s well deserved right to sceptisism by calling them complainers and cry babies.. Alittle On-Topic again, I dont know about others, but calling some new forum member a ****(W/E) or **** (W/E) Just because he cancel`s his pre-order until further information, thus he get`s the bad impression of the game. I Would be calling: Aiding to the problem of which I believe you so nicely put as: Hurting the dev team. But then again, I am far from being an expert, let alone an analyzer. So do feel free to correct.
S! to all and have a good day.
Your friend in the Pacific
Red Hammer
Platapus
03-22-07, 07:17 AM
I can accept a new game to have some teething problems. However, I do expect it to be operational right out of the box.
Every piece of software developed has functionality requirements (individual stuff it is supposed to do). Software should not be released until all the functionality is complete. This does not mean that the program has to be perfect but pretty close.
For a video game, functionality includes being able to play the game. Maybe the graphics need tweekin or sound needs to be modified but the game should be playable right out of the box.
It is my opinion that some of the game developers are pushing this functionality requirement accountability a bit too far in the "bad" direction.
I would have a great deal more respect and loyalty to a software company that was honest and upfront and informed me that the release date has been pushed back so that the product can be delivered with full functionality.
Rickenbacker
03-22-07, 07:25 AM
I bought the budget edition of Silent Hunter III, patched it up and had a great time from the start, with no bugs. If it had been as buggy as SH IV I might have given up on it, and missed a great game. So yes, I very much prefer to get a finished game right away. Also helps me do my job, as I'm a gaming journalist :-).
Von Hinten
03-22-07, 09:16 AM
Yup. It was me who voted No, but only because 'No, by all means!' was not an option.
I guess it's just that my expectations, or demands if you will, are not as high as some of the submarine experts which allows me to just have a lot of fun and be able to live with a glitch or two.
Hell, if I didn't read about them here, I could very well miss some of the so called 'major flaws' in the game, just because I didn't know any better. For me ignorance is truly bliss, without a doubt.
When facing the (admittedly very real) possibility of encountering a few bugs every now and then means I can have SHIV (or any other game that interests me for that matter) a lot sooner instead of having to wait until it's finally 'done' I'll take my chances and would love to have a go. I don't have a lot of money but placed the pre-order on SHIV without thinking about it twice and when it's here I'll be a very happy sailor.
OddjobXL
03-22-07, 09:26 AM
Seems to me that from everything, everything, I'm reading SH IV is both playable and easy on the eyes right out of the box. Where there are issues, it seems to be, that we're talking about very technical stuff that only hardcore hundred-percenters, or people with monitors at least four times the size of their heads, would be worried about. There's no reason to think that won't be addressed in a patch, at least the worst of it.
In a perfect world we'd have perfect games. Times are different. PC games get stuck with a smaller market and simulation games represent an even tinier chunk. Is it a shock that somehow, for some reason we don't know about yet, that this might be a premie? A little premature? Doesn't mean it's not a cute kid. Doesn't mean it might not grow up to be a quarterback or president someday. But right now let's give it space and let the doctors do their work.
Until we know, if we ever do, why things happened as they did jumping to conclusions about the reasons and pointing accusatory fingers at everyone and ranting on and on about the unfair harshness of a cutthroat captialist economy isn't going to make things better.
For the vast majority of non-hundred-percenter gamers, SH4 may well be the first and best subsim they ever play. Most all of the bugs won't even touch 'em. Why scare 'em off? Isn't making your point once and, having vented and/or constructively shared your insights, enough?
Others have said this before and maybe better but just take a deep breath. Consider the history of sims, especially the recent history, and remember why sims aren't huge. We need two things more than any one detail in any particular product: developers and customers. Now, I'm not saying to cheerlead. If a product is a real stinker let 'em have it. But, really, is SH4 that? Remotely that?
If people are moaning, repetatively, is it really because they feel so greviously, personally, wounded or is it because they're the heroic standard bearers for a greater and more glorious future for simulation gaming? I dunno. Could be it's because they like complaining. Otherwise they'd either patiently wait and see what's down the road in terms of mods and patches or just cut their losses and play the games already out there which do meet their criteria of perfection. My guess is there just aren't that many of the latter...
Deep Six
03-22-07, 09:42 AM
Seems to me that from everything, everything, I'm reading SH IV is both playable and easy on the eyes right out of the box. Where there are issues, it seems to be, that we're talking about very technical stuff that only hardcore hundred-percenters, or people with monitors at least four times the size of their heads, would be worried about. There's no reason to think that won't be addressed in a patch, at least the worst of it...
Well the WORST of it is not having any AA at all..I really hope they do sort out this problem, but that would probably need a complete re-write of the DX code...I'm not going to be crossing my fingers. Whilst I agree there is really no need to play any game above 1600X1200 at this reso you get very little jaggedness anyways , we still have to cater for the fact that people still WANT to and in fact own TFT with Fixed Resolutions in widesreeen that go beyond the settings defaulted in the game....Come on they should have followed the ball with what they already had in SH3 at least we could force AA and with a little patching also up the Reso beyond the fixed 1024 X 768, Did they learn anything from these two glaring mistakes .....NO
Deep Six
Immacolata
03-22-07, 09:42 AM
OddjobXL, I think the problem is too many drama queens around. One or two is quite okay. But there's an army right now :smug:
SteamWake
03-22-07, 09:47 AM
OddjobXL, I think the problem is too many drama queens around. One or two is quite okay. But there's an army right now :smug:
This is expected upon release of any game.
I cant remember any game .... seriously any game that did not end up with patches.
First thing I do anymore after installing and playing even one second is check for updates.
The poll is kinda of ambiguous.
not buying the game only hurts the dev team, and gives ubi one more reason not to support them again. the lack of funds received possibly by all the cry babies who wont buy it now over trivial things, also depresses the dev's, if the projected numbers arnt going to at least be 45% of what they expected, the devs probably wont see any other reason to continue on with patching the game also
give it time
/end rant, im drunk and going to bed Thats a load of bullplop. It isn'tup to the customer to buy the game in order to ensure that he gets a decent complete product after he forks out his cash. When I buy something I expect services delivered. Not future possibilities if my contribution to the gross revenues of a multinational might incline them to not pull the plug on my little niche game. Arguing that we need to buy the game to encourage Ubi to let it mature is just twisted.
It doesn't matter if it was the devs not doing their job (not my bet) or if it was the publisher rushing the release (definitely my bet), the point is that when I fork over my cash I want what I'm paying for. I don't want a bloody rain cheque. I don't pay top dollar to sit in the nose bleeds. As a full price game SH4 shouldn't be as flawed as its being described as. So I'll wait and play SH3 with GWX and SH3 Cmdr because its better and when SH4 is either cheaper or is patched to be less buggy then I might consider my top dollar. But I don't buy games very often. And I certainly don't want to buy an expensive piece of software and then have to let it ripen like some expensive bottle of wine before I can drink it.
There. End counter-rant.
To my view, the policy Subsim apply now, which is in fact like many other similar forums, just help publishers to apply more and more this disrespectful attitude.
So...you're accusing Subsim of promoting buggy games or what?
Not at all. I am fighting against the sad fact that more and more PC games communities, including this one, seem to consider now natural, to not say normal, that a game come on the market in the state like SH4 was published.
Yes, it is impossible to garantee that a complex piece of software will come out 100% bug-free, especially in the PC world, where you found so much different hardware & software configuration. But attention !!! Their is bug and bug.
A crash to desktop, which occur only on some PC of some infortunate users, yes. This is typically the kind of bug which will be always very difficult to avoid and I can accept that. But any obvious bug, that everybody hit after having played 5 minutes, sorry, but to my view, this is simply inadmissible, like it is to publish a game obviously unfinished.
Maybe Subsim think that to be severe toward such kind of game will be contra-productive. That it will not help to change the situation. Better to accept and just play the role of "customer-beta-tester". This is not my opinion at all and I have already explained why in an other message.
ACS
What is the point of this contentious poll? To invite more whingeing?
Yes exactly, so then, you can comfort us and dry our tears ;)
ACS
John Channing
03-22-07, 11:54 AM
AC:
I have discussed this with you in the forum and in PM's but I seem to be failing to get my message through to you.
No one at Subsim... not Neal or any of the Moderators, is preventing anyone from voicing their opinions, either pro or con.
They only thing we insist on is that you do it in a mature, respectful manner, and have respect for the other person's point of view.
There is no policy at Subsim that we take a stance either way on any issues.
If you have any questions please read the Subsim FAQ.
In fact, read it anyway. It is worth the time and effort.
Thanks
JCC
I understand both points of view. Products shipping with bugs especially a product as obviously buggy as SHIV is extremely annoying to the customer, both new and veteran. However, constant moaning about small issues solves nothing.
The main problem here is that SHIV was shipped with at least one MAJOR functionality bug, a show stopper and to me, that's just un-acceptable. Cosmetic bugs are aren't going to stop the game. But if a user presses an onscreen item essential to the game's functionality and the program stops or crashes EVERY TIME, then that is a non-starter IMHO.
The original poster is correct, if people keep buying software and not pointing out these faults, companies will simply keep shipping out unfinished work. I'm old enough to remember the days that when you bought a game it worked to an enjoyable degree out of the box. But the internet has made companies lazy when it comes to resolving QA issues. They can simply release what effectively is a beta and ship a patch later (usually with a promise of others to come. Which quite often don't).
I don't care what anyone says, but SHIV should NEVER have shipped without the major show-stoppers ironed out, even if it was just to save the credibility of the producer.
Tony
Ducimus
03-22-07, 12:32 PM
This isnt a poll to ask the consumer. Thats a no brainer.
This is a poll to present unto a publisher.
Not at all. I am fighting against the sad fact that more and more PC games communities, including this one, seem to consider now natural, to not say normal, that a game come on the market in the state like SH4 was published.
ACS
Just curious, have you come to this conclusion by actually purchasing and playing the game yourself?
AC:
I have discussed this with you in the forum and in PM's but I seem to be failing to get my message through to you.
No one at Subsim... not Neal or any of the Moderators, is preventing anyone from voicing their opinions, either pro or con.
They only thing we insist on is that you do it in a mature, respectful manner, and have respect for the other person's point of view.
There is no policy at Subsim that we take a stance either way on any issues.
If you have any questions please read the Subsim FAQ.
In fact, read it anyway. It is worth the time and effort.
Thanks
JCC
I don't see why my pool would mean "I am failing to get your message" ?!?
I re-read the FAQ, but didn't found any rules I would have broken.
Apparently you scold me again with this message, I would like to know why ? Speaking of my ironical "pathetic" adjective, I already answered to you in private, so now, if you consider I commit some new "crime", please be more precise.
ACS
Not at all. I am fighting against the sad fact that more and more PC games communities, including this one, seem to consider now natural, to not say normal, that a game come on the market in the state like SH4 was published.
ACS
Just curious, have you come to this conclusion by actually purchasing and playing the game yourself?
I don't really understand what conclusion do you mean ?
That the game was shamefully buggy & unfinised or something else ?
ACS
John Channing
03-22-07, 02:30 PM
AC:
I have discussed this with you in the forum and in PM's but I seem to be failing to get my message through to you.
No one at Subsim... not Neal or any of the Moderators, is preventing anyone from voicing their opinions, either pro or con.
They only thing we insist on is that you do it in a mature, respectful manner, and have respect for the other person's point of view.
There is no policy at Subsim that we take a stance either way on any issues.
If you have any questions please read the Subsim FAQ.
In fact, read it anyway. It is worth the time and effort.
Thanks
JCC
I don't see why my pool would mean "I am failing to get your message" ?!?
I re-read the FAQ, but didn't found any rules I would have broken.
Apparently you scold me again with this message, I would like to know why ? Speaking of my ironical "pathetic" adjective, I already answered to you in private, so now, if you consider I commit some new "crime", please be more precise.
ACS
Here are two quotes by you in this very thread.
"To my view, the policy Subsim apply now, which is in fact like many other similar forums, just help publishers to apply more and more this disrespectful attitude."
"Maybe Subsim think that to be severe toward such kind of game will be contra-productive. That it will not help to change the situation. Better to accept and just play the role of "customer-beta-tester"
And here is a quote from me in this thread.
"There is no policy at Subsim that we take a stance either way on any issues."
In this and other threads you have in some cases implied and others flat out stated that Subsim.com has a policy about supporting substandard merchandise and trying to prevent open discussion. We have no such policy. If you have read the FAQ you should now be aware of that.
It is my personal belief, based on discussions with people at Ubisoft and several other developers over the years (people like Carl Norman, Gilman Louie, Smut Martin, Matt Wagner and many others) that if the community turns against a title too early then it will affect sales and future development.
My belief is based on conversations with the leading people in the industry... people who know what they are talking about.
Upon what are your beliefs based?
JCC
Fat Bhoy Tim
03-22-07, 02:39 PM
This isnt a poll to ask the consumer. Thats a no brainer.
This is a poll to present unto a publisher.
Even then the sheer redundancy of it doesn't really prove anything. They know it as much as we do.
@ACSoft:
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
You seem to me a true admiror of Caton (The Old) :hmm:
Not at all. I am fighting against the sad fact that more and more PC games communities, including this one, seem to consider now natural, to not say normal, that a game come on the market in the state like SH4 was published.
ACS
Just curious, have you come to this conclusion by actually purchasing and playing the game yourself?
I don't really understand what conclusion do you mean ?
That the game was shamefully buggy & unfinised or something else ?
ACS
Ok, I'll make it simple... have you bought and played the game yourself?
RedHammer
03-22-07, 03:40 PM
AC, the moderators are not hunting you, relax, but they might find it alittle annoying that you keep saying they are hunting you. I would.
Whatever other topics you have written in the past, which I have not read. May I say it so far seems like you have written nothing wrong in this one, YET. So please keep it that way (No fingers pointed.), you created a interesting subject of discussion here, and I am engaged in it, so I don`t mean any harm, I only wish you to not say anything you have not thought over very well. Because that might lead to hammering and bashing and thread being closed. Thanks alot in advance.
On-Topic again:
Even after the patch, there are still a few TDC bugs left (No CTD`s thank god, but the Speed bug is really annoying me, cant get a good solution.) If they are fixed there is a winner amongst Pacific ww2 sub sims here! But, if John`s opinion may very well turn out to be correct, and SH projects are cancelled.. That would be sad..
My personal thought, I hope they will continue. After all, to me, SH series is still the best sub sims available, and If they just fix the Speed Chronometer, and maybe a couple of visual patches (I do feel perfectly fine with 1024x768 resolution, but other`s here do not share that opinion.), Put in the Akagi and Narwhal in a patch, And perhaps a few SDK kits for sh3 and sh4. My thought is they shouldnt feel bad, They then fixed the problems which are obvious. And can sit down and relax, and have a beer on my tab, because then they have made a very very very good Sub sim.
Some off-topic to loosening up the tention here: I was 10 years old when I started playing Silent Hunter 1 with all commander packs, at first I didnt even know about the torpedoes :P I just surfaced with invincible "cheat" and blasted them with my powerful deck gun!! I remember using the Mission Editor to put in loads of Saipan`s and just blast them away with my Deck gun :lol: Also I used to shoot down enemy planes with deck gun :D but that recuired alot of luck and testing :P I started looking for other means to dispatch of my terrible foe, and at the side of the periscope, I found many red buttons with numbers on them... I pointed the periscope towards a enemy Merchant while my ww2 fanatic buddy was there. We saw a red triangle below the merchant... I just accidentally clicked the first red button.. and heard: FIRING ONE!!! and we see a white strip going towards the enemy ship.. my buddy asks: Uhm tore whats that? KAAABLAAAAM!
Enemy ship destroyed sir! Me and my buddy just totally shocked while looking at whats left of the ship is sinking :lol: That`s when I discovered Torpedoes :)'
S! to all!
Your friend in the Pacific
RH
Not at all. I am fighting against the sad fact that more and more PC games communities, including this one, seem to consider now natural, to not say normal, that a game come on the market in the state like SH4 was published.
ACS
Just curious, have you come to this conclusion by actually purchasing and playing the game yourself?
I don't really understand what conclusion do you mean ?
That the game was shamefully buggy & unfinised or something else ?
ACS
Ok, I'll make it simple... have you bought and played the game yourself?
I had the beta-version.
ACS
AC:
I have discussed this with you in the forum and in PM's but I seem to be failing to get my message through to you.
No one at Subsim... not Neal or any of the Moderators, is preventing anyone from voicing their opinions, either pro or con.
They only thing we insist on is that you do it in a mature, respectful manner, and have respect for the other person's point of view.
There is no policy at Subsim that we take a stance either way on any issues.
If you have any questions please read the Subsim FAQ.
In fact, read it anyway. It is worth the time and effort.
Thanks
JCC
I don't see why my pool would mean "I am failing to get your message" ?!?
I re-read the FAQ, but didn't found any rules I would have broken.
Apparently you scold me again with this message, I would like to know why ? Speaking of my ironical "pathetic" adjective, I already answered to you in private, so now, if you consider I commit some new "crime", please be more precise.
ACS
Here are two quotes by you in this very thread.
"To my view, the policy Subsim apply now, which is in fact like many other similar forums, just help publishers to apply more and more this disrespectful attitude."
"Maybe Subsim think that to be severe toward such kind of game will be contra-productive. That it will not help to change the situation. Better to accept and just play the role of "customer-beta-tester"
And here is a quote from me in this thread.
"There is no policy at Subsim that we take a stance either way on any issues."
In this and other threads you have in some cases implied and others flat out stated that Subsim.com has a policy about supporting substandard merchandise and trying to prevent open discussion. We have no such policy. If you have read the FAQ you should now be aware of that.
It is my personal belief, based on discussions with people at Ubisoft and several other developers over the years (people like Carl Norman, Gilman Louie, Smut Martin, Matt Wagner and many others) that if the community turns against a title too early then it will affect sales and future development.
My belief is based on conversations with the leading people in the industry... people who know what they are talking about.
Upon what are your beliefs based?
JCC
OK, now I think I have understood, Subsim dont take a stance either way on any issues, the moderators and the owner, when they write here, express their personnal opinion.
And to answer your question, my beliefs are based on common sense and 60 years of experience in the life.
And now, it is my turn to tell you, please stop. I am not an idiot, I can read your real intentions between your lines and I don't like this.
ACS
@ACSoft:
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
You seem to me a true admiror of Caton (The Old) :hmm:
Do you think I think "Delenda circences est" ?
The answer is no.
ACS
Ok, I'll make it simple... have you bought and played the game yourself?
I had the beta-version.
ACS
I'll take that as a 'no' then...
Ok, I'll make it simple... have you bought and played the game yourself?
I had the beta-version.
ACS
I'll take that as a 'no' then...
Take it like you want.
The fact is that the beta I have tested was maybe even better than the final version (didn't had some of the bugs mentioned).
Now, even if I wouldn't had the occasion to play with the game, my interventions would remain totally legitime. I have never commented any particular bugs or particular problems. All my interventions only denounce the true scandal, to my view, of publishing a game in this state. Something which is quite obvious, just by reading this forum.
Secondly, I have expressed my opinion that I thing it is wrong to forgive all this, because I think this will not produce the expected result.
ACS
The fact is that the beta I have tested was maybe even better than the final version (didn't had some of the bugs mentioned).
Was there a publicly available beta of the game prior to the release, or were you an official tester for the developer?
This poll asks a useless question, IMHO. You might as well have asked "Would you prefer to live in a perfect world?" Of course everyone will answer 'yes' but that's not the situation we have at hands. You should focus on changing that. Do you think that not buying this game will give the right message to some top manager at Ubi? I don't think so. He will just conclude that investing in simulation games is stupid and fire the person responsible for working on it and give more money to the FPS/sports/etc camp.
Yes, I would also prefer a bug-free game but it seems that games have became so complex and expensive that the development is constantly racing the time-constraints (provided by financial constraints) just to implement the requirements and do as much testing as possible. Having said that, I don't see anything generally broken with this sim.
Now, I wouldn't defend a sim just because it is a sim (and the simulations are on the edge of extinction, it seems), but I don't see any point in bashing a clearly well-produced game just because there are some bugs which will be ironed out with patching. AA is a different issue, yes, but I don't see it as a showstopper. This is a sim, after all.
Sailor Steve
03-23-07, 11:08 AM
I can't answer to the game itself, because I haven't played it yet.
While it has been stated many times that not only are legitimate complaints welcome, but it has been shown that the devs are trying to fix everything they can and it has also been explained why patches are needed so soon after the initial release.
As to the poll itself, it's like asking "Which would you prefer to eat":
1) Ice Cream
2) Glass
The only possible answer is obvious, and the question is not only loaded but serves no real purpose other to set up a straw man so you can knock him down again.
John Channing
03-23-07, 02:27 PM
I can't answer to the game itself, because I haven't played it yet.
While it has been stated many times that not only are legitimate complaints welcome, but it has been shown that the devs are trying to fix everything they can and it has also been explained why patches are needed so soon after the initial release.
As to the poll itself, it's like asking "Which would you prefer to eat":
1) Ice Cream
2) Glass
The only possible answer is obvious, and the question is not only loaded but serves no real purpose other to set up a straw man so you can knock him down again.
Can I have my ice cream in a glass?
JCC
I can't answer to the game itself, because I haven't played it yet.
While it has been stated many times that not only are legitimate complaints welcome, but it has been shown that the devs are trying to fix everything they can and it has also been explained why patches are needed so soon after the initial release.
As to the poll itself, it's like asking "Which would you prefer to eat":
1) Ice Cream
2) Glass
The only possible answer is obvious, and the question is not only loaded but serves no real purpose other to set up a straw man so you can knock him down again.
Yes, the answer is obvious and I wanted this !
This was to show the amazing contradiction many peoples have, even in this thread ! They want to start with a better game, but they forgive all and are totally fatalist about the situation !
Game are complex, etc..., etc... OK we all know these arguments, but is this a reason to accept to be forced to be a "customer-beta-tester". To my view, certainly not. Moreover, what is SH4, a new game developed from scratch ? Absolutely not. It is SH3 with modifications. To my view, this made the situation that users are actually living even less forgivable.
Somebody said I want perfection. This isn't true. I admit that first edition of a game, will probably always have bugs. But attention, not obvious bugs that any player discover after 5 minutes of playing, not parts that are obviously unfinished. Bugs which only some unfortunate users have, because of their particular Hardware/software configurations. I am even ready to accept a bug into the logic of play, but only if it is in a very particular situation which obviously escaped the tests.
Again and again, YOU customers can change that. So, please, be consequent with your wills and act in the right direction.
One more word. I think personnaly that the debate is done now. I was able to express an opinion which was obviously "swimming against the stream", without to be to much agressed and peoples not sharing my point of view also express their views widely. We even spoke latin !!!
This mean Subsim is really a smart community and I thank-you all for this. But if you don't mind, I propose to the moderator to lock this thread now.
For those who prefer to be SH4 "customer-beta-tester" have good tests.
For those who prefer to wait and enjoy SHIII, with or without mods, good hunting !
ACS
To be honist This is a hard topic..... I never had any problem with Vanilla SH3 and was happy with it. While i am enjoying SH4, i do see it has an awful lot of bugs and is far from a complete game :-?
While i would rather get back to talking about the positives about this game i do have to say that SH4s release was a complete failure.... Ubi had so many different versions of the game and so many different release dates that no one could follow the progress. The game has come out early almost everywhere (got my CE one day early) and many places (Canada) havnt got what was promised.
It is easy to see they were under time constraints.... With all the glitches and the absolutly pathetic intro..... I just hope we get all this fixed within the next couple weeks :down:
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