TDCs and Idiots

[dean_acheson]

This is a short post for folks out there using the TDC, and who don't really know what they are doing....

I found that playing the school torpedo mission, over and over, where you have some free shots at a crusier moving across your bow, as well as reading the endsheet in Theodore Roscoe's book on Submarine warfare in the pacific, helped a ton.

I am still really basically guessing at the AOB (angle on the bow) and the speeds, but figure that I will get better with time.

What I started doing wrong, is that I didn't realize when inputting the AOB into the TDC, that it isn't asking for the target's angle on MY bow, it is asking what is the angle from the TARGET to MYSELF, namely, if the capt. was standing on his bridge, what would be his angle of view to ME.

Now all that might sound lame, but it isn't something that I ever really realized in reading about this stuff, and in SH3, I always let the WO do the inputs....

For those w/o this game, or are still just pointing and shooting, it is a helluva thrill to get your first hit doing your own inputs on a moving ship....

neato!

[Dowly]

Yeh... would be nice, but my stadimeter crashes the game. :nope:

[tedhealy]

Definitely a good tip for people new to setting the TDC themselves and probably the number one error.

You'll have to go back and play some sh3 with manual targeting now too :D It's a completely different game when you have to set up the shots.

I love the american TDC and I'm really starting to get into sh4. Can't wait for the patch.

Luckily, my stadimeter functions just fine.

Running AMD 3400, 7800GT with latest drivers, and 2 gig of ram.

[fullmetaledges]

Yeh... would be nice, but my stadimeter crashes the game. :nope: mine crashed as well when i had the recog book open, try closing it first before you use the stadimeter and it works. for me anyway.

[Dowly]

Yeh... would be nice, but my stadimeter crashes the game. :nope: mine crashed as well when i had the recog book open, try closing it first before you use the stadimeter and it works. for me anyway.
I always close it when done indentifying the ship. :roll:

Running AMD 3400, 7800GT with latest drivers, and 2 gig of ram.

AMD 64 3500+ 7800GTX latest drivers, 2gb RAM. :)

[fullmetaledges]

Yeh... would be nice, but my stadimeter crashes the game. :nope: mine crashed as well when i had the recog book open, try closing it first before you use the stadimeter and it works. for me anyway.

I always close it when done indentifying the ship. :roll: that sucks, i haven't used the stadimeter but only on that training mission, i just set up the aob and speed and then guess the range, start the posistion keeper in the tdc window and go to the attack map there you can see where your tdc thinks the target should be, then i adjust the range to match the actual ships range and fire away

[P_Funk]

Yeh... would be nice, but my stadimeter crashes the game. :nope: mine crashed as well when i had the recog book open, try closing it first before you use the stadimeter and it works. for me anyway. I know that we've complained alot about bugs but... thats a pretty bad one. I mean all the hardcore fans that will play this game and you can't even use the stadimeter properly without being careful... thats worse than the torpedo speed problem in SH3.

When one bug involves getting one of 3 key pieces of info for the TDC... you know the game is incomplete.

As for AOB its the same as in SH3. In sh3 the AOB tool in the notepad use the same comparison shot, ie the target ship and from what angle the sub would appear to it. I always use math for AOB though, but then I have been meaning to practise my guessing work.

[fullmetaledges]

Yeh... would be nice, but my stadimeter crashes the game. :nope: mine crashed as well when i had the recog book open, try closing it first before you use the stadimeter and it works. for me anyway.
I know that we've complained alot about bugs but... thats a pretty bad one. I mean all the hardcore fans that will play this game and you can't even use the stadimeter properly without being careful... thats worse than the torpedo speed problem in SH3.

When one bug involves getting one of 3 key pieces of info for the TDC... you know the game is incomplete.

As for AOB its the same as in SH3. In sh3 the AOB tool in the notepad use the same comparison shot, ie the target ship and from what angle the sub would appear to it. I always use math for AOB thought, but then I have been meaning to practise my guessing work.
yeah it sucks but at least i figured out why it crashed, so i just close the book before i use the stadometer at least it works for now. as far as getting the speed from there tool i have no idea how to use it i just use the ruler and chrono

[Joe S]

It has often been said that range is the least important of all TDC calculations, and my own experience comports with that. Have you tried pre-setting the range to something like 1,500 or 2,500? Thats what I almost always do with SH3, and it seems to work. i dont have the game yet or I would try it myself. Joe S

[P_Funk]

It has often been said that range is the least important of all TDC calculations, and my own experience comports with that. Have you tried pre-setting the range to something like 1,500 or 2,500? Thats what I almost always do with SH3, and it seems to work. i dont have the game yet or I would try it myself. Joe S
Thats true, but for people who mightbe new to manual TDC they have to learn how to guess range properly and the only real way to do that is to do accurate range finding until you can guess the range. But if I can't use my stadimeter to learn ranges to begin with I have no frame of reference for guessing. Its a chicken and egg thing.

[ryuzu]

It has often been said that range is the least important of all TDC calculations, and my own experience comports with that. Have you tried pre-setting the range to something like 1,500 or 2,500? Thats what I almost always do with SH3, and it seems to work. i dont have the game yet or I would try it myself. Joe S

I don't think there is any other way to input the range except the stadimeter. The full TDC (a'la SH3) is not modelled...

r.

[zande]

I don't think there is any other way to input the range except the stadimeter. The full TDC (a'la SH3) is not modelled...

r.

you can input the range manually, just click on the gauge and you can rotate it, note that the range is the inside wheel, I haven't yet understood what the numbers on the outside wheel are.

[Dowly]

you can input the range manually, just click on the gauge and you can rotate it, note that the range is the inside wheel, I haven't yet understood what the numbers on the outside wheel are.

I think it´s the height of the target ship. Besides, I only have been able to rotate the outer wheel. :shifty:

[ryuzu]

I don't think there is any other way to input the range except the stadimeter. The full TDC (a'la SH3) is not modelled...

r.

you can input the range manually, just click on the gauge and you can rotate it, note that the range is the inside wheel, I haven't yet understood what the numbers on the outside wheel are.

No you cannot input range that way.

The manual is your friend.... The outer wheel sets the height of the mast (which indirectly adjusts the range, but not in a usable way), the inner wheel is rotated by moving the Stadimeter image. Sadly, while you can move the Stadimeter, many people have a CTD when they try and leave it (by left-clicking).

r.

[JocMeister]

Please correct me if I´m wrong.

I also get a CTD when using the stedimeter. Sometimes it crashes and sometimes it don´t. Anyway, so in order to use menual targeting we now have to guess (or estimate if you like) range (stedimeter broken), AoB (Always an estimate so no biggy) and speed (broken/non working).

This is silly... Even getting a fairly good estimate chances to hit are at best slim. Personally I find estimating the range nearly impossible. AoB I´m used to estimate so not to big of a deal. Speed is also fairly easy to estimate but after trying a few torpedo attacks I found that I missed 100% of the torps. That isn´t too strange considering the fact that I´m more or less shooting blindly!

I could have perhaps use detailed plotting to get a fairly good reading of the target speed if could get a very accurate range reading. But I can´t because I CTR when I use the stedimeter...

Way to go UBI :down:

[heartc]

AOB and speed are most important. Range is the most unimportant data for the fire solution, because when the gyro (lead) angle is right, it is right enough for a target at a huge variety of ranges if AOB and speed are accurate. You are most likely missing not because of inaccurate range, but because of the AOB or speed estimates.

My English is too limited to explain further and I don't have the time either, but all that is happening when you have wrong range is basicly that your torps will impact sooner or later than expected.

Try it by making a fake targetting set up and note the green line (gyro angle) on the attack map. Then, change just range, and watch how little the gyro angle changes except for very close ranges.

[RedHammer]

I never before used the TDC in SH games, they turn out to be too complicated, and even if I do everything absolutely correct (SH3) the torpedoes go faaar beyond the target... as for sh4, stadimeter ctd`s on me as well..

However I haven`t given up on the game, it looks good, and as soon as they fixed the stadimeter im all for getting perfect solutions big time :D

AMD Athlon X2 4200+ clocked to 2.5 ghz each core. 2048 mb OCZ Dual Platinum Edition. GeForce 7800 GT 256 mb. (Looks like I need a better v-card on this one.. laggs alot sometimes when ships are blowing up all around me, or if I am in the sink Yamato in harbour mission, alot of terrain rendering.)


S!

RH

[joea]

Now all that might sound lame, but it isn't something that I ever really realized in reading about this stuff, and in SH3, I always let the WO do the inputs....

For those w/o this game, or are still just pointing and shooting, it is a helluva thrill to get your first hit doing your own inputs on a moving ship....

neato!

Cool!! Dean, you know you could do the eaxct same thing on the SH3 notepad...a little circle where you had to move a dot (your sub) around a ship to input AoB into the TDC.

[dean_acheson]

I had no idea, I never did this in SH3, and simply let the weapon's officer do all the inputs for me.

How freaking lazy I am... eh?

I'm sorry to hear about the ctd on the stadimeter thing. I haven't had this problem at all so I really don't have any ideas.

[NefariousKoel]

I had no idea, I never did this in SH3, and simply let the weapon's officer do all the inputs for me.

How freaking lazy I am... eh?

I'm sorry to hear about the ctd on the stadimeter thing. I haven't had this problem at all so I really don't have any ideas.

I've never had the stadimeter crash on me yet, either. I don't have a dual core cpu and it seems people having the crash have a dual core.

[dean_acheson]

I am cross posting this from another thread.....

"As to guessing on the AOB, I like this, even if I ain't Dick O'Kane, who developed a really cool method to practice this, which consisted of a lazy susan, a reversered pair of binoculars, and a ship model........

a crewman would turn the lazy susan, which had the ship model on it, and the bow angles marked where o'kane couldn't see them. He would stand across the officers wardroom looking through the binocs and guess the angle.

He got to where he could figure the angle w/in a few degrees everytime..."

There is a really cool History Channel on Fleet Boats that shows O'Kane doing this.....

__________________

[onnel]

I'm doing OK on the TDC (even with the annoying speed bug where the stopwatrch thing doesn't work, just popping up the stopwqatch and closing it when you click again), EXCEPT AOB. I just am not getting what it's supposed to represent. Yes, I did manual plots in SH3, but here I'm just not getting it. Would anyone be willing to provide osme illustrations or a really good walkthrough?

Also, does anyone else find it annoying that the TDC is not shown on the attack map? I'd love to be able to change the range (and even AOB) directly in the attack map screen rather than having to switch back and forth to the periscope to make sure I got it right!

Onnel

[Forlorn]

Getting the speed with the chronometer is also borked, there is no speed calculated. :(

[RedHammer]

Agreed :D

And also, not a very complicated guide, like: AOB, this means Angle of Bow and can find references for it in following books blah blah and it means +0x degrees is blah blah.


But simply just like: Angle of Bow is your position relative to the target, to do this, you must, blah blah. Thats alot better

And speed, not like: You can find references blah blah and also mentioned in law 38xb of military navy and to do this number 46x832.

But simply: Click this button (Image) and wait for X recommended seconds, then click the button again. Or, In the charts, do this and this and this, wait for a while, then do this and this, and put the X result in the Speed thingy in TDC.


That would be great for us newbies :D And we sure would appreciate it :D
No hammering meant in this post, (The BLAHBLAH thingy.) So I am sorry if that is what it seems like.

Your friend in the Pacific

S!

RH

[dean_acheson]

no. that was the original point of this tread.

the angle on the bow AOB is not the targets' position relative to you, it is your position (you as being the submarine) relative to the target.

you are the japanese captain, looking off the bridge, at what angle does he see YOUR submarine..... look at this chart.... (my other points being that we will all need help figuring speed

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/7053/plateihi0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[dean_acheson]

whoops, sorry, got that from the ever cool http://www.hnsa.org/index.htm

one of the baddest sites on the world wide internet file web thingy.....

[RedHammer]

Read again Dean... :)



But simply just like: Angle of Bow is your position relative to the target, to do this, you must, blah blah. Thats alot better



:rotfl:No offense.. Sorry.

But still, how do you get a pretty much accurate AOB without wasting too much time. Let`s leave the Speed bug to the dev`s.

S!

RH

[onnel]

Thanks Dean...leaving speed issues aside (we can do that manually on the map), how would in set the ingame AOB indictator for each of the figures in your post (figure 1, for example)?

I know what AOB is, I just don't understand it's relationship with the in game control.

Thanks!
Onnel

[RedHammer]

Measuring speed: I dont have 3 minutes at all, simple as that, using map only ends with propostreus results as the ship has already crossed my 0. And ship often does alot of course changes, I get a miss. I need the simple way of the tdc chronometer to even be able to get a speed measurement, I am simply too newbie to be able to determine everything by just looking at a screenshot of a moving ship (that was a joke. But also alittle serious since that`s the only way I can describe the experience you guys seem to have.)

When it goes for accurate AOB measurement I am totally blank, I am just guessing, and always ends with disaster, even if I get the speed right..

I`m sorry, but just now, I feel like I cant play the game at all. It looks so great, but the speed bug and no simple degree thingy way to do in Map, just dont cut it to me. Happy to see other`s doing it with no prob tho :D

Frustrated

RH

[dean_acheson]

let me say that I am far from perfect.

as to the AOB, I just sight through the periscope or the TBT on the bridge and bore sight.

slide the adjuster to the Angle on the Bow to what you think that it is.

I mean, if the ship coming is a 45 degree angle to you, and coming on for a good 90 degree shot, you set height, then aob, then guess speed and click the little red button on the botton right of the TDC to keep your adjustments which should stay good as long as the ship doesn't turn.

Right now, it is a lot of guess work. It will take time and practice to get good.

I am real good with ships that aren't moving, and getting so-so with those that ain't....

my suggestion, which is what I am still working on is the school mission with the cruiser (the torpedo mission)

you get a cruiser and get to practice shots on it.....

[THE_MASK]

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/8336/shivcreditshg9ej3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[dean_acheson]

that'ed be me. :)

[fullmetaledges]

Measuring speed: I dont have 3 minutes at all, simple as that, using map only ends with propostreus results as the ship has already crossed my 0. And ship often does alot of course changes, I get a miss. I need the simple way of the tdc chronometer to even be able to get a speed measurement, I am simply too newbie to be able to determine everything by just looking at a screenshot of a moving ship (that was a joke. But also alittle serious since that`s the only way I can describe the experience you guys seem to have.)

When it goes for accurate AOB measurement I am totally blank, I am just guessing, and always ends with disaster, even if I get the speed right..

I`m sorry, but just now, I feel like I cant play the game at all. It looks so great, but the speed bug and no simple degree thingy way to do in Map, just dont cut it to me. Happy to see other`s doing it with no prob tho :D

Frustrated

RH

I don't know how to draw or take screenies so give me a break. This is the way I do it. I draw a line for the targets course. I then take the protractor on the map screen the click on the targets course line i just drew, the target ship and my own sub. The AOB is the measurement of that angle. Here is my crappy picture. The good thing about the US TDC is that if you have to guess as far as speed goes you can watch where the posistion indicator is and adjust it until it's right. HOW DO YOU TAKE SCREENSHOTS

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/nailbomb/aob.jpg

[dean_acheson]

Fullmetal,
that's a great idea!

here is what I am thinking, I am going to start using the default of 15 knts for taskforces and 9 for convoys. That is what the intel reports over the radio are telling me for average speeds....

boys, we will lick this thing yet!