Feasible actuality question

[3Jane]

I am currently faced with a large convoy a few hundred miles off the coast of Spain, in extremely stormy conditions. No rain. but heavy fog and very rough sea state. Some of the merchants are burning, indicating a wolfpack involvement, although nothing is indicated on the map updates I presume it was before I arrived on the scene.
I have carried out two attacks on this convoy up to now, the rough sea allowing me to match the convoy speed and reload torpedos without being detected at 140 metres. I ended up overwriting these attacks and going back to a previous save point because the whole thing, including the four sinkings left me dissatisfied. The reason being that I was uncertain as to how credible these attacks were in terms of historical actuality. I only play 67% realism anyway, so total accuracy isn't a great bug-bear with me. But even so it's only possible to streatch credibility so far before it breaks. The attacks I carried out were at periscope depth, even with the sea state as it is I was able to acquire the targets for long enough to launch torpedos. What really bothers me is that throughout the attacks the top of the conning tower kept being exposed as it would do in the rough sea. The escorts didn't spot me with the weather as it is, but I wasn't happy as it all felt toaly unrealistic. The nub of my question is, what would have been more likely to happen in actuality. Would the commander have: Tracked the convoy hoping for calmer weather and then attacked (having just gone through six continuous days of the same weather, I can't see any weather change on the near future). Waited until dark, working the boat in to the midst of the convoy on hydropone contacts then carried out a surface attack having reconnoitered possible targets before hand. Carried out the attck at periscope depth and managed as best as possible with the circumstances. Or tracked the convoy and if there was no change in conditions, sent a contact report and abandoned the convoy. This last one I found most doubtful though.
My own thoughts are to wait until dark and pop up in the convoy lanes and try for what possible targets I have spotted during the daylight hours.

[Hakahura]

They did'nt spot you... great.

Rough seas and heavy fog will make detecting you very hard, your conning tower is a tiny object compared to a ship. If it's early war, ie pre Radar then this sounds quite feasible to me.

As to what a real uboat kaptain would do? Who knows, I should imagine that varies from kaptain to Kaptain and day to day.

[Brag]

Use the weather to your advantage. As long as you can see enough through your scope, it is realistic enough. Go for them! :up:

[minute]

Hi 3Jane


It's not clear from your post, were you attacking during daylight hours? I suppose those 140 meters, were they 140 meters distance when you were submerged?

I would not be too surprised if a periscope or even the top of the conning tower would not be spotted from 140m on rough weather with heavy fog. Sometimes weather on the high seas can be that bad...


As about targetting and hitting something on that weather, it's not that impossible. If you read some of the stories on uboat.net you'll see that seasoned kaleuns did their job against quite adverse conditions... I suspect being able to track a ship with the scope on that kind of weather was not too realistic, but in real life if you were really close and having shadowed the convoy for a while would be enough calculate a torpedo shot at a small distance.

[3Jane]

Hi 3Jane


It's not clear from your post, were you attacking during daylight hours? I suppose those 140 meters, were they 140 meters distance when you were submerged?

I would not be too surprised if a periscope or even the top of the conning tower would not be spotted from 140m on rough weather with heavy fog. Sometimes weather on the high seas can be that bad...


As about targetting and hitting something on that weather, it's not that impossible. If you read some of the stories on uboat.net you'll see that seasoned kaleuns did their job against quite adverse conditions... I suspect being able to track a ship with the scope on that kind of weather was not too realistic, but in real life if you were really close and having shadowed the convoy for a while would be enough calculate a torpedo shot at a small distance.

Sorry, I should have clarified. My attacks weere in the daylight hours, about 16:15 with heavy fog. When avoiding detection by the escorts the 140 metres was depth rather than distance. Beneath the convoy with the escorts being at about 600 metres to 2,000 metres distant from my submerged location.

[Dizoak]

depending on what year it is, that convoy mightve taken an air attack (could explain the burning merchies upon your arrival)

as for what a historical captain would have done, it again, depends on the date.
if its early in the war, he probably would have risked surfacing for the attack, knowing that the escorts would have had a bad chance spotting you in the weather.
if its after 1940-41 they would have stayed done and tried shadowing it for a while, hoping the weather would clear a little for a better chance at getting good shots in.
if its after '42 they might have just taken what shots they could take at the time, and then tried slipping away lickity-split like.

i might be wrong about this, but if it were me, what with the drastic technological advances happening at the time, i would have tried being as bold as possible without getting myself killed. (which sometimes means just letting them go)

[3Jane]

Thanks for replying everyone.This was the convoy in question. I finaly opted for a long slow aproach with hydrophone guidance and periscope attack. I forgot to mention that this is in August '40, sorry. Managed four large cargo vessels with forward and rear tubes. Had to dive fairly fast though after the fourth shot as the time taken turning to line up the rear tubes gave the escorts time to get a rough fix after the first torpedo hit. Fuel is not too far from the red line now so I'm not sure about flogging the fuel reserves through that sea for a second aproach from the front, home to willhelmshaven and tea I think.
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/7512/stormconvoyou7.png

[Dizoak]

yeah thats SOME rough weather. i think if it were me i would have turned right towards them from the start, tried to sprint into a position about 2000 meters ahead or so and just sat and waited. again, sometimes no matter what you do, you can't safely get into position on the first or even second try. in those cases its just best to let them go...if you can stomach that. it looks like you werent THAT far off, and remember that rough weather can sometimes play havoc with ASDIC, sometimes its good to just save a game then try different approaches and see what doesnt get you killed.

[3Jane]

yeah thats SOME rough weather. i think if it were me i would have turned right towards them from the start, tried to sprint into a position about 2000 meters ahead or so and just sat and waited. again, sometimes no matter what you do, you can't safely get into position on the first or even second try. in those cases its just best to let them go...if you can stomach that. it looks like you werent THAT far off, and remember that rough weather can sometimes play havoc with ASDIC, sometimes its good to just save a game then try different approaches and see what doesnt get you killed.
You are right about it looking close. Actualy I was quite shocked when I looked at the screen shot afterwards. Didn't realise how close that forward escort was. I normaly don't use the external view as an extra eye for target spotting and manuvers etc, I just wanted the screen shot for illustration.

[robbo180265]

depending on what year it is, that convoy mightve taken an air attack (could explain the burning merchies upon your arrival)

as for what a historical captain would have done, it again, depends on the date.
if its early in the war, he probably would have risked surfacing for the attack, knowing that the escorts would have had a bad chance spotting you in the weather.
if its after 1940-41 they would have stayed done and tried shadowing it for a while, hoping the weather would clear a little for a better chance at getting good shots in.
if its after '42 they might have just taken what shots they could take at the time, and then tried slipping away lickity-split like.
i might be wrong about this, but if it were me, what with the drastic technological advances happening at the time, i would have tried being as bold as possible without getting myself killed. (which sometimes means just letting them go)


I'm reading "Iron Coffins" at the moment and from what I've read so far I'd say that Dizoak is spot on here.I was amazed at how many surface attacks they made in the early part of the war. Sometimes if the weather was really bad they'd even outrun the escorts on the surface as well.