The Silent Hunter 4 TDC discussion

[heartc]

TDC instructional video:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108689

Well, they almost got it. Almost. They made one small mistake which however has a big negative effect on the usefullness of the position keeper.

Take a look at the lower dial of the position keeper. You will notice it displays and updates the GYRO ANGLES (just like the green line on the attack map) but instead it should be the TARGET BEARING.
There are two ideas behind the position keeper: It should continuesly update the fire solution, taking ownship movement into account (which it does perfectly), but it should also continuesly provide the target position (via bearing and range). Without a bearing readout, we miss a MAJOR feature of the TDC: iRL and in SHI, you were able to CHECK your fire solution after entering the data by watching whether or not the actual target bearing that you can see through the scope and the TDC bearing readout stayed the same. If those two bearings started to drift apart, you knew your solution was not the best, and the faster they drifted apart, the worse it was and you knew your torps are going to miss. If it stayed the same or differed only slowly, you knew the solution was pretty accurate at least if you fire soon and the range was not too great in the later case (when differing slowly).

If the solution was bad, you could easily adjust it by changing target speed, i.e. if the target crosses your periscope bearings faster than your TDC showed, you had to increase target speed for example and vice versa.

The funny thing is that actually in the manual of SHIV when you check the TDC description section you will read them describing that possibility of "checking" the accuracy of the solution and INDEED, where we now have the Ship name read out in the header above the two dials, on the pic in the manual there is this readout: "Target 10, 010" and indeed the lower dial also shows the bearing of 010, not GYRO ANGLES as it does now. It baffles me that they changed that and I wonder why.

A small work around might be to note the difference between gyro angles and actual bearing and watch out that this difference stays the same, however this is inaccurate, needs you constantly calculating and would work only for a rather short time since the difference *must* change over time.


Otherwise I think the game is in fact awesome. Especially cause I didn't even know if it will run at all since I'm only on 1.8 GHz, 512 RAM and 9800Pro, but in fact it runs better than SHIII for me (time compression way better, loading times shorter, runs fluid with some settings I don't care for anyway turned off and the gfx card tuned for performance in the control panel). But I hope they correct the TDC, because being able to actually check your solution for accuracy before firing was a MAJOR feature iRL and in SHI.

[elanaiba]

I'm not sure I get the problem right

The arrows superimposed on the lower dial mark the gyro angle for the selected torpedo tube.

But the bearing to the target is read on the top of the line. Draw a line between the centers of the upper and lower dials and the intersection with the two dials will give you the AOB (for the top one) and the bearing (bottom one).

On a dial, read the "relative" value on the inner ring, and the "absolute" value on the outter ring.

See this scan from Norman Friedman's book "Us submarines" through 1945".

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/6318/0819804bs7.th.jpg (http://img104.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0819804bs7.jpg)

[heartc]

Holy crap. That might well be right. I'm not sure if I'm with you, but I have some idea and will have to check it out asap.

Thanks for providing the image scan! Too bad sims do not come with proper manuals anymore, might have spared me from possibly submitting false claims.

If a mod reads this, please go ahead and flag the topic as "Resolved" or something, since my change of the header is only visible inside the thread. Thanks.

[heartc]

Nope, I'm afraid my initial observation is indeed right. I just checked it out again in-game. Take a look at the image scan elanaiba provided. What we do have on the position keeper in game are the two lower right hand dials. What we do NOT have is a RELATIVE TARGET BEARING (not TRUE BEARING) readout, something similar to what you see on the right hand side in the upper half of the image - actually a numerical readout where it says "Bearing Degrees". We need a TDC output for relative target bearing so that we can compare relative (sighted) target bearing with computed relative target bearing. When you look at the image scan again, you can even see a "Bearing Error" readout which assisted in determining the solution error. We don't neccessarily need this since it would be redundant, but sure enough for the position keeper we need a RELATIVE target bearing output.

Hasn't anybody else noticed this or am I really missing something here? SHI had it, too, as a numerical readout similar to the one in the image.


In fact I think what elanaiba said might indeed be right, I will check again some time later, but then it is a VERY arkward and highly inaccurate (since hard to read) way for the game to provide relative target bearing, especially when we are talking about small deviations between sighted and computed relative bearing which is the nature of the whole checking technique.

[Arrowhead2k1]

You're absolutely right. It would be awesome to have a way to check your solution without having to fire a shot aswell.

[nattydread]

I have to admit, I was concerned there would be some mistakes going from the U-boat TDC to the US TDC, being that SHIV seemed more or a less a re-dressing of SHIII. I hope they resolve it soon. Things like this makes the difficulty in finding the game not so frustrating.

[heartc]

You're absolutely right. It would be awesome to have a way to check your solution without having to fire a shot aswell.

Yes, and it's also how they did it iRL. ;) It was the second most important function of the TDC.

At first I didn't notice it and thought "hey look, seems they got it right", but then after I entered the data for my first target (I went right into the campaign), I was like "Uhm. OK, now where is the bearing? Where is the bearing readout??" ;)

Really, what makes me wonder the most is when you check out the manual and look closely at the image provided in the TDC description section, you WILL see a numerical relative target bearing readout in the "header line" where we now get the ship type provided instead after ID'ing, and they TALK about the Position Keeper helping in checking and fine-tuning the solution.

[Der Teddy Bar]

heartc,
It would help a lot if you could post some images of the issue.

[StandingCow]

The distances of ships was confusing to me... I would look... and it would be like 2k... then submerge moving in the same direction, surface and all the sudden be like 6k behind or something, and they were not moving fast....

Hmm..

[jmr]

Would love to hear Neal's comment on this.

[heartc]

heartc,
It would help a lot if you could post some images of the issue.

I'm at work right now, but I wouldn't really know how to visualize it anyway. Basicly, what I'm saying can be summarized in that we need a target relative bearing readout (at best numerical / "digital"), as you can see in the scan above.

I mean, this is the *position keeper*. How do you pinpoint a position? By bearing and range. The position keeper is not really wrong - it's working perfectly - it's just that an essential readout is missing. It shouldn't be too hard to add this since the target relative bearing must be known and updated by the position keeper already as it is now, otherwise it wouldn't work at all. It's just that there is no proper readout for it like there was iRL and in SHI. And when looking at the manual it seems like there once was such a readout in SHIV, too.

[elanaiba]

You do have a bearing readout, just as in the war versions of the TDC.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5688/tdcstuffam2.jpg

I think there's a bug, though, and the position keeper will not update the bearing once you use the periscope lock feature. Try to just attack ships without the lock, and see if it works correctly.

[heartc]

Well, I already thought that this is what you described in your initial response. However, if that is all there is, it is a highly inadequate and gross method of displaying relative target bearing to check for solution errors, especially on a tiny PC monitor. From your image scan and SHI, I got the impression that iRL they indeed had an additional numerical bearing readout. Did anyone check the manual yet and is seeing what I'm seeing there?

[elanaiba]

The real US TDCs that I've seen in pics didn't have the digital readout for bearing error that Friedman has drawn there.

Granted, they had a second relative bearing dial (actually a pair) which helps to read it precisely. But the interface in the game was meant to be kept simple and straightforward.

Perhaps the future will bring a clearer readout.

[gmohr]

elan,

I'm not sure what you are saying makes sense, or I'm mis-understanding you.

Examine the pic of the SHIV TDC. You are saying that the relative bearing is read from the inner dial, but from what index? As far as I can tell, the inner ring of the lower dial is a fixed compass rose around your ship, and the "arm" moving across your bow is the gyro angle of the solution as read against that inner ring. In your example, the relative bearing is reading zero, but It will *always* read zero....

Edit: Ahh, it seems that the outer ring of the bottom dial represents true heading of own ship. It's basically a compass when read against the inner ring "ownship" image. So, that sums up the bottom dial... ownship heading on outer ring, gyro angle on arm.

That leaves the top dial yet to be understood by my challenged brain hehe.

[elanaiba]

Draw a line between the centers of the two dials, that will be your index.

The inner ring is not always fixed, its rotating in connection to the bearing. So if the bearing to target is 90, you'll see the submarine pointing to the left.

But, there's a bug when using the lock on target feature, which sometimes locks the inner ring in the "bearing 0 is up" position.

[joea]

Dude you guys have made one of the most detailed analog FC computing device sims I've heard of yet it looks like. :cool: Congrats for this little triumph (no can't get SH4 yet). :-?

[elanaiba]

I'm a sucker for little machines that do clever things, and I always try to make the player use them "as in real life".

[gmohr]

Not in my experience... Nothing I do can make that "ownship" picture change from a north/south orientation on that inner ring of the bottom dial, and zero is always at the 12 oclock position... I've tried setting up a complete solution in subschool without doing a periscope "lock". I get everything looking great then turn the sub 90 degrees... that inner dial never moves.

[Onkel Neal]

Would love to hear Neal's comment on this.


I'm no TDC expert but I can hit ships with it :)

I do use the bearing rate on the inner dial to check my firing solution, it works very well. Good scope management means taking quick looks, not prolonged exposure, and before I raise the scope clear of the water, I check the TDC target bearing and align the scope on the same bearing. When the scope breaks the water (btw, excellent water run off effects, why is it there aren't 50 posts in this forum raving about that?!) if my target if close to the crosshairs, I know I have a good solution. If the target is in front or behind, I recheck the range, adjust the speed setting in the TDC, and drop the scope for another couple minutes. By the time my target is 1200 yards or closer, I am getting a good feeling and ordering the quartermaster to make room in my medals chest.

If the target has zigged, I turn off the red position keeper light, reset, and start over.

Hope that helps,
Neal

[gmohr]

Neil,

Please hook me up here, cause obviously it's me that is missing something... When you are about to check your solution after having let some time pass from setting it up, you said you get the relative bearing from the TDC off the inner dial (on the bottom dial I assume). Exactly how. What index mark to you use to read the bearing. Is the "ownship" picture always in a north/south orientation for you?

Edit: HANG ON! I just got it to move! Let me experiment some and try to figure out why it's getting locked... (i didn't hit periscope lock either)

[elanaiba]

It gets locked for port side targets... not for starboard side. Bug found....

[gmohr]

OK! Progress...

I figured out exactly the sequence of events that is making this bottom dial break. Bear with me on this...

1) I setup the sub school torpedo attack scenario
2) My ship is north to south oriented, the target is crossing from the NW to the SE on a course of 135.
3) I enter the speed, range, and AoB. and Instantly that magic inner dial rotates to match the target bearing (YAY)
4) Here's where it goes horribly wrong... I click on the Position Keeper switch... INSTANTLY, the inner dial goes back to a North South heading again.... making it useless if I understand correctly.

Any ideas?

[gmohr]

It gets locked for port side targets... not for starboard side. Bug found....

You're kidding! Testing...

[NefariousKoel]

It gets locked for port side targets... not for starboard side. Bug found....

Excellent job Elanaiba:up:

[gmohr]

Confirmed!! Elan, you're brilliant!

As an additional piece of info, I setup a saved game so I could repeatedly test this, I moved my ship so that the target was at about 30 (starboard side), with the target passing right to left across my bow, and setup a solution, and sure enough the Position Tracker button didn't maul my bearing indicator...

So then I tracked the target and watched as the generated bearing contunued to move toward zero as the targed crossed my bow. All was well until it hit zero degrees generated bearing... then the inner dial locked!

So to put a finer point on it, the inner dial is not capable of showing a bearing less than zero degrees....

Neil, if you have some channel to the developers, could you please pass this info on to them? This is a really *REALLY* subtle problem that they may not be aware of, yet is extremely important to us manual monkies, as I'm sure you'd agree.

[Lio]

damn your right its buggy on one side and not the other :damn:
Ill agree with gmohr, Neal if you can plz pass it to the devs. With this neat little feature then we dont even need the chrono thingy do the timing for us since its much easier to check your solution, so you can calc guestemate it.
i love these US subs already :yep: to bad they dont come with salvos like the uboats :rotfl:

[gmohr]

It would also be *wonderful* if they could put a small index marker between the inner and outer dials at exactly 12 o'clock, so we could use that to read a precise generated bearing. I can be a bit tough to get an exact reading on that without something to refer to.

[SteamWake]

Wasent there a similar bug with sh3 .... something about 180 bearing.

[Killjoy]

confirmed here too.. someone post this in to the bug thread

[gmohr]

Done.

[Rykaird]

I need a favor. Can someone post the settings they are using in the torp school that get them a hit right under the stack - particularly AoB?

I'm using a target speed of 9 knots (as measured). My sub is stationary and I don't move it during the school.

I'm firing at the point the target is bearing 348, which is fairly close (but not perfect) approximation of a zero gyro angle. Torp is set to fast. Bow cap is open.

Stadimeter reported distance at the moment of firing is approximately 1010 yards.

I'm using the AoB at the moment of firing - not trying to predict the AoB at impact, and this gives me an AoB of 70 degrees starboard when I measure it on the nav map.

My torpedo keeps hitting well aft. I know I'm doing something wrong, but I'm simply unable to figure out what it is after dozens of attempts. Should I be inputting data into the TDC based on the moment I fire, or some prediction of where everything will be at the moment of impact?

I can hit the ship dead center but only by artificially setting the target speed faster than the 9 knots I am actually measuring it at.

Thanks for your help here. I'm so used to the "Fast 90" method I'm really struggling.

[ryuzu]

Well, I already thought that this is what you described in your initial response. However, if that is all there is, it is a highly inadequate and gross method of displaying relative target bearing to check for solution errors, especially on a tiny PC monitor. From your image scan and SHI, I got the impression that iRL they indeed had an additional numerical bearing readout. Did anyone check the manual yet and is seeing what I'm seeing there?

If you look a bit more closely at the manual, what you read as

"Target 10 001"

Is actually

"Target ID 001"

:|\\

Sorry, no bearing readout to be unlocked there...

r.

[RedHammer]

I dont know what u guys are talking about here (I have a small clue.) But if the devs listen to u and fix this bug, then in a few weeks/months when I become a experienced user of TDC and understand the problem more, then I will probably thank you again.

Thanks :D

S!

SK

[Onkel Neal]

Confirmed!! Elan, you're brilliant!

As an additional piece of info, I setup a saved game so I could repeatedly test this, I moved my ship so that the target was at about 30 (starboard side), with the target passing right to left across my bow, and setup a solution, and sure enough the Position Tracker button didn't maul my bearing indicator...

So then I tracked the target and watched as the generated bearing contunued to move toward zero as the targed crossed my bow. All was well until it hit zero degrees generated bearing... then the inner dial locked!

So to put a finer point on it, the inner dial is not capable of showing a bearing less than zero degrees....

Neil, if you have some channel to the developers, could you please pass this info on to them? This is a really *REALLY* subtle problem that they may not be aware of, yet is extremely important to us manual monkies, as I'm sure you'd agree.


Yes, I will. This is the kind of feature that the devs take seriously. They know they TDC and setting up firing solutions is the heart of the game. Great catch. :up:

[Lio]

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4121/pk2fe7.jpg

you can see it here, to get a idea of the bug. I have the T3 tanker targeted and Posistion keeper on to track it. Ive deliberatly set the speed to some 19 kts to make the solution wrong so you get a idea of what you can do with it.

the "12 clock PK marker bearing" is the bearing to the target with the data that have been put in to the TDC etc. You can see its on 22 degrees withs is the same as the marker on the map. While the true bearing to the target is in fact some 36 degrees.
Anyway about the bug. When the marker passes 0 degree bearing the wheel over on the position keeper will get stuck and be locked. So you cant read the angle of error from it. It happens when your track something to the starboard side or when something pass from port to starbaord side.

sry for the english and spelling:up:

edit: Neal maybe you could also ask em to add like a little marker/pointer to the outer dial, that way it will be a weee bit easier to spot the bearing. As it is now, it can be a bit tricky to read it off precisly. :D

[Charos]

Well, they almost got it. Almost. They made one small mistake which however has a big negative effect on the usefullness of the position keeper.

Take a look at the lower dial of the position keeper. You will notice it displays and updates the GYRO ANGLES (just like the green line on the attack map) but instead it should be the TARGET BEARING.


Heartc is on the money. :up:

The position keeper requires fixing.

Easy to see - go to the Torpedo training mission with the cruiser.

If you switch to easy settings you can instantly work out the cruiser is at AOB=80.

AOB will not (should not) vary as the cruiser is on a constant course and so is your sub (North).

But take a look at what the AOB indicator and the position keeper (upper dial) its CHANGING AOB.

It looks like this :

Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 320 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 40 Degrees.
Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 330 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 50 Degrees.
Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 340 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 60 Degrees.
Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 350 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 70 Degrees.
Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 360 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 80 Degrees.


The AOB should not be changing - Someone wired the position keeper back to front.:yep:

[ParaB]

Great job guys in finding this bug! I've noticed that a couple of times my manual targetting was way off, now I know why.

Well done! :up:

[NefariousKoel]

And excellent example Lio.

I was always wondering why my angles were off. That demonstrates the problem quite well.

[heartc]

Charos, that looks about right to me. When the target relative bearing changes, the AOB must change too, (except when target runs a circle around you with you in the middle).

Looks however as if the bug causing confusion in the first place has been identified. Great job guys! I've already thought I was seeing things when at one point the inner ring didn't move (and I was about to report this in the forum again), and then I did see it moving. Until reading the recent replies here I wasn't sure at all anymore if I was maybe drinking too much or something lol. :up:

[Rilder]

Pic of TDC/attack map


I know your all Manual fanatics and such but a couple times when I'd go into attack map on auto solution (Tambor/Gar class) it wouldn't have that gyro angle thing so I'd have no idea were my torpedoes would go... finally tried with a Pourpois from the tutoral and it worked but could this be a bug?

[heartc]

And excellent example Lio.

I was always wondering why my angles were off. That demonstrates the problem quite well.
Maybe I misunderstood you, but just to avoid confusion, I think what Lio wanted to demonstrate with that pic is how you USE the position keeper generally to find out solution errors, not showcase the bug. In his example, he set target speed (deliberately) too high so the position keeper generates relative target bearings that are "outrunning" the actual relative target bearings you can see through the scope/TBT. So you would have to lower target speed to correct for it.

P.S. Lio: Great pic. But instead of "True Bearing" rather say "Sighted Bearing" or "Actual Bearing", since "True Bearing" already has a meaning: Bearings aligned to North, or compass bearings. The opposite to Relative Bearing. So in your example, the target at a Sighted Relative Bearing of about 36 deg is at a True Bearing of 216 deg. ;)

[Rykaird]

Easy to see - go to the Torpedo training mission with the cruiser.

If you switch to easy settings you can instantly work out the cruiser is at AOB=80.

AOB will not (should not) vary as the cruiser is on a constant course and so is your sub (North).

But take a look at what the AOB indicator and the position keeper (upper dial) its CHANGING AOB.

It looks like this :

Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 320 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 40 Degrees.
Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 330 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 50 Degrees.
Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 340 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 60 Degrees.
Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 350 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 70 Degrees.
Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 360 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 80 Degrees.


The AOB should not be changing - Someone wired the position keeper back to front.:yep:

Why wouldn't AoB change again? If the target is moving and I'm stationary - as in the torp school example - and he's moving from my left to my right, shouldn't AoB be rising to 90 as I am eventually sitting directly off his starboard side?

Sigh. I'll probably have to wait for the new Wiki to get this stuff.

[Observer]

Easy to see - go to the Torpedo training mission with the cruiser.

If you switch to easy settings you can instantly work out the cruiser is at AOB=80.

AOB will not (should not) vary as the cruiser is on a constant course and so is your sub (North).

But take a look at what the AOB indicator and the position keeper (upper dial) its CHANGING AOB.

It looks like this :

Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 320 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 40 Degrees.
Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 330 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 50 Degrees.
Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 340 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 60 Degrees.
Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 350 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 70 Degrees.
Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 360 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 80 Degrees.


The AOB should not be changing - Someone wired the position keeper back to front.:yep:
Why wouldn't AoB change again? If the target is moving and I'm stationary - as in the torp school example - and he's moving from my left to my right, shouldn't AoB be rising to 90 as I am eventually sitting directly off his starboard side?

Sigh. I'll probably have to wait for the new Wiki to get this stuff.


As the target's relative motion draws it from port to starboard (torpedo attack mission in submarine school) the targets AOB will change. This is easily demonstrated by drawing a constant target course and measuring target AOB at various points on the track. The image below shows the change in AOB as the target progresses on its track.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/plotting5.jpg

Slightly OT: This image was done to demonstrate how manual plotting should be done on the attack plot using the positon keeper function on the TDC to refine the targets solution. This is the complete series from the initial observation to final solution on a non-maneuvering contact:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/plotting1.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/plotting2.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/plotting3.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/plotting4.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/plotting5.jpg

[Onkel Neal]

Good job, Lio, all you guys. First class bug report. :up:

[Observer]

One last point on the images above. Doing manual targeting well (data entry via the TDC) requires good strong plotting fundamentals. The plotting technique show above is standard USN practice for surface contact solution development, and should be used as a complement to data entry via the TDC.

This series is intended to show the changes necessary for the attack plot to actually become useful when used in conjunction with the PK mode on the TDC.

One other point about the TDC. When entering PK mode, the ownship dial always goes to 0 degrees relative regardless of the contacts actual relative bearing. This may be related to the PK issue noted earlier in this thread.

[elanaiba]

Confirmed!! Elan, you're brilliant!


It's true :D but some other guy found the bug and solved it already....

[ParaB]

One thing that's really driving me crazy is the constant resetting of torpedo settings in the TDC (full manual targetting). I set all forward torps for fast speed, impact detonator, set spread angle and depth. Then I open all torpedo doors. After a short time I hear clicking noises and the detonator has switched back to magnetic, as well as screwing over my angle input. The torpedo depth seems to stay as input.

Another annoyance: the tube doors seem to close again each time you choose another tube. In SH3 I could use the 3d-switches to keep the doors open, in SH4 there aren't any anymore...

PLEASE, dear devs, fix this.

:nope:

[TopCat]

Dunno if anyone pointed this out already. But the target course (upper outer ring of the tdc) shows wrong values, as soon you press the red button for auto-calculating. When you feed the TDC manually with the correct values, the course is shown correctly, but as soon as you push the button, the outer rings make a jump and the target course is not correct any more.

[Lio]

And excellent example Lio.

I was always wondering why my angles were off. That demonstrates the problem quite well.
Maybe I misunderstood you, but just to avoid confusion, I think what Lio wanted to demonstrate with that pic is how you USE the position keeper generally to find out solution errors, not showcase the bug. In his example, he set target speed (deliberately) too high so the position keeper generates relative target bearings that are "outrunning" the actual relative target bearings you can see through the scope/TBT. So you would have to lower target speed to correct for it.

P.S. Lio: Great pic. But instead of "True Bearing" rather say "Sighted Bearing" or "Actual Bearing", since "True Bearing" already has a meaning: Bearings aligned to North, or compass bearings. The opposite to Relative Bearing. So in your example, the target at a Sighted Relative Bearing of about 36 deg is at a True Bearing of 216 deg. ;)

yes my screenshot demostrates how to use it. sry about the naming mix up :oops: ive played all subsims inbetween sh1,688i to sh4 and still cant figure out the names for all those different angles.
I also mixed up port and starboard side :damn: im noob and always get em wrong he he.

[Hitman]

It's true :D but some other guy found the bug and solved it already....

Sorry but I don't know if I'm missing something...is the bug solved or not? I mean, is there something that can be done to avoid it, or is this saved for a future patch?? Confused...:-?

[divo 637]

The original poster is correct. This is not working correctly. The issue is that it will work correctly sometimes then stops working.

The PK should mimic a LOS diagram. So that own ship will not always point straight up.

The Own Ship ring (the bottom one) should point to the true bearing to the target at the top. And the target ring should point to the true bearing of your ship (so 180 deg out from where own ship ring points).

The bug somehow forces a relative bearing of 0 to the top of the ring.

Watch the training video that is a sticky. It works fine at the TBT and when he goes below to the scope it works fine for a few seconds then it abruptly jumps to the realative bearing of zero at the top of the ring and does not change on the next several updates. You have to be looking for it. It happend quite fast.

This may have something to do with the inputs to the PK so that UbI had designed in some criteria on the way this work (maybe something about bearing inputs). Not sure. but this needs to be fixed.

[Spectre-63]

HI all -

started a second career today using manual TDC and things did not go nearly as well as I'd hoped. :( :nope:

The first thing I noticed was that virtually all of my range estimations (using the stadimiter) were well short of the target's actual range. I think I'm using it correctly: setting the horizontal line in the periscope along the waterline of the target, selecting the correct ID in the recognition manual, bringing up the image splitter/stadimeter, and placing the waterline in the top image on the top-most point in the bottom image. At first I thought I was mis-identifying the targets, but the sampan fishing trawlers couldn't be misidentified because there was only one with the correct number of sails.

The other thing I noticed is that, over time, the position keeper appears to get confused as to where the target actually is. The only thing I can think of is that my constant re-configuration of the target info is confusing it?? The lack of a functioning chrono is certainly hurting my speed estimates, but I think I can overcome that. I've got the 'turn off map updates' off, so I'm cross-referencing where the target appears on the map with where the TDC thinks the target is (white X with a tail indicating direction of movement). :doh:

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!!!

[Gizzmoe]

I sticky this for a few days.

[DJSatane]

I have few notes about manual TDC.

1. Point to Shoot problems in SH4
You know how in SH3 sometimes you would to setup your solution for point to shoot? Where in sh3 you would setup speed to 0 and then basically you would have it set for point to shoot, wherever bearing you look with periscope thats where torp would go? Very good for finishing disabled ships or good quick choice for a destroyer closing in below 1000m head on etc...

Well in SH4 things are very bad with this. You cannot setup point to shoot easily at all. Yes you can set speed to 0 etc... but even if you move periscope bearing to any location (makes no difference if you have position tracking keeper on or off) the firing solution will not adjust until you click send data to all 3 range, AOB and speed parts . Then and only then solution will reflect to shooting torpedo directly towards where you looking. If you move periscope a bit in any direction you cant fire to where you see until AGAIN you click all of those 3....very annoying. Remember I am doing that with speed to 0. I wish someone fixed this!

Conclusion I am afraid based on this observation, when you setup a solution for a locked target and click send to TDC on all 3 inputs, then if you unlock to maybe intuatively fire using the solution a bit ahead or behind the ship, I bet the solution wont use the bearing of periscope you using any more unless you reclick all 3 send to tdc buttons...very very annoying and compared to SH3 inferior.

I hope someone can fix this with a mod maybe so that we can click only 1 button to have data sent to tdc at once so that solution is updated based on where we point periscope.

2. Attack map problems and lack of features

In SH3 you seen all the TDC dials when you were in attack map... in SH4 you cannot see them except for torp tubes... If we had all the TDC dials there THEN you could not only visually check your firing solution but at the same time adjust speed etc... Currently you have to go through all the hoops clicking back to persicope to reinput stuff, WHY NOT HAVE STADIMETER/AOB/SPEED available at same time in attack map? come on. Maybe someone can mod this in? And come on why arent things like attack map binded to a button? Its annoying to have to click it to get to it. Buttons like F G H R are not used why not use them for few things that are in those sub menus? I know we can bind ourselves but come on!

Thanks for your time all, keep up this good TDC discussion thread up.

[Lio]

DJSatane, you can check your solution without going through your range settings etc.
If you click on the position kepper(PK) handler, to switch from torp input to position keeper data, you have all your info on your solution right there on those 2 dials.

indeed one can argue weather or not the gyro angle should be linked with the scope like it was in SH3, but, this might have been how it was done on US subs, im not sure.

But i do agree it would be nice if you could somehow ajust the TDC with the bearing of your scope. But again it actualy goes against the whole idea behind the PK. reason why you have to keep your periscope in aligned with the target in SH3 was that you didnt have a PK.
You made a solution but that solution degraded rapidly over time if you didnt have your scope locked to the target. That isnt so with the PK since it do all the tracking for you. It actualy gives you the advantage to compare PK target bearing with your own sighting bearing, so you can evaluate the accuracy of the solution.

[Seadogs]

I've got the 'turn off map updates' off, so I'm cross-referencing where the target appears on the map with where the TDC thinks the target is (white X with a tail indicating direction of movement). :doh:


I am using the same method to train myself on manual TDC. It works great. I'd say it works even better than auto tracking.

Having problems with my ranges too tho. Using the method above I can easily correct it, but I don't plan on playing like that forever.

Can anyone provide a good zoomed screeny of perfect standimeter alignment? It would help alot as I think it's an issue of finding the sweet spot.

[ryuzu]

HI all -

started a second career today using manual TDC and things did not go nearly as well as I'd hoped. :( :nope:

The first thing I noticed was that virtually all of my range estimations (using the stadimiter) were well short of the target's actual range. I think I'm using it correctly: setting the horizontal line in the periscope along the waterline of the target, selecting the correct ID in the recognition manual, bringing up the image splitter/stadimeter, and placing the waterline in the top image on the top-most point in the bottom image. At first I thought I was mis-identifying the targets, but the sampan fishing trawlers couldn't be misidentified because there was only one with the correct number of sails.

The other thing I noticed is that, over time, the position keeper appears to get confused as to where the target actually is. The only thing I can think of is that my constant re-configuration of the target info is confusing it?? The lack of a functioning chrono is certainly hurting my speed estimates, but I think I can overcome that. I've got the 'turn off map updates' off, so I'm cross-referencing where the target appears on the map with where the TDC thinks the target is (white X with a tail indicating direction of movement). :doh:

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!!!

Did you check what measurement units the stadimeter is giving you?

If you're using imperial measurements, the units on the stadimeter dial are yards - not feet... There are 3 feet in a yard.

Oh, and the stadimeter measurement is supposed to be done while the scope is at high magnification (although this would lead to over rather than under reading).

r.

[shawnyp420]

Whats up with the auto-solution? I'm not exactly sure why its not working...But i'm hardly hitting ships here!! At the moment I'm using the torpedo school to debug the situation. I lock up the cruiser. I wait till the carrot is green. Set torpedo speed at high. Set fuse to contact and depth to about 10 feet and open the door. I shoot but the torpedo goes way left or misses...WTF? Shouldn't the auto-solution work dead center every time?

I'm getting so frusterated with this game...It's almost unplayable...But it LOOKS SO GOOD!!! Waaahhhhh.....

[Dizoak]

leave your torpedo's on slow, they have more range and you can still hit a fast moving target with one. try to lead the cruiser a little bit, give yourself some steam and aim for shots at no more than 1400 meters range. remember to use the position keeper to update your solution JUST before you shoot. (also open your tube door before you shoot)

i do it in this order just to make sure i dont forget a step: lock target-open tube-do your torpedo programming (depth, set pistol, speed (if needed))-hit position keeper-depending on your tastes and the range to ship you might wait here and keep updating the position keeper-launch your tube. just rinse and repeat for any other tubes you want to shoot at the same target (just remember that if you switch tubes, your door will close and you have to reset all programming on a torpedo if you switch tubes before you shoot)

hope that isnt too confusing. good luck mate.

[rulle34]

Sorry, but I have read all the info about this and still can´t understand how to calculate speed in manual TDC. I hav used the navimap and mesured the time between two known points, but it could be done using "left click on the clock icon in the data tool" as it says in the manual. Can someone explain this to me in a better way. Im probably stupid but I can´t get it to work.
Please...:oops:

[gnirtS]

Bug in game, Auto speed measurment isn't implemented.
Use the chart method for now.

[Shrap123]

I really don't want to use the point and shoot option where it's all done for you nor do I want to sit there and do math or guess randomly. Is there another way or am I SOL till they fix the chronometer?

[dangchang]

One way to get the speed of the target is via the following.

1. Look for the ship you want to target on your map and get the CLOCK ready.

2. Take the pencil tool and place a marking towards the front of the ship.

3. When the ship touches that mark, start the timer and wait TWO minutes.

4. After the two minutes, place a marking where the ship was after the two minutes.

5. Use your ruler and connect your two markings and record the nautical miles.

6. Multiply the NMs by 60, then divide by two. That's the speed.

Example: (.4nm x 60) \ 2 = 12 Knots

Another example: The Mogami in the torpedo training mission moves at .3 NM for every two minutes. .3 x 60 is 18. 18 divided by two is 9. The Mogami is moving 9 knts.

I put auto aiming on to see what the speed really was.

9knts.

This is of course if you're using map contact updates.

[NefariousKoel]

I use two methods depending on how fast I need to shoot.

1) 3 Minute Method -

Mark contact's location and start the stopwatch running (or, if show on map is off, then mark range and bearing on nav map & start timer). After 3 minutes, repeat the process for his new location. Measure the distance between the 2 and multiply by 20.. (or multiply by 2 and take out the decimal point). This is the speed in knots.

It has an extra added bonus of giving you a decent heading of the target if you extend the line through the second one too. This can also help you get an AoB estimate if you measure from the line in front of the target.. to the target.. and point at your own ship to get the angle.

2)Quick shot Table -

The table in this thread is great for estimating speed at short ranges. I only use it if under 1750 yds range and near a side shot for the 10 second estimation.

The table is in this thread: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108454&highlight=speed+estimation+table
I think Ims_oid worked it up but I could be wrong. It's helpful.

[flyinj]

What is the most reliable way to reset the TDC and get a 'dead bearing' shot? I was engaging a docked frieghter in a port, and even though I set the target speed to 0, the torp wasn't shooting along the exact bearing of my periscope.

Also, I hate how the speed dial doesn't let you turn counterclockwise if you tick one past the zero speed mark. Is there another way to enter speed other than this dial?

[Lio]

What is the most reliable way to reset the TDC and get a 'dead bearing' shot? I was engaging a docked frieghter in a port, and even though I set the target speed to 0, the torp wasn't shooting along the exact bearing of my periscope.

Also, I hate how the speed dial doesn't let you turn counterclockwise if you tick one past the zero speed mark. Is there another way to enter speed other than this dial?

set speed to zero, set torp spread to zero then go to the stadimeater and dial in a range and click the send to TDC while you have your scope on the ship.

[Axon77]

This is a great topic here guys, I appreciate your expertise. My problem, however, is that I'm having trouble putting all these pieces of the puzzle together in the right order.

So, first, use the periscope and locate the target. Use high magnification to ID the ship and get the range. Enter the Range into the upper right dial. But how do you get the Bearing? Also, how do you orient the AOB picture in the dial with your sub?

I'm sorry that I'm so confused.

It would be nice it we had walkthrough with explanations for the TDC.

Thanks again,

Axon

[Spectre-63]

HI all -

started a second career today using manual TDC and things did not go nearly as well as I'd hoped. :( :nope:

The first thing I noticed was that virtually all of my range estimations (using the stadimiter) were well short of the target's actual range. I think I'm using it correctly: setting the horizontal line in the periscope along the waterline of the target, selecting the correct ID in the recognition manual, bringing up the image splitter/stadimeter, and placing the waterline in the top image on the top-most point in the bottom image. At first I thought I was mis-identifying the targets, but the sampan fishing trawlers couldn't be misidentified because there was only one with the correct number of sails.

The other thing I noticed is that, over time, the position keeper appears to get confused as to where the target actually is. The only thing I can think of is that my constant re-configuration of the target info is confusing it?? The lack of a functioning chrono is certainly hurting my speed estimates, but I think I can overcome that. I've got the 'turn off map updates' off, so I'm cross-referencing where the target appears on the map with where the TDC thinks the target is (white X with a tail indicating direction of movement). :doh:

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!!!

Did you check what measurement units the stadimeter is giving you?

How would I check that? Anyone got a quick conversion from yards to nm?

If you're using imperial measurements, the units on the stadimeter dial are yards - not feet... There are 3 feet in a yard.

Oh, and the stadimeter measurement is supposed to be done while the scope is at high magnification (although this would lead to over rather than under reading).

r.

I am using imperial measurements and I would expect that the proper information is being passed from the stadimeter to the PK. I am using high-magnification.

I know one other poster suggested it: can we get a picture of the correct stadimeter alignment? I'm guessing it's something I may be doing incorrectly, as my ranges are usually off by about 1/3rd. :o :cry:

[Shrap123]

Ok so assuming I use the table or manually calculate the speed how do I enter it in the TDC?

[Deep Six]

I concur with the above can Neal or one of the boys post a pic of a correctly aligned stadimeter on target.Neal Vid was awesome but with the screen a little small i was unsure if he was.
A.Aligning the Stadimeter id ON TOP of the target is completely covering the target

B.Aligning the Stadimeter where the Stad was just touching the HIGHEST part of the target i.e the mast head?
I have used both and my aim is still crap!!!....Just want to know what is right for stadimeter range input.

Deep six

[PeriscopeDepth]

HI all -

started a second career today using manual TDC and things did not go nearly as well as I'd hoped. :( :nope:

The first thing I noticed was that virtually all of my range estimations (using the stadimiter) were well short of the target's actual range. I think I'm using it correctly: setting the horizontal line in the periscope along the waterline of the target, selecting the correct ID in the recognition manual, bringing up the image splitter/stadimeter, and placing the waterline in the top image on the top-most point in the bottom image. At first I thought I was mis-identifying the targets, but the sampan fishing trawlers couldn't be misidentified because there was only one with the correct number of sails.

The other thing I noticed is that, over time, the position keeper appears to get confused as to where the target actually is. The only thing I can think of is that my constant re-configuration of the target info is confusing it?? The lack of a functioning chrono is certainly hurting my speed estimates, but I think I can overcome that. I've got the 'turn off map updates' off, so I'm cross-referencing where the target appears on the map with where the TDC thinks the target is (white X with a tail indicating direction of movement). :doh:

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!!!
Did you check what measurement units the stadimeter is giving you?
How would I check that? Anyone got a quick conversion from yards to nm?

If you're using imperial measurements, the units on the stadimeter dial are yards - not feet... There are 3 feet in a yard.

Oh, and the stadimeter measurement is supposed to be done while the scope is at high magnification (although this would lead to over rather than under reading).

r.
I am using imperial measurements and I would expect that the proper information is being passed from the stadimeter to the PK. I am using high-magnification.

I know one other poster suggested it: can we get a picture of the correct stadimeter alignment? I'm guessing it's something I may be doing incorrectly, as my ranges are usually off by about 1/3rd. :o :cry:

2000 yards = 1nm

[NefariousKoel]

How would I check that? Anyone got a quick conversion from yards to nm?


There is ~2000yards in one nautical mile. The Imperial system actually works with nautical ranges quite well.

[Lio]

I concur with the above can Neal or one of the boys post a pic of a correctly aligned stadimeter on target.Neal Vid was awesome but with the screen a little small i was unsure if he was.
A.Aligning the Stadimeter id ON TOP of the target is completely covering the target

B.Aligning the Stadimeter where the Stad was just touching the HIGHEST part of the target i.e the mast head?
I have used both and my aim is still crap!!!....Just want to know what is right for stadimeter range input.

Deep six

its hard to get a exact estimate. but tbh you dont need one. Thats why you fire in spreads :rock:

but you can try it out yourself. I cant do it any better then you can. Run a game with manual tdc and map updates, you can then try wich alot of different settings and see how it affects your position keeper marker.

[Charos]

Sorry for the incorrect information I posted before -- looks like Ive been too busy virtual flying instead of sailing

Good TDC article on Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_Data_Computer


I got Track angle mixed up with AOB. :damn:

[akdavis]

First of all, is anyone else having their torpedoes' detonation settings randomly reset after switching from influence to contact?

Also, does anyone know if there are, or can be enabled, keyboard commands for TDC and torpedo controls. A simple increase/decrease control for each of the torpedo settings (especially the need-to-use-it-quick spread dial), and for the current (range, AOB or speed) function of the TDC input would work wonders. I find the mouse very jumpy, slow and very aggravating to tendonitis.

Down those same lines, is there any way to navigate the ID book without having to click through every damn page to either find a ship you already know the identity of, or return to the page for a ship you just identified. A good feature addition would be the ability to enter text in the area beneath the flags and jump directly to a known class.

[Shrap123]

Once I get estimate the speed how do I enter that number in the TDC?

[Rykaird]

One way to get the speed of the target is via the following.

1. Look for the ship you want to target on your map and get the CLOCK ready.

2. Take the pencil tool and place a marking towards the front of the ship.

3. When the ship touches that mark, start the timer and wait TWO minutes.

4. After the two minutes, place a marking where the ship was after the two minutes.

5. Use your ruler and connect your two markings and record the nautical miles.

6. Multiply the NMs by 60, then divide by two. That's the speed.

Example: (.4nm x 60) \ 2 = 12 Knots

Another example: The Mogami in the torpedo training mission moves at .3 NM for every two minutes. .3 x 60 is 18. 18 divided by two is 9. The Mogami is moving 9 knts.

I put auto aiming on to see what the speed really was.

9knts.

This is of course if you're using map contact updates.

Yup, the Mogami moves at 9 knots, and your measurement technique is right on. But if you enter 9 knots into the TDC you will consistently hit the cruiser, but well aft. Yes, with the outer door open before the shot, updating just before shooting, and really fast fingers. This error is part of the central mystery with the TDC. I have to enter 11 to 12 knots to get him amidships. Still no good explanation as to why.

[Shrap123]

...But if you enter 9 knots into the TDC

For the love of god, HOW!?!

[akdavis]

...But if you enter 9 knots into the TDC

For the love of god, HOW!?!

On the TDC dial in the upper right it the button on the bottom on the far right. Just spin the dial and hit the arrow up top to send. The timer button will not enter a speed.

[ccruner13]

;less than each value means (in this order): stationary, slow, medium and fast speed ; over the last value means very fast speed
Merchant=0.1,8,12,35 ;[kts]
Warship=0.1,8,19,35 ;[kts] including uboats
Air=0.1,8,19,35 ;[kts]
Convoy=0.1,8,12,35 ;[kts]

assuming you have map contacts on this makes it a little easier to guess...

also. when you use the report contact button in your captains log you estimate their speed automatically so thats an even better way

[pzGrenadier]

A long time lurker here, just registered recently. This is a great community and I've learned so much just by reading post after post full of knowledge. As my first post, I'd like to contribute on this TDC discussion about something I found online. While searching for a detailed TDC manual/tutorial online, it mentioned in the fleet submarine manual that the use of TDC will be listed in the Navy gunnery manual. Therefore, a further search leads me to this gunnery manual for firing torpedo from destroyer, which can be found here (http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/USNAVY/CHAPTER-27-C.html). I'd like to borrow a picture from this page that contains detailed information about the dials quite similar to what we have on TDC in SH4.

http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/USNAVY/CHAPTER-27-FIGURE-27C3-FC-PAGE-370.jpg

[Steeltrap]

Some interesting material in this thread.

Kind of a problem that the sim is released with a major flaw in the TDC/PK functionalities.

Still, the devs have been quick to issue a patch, so if they jump on this quickly then no real harm done (assuming you accept that a sim about submarines should be released with the mechanism for aiming torpedos not working properly....:huh: ). Makes it hard to play as it is, however.

[Lio]

Some interesting material in this thread.

Kind of a problem that the sim is released with a major flaw in the TDC/PK functionalities.

Still, the devs have been quick to issue a patch, so if they jump on this quickly then no real harm done (assuming you accept that a sim about submarines should be released with the mechanism for aiming torpedos not working properly....:huh: ). Makes it hard to play as it is, however.

call it early war problems :rotfl:

nahh ofc i hope they get it pathced up to.

[Cmdr Mathias]

Right on Neal.

That is exactly how I have been checking my solution. If TDC says a bearing, I rotate the periscope to that bearing and send it up. In most cases I adjust the target speed and consider this a last look before firing. AOB can be an estimate if you fire quick after adjustment. Still firing 3 degree spreads but I figure as I get more experience with the US TDC I will be able to trim torpedo usage.

I do believe that the TDC has some bugs though. Target transition seems time consuming on a similar if not exact 2nd target. It seems to me that you must re-enter all data points or the torp goes in the wrong direction. RADAR should also be able to provide semi-accurate ranges as well as SONAR. I am very aware of the time between bearings check for speed but it does not seem to work right in my install.

Convoys seem to run 9 or 11 kts mostly ;)

Is anyone getting a lock up when clicking the Stadimeter? I have had a few. I always have to save before doing that :down:

I AM VERY HAPPY WITH THE SIM! When did Silent Hunter I come out? I have been waiting that long.

[pccitgo99]

Can anybody shed some light on how they go about manually plotting the attack in SH4. Using the sub school torpedo lesson I have tried to estimate the target speed using the Nav Map tools and the stop watch but am not sure how the map is updated. Just using what I can see I start a plot using the zoomed in Nav Map ( because I dont see any plotting tools in the Attack Map Screen) and start the watch after marking a cross on the target amidships. I wait two mins and then repeat. Using the ruler I get a measurement of .4nm. This equates to a speed of 12knots. To be realistic I would need to be on the Attack Scope rather than looking at the chart at two mins to update the plot but I am not sure if SH4 does this. If so when? Anytime I make a range,speed or AOB entry? Or does it just do it anyway? An earlier post here actually had the times against the marks but I guess they were added to the picture afterwards.

Cheers

PC

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, they almost got it. Almost. They made one small mistake which however has a big negative effect on the usefullness of the position keeper.

Take a look at the lower dial of the position keeper. You will notice it displays and updates the GYRO ANGLES (just like the green line on the attack map) but instead it should be the TARGET BEARING.

Heartc is on the money. :up:

The position keeper requires fixing.

Easy to see - go to the Torpedo training mission with the cruiser.

If you switch to easy settings you can instantly work out the cruiser is at AOB=80.

AOB will not (should not) vary as the cruiser is on a constant course and so is your sub (North).

But take a look at what the AOB indicator and the position keeper (upper dial) its CHANGING AOB.

It looks like this :

Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 320 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 40 Degrees.
Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 330 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 50 Degrees.
Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 340 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 60 Degrees.
Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 350 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 70 Degrees.
Relative Bearing to Cruiser: 360 Degrees. Indicated AOB = 80 Degrees.


The AOB should not be changing - Someone wired the position keeper back to front.:yep:

I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly here. I set up the PK. I watch the PK and if the AOB starts to increase or decrease, I find speed of the target I dialed in is either too slow or too fast depending on how the AOB changes. Once the position of the target as shown on the PK is not changing relative to what I see on the scope means to me that I have the targets speed darn close to the true speed. At that point I take distance readings to get the distance to target as true as possible. Once within 1500 feet, one quick look and if all looks to be as it shows on the PK. I send the torps. I do use slow setting on the torps, always have. We have found the fast setting on torps is not accurate at all. This is a bug as I understand it.

[Bahger]

Guys, I apologise for not adding to the debate but I have a related question: I'm only interested in manual targeting. Hi-fidelity systems simulation is the main reason I go for these uncompromising combat sims. Frankly, I'm not yet good enough to have mastered manual targeting in SHIV and if the TDC is borked as described here, I know I'm just going to get frustrated and fed up with my lack of success. I'm simply not experienced enough to be able to acknowledge the bug and understand it fully enough to be able to work around it sucessfully.

So my question is, based on your superior knowledge of how this series of sims is supported, would you exect these TDK issues to be addressed in a patch, and if so, approximately how soon? I think I might leave SHIV for the moment and revisit it eagerly when such a patch appears. I'd just like to know the probabability of an imminent appearance as I am fully prepared to love this thing.

[Gino]

To add my 5 cents...

Here is a part of the original TDC Technical Manual (1MB). It may explain some things...

http://rapidshare.com/files/23253298/Theory_section.pdf.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/23253298/Theory_section.pdf.html)

Also, on our website www.usscod.org (http://www.usscod.org) you can find the schematic of the TDC.

Also have a look at this one. It is a document (2MB) on which I'm working. It explains a bit about the real life Torpedo Fire Control.
As you can read there are still some open issues, some of which will be solved soon.


http://rapidshare.com/files/23255085/Torpedo_Firing_Controls.pdf.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/23255085/Torpedo_Firing_Controls.pdf.html)

Haven't been playing the game that much yet (first had to find a budget for a new video card) but I will follow the forum.

Any questions?

groetjes,

[Onkel Neal]

Right on Neal.

That is exactly how I have been checking my solution. If TDC says a bearing, I rotate the periscope to that bearing and send it up. In most cases I adjust the target speed and consider this a last look before firing. AOB can be an estimate if you fire quick after adjustment. Still firing 3 degree spreads but I figure as I get more experience with the US TDC I will be able to trim torpedo usage.

I do believe that the TDC has some bugs though. Target transition seems time consuming on a similar if not exact 2nd target. It seems to me that you must re-enter all data points or the torp goes in the wrong direction. RADAR should also be able to provide semi-accurate ranges as well as SONAR. I am very aware of the time between bearings check for speed but it does not seem to work right in my install.

Convoys seem to run 9 or 11 kts mostly ;)

Is anyone getting a lock up when clicking the Stadimeter? I have had a few. I always have to save before doing that :down:

I AM VERY HAPPY WITH THE SIM! When did Silent Hunter I come out? I have been waiting that long.

Yes, it has been confirmed the TDC has a bug, they will fix it.

Agreed, the sim has some bugs but overall it rocks. I like it as much as SH3. I am confident the next patch will make us all fly the Romanian flag again. :yep:

[NefariousKoel]

Yes, it has been confirmed the TDC has a bug, they will fix it.

Agreed, the sim has some bugs but overall it rocks. I like it as much as SH3. I am confident the next patch will make us all fly the Romanian flag again. :yep:

Confirmed? Excellent. :rock:

I still can't stop playing even with the TDC bug. :doh:

[AVGWarhawk]

The TDC bug is a pain but I just get in close and duke it out:yep: . With the bug I can still get hits from about 2000 out. Also, there is the fast torpedo bug as well. Apparently it is not fast:nope: I alway use slow anyway so that was not a big factor in making the score.

[Immacolata]

Being a hopeless escapist I "roleplay" the dodgy TDC :) I imagine that this is the hand that the COMSUBPAC (or whatever they call themselves) dealt me. So dodgy tdc I have to compensate with harder solution making.

Neal, have they realized the errors with the speed of the mk14 and mk23 torps? They seem to be running about 10 kts too slow.

[Thaine]

The pictures of Observer, showing the course plotting and calculation on the attack map, make the impression as if you can draw on the attack map.
But you cant, right?
And if i enter a solution into the TDC only one white spot is painted on the attack map by my crew, the calculation from before is erased. So you have actually no refernce to the former calculations and solutions.
I make my calculations on the navigation map, since i didnt find any tool or possibility to draw on the attack map.
Nevertheless i would like very much to do so. Would make things a little bit more comfortable.
I think for manual calculations the attack map is more or less useless.
Is there any way to change that?

[Onkel Neal]

Charos, gmohr, heartc, Killjoy, Lio

Please check your Private Messages, thanks

Neal

[jdski]

May I ask a possibly stupid question I seemed to have overlooked?
How do you send the bearing of your target to the TDC while surfaced? I use the hydophones while submerged to send the bearing to the TDC, but what do I have to send it to the TDC while surfaced? I can see what the bearing is, but I just don't know how to get that figure into the TDC other then using the "send bearing to TDC" from the sonar position when submerged.

[elanaiba]

You send the bearing together with the range, from the periscope/TBT stations

[jdski]

You send the bearing together with the range, from the periscope/TBT stations

Ok, not sure what was going on last night, but I couldn't seem to get my bearing adjusted. THe white marker on the attack map was well behind the target. Speed and range were correct but the bearing was off. THis morning I can't replicate the problem.

[Jungman]

May I ask a possibly stupid question I seemed to have overlooked?
How do you send the bearing of your target to the TDC while surfaced? I use the hydophones while submerged to send the bearing to the TDC, but what do I have to send it to the TDC while surfaced? I can see what the bearing is, but I just don't know how to get that figure into the TDC other then using the "send bearing to TDC" from the sonar position when submerged.

Using manual TDC, In order to get the AOB setting from the dial on the RIGHT side of the screen to update the TDC display PK on the LEFT side of the screen it just klick on the little RED traingle shaped arrow tab along the rim of that AOB dial. THat will get the data over to the PK thingy. You must do this for each Range, AOB, and Speed. Click every time to update PK.

Try the Training mission out several times to get a real feel how it works. (the speed estimate from the chronofunction is being patched, teh range manual input can be frustratin i you did not use the stadimeter to enter if less than 1500 yards, there is a work around to get the data in though..)

[70shelby1943]

The Silent Hunter 4 TDC

i WILL HAVE TO SAY THAT THE SH4 TDC S_ _K:down:

I do like Sh3 TDC and you can Teak :rock: :up:

the Torpedo Dep and Speed and i can Check the Box OFF so i can Load my on Torpedo Tubs What i to Fire off!!

[DE766]

Hello all,

This is my first time posting here, but I've read posts here for years. While I'm sure most of you already know about the site, this may be helpful for those who don't. The Historic Naval Ships Association's website maintains an online collection of manuals from WWII and the 1950s dealing with submarines, destroyers, and other naval subjects. You can find them at http://www.hnsa.org/doc/index.htm

I hope they help!

[supposedtobeworking]

EEEK! Ok so let me get this straight...I should not lock the periscope onto the target, but manually update the PK with range, spd, aob data for every observation? is this correct and will this workaround the freezing dial in the PK? What I am still confused about is whether I should mess with the lock button...when I should lock if I should use it at all...??

[Bahger]

EEEK! Ok so let me get this straight...I should not lock the periscope onto the target, but manually update the PK with range, spd, aob data for every observation? is this correct and will this workaround the freezing dial in the PK? What I am still confused about is whether I should mess with the lock button...when I should lock if I should use it at all...??
Is there even a "lock" button in manual mode? My impression is that the target vessel is never "locked" electronically but that its position relative to ownship is tracked by the PK, which updates according to the data it receives and its extrapolation of relative speed/bearing and range information. That's why the accuracy degrades so fast, because there is no hard "lock". If I'm wrong, I'd love to know. I'm keeping SH4 in my HD pending the next patch. If the TDC/PK is still borked I'm out.

[AVGWarhawk]

EEEK! Ok so let me get this straight...I should not lock the periscope onto the target, but manually update the PK with range, spd, aob data for every observation? is this correct and will this workaround the freezing dial in the PK? What I am still confused about is whether I should mess with the lock button...when I should lock if I should use it at all...?? Is there even a "lock" button in manual mode? My impression is that the target vessel is never "locked" electronically but that its position relative to ownship is tracked by the PK, which updates according to the data it receives and its extrapolation of relative speed/bearing and range information. That's why the accuracy degrades so fast, because there is no hard "lock". If I'm wrong, I'd love to know. I'm keeping SH4 in my HD pending the next patch. If the TDC/PK is still borked I'm out.

In 100% hard mode the TBT/scope will lock. If you can not lock you can not input the ship you see in the manual into the PK. I was getting lock at about 4000 yards out. At that time, I was able to click on the manual and get my vessel checked off. I began using the TDC at that point for solution. Prior to this I spent my time positioning the submarine for the best attack position I could get.

So, there is hard lock but target needs to be around 4000 yards or closer. Also, if the ship is coming from right to left infront of your bow, the PK works very well. If the target is coming from left to right infront of your bow the TDC is not working correctly. This is what I'm experience anyway.

[supposedtobeworking]

EEEK! Ok so let me get this straight...I should not lock the periscope onto the target, but manually update the PK with range, spd, aob data for every observation? is this correct and will this workaround the freezing dial in the PK? What I am still confused about is whether I should mess with the lock button...when I should lock if I should use it at all...?? Is there even a "lock" button in manual mode? My impression is that the target vessel is never "locked" electronically but that its position relative to ownship is tracked by the PK, which updates according to the data it receives and its extrapolation of relative speed/bearing and range information. That's why the accuracy degrades so fast, because there is no hard "lock". If I'm wrong, I'd love to know. I'm keeping SH4 in my HD pending the next patch. If the TDC/PK is still borked I'm out.

In 100% hard mode the TBT/scope will lock. If you can not lock you can not input the ship you see in the manual into the PK. I was getting lock at about 4000 yards out. At that time, I was able to click on the manual and get my vessel checked off. I began using the TDC at that point for solution. Prior to this I spent my time positioning the submarine for the best attack position I could get.

So, there is hard lock but target needs to be around 4000 yards or closer. Also, if the ship is coming from right to left infront of your bow, the PK works very well. If the target is coming from left to right infront of your bow the TDC is not working correctly. This is what I'm experience anyway.


OK! So to summarize: is it correct to say that manual TDC is working and can be used to reliably plot and obtain firing solutions for targets passing from starboard to port, but one should not bother manual plotting on targets passing from port to starboard?

Also--About the lock feature-if I understand correctly, the lock periscope to target function is NOT connected to the PK or TDC computer right? So the PK will not be updated when peri is locked on target like in SH3; IOW, the lock peri to target function is only for the practical purpose of taking the range and AOB measurements so you don't have to keep moving the scope manually with the target--am I understanding this properly? From what I understand so far, I think the PK updates itself as soon as you input your first observation data--I am assuming you have to press the little button on it to turn it on....?

Quick question or example---Lets say you find a target and lock the scope on to target. You then input the range, AOB, and Speed into the PK and turn it on. You then unlock the peri from target....Now: will the PK just continue to track the target based on the data inputted while the peri is now unlocked?... Also, If you re-lock the peri onto the target at a later time--is the PK affected or updated at all, or do you then update it maually? I think I'm getting close but this could help with clarification.

I totally understood manual targeting in SH3--I think what is confusing me in SH4 and others is exactly how the PK works and it's role in the process. Thanks for any help.

[jdski]

...Quick question or example---Lets say you find a target and lock the scope on to target. You then input the range, AOB, and Speed into the PK and turn it on. You then unlock the peri from target....Now: will the PK just continue to track the target based on the data inputted while the peri is now unlocked?...

Sort of. It doesn't actually track the target. But if your settings were correct, it will stay with the target.

...Also, If you re-lock the peri onto the target at a later time--is the PK affected or updated at all, or do you then update it maually?

Unlocking the periscope and locking it again doesn't update the bearing, but turning the PK off and on will update the bearing if your periscope is locked on it.

Bearing can also be input with sonar, either asking for it from the AI which can be very inaccurate, or listening yourself and sending it with the 3d switch. Doing it yourself, you can move the bearing around depending where your hydrophone is pointed.

[kakemann]

I look forward to the TDC fix in the upcoming patch!

[Powerthighs]

is it correct to say that manual TDC is working and can be used to reliably plot and obtain firing solutions for targets passing from starboard to port, but one should not bother manual plotting on targets passing from port to starboard?
No, actually. You can use the manual TDC to fire on on all targets and it will work. The only issue is that the PK won't always accurately display to you what it thinks the current Relative Bearing to the target is. That info can help you make more efficient observations and verify your solution, but it doesn't affect the accuracy of the firing solution sent to the torpedo.

the lock periscope to target function is NOT connected to the PK or TDC computer right?
Yes. The lock function only keeps the periscope centered on a given target. Information only gets sent to the PK (and therefore the actual firing solution is only updated) when you press one of the red "send" buttons.

[NefariousKoel]

Yes. The lock function only keeps the periscope centered on a given target. Information only gets sent to the PK (and therefore the actual firing solution is only updated) when you press one of the red "send" buttons.

Most notably, the current bearing is only input when you use the Range/Stadimeter "Send" button.

[SKurj]

I can never get the damn range... 90% of the time using the stadimeter I come up short. I tried the jap dimension fix and with or without makes no difference I cannot get the range properly. Could there be an issue with Widescreen monitors at hi-res (1680x1050) and the stadimeter?

[supposedtobeworking]

is it correct to say that manual TDC is working and can be used to reliably plot and obtain firing solutions for targets passing from starboard to port, but one should not bother manual plotting on targets passing from port to starboard?
No, actually. You can use the manual TDC to fire on on all targets and it will work. The only issue is that the PK won't always accurately display to you what it thinks the current Relative Bearing to the target is. That info can help you make more efficient observations and verify your solution, but it doesn't affect the accuracy of the firing solution sent to the torpedo.

the lock periscope to target function is NOT connected to the PK or TDC computer right?
Yes. The lock function only keeps the periscope centered on a given target. Information only gets sent to the PK (and therefore the actual firing solution is only updated) when you press one of the red "send" buttons.

Ok I think I'm getting it now--let me make sure: The bug in the PK only affects the readout of the relative bearing of the target. But, is that to say that the PK knows the "correct" bearing internally though it does not display it? It seems that if the bearing is displayed wrong on the dial then the torp will go to that incorrectly displayed bearing--but you seem to be saying not to worry about it--am I close?

So I input the data into the PK and let it do it's thing--the bug comes into play when I want to validate my solution by checking the bearing on the indicator--but as long as I enter what I think are the correct values of spd rnge and aob the torp will steer true and hit the target--right?

One last question which may eliminate some remaining confusion--when do you turn on and/or off the PK? Right after you input the data from your first observation? Would you ever want to turn it off after your initial plot or just leave it on and update with more plot data as you go?

[Powerthighs]

Ok I think I'm getting it now--let me make sure: The bug in the PK only affects the readout of the relative bearing of the target. But, is that to say that the PK knows the "correct" bearing internally though it does not display it? It seems that if the bearing is displayed wrong on the dial then the torp will go to that incorrectly displayed bearing--but you seem to be saying not to worry about it--am I close?

So I input the data into the PK and let it do it's thing--the bug comes into play when I want to validate my solution by checking the bearing on the indicator--but as long as I enter what I think are the correct values of spd rnge and aob the torp will steer true and hit the target--right?

Yes, all correct. Even though bearing to target may not display correctly, the PK uses the correct value internally. It's purely a display issue.

One last question which may eliminate some remaining confusion--when do you turn on and/or off the PK? Right after you input the data from your first observation? Would you ever want to turn it off after your initial plot or just leave it on and update with more plot data as you go?

I usually turn it on before the first observation and leave it on. I don't know of any reason not to do that. It will update its data with new observations whenever you take them.

[supposedtobeworking]

Thanks powerthigh...that leaves me wondering,..why have an on and off switch for the PK at all...?

[rknhorse]

You do have a bearing readout, just as in the war versions of the TDC.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5688/tdcstuffam2.jpg

I think there's a bug, though, and the position keeper will not update the bearing once you use the periscope lock feature. Try to just attack ships without the lock, and see if it works correctly.



aye! Just needs a bit of Ole Relative Bearing Grease!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/rknhorse/sub/Grease_Gun.jpg
:ahoy:

[fullmetaledges]

Thanks powerthigh...that leaves me wondering,..why have an on and off switch for the PK at all...?
turn it off and on when changing targets

[supposedtobeworking]

Got it-- so the PK resets when you turn it off and back on to clear the data for a new target--I think I'm good to go--here's hoping for a complete and effective patch 1.2--thanks all for the help.

[Torpex752]

Maybe I am asking for too much, but I would like 3 things added. One; a mark bearing button, so regardless of the accuracy of my solution (usually +/- 2-3 degrees) I can input "final bearings and shoot!"
two; I would like a Torpedo Gyro angle indicator, so i can soot when based off of target inputs I can shoot with zero gyro angles. Three: The dials to be a tad bit clearer and slightly larger so i can see the degrees down to 1-2 degrees, not guess +/-5!

Frank
:cool:

[fullmetaledges]

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5688/tdcstuffam2.jpg

the "arm" on the botton dial is the gyro angle

[Torpex752]

That explains why I thought my calculations were off..hmmmm why didnt they just copy SH1's TDC???

Frank

[heartc]

the "arm" on the botton dial is the gyro angle
Yep. And the inner ring on the lower dial is meant to indicate to COMPUTED relative target bearing on its 12 oc position in real time, so that you can check the solution for accuracy if this bearing matches the sighted relative target bearing you can see from your scope, or if it outruns / lags behind it. Unfortunately, as of know this dial is bugged and will only work (move) for starboard side targets or something, otherwise it will always center on a bearing of 0°. But this has already been reported.

Also: Even when this dial is fixed, it would still be cool to have a numerical (as in "312") target bearing readout, like in SHI, because to find out solution errors you need a pretty accurate and readable readout, which the inner ring is not. Remember, that dial was lot bigger iRL. For long range shots, even slight bearing errors will lead to missing the ship, and the less accurate the readout, the longer you will have to track the target to note a difference.

[NefariousKoel]

I can never get the damn range... 90% of the time using the stadimeter I come up short. I tried the jap dimension fix and with or without makes no difference I cannot get the range properly. Could there be an issue with Widescreen monitors at hi-res (1680x1050) and the stadimeter?

I have the exact same issue at 1280x1024 res. Perhaps the 3d stretch is the problem.
I've been bringing the Stadimeter ghost image down further to compensate.

[Lio]

Im not sure if its actualy a bug or not. But how accruate was stadimeters back in 1940's. I dont think you should expect pin point accuracy. Getting the range 90% right seems ok for most of my own shots. But i also fire in spreads.

[heartc]

Im not sure if its actualy a bug or not. But how accruate was stadimeters back in 1940's. I dont think you should expect pin point accuracy. Getting the range 90% right seems ok for most of my own shots. But i also fire in spreads.

When accuracy is 90%, that is damn well more than good enough indeed. Range is the most unimportant of all measurements for fire solutions, the gyro angles stay pretty much the same. I do not even ID the target ship but just take stadimeter readings just like that. I dunno what standard masthead height (why you ID ships in the first place) is entered in the stadimeter, but it seems to work everytime.

Range might be interesting when you are submerged and want to know exactly when the previously tracked target has passed over you by looking at the Position Keeper/TDC, or when you really move your own sub around alot and run circles around the tracked ship or something. Then the data would get FUBAR over time with wrong ranges.

[Partsking]

SH3 player, now playing SH4 after I ransacked my town for it over the weekend. I bought the last one!! It felt good. :D

Anyway, quick question. In SH3 I was able to see my projected torpedo path in the TDC map and was able to refine that shot by the dials on that map/screen. I know we don't have that in this game but is the torpedo path still shown, perhaps in the Nav map instead?

Just need to get my bearings straight before entering hostile waters. :D

[Partsking]

Anyone? :(

[elanaiba]

Yes, its shown in the Attack map, and now you can also see the projected image of the target. Much better than SH3.

But you'll probably have a little trouble finding the attack map, which is the second icon from the left in the map tab on the interface.

[Partsking]

Awesome. Thanks for the reply!! :rock: