Tired of the negativity, reality check time

[hmatthias]

As an avid gamer, I often "hit the forums" around the release of a game that I am anticipating. It is always the same story once a game releases. There are a few people complaining about bugs, loudly, while the majority of folks are either working around the bugs and happily enjoying the game. I have the game, just haven't had a chance to play yet, and I am expecting bugs. It sucks, yes, but it is a fact of life. Silent Hunter III had some goofy bugs and other things (I remember hitting a large merchant with one torpedo, and it blowing up and splitting in two. Thought that was a little strange). Unfortunatly in this industry, QA is sometimes neglected, and we end up here. We will get a patch, and probably another patch, and some great modders will crank out some fun mods to fix sounds and such.

For all of you that play GWX in Silent Hunter III, remove the mod and just play Silent Hunter III, even at 1.4b. It is comical how less emersive it is. Remember, this game was generated to make revenue, and appeal to the casual gamer. Mods help it become more realistic and less "cartoon like"

Just my 2 cents

[longdog499]

Well said!!!:yep:

[Onkel Neal]

Well said!

Stick around, we need a cool head like you around to help these ladies get through this trying time in their life. :ping:

[lord bame]

when i buy a new BMW or LCD tv im expecting bugs, engine failure, black screen. It sucks, yes, but it is a fact of life

properly.:hmm:

[DaMaGe007]

Bear in mind the people are discussing thier percieved failings of the game and the negitivity is somthing you apply to thier post. It can seem alot worse than it is.

Yes there are some upset people, but there are also alot of people who's emotions you may be misinterpreting.

Carefull not to paint them all with the same brush.

[FIREWALL]

Valuable 2 cents :up:

[Snakeeyes]

As an avid gamer, I often "hit the forums" around the release of a game that I am anticipating. It is always the same story once a game releases. There are a few people complaining about bugs, loudly, while the majority of folks are either working around the bugs and happily enjoying the game. I have the game, just haven't had a chance to play yet, and I am expecting bugs. It sucks, yes, but it is a fact of life. Silent Hunter III had some goofy bugs and other things (I remember hitting a large merchant with one torpedo, and it blowing up and splitting in two. Thought that was a little strange). Unfortunatly in this industry, QA is sometimes neglected, and we end up here. We will get a patch, and probably another patch, and some great modders will crank out some fun mods to fix sounds and such.

For all of you that play GWX in Silent Hunter III, remove the mod and just play Silent Hunter III, even at 1.4b. It is comical how less emersive it is. Remember, this game was generated to make revenue, and appeal to the casual gamer. Mods help it become more realistic and less "cartoon like"

Just my 2 cents

Amen. I've been putting off GWX until SHIV came out just in case... well... the unthinkable happened (kind of like the USAF being worried about the F117 NOT working as advertised and developing the F-15E as a backup).

I think I'll test out vanilla SHIV in all its buggy glory when it arrives tomorrow and then go nuts with GWX. I know... I know... I SHOULD have tried out GWX when it came out but I wanted to keep it in reserve. Glad I did!

[Spaxspore]

Bear in mind the people are discussing thier percieved failings of the game and the negitivity is somthing you apply to thier post. It can seem alot worse than it is.

Yes there are some upset people, but there are also alot of people who's emotions you may be misinterpreting.

Carefull not to paint them all with the same brush.

2 man issues ive seen and experiance

1.Major Graphic glitchin in crew members

2. Major Sound Issues

Other then that i love it

[SteamWake]

Good post but......

Unfortunatly this "attitude" is nothing new.

I have seen it at the release of virtually every new title including SH3. The forums for the game "Oblivion" were a rioutus affair with at least a dozen locks a day. It took them nearly 6 months to calm down.

For some reason or another some people get some sort of gratification out of being negative and attempting to raise a few hackles. In some ways its a reflection on current culture as a whole. It is after all the "me" generation.

I think with all things considered the general community here at SubSim are a much more level headed group.

My advice when reading any thread is to consider the source.

[hmatthias]

Well, the "quality" attitude is changing a bit in business enterprise software, so we can only hope it carries over into gaming software. Unfortunatly, the Silent Hunter series really has no direct competition, so that makes it hard for a company to get motivated to do extensive testing. Testing = time that the game is not on the shelves, being bought...

[malkuth74]

:gulp:

I agree. But be ready to be called a Fanboy. :rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

The point is other games and not just the SH series have had issues and need patches. Modders corrected and created things. I have no worries here at all. Not after what I have seen the modders do in SH3. These guys absolutely rock:rock::rock: and I believe these guys will make this game rock just as hard if not harder than SH3. Once they dig into books and films that overwhelming desire to correct the game and make it as real as it gets....these guys got it.:yep: I'm grabbing my copy tomorrow and sailing the Pacific. After that, I head to the mod forum and see what the fellas have brewing:up:

[Shipwreck]

:up: rgr that bro, just like SHIII first came out. A lot of of cry babys.

SW

[Sgian Dubh]

Well said!

Stick around, we need a cool head like you around to help these ladies get through this trying time in their life. :ping:


:rotfl:

I'll just put some water on to boil for ya, Onkal Neal! :D

[malkuth74]

Hi I don't have the game yet. But it sucks so I'm not buying it. :damn:

JK. :rotfl: :doh: :huh: :oops:

I bet you mods, that are use to release weeks, have gotten use to it by now. But I don't rember SHIII being this Slammed before it even came out. Hats off to Mods for having to deal with it. Gives me a Headach just looking at it. :|\\

[Immacolata]

Have anyone ever sat down for a moment and really thought about the kind of game that SH4 is?

Its living in the twilight zone of game and simulation. It is immensely complex, and immensely complex software will have glitches and compromises. There is a reason that the japanese game companies stay away from these things :)

If we want super-complex games, we better expect to be disappointed. Investing so many feelings in software, its quite silly but one can't help it.

Now, after having gotten my emo rage out of the system, I think Ill take off that woman's frock again and go out tomorrow and see if I can locate a copy of SH IV.

[malkuth74]

Have anyone ever sat down for a moment and really thought about the kind of game that SH4 is?

Its living in the twilight zone of game and simulation. It is immensely complex, and immensely complex software will have glitches and compromises. There is a reason that the japanese game companies stay away from these things :)

If we want super-complex games, we better expect to be disappointed. Investing so many feelings in software, its quite silly but one can't help it.

Now, after having gotten my emo rage out of the system, I think Ill take off that woman's frock again and go out tomorrow and see if I can locate a copy of SH IV.

Well, well, well they got Pong right. What say you about that? I didn't see any pong patches. :dead:

[Ducimus]

Theres this little phenomena that often occurs in a community before game is released that i like to call the "Next Gaming Messiah" syndrome. Great expectations that no title can meet. WHEN the game doesn't live up to these expectations, people are crushed. Then they get angry, as if slighted on a personal level, and then vent it on a forum.

Then what can occur is umm what i beleive is best reffered to as a "pack mentatliy" or "mob behvior". As the old saying goes, Misery loves company.


In my opinion, having been gaming on PC's for more years then i can recollect, ive learned there exists a simple fact people have a hard time to accept. New games have broken features. New game means, buy it in a couple months. Sad but true. Anyone whos been gaming for any length of time should know this.

Personnaly, i never preorder, and i rarely buy a game fresh on the shelves, because i know theres going to be stuff broken, and id rather wait for the patch, or wait until the price drops. Now, this is my normal behavior, SH4 i preodred, and i did so knowing full well what id' have to put up with, but i preordered it anyway. Hence i have absolutly no excuse whatsoever to bitch, whine, moan or complain because i knew better, and id hold the same standard to anyone whos been gaming for any length of time. To me, this is a reality, and people need to get a grip.

[malkuth74]

Theres this little phenomena that often occurs in a community before game is released that i like to call the "Next Gaming Messiah" syndrome. Great expectations that no title can meet. WHEN the game doesn't live up to these expectations, people are crushed. Then they get angry, as if slighted on a personal level, and then vent it on a forum.

Then what can occur is umm what i beleive is best reffered to as a "pack mentatliy" or "mob behvior". As the old saying goes, Misery loves company.


In my opinion, having been gaming on PC's for more years then i can recollect, ive learned there exists a simple fact people have a hard time to accept. New games have broken features. New game means, buy it in a couple months. Sad but true. Anyone whos been gaming for any length of time should know this.

Personnaly, i never preorder, and i rarely buy a game fresh on the shelves, because i know theres going to be stuff broken, and id rather wait for the patch, or wait until the price drops. Now, this is my normal behavior, SH4 i preodred, and i did so knowing full well what id' have to put up with, but i preordered it anyway. Hence i have absolutly no excuse whatsoever to bitch, whine, moan or complain because i knew better, and id hold the same standard to anyone whos been gaming for any length of time. To me, this is a reality, and people need to get a grip.

I kinda wanna cut and paste and save this for use at another release date down the road.

I can say that it does seem to get worse after the years go on. It must be the complainers pro creating and messing up the gene pool. :rotfl:

I rember years ago when Master Of Orion 2 was released. I was on a Board like this that the owner of the board was given the game early. Every day we had our noses glued to the screen cause he was giving a play by play. Not one complaint on that board... Of course Master Of Orion 2 was a great game. (don't ge me going of MOO 3 though)

[John Channing]

One of the advantages of being "older" is that I was raised to have an imagination. It really helps in these trying times.

Like for instance...

Whenever a new Submarine was built, before the navy took possession, the plankowner crew would have it out for several weeks of sea trials. During this time countless flaws, mistakes and problems were discovered and fixed.

Sometimes the Sonar didn't work properly.

Sometimes the Radar didn't work properly.

Sometimes torpedos didn't work properly

Sometimes thing were just broken. (anyone see where I am going here?)

So back to the yard with a list of what needed to be fixed the Captain and Crew went and, most of the time, they got most of them fixed. But dollars to donuts there has never been a Submarine that was 100% perfect when it sailed into harms way.

So for every little problem I will find I just tell myself "Back to the yard with my list" and my fervent hope that the yard will be able to fix it. But if not, I know I have a good enough crew that we can overcome any faults or problems so we can take the fight to the enemy.

But I guess you have to be older to get your mind working that way.

JCC

Still patiently waiting for the news that it has landed locally.

[AVGWarhawk]

One of the advantages of being "older" is that I was raised to have an imagination. It really helps in these trying times.

Like for instance...

Whenever a new Submarine was built, before the navy took possession, the plankowner crew would have it out for several weeks of sea trials. During this time countless flaws, mistakes and problems were discovered and fixed.

Sometimes the Sonar didn't work properly.

Sometimes the Radar didn't work properly.

Sometimes torpedos didn't work properly

Sometimes thing were just broken. (anyone see where I am going here?)

So back to the yard with a list of what needed to be fixed the Captain and Crew went and, most of the time, they got most of them fixed. But dollars to donuts there has never been a Submarine that was 100% perfect when it sailed into harms way.

So for every little problem I will find I just tell myself "Back to the yard with my list" and my fervent hope that the yard will be able to fix it. But if not, I know I have a good enough crew that we can overcome any faults or problems so we can take the fight to the enemy.

But I guess you have to be older to get your mind working that way.

JCC

Still patiently waiting for the news that it has landed locally.


Yep! Call it a shakedown. Just like the real deal:yep:

[AJ!]

Well said!

Stick around, we need a cool head like you around to help these ladies get through this trying time in their life. :ping:

Yeah but ya gota understand where we ladies coming from here..... So there i was in my geto sub, happy as larry pressing all the buttons at once when all of a sudden it starts to sink :o

What was worse is the game didnt seem to recognize that my boat had sunk and continued to play... it was almost like the boat was ment to sink... like some sort of man made submersible contraption :doh: Now if thats not a glitch i dont know what is ;)

[DaMaGe007]

Personaly I think this thread is in poor taste and is begging for a Complainer vs fanboy flamewar, luckily they arent biting.

Your not seeing the complainers attacking the people who are enjoying the game, why should the people enjoying the game be attacking the complainers.

Try to understand thier perspective, they have expencive rigs and large monitors and they want a sub sim that supports thier expencive rigs and they have been misled leading up to the release (amoung the other things). They have diferent expectations and standards than you. There are some that are taking it a bit to extremes, but so is this thread in the other direction.

By all means start threads about the positive aspects of the game and provide some ballance to the forum. but a thread attacking them for thier expectations and judgements is a bit unfair. You are judging thier emotional state from a few posts on a forum.

[CCIP]

I've already decided - come weekend, I'll write my own review of SHIV :p

From a day's (and night's) experience - the game deserves a few kicks for glaring ommissions and glitches, but overall... I'm very happy with it already :)

[Barkhorn1x]

I for one will:

a. Still buy SHIV - it is on pre-order after all. :yep:

b. Refrain from bashing - until I receive it and play for a week or so - then I will bash constructivly. ;)

We're all in this together!

[AVGWarhawk]

I for one will:

a. Still buy SHIV - it is on pre-order after all. :yep:

b. Refrain from bashing - until I receive it and play for a week or so - then I will bash constructivly. ;)

We're all in this together!

I'm with you on that. I have already got my game set aside at EB Games. Grab it on Wednesday if she comes in.:up: You know, I already suspected some bugs and glitchs so I'm not let down at all on that aspect.:smug:

[CCIP]

Also, to be realistic about SHIV's value... so far from my short but highly-inquisitive experience.

The game would deserve 10/10 for the base - it's got all the components of a great subsim and is a joy to play.

I'd give it another +2 for going above and beyond in far improved campaign presentation and a fantastic TDC.

Then I'd give -1 each for (i) hardware graphics and sound problems, (ii) bugs, (iii) unfinished features and (iv) stupid oversights (like meters instead of feet).

So that leaves us with 10+2-4 = 8/10

I have faith that as with SHIII, patches and mods will eventually gain back those two points and make it a 5-star game!

Also, though on some points a bit more glitchy, the out-of-the-box game is much better than SHIII was on release. The bugs sometimes rear their head, crashes occasionally happen, functions will occasionally fail - not too often, but at points the game needs patience. But if you're willing to put up with these issues, the game will reward.

If you're impatient, dock off one point.
If you're particular about resolutions and Anti-Aliasing - dock off another point.
There you get 6/10 and then maybe it's not so pretty - but I'm telling you, if you're not patient, this game probably wouldn't be worth your attention anyway; and if you're patient, you'll be willing to work with the AA problem as well.

[ACSoft]

Never forget that in this consumer world, all is ruled by the market laws and like in democracy, the ultime power belong to you, the customer.

Somebody already said that nobody of us would accept to buy a car and have to wait 6 months or more, until to be able to use it, as it was expected from the publicity. A car factory who would act this way, would disappear very soon. Why it is not the case with the PC game industry ? I set the question.

The same PC games companies, when they develop a console game, cannot act this way, because there is actually no possibility to update the game. So they must do something which is reliable and fully finished. This prove they can do it if they will or have to !!!

To my view, to publish unfinished buggy games is not admissible and therefore, I am always sad to see, on forums like this, when unhappy customers express their anger, that often, the community start to fire them. For me, negative expression, as long as it is written without injurious words is totally legitime, even if it may be not pleasant to read for some of you. It deserve the thruth, because, when a newcomer will read the forum, it will get a picture which really reflect the average feeling of the game users.

OK, we are in a free world and nobody need to think like me. Peoples can found normal that a game they buy are just unfinished and buggy. Then, can found normal then, to not really play with the game, but to have paid for being a free beta tester. Then, when the last official patch is finally issued, they will still wait until a freeware Mods like GWX come out and, at last, start to just play and enjoy the game. Most probably in a time the game start to be obsolete !!! In a time they are already waiting anxiously for the next version.

Personnaly, I would prefer that the magic AND UNIQUE time of discovering a new game, would be directly with a very achieved and solid product, who would need a patch only in rare occasions, maybe just to solve a very specific unexpected technical problem, some unfortunate customers have reveiled. For me, a company who publish a game which they perfectly know is unachieved and buggy is cynical and do not respect you. You are just considered good to be "sheared like sheeps".

If you have to wait more to get the game, for me, no problem, I would prefer to wait and have the joy of the discovery, not killed by numerous flaws & bugs. I would be even be ready to pay such a game a bit more higher price.

So, please, do not dissuade peoples who just express their personnal feeling about the game, even if it is negative or even if they fire the publisher. And understand me well, I say the publisher NOT the dev team !

Sorry, Neal, but criticals cannot all the time be constructive. As long as their are not insults and written without injurious words, you should admit them. I find also sad that you open a thread "Bugs report for SH4", even before the game is out !!! For me, this is the greatest victory for those cynical publishers, because it mean now, it is normal that a PC game come on the market unfinished and buggy.

Remember, the final power belong TO YOU the customer. Only YOU can make this change. Think about the joy it would be to play FOR THE FIRST TIME with a game like SH3+GWX.

Oh, one last question. Do you find normal that the publisher get all your money and the Mods developers nothing ? Isn't that an up side down world ?

Regards,

ACS

[DragonRR1]

Also, to be realistic about SHIV's value... so far from my short but highly-inquisitive experience.

The game would deserve 10/10 for the base - it's got all the components of a great subsim and is a joy to play.

I'd give it another +2 for going above and beyond in far improved campaign presentation and a fantastic TDC.

Then I'd give -1 each for (i) hardware graphics and sound problems, (ii) bugs, (iii) unfinished features and (iv) stupid oversights (like meters instead of feet).

So that leaves us with 10+2-4 = 8/10

I have faith that as with SHIII, patches and mods will eventually gain back those two points and make it a 5-star game!

Also, though on some points a bit more glitchy, the out-of-the-box game is much better than SHIII was on release. The bugs sometimes rear their head, crashes occasionally happen, functions will occasionally fail - not too often, but at points the game needs patience. But if you're willing to put up with these issues, the game will reward.

If you're impatient, dock off one point.
If you're particular about resolutions and Anti-Aliasing - dock off another point.
There you get 6/10 and then maybe it's not so pretty - but I'm telling you, if you're not patient, this game probably wouldn't be worth your attention anyway; and if you're patient, you'll be willing to work with the AA problem as well.
I really would like to agree with everything you said. I can get quite close :)

I currently do not wish to return my copy, nor have I cancelled the deluxe one I ordered direct from UBI.

The but:

BUT! No game should be knowingly released with any major bugs or show stoppers.

With the odd, rare, exception, console games even highly complex ones do not have major bugs on release.

The publishers, not just UBI, seem to be of the opinion that PC gamers just don't mind getting major out of box bugs. This is just not true.

The one excuse I accept is that there are many PC configs and it is forgivable when, for example, a game crashes or has an issue on mine or someone elses PC providing the majority do not have the issue.

SH4:

Well the resolution bug is a show stopper for me personally and I don't personally think it isn't a "known" issue. I sincerely hope they will correct it but am concerned that they *might* not... should they decide it is a *feature*

The sinking to the bottom issue is not quite a major bug but how they didn't spot it .. well it defies my comprehension anyway. The same is true of most of the other issues people have discovered. These issues require so little QA testing that I'm sure most people think that the release was forced out by the publishers; this imho is what angers many people.

Personally I'm just frustrated that I am now waiting, yet again, for a patch. In this particular case I got the game before the official release date so I really shouldn't complain a great deal. They might release a patch at the end of this week..

[codmander]

yea but at least we had a radio room and could give someone orders 10$ is all I'm gonna shell out for sh4

[CCIP]

Well, I agree that the dreaded "accellerated development schedule" reared its ugly head here. But let's not be too negative about it.

Again, I stress - while there are people who will be too frustrated and dissatisfied with the game to have to wait. And there are many - I dare say most - who should be able to carry on with it no problem.

As for me, despite having a very meagre system, I just sunk 15 hours on this game and I'm NOT sorry. The next few weeks are going to be pretty ugly - I'm going to have to juggle a serious work overload with constant SHIV craving :p

[Mush Martin]

Mods help it become more realistic and less "cartoon like"


:oops:

(inside joke)

MM

[nhall70]

I agree that a sanity check is in order.

I actually have a very high tolerance for bugs and such, I'm patient, and I believe in being polite and respectful in the way that you get your point across. In other words, I'm an adult.

I expect certain problems on release day. But some of the problems being reported for SH4 are quite possibly "by design" and not "bugs" at all. This implies that they may very well never be fixed.

Since SH4 was my highest anticipation for 2007...these last two days have left me more dissapointed than I can remember being in a long time. Still, it is just a game and life goes on for crying out loud.

Now I need something to fill the void! Any recommendations anyone?

[CCIP]

Gah, why must everyone again be so negative, even in this thread?

I sometimes even wonder if we all just got the same game. I guess it's the old "glass half empty/glass half full" issue. :shifty:

[Ducimus]

Somebody already said that nobody of us would accept to buy a car and have to wait 6 months or more, until to be able to use it,.. blah .... blah..

The same PC games companies,

This argument is old, VERY old, and i knew somebody would bring it up. PC games are NOT car's. Car industries creation of auto's is standardized of an assembely line, PC game are not, and probably cannot ever be. To understand why you have to look at how they're created.

Creating a PC game is NOT like whipping out a SDI app out of visual studio wizard. There is no standardized buiding blocks (such as MFC) to work with. Any reusable code is proprietary, and was invented from scractch. In short, creating a PC game delves more into the realm of the artistic due to the ground up creativty involved. On top of that, your desigiing something to run on umpteen thousand different combinations of computers.

[THE_MASK]

I will wait until all the patches are applied and then make a judgement .

[geetrue]

One of the advantages of being "older" is that I was raised to have an imagination. It really helps in these trying times.

Like for instance...

Whenever a new Submarine was built, before the navy took possession, the plankowner crew would have it out for several weeks of sea trials. During this time countless flaws, mistakes and problems were discovered and fixed.


Which reminds me of a sea story John :p

It was late 1967 and the USS Ethan Allen SSBN 608 was just coming out of overhaul in the Newport News shipyard. I was sonarman 3rd class in those days and this was my first nuc boat.

We took her out for a few sea trials and did our training drills, but we would come back in everyday to fix something. One day we were out on shake down and the CO said, "Lets test dropping the anchor" which was a real custom beauty that fit flush with the bottom of the hull and lots and lots of big thick anchor chain.

We surfaced and manned the manuvering watch and the CO said, "Let her go" ...

The COB turns the big custom wrench in the socket and the anchor takes off for the bottom of the ocean (perhaps 1,600') straight down. :o

That's where the anchor still rest today, because she kept on going with all of the anchor chain and everything ... :yep:

You see someone in the shipyard just loaded it into the boat and forgot to link the end of the chain to anything that could stop it. :rotfl:

Took us two more weeks and they said it was worth $25,000 in 1960's dollars. You can imagine what it worth with today's inflation.

This sub sim's problems are nothing compared to the real thing.

[Captain_Jack]

One of the advantages of being "older" is that I was raised to have an imagination. It really helps in these trying times.

Like for instance...

Whenever a new Submarine was built, before the navy took possession, the plankowner crew would have it out for several weeks of sea trials. During this time countless flaws, mistakes and problems were discovered and fixed.

Sometimes the Sonar didn't work properly.

Sometimes the Radar didn't work properly.

Sometimes torpedos didn't work properly

Sometimes thing were just broken. (anyone see where I am going here?)

So back to the yard with a list of what needed to be fixed the Captain and Crew went and, most of the time, they got most of them fixed. But dollars to donuts there has never been a Submarine that was 100% perfect when it sailed into harms way.

So for every little problem I will find I just tell myself "Back to the yard with my list" and my fervent hope that the yard will be able to fix it. But if not, I know I have a good enough crew that we can overcome any faults or problems so we can take the fight to the enemy.

But I guess you have to be older to get your mind working that way.

JCC

Still patiently waiting for the news that it has landed locally.


Well stated! I love the analogy! SHIV "Shakedown" Period...So having it released with a few bugs is actually quite realistic!! :up:

[stabiz]

You have got to be kidding me.

[Sailor Steve]

No, it should be perfect right out of the box. If one thing is not perfect, then it's crap, and we should not only get our money back but should be reimbursed for our emotional distress.:dead:

[ACSoft]

This argument is old, VERY old, and i knew somebody would bring it up. PC games are NOT car's. Car industries creation of auto's is standardized of an assembely line, PC game are not, and probably cannot ever be. To understand why you have to look at how they're created.

Yes, argument is very old, unfortunatly. Because those who could make this to change, do not act.

Even being a programmer myself, I don't care about to look a how they're created. If they can do it for console games, they can do it for PC games. Period.

Now, if you belong to the category who accept this situation, it is your right, like it is mine to not join you in this.

Today software is everywhere. Not only in PC game. You have software in almost all consumer electronics (TV set, DVD recorder, etc...), in your wash machine, in your car, etc... Fortunately, they are not all like SH3 first version.

ACS

[CCIP]

Today software is everywhere. Not only in PC game. You have software in almost all consumer electronics (TV set, DVD recorder, etc...), in your wash machine, in your car, etc... Fortunately, they are not all like SH3 first version.



I beg to differ - when's the last time we've seen a sub sim on a dishwasher - or even a console?

The decline of simulation games has been largely due to the overwhelming complexity of the software vs. the relatively niche market. It's not right to compare Silent Hunter IV to other games, because other games don't do their thing at nearly the same complexity as SHIV. I'd love to be proven wrong, but my impression is that console games, especially those of a more arcade orientation, are both mechanically-simpler and better-financed by their mass-market appeal that SHIV can really only dream of.

Further, it's worth pointing out that SHIV does things that no other subsim does. Only modded SH3 slightly deflates that argument - but it's not a commercial development. Feature for feature, SHIV has more than any other offering you can compare it to. Consoles or washing machines don't count!

[heartc]

The problem always resides in the over-hype of upcoming games. The bigger the pre-release hype is, the bigger the disappointment will be for some people and the more complaints you will read in forums. This has increased over the years since the dev times for games also tend to be bigger than back in the old times, and word about the upcoming game gets around earlier and faster, which results in longer waiting times where the hype has time to build up into unseen heights and sometimes you wonder - in SH's case - if people are aware this is still software or if they expect an actual WWII sub delivered in front of their yard.
Add to that that we have some folks here who I think are not interested in the presented scenario at all (American subs in the Pacific) and are only buying the game expecting a plethory of technical improvements beyond reason and can hardly wait for mods to transform it back into yet another Hitler-steel-tube sim, either because it is "more cool" to play for Darth Vader or because they generally would like to pretend rewriting history. I'm not surprised at their disappointement.

I myself am happy that after ELEVEN years we are finally back in the beautifull Pacific, being able to sail in S-Classes, GATOs, etc. The game has bugs? Yeah, that's bad, but tell me something new.
I'm actually one of those who tends to get nostalgic with older games, complaining about today's industry, but with the SH series this is not valid since at least SHIII. In my opinion the dev team achieved putting immersion and atmosphere back into simulations, and it seems SHIV is even better in that respect. And had people been able to actually LISTEN to sonar contacts, have actual waves, weather, physics model, manual targetting as standard, no god's eye maps etc. etc. in 1994/1996, they would have said it's the shiznits or not believed it. Some people on this board simply come off as spoiled children in my view.

[Ducimus]

There is a MAJOR difference between programming buisness relelated applications, and programming a game. The two are entirely different. Ive delved into programming long enough to realize this. Or in other terms, CIS is not CS.

On a releated note, when you standardize PC games you stifle creativity. An example of this? All you have to do, is look at the EA lineup of products. How many battlefields? How many madden games? I'd go as far to say that people calling for PC games to be like car's are one reason why you see less innovation, and more regurgitation.

[ACSoft]

Today software is everywhere. Not only in PC game. You have software in almost all consumer electronics (TV set, DVD recorder, etc...), in your wash machine, in your car, etc... Fortunately, they are not all like SH3 first version.



I beg to differ - when's the last time we've seen a sub sim on a dishwasher - or even a console?

The decline of simulation games has been largely due to the overwhelming complexity of the software vs. the relatively niche market. It's not right to compare Silent Hunter IV to other games, because other games don't do their thing at nearly the same complexity as SHIV. I'd love to be proven wrong, but my impression is that console games, especially those of a more arcade orientation, are both mechanically-simpler and better-financed by their mass-market appeal that SHIV can really only dream of.

Further, it's worth pointing out that SHIV does things that no other subsim does. Only modded SH3 slightly deflates that argument - but it's not a commercial development. Feature for feature, SHIV has more than any other offering you can compare it to. Consoles or washing machines don't count!

I beg to differ too.

You would be astonished of the complexity of firmware/software you might find, for example, in a modern high end TV set. I am paid to know it.

ACS

[Seeadler]

On a releated note, when you standardize PC games you stifle creativity. An example of this? All you have to do, is look at the EA lineup of products. How many battlefields? How many madden games? I'd go as far to say that people calling for PC games to be like car's are one reason why you see less innovation, and more regurgitation.
Interview with Warren Spector (game designer)

Gamasutra: It seems to me that even the method of storytelling has some areas to advance. Sometimes the stories seem immature, and I'm just speaking for myself, but people need to realize what a good story is and make compelling characters and a great universe so that the story will tell itself.

WS: I think you've hit upon something that has 3 underlying problems, and here again I'm going to alienate just about everybody in the game business. First of all, I think there's a widespread belief that, even as developers and players get older, at its core, our market is young and that our games are made for kids - and that people stop playing as they get older. So even the games that are “mature”, I mean seriously, who in their 20s or 30s give a good gol-darn about being the last space marine on a space station who has to stave off an alien invasion? Who cares? Games are still aimed at kids even though the players may be adults. It’s a problem that comes from many developers who have no experience of life other than “I've played a lot of games, I love games, let me make games.” You end up with games about other games and not about life. So that's a real issue. We'll start telling better stories when people who have interesting things to say start making games.

full interview here:
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070305/sheffield_01.shtml

[John Channing]

One of the advantages of being "older" is that I was raised to have an imagination. It really helps in these trying times.

Like for instance...

Whenever a new Submarine was built, before the navy took possession, the plankowner crew would have it out for several weeks of sea trials. During this time countless flaws, mistakes and problems were discovered and fixed.


Which reminds me of a sea story John :p

It was late 1967 and the USS Ethan Allen SSBN 608 was just coming out of overhaul in the Newport News shipyard. I was sonarman 3rd class in those days and this was my first nuc boat.

We took her out for a few sea trials and did our training drills, but we would come back in everyday to fix something. One day we were out on shake down and the CO said, "Lets test dropping the anchor" which was a real custom beauty that fit flush with the bottom of the hull and lots and lots of big thick anchor chain.

We surfaced and manned the manuvering watch and the CO said, "Let her go" ...

The COB turns the big custom wrench in the socket and the anchor takes off for the bottom of the ocean (perhaps 1,600') straight down. :o

That's where the anchor still rest today, because she kept on going with all of the anchor chain and everything ... :yep:

You see someone in the shipyard just loaded it into the boat and forgot to link the end of the chain to anything that could stop it. :rotfl:

Took us two more weeks and they said it was worth $25,000 in 1960's dollars. You can imagine what it worth with today's inflation.

This sub sim's problems are nothing compared to the real thing.

That actually had me laughing out loud.

I have this visual image of the watchstander, having seen the chain go whipping out of the access port at 90 miles an hour, in a cacaphony of noise, standing there in the now silent forward space and picking up and mike on the 1MC...


"Ummm.... Sir?"

I'm still laughing.

And the way things have been around here today I really needed it. Take a Gold Star out of petty cash for yourself!

JCC

[John Channing]

You have got to be kidding me.

Again... I guess it's an "older" thing.

Perspective.

JCC

[ACSoft]

There is a MAJOR difference between programming buisness relelated applications, and programming a game. The two are entirely different. Ive delved into programming long enough to realize this. Or in other terms, CIS is not CS.

On a releated note, when you standardize PC games you stifle creativity. An example of this? All you have to do, is look at the EA lineup of products. How many battlefields? How many madden games? I'd go as far to say that people calling for PC games to be like car's are one reason why you see less innovation, and more regurgitation.

Sorry, but whatever you do, you can do it well and clean from the start, if you are willing to. This is proved even in the game industry with console games. Now, I agree with you that standardization is dangerous for creativity. But standardization is not a mandatory condition to obtain this result. It also depend of the level of standardization you introduce.

ACS

[AVGWarhawk]

You have got to be kidding me.

Again... I guess it's an "older" thing.

Perspective.

JCC


I think he is quite serious. I know I was when I stated the shakedown deal. Heck all games need a shakedown. Some more than others. Like they say, "It is what it is". Patch I'm sure if forthcoming and I betting on more than one patch.

[fidget]

Ah well, while I'm waiting for my copy to turn up, I suppose I'll just chime in here as well with my incoherent blather...

I'm not really much of a gamer, and on the *very* rare occasions I do buy a game, it's usually a mil-sim like this. My first interest used to be flight sims, but, with the exception of M$, they pretty much disappeared. The last sub-sim I did was Microprose's 'Silent Service' on an Apple II GS (gee, I hope I didn't date myself there). I actually really enjoyed that game, but it was somewhat limited. Nevertheless, it was one of the few mil-sims that was ever made to run on the Apple II GS, so I was kind of stuck with it. But I did enjoy it.

The reason for that introduction is that the current PC game market does seem shrinking in general, and the mil-sim genre seems to have all but disappeared in recent years. So I feel a little like I'm back in the 'Silent Service/Apple II GS' days. I'm going to buy this thing no matter what and will probably find some way to enjoy it.

Having said that, what I'd really like to hear on this forum is *THE TRUTH*, good , bad or indifferent. If this game has problems, I would like to hear about it. If it's the sim-of-the-century, I'd like to hear that as well. Keep in mind that one person's 'minor issue' is another person's 'buzz-killer'. So, I agree that making posts like 'Silent Hunter 4 SUX!' and leaving it at that is worthless and annoying, I do think that detailed problem descriptions and informed debate/discussion this games shortcomings is perfectly valid and useful. If some/many are 'negative', so be it.

My guess is that, unless this sim just completely fails at every level, about 99% of the folks reading this forum right now are going to bite the bullet and buy it. If any of problem descriptions do hurt the developer's/publisher's feelings, I'm sorry, but that happens in any industry, expecially in entertainment industries. A thick skin is required in any artistic pursuit.

[Ducimus]

My final thoughts.

A post in another thread reminded me of the real culprit to alot of "release then patch" angst many may have. The real responsiblity lays with the publisher who sets the deadlines and holds the pursestrings, not the developer.

People are quick to blame the developer, and this is usually where i'll take issue. Some People are quick to say Games should be like car's, and again, this is where ill take issue.

While ill admit my experience in programming isn't vast, i will say that it was enough to know that programming games lays more in the realm of the creative, and artistic- and that, i adamtly do not beleive can, nor should, be standardized.

[AVGWarhawk]

My final thoughts.

A post in another thread reminded me of the real culprit to alot of "release then patch" angst many may have. The real responsiblity lays with the publisher who sets the deadlines and holds the pursestrings, not the developer.

People are quick to blame the developer, and this is usually where i'll take issue. Some People are quick to say Games should be like car's, and again, this is where ill take issue.

While ill admit my experience in programming isn't vast, i will say that it was enough to know that programming games lays more in the realm of the creative, and artistic- and that, i adamtly do not beleive can, nor should, be standardized.


Imagination can never be standardized. I'm at the point that games just need to be patched and I live with it. With that said, I'm not upset over the bugs that have been pointed out so far.

[Shaffer4]

This forum kinda reminds me of Gremlins... all the members are normally cute and cuddly magwai, then all the sudden it was like some one fed them after midnight while in the bathtub and holy ****!!! :rotfl:

[Shaffer4]

Well said!

Stick around, we need a cool head like you around to help these ladies get through this trying time in their life. :ping:

Neal, your my hero... even though your Avatar scares the living daylights out of me.... ( and If you've seen the living daylights, thats pretty scarey!! ) :arrgh!:


NOOOO!!! the dreaded Navy Dude!!!

[Hartmann]

Some negativity could be because some people expect a revolution and not an evolution of shIII.

Also every game is released with bugs, one more than others, i remember sh3 when it was released, spray bow bug, crew in the bridge underwater, empty ports,campaign factors, etc. now shIII is in the evolution climax

i only worried about sh4 blurry graphics and specs:roll:

[THE_MASK]

This game sounds like a modders dream came true .

[Tikigod]

It all comes down to people's standards. Some people have higher standards than others. Some people don't mind things half-@$$ed in their lives, while others do not. Its all about what you desire and expect out of life. If you don't want much out of life, then you won't get much out of life. The same goes for gaming or any product or service out there.

The negativity on the forums isn't from bugs, the negativity is from lack of support for the game by the developer. The game was sold unfinished and was abandoned after a few patches that failed to fix simple issues (such as broken instruments). On top of that an SDK was never released.

There are developers out there that do support their games (as shocking as this may be to some of you on here) Here is a list of a few that stand out in my mind:

IL2 Series (Initial release of latest engine: 2003, Oleg Maddox continues to patch and support his products to this day)
Falcon 4.0: Allied Force (Built from code developed a decade ago (1998)..the new owners of the code have currently released their 10th patch and continue to support the product)
Medal Of Honor Series (Released Completed, Excellent Quality, noticeable bugs?)
Call of Duty Series (Released Completed, Excellent Quality, noticeable bugs?)
Brothers in Arms Series (Released Completed, Excellent Quality, noticeable bugs?)
Hidden and Dangerous 2 (Released Completed, Excellent Quality, noticeable bugs?)
Company of Heroes (Released Completed, Excellent Quality, noticeable bugs? Continued support and minor patches)
Flight Simulator Series (Released Completed, small patch support, but, allows open ended developent, SDK)
Operation Flashpoint (Released Completed, extensive patch support. Allowed open ended developent, released: SDK after patches were finalized)
Armed Assault (patching as we speak, patches guarantee major fixes, open ended developent: most likely will release an SDK)
Battlefield 1942/Battlefield 2 Series (excellent quality, continued patching and support for products even after expansions and sequels were released. Products are open ended for mod support)
Command and Conquer Series (Released Finished, Excellent Quality (noticeable bugs?)
Soldiers: Heroes of World War II (limited patching, unnoticeable bugs to most who play, open ended for modding)
Faces of War (limited patching, unnoticeable bugs to most who play, open ended for modding)
Steel Beasts (excellent quality, continued patching and support)

Then there are console games which require a game to be finished and complete upon release. Console games do not allow for a "patching crutch" for developers to lean on as found in the PC market.

Expectations of an incomplete game and lack of future product support already before a game is even released is the main reason I am holding off on my purchase of SH4 this time around.

Each developer develops more than just a game. They develop a work history. If a game does not get support it needs when the majority of the public continues to play it, then why should I support any future products that will most likely be abandoned within a few months after release?

[CCIP]

I think it's too early to talk about lack of support!

Also notice how most of the games you listed were high-budget, mass-published games with lots of commercial expensions. The only exception to it is Falcon 4, which is not really an exception because it was abandoned by its publisher (and not developers) after about 5 patches, and was only brought back with a new commercial release that was made possible by the game's lingering popularity thanks to the mod community.

It's a vicious circle, but if people don't buy SHIV because of some of the issues, I'm not surprised if the support is cut off earlier than it should be.

Likewise, it's unfair to say that the devs are to blame for lack of any support. Also, I think by 1.04b of SHIII the game itself was very much functional - developments since then focused mostly on features.

I do agree that SHIV will need a bit more patching, perhaps, but I don't see how in a few months (remember - 1.04b of SHIV was released within ~3 months of the original publication, on the heels of 3 more patches) wouldn't do it good!

[Ducimus]

Nice list, but i have to ask, Is there a PC game that did not require a patch?

It's undeniable some games out there play without major hitches l out of the box, but they did get a patch. (COD series for example) Then theres the exact opposite. Atari published "boiling point". Nearly unplayable out of the box, and support dropped very quickly.

Patch's on pc games are about as inevitable as like death and taxes. Thus In my opinion, theres really no judging until after the final patch has been made and support dropped.

On a side note, some people here im guessing couldnt handle MMO's very well. Game with a constant stream of patches after patches after patchs. Hell, you can d/l patches for 4 to 6 hours straight on some of those games after installing it.

[Shaffer4]

City of Heroes MMO.... :shifty:

[Rilder]

One of the advantages of being "older" is that I was raised to have an imagination. It really helps in these trying times.

Like for instance...

Whenever a new Submarine was built, before the navy took possession, the plankowner crew would have it out for several weeks of sea trials. During this time countless flaws, mistakes and problems were discovered and fixed.

Sometimes the Sonar didn't work properly.

Sometimes the Radar didn't work properly.

Sometimes torpedos didn't work properly

Sometimes thing were just broken. (anyone see where I am going here?)

So back to the yard with a list of what needed to be fixed the Captain and Crew went and, most of the time, they got most of them fixed. But dollars to donuts there has never been a Submarine that was 100% perfect when it sailed into harms way.

So for every little problem I will find I just tell myself "Back to the yard with my list" and my fervent hope that the yard will be able to fix it. But if not, I know I have a good enough crew that we can overcome any faults or problems so we can take the fight to the enemy.

But I guess you have to be older to get your mind working that way.

JCC

Still patiently waiting for the news that it has landed locally.


Yep! Call it a shakedown. Just like the real deal:yep:

Heck even in Star Trek they had these, no matter the technology, no matter what, theres always gonna be something screwed up out of port, like them forgetting to install an engine in a sub.

[John Channing]

It all comes down to people's standards. Some people have higher standards than others. Some people don't mind things half-@$$ed in their lives, while others do not. Its all about what you desire and expect out of life. If you don't want much out of life, then you won't get much out of life. The same goes for gaming or any product or service out there.

The negativity on the forums isn't from bugs, the negativity is from lack of support for the game by the developer. The game was sold unfinished and was abandoned after a few patches that failed to fix simple issues (such as broken instruments). On top of that an SDK was never released.

There are developers out there that do support their games (as shocking as this may be to some of you on here) Here is a list of a few that stand out in my mind:

IL2 Series (Initial release of latest engine: 2003, Oleg Maddox continues to patch and support his products to this day)
Falcon 4.0: Allied Force (Built from code developed a decade ago (1998)..the new owners of the code have currently released their 10th patch and continue to support the product)
Medal Of Honor Series (Released Completed, Excellent Quality, noticeable bugs?)
Call of Duty Series (Released Completed, Excellent Quality, noticeable bugs?)
Brothers in Arms Series (Released Completed, Excellent Quality, noticeable bugs?)
Hidden and Dangerous 2 (Released Completed, Excellent Quality, noticeable bugs?)
Company of Heroes (Released Completed, Excellent Quality, noticeable bugs? Continued support and minor patches)
Flight Simulator Series (Released Completed, small patch support, but, allows open ended developent, SDK)
Operation Flashpoint (Released Completed, extensive patch support. Allowed open ended developent, released: SDK after patches were finalized)
Armed Assault (patching as we speak, patches guarantee major fixes, open ended developent: most likely will release an SDK)
Battlefield 1942/Battlefield 2 Series (excellent quality, continued patching and support for products even after expansions and sequels were released. Products are open ended for mod support)
Command and Conquer Series (Released Finished, Excellent Quality (noticeable bugs?)
Soldiers: Heroes of World War II (limited patching, unnoticeable bugs to most who play, open ended for modding)
Faces of War (limited patching, unnoticeable bugs to most who play, open ended for modding)
Steel Beasts (excellent quality, continued patching and support)

Then there are console games which require a game to be finished and complete upon release. Console games do not allow for a "patching crutch" for developers to lean on as found in the PC market.

Expectations of an incomplete game and lack of future product support already before a game is even released is the main reason I am holding off on my purchase of SH4 this time around.

Each developer develops more than just a game. They develop a work history. If a game does not get support it needs when the majority of the public continues to play it, then why should I support any future products that will most likely be abandoned within a few months after release?

There is another possibility that you negelected to mention.

Some people have perspective, patience and faith.

Please try to show a little more respect for people who may have a different approach to matters than you do.

JCC

[Tikigod]

I think it's too early to talk about lack of support!

Then don't talk about it. That's probably what they want. :P

Also notice how most of the games you listed were high-budget, mass-published games with lots of commercial expensions. The only exception to it is Falcon 4, which is not really an exception because it was abandoned by its publisher (and not developers) after about 5 patches, and was only brought back with a new commercial release that was made possible by the game's lingering popularity thanks to the mod community.
And what is Silent Hunter 3 or Ubisoft? Not mass published or high-budgeted? Try telling that to them or any of the stores that sell their products. As for the others: Bohemia Interactive is a small team out in Czech Republic and they seem to be doing ok with patching and support internationally. Oleg Maddox is one person he seems to be handling fine under the same publisher. It doesn't take many people to finish games or patch simple fixes after a release. Captain America fixed the instrument bugs using his limited techniques in modding. (He didn't require a mass budget or publisher)

As for Falcon the publisher did abandon the game and like you said some of the developers did not. That is why the game continued to survive which is exactly my point.

Falcon is an example of people still trying to get a hold of copies of the original game off ebay just so they can play the modded versions. Its the only game I know of that has became more popular after it was modded than when it was sold in stores. (I'm not sure what Silent Hunter 3 would have against this if they would just support further modding with an SDK) I'm sure if Lead Pursuit sold original copies of Falcon 4.0 they could sell those as much as Allied Force just because of the interest in the current mods for it.


It's a vicious circle, but if people don't buy SHIV because of some of the issues, I'm not surprised if the support is cut off earlier than it should be.
Developers don't patch and support games based on sales figures. They patch and support based on if they are willing to. This may be a business model for SH3 but, it isn't for other titles. I find it to be a bad business model especially from a company that depends on sales of its future titles. If SH4 doesn't sell then SH3 will be to blame. Let them learn from it.

Also, if Silent Hunter III's sales were so vicious then, why are they coming out with a 4th one? They need to stop making submarine sims if noone is buying them. I doubt switching submarine from the Atlantic to the Pacific is going to help if they are stuck in such a vicious cycle and can't get out.


Likewise, it's unfair to say that the devs are to blame for lack of any support. Also, I think by 1.04b of SHIII the game itself was very much functional - developments since then focused mostly on features.
Someone is to blame. Is it Ubisoft? because Oleg Maddox seems to have no problem supporting his games under the same publisher.

Silent Hunter 3 only became functional after RUB 1.45 was released not 1.4b. Many people left in frustration before then. That is why RUB 1.45 was a base for every supermod that has been made since. The developers could have patched problems like the misaligned and improper readings on gauges. SH3 is a simulator and you NEED things like gauges on a submarine. Its not like a plane where you can just see where you are. Its not a complicated F-16 either. Its a Uboat that consists of very few buttons, gauges, and dials. Not too much that can go wrong from a development standpoint (compared to other titles). These aren't drastic changes that will pull resources away from other games. They are minor fixes that were given up on completely.

[Tikigod]

Explain your post....

I would like to know your perspective if it applies to the discussion. But, so far it hasn't explained much.


There is another possibility that you negelected to mention.

Some people have perspective, patience and faith.

Please try to show a little more respect for people who may have a different approach to matters than you do.

JCC

[stabiz]

Yeah, I dont get that either.

BTW, that list contains several of my favourite games. S:HoWW2 is the most underrated and unnoticed gem ever!

[cappy70]

I beta tested H&D 2, internal beta test.

Do you know how many days/evenings I sat just testing how different weapons worked in different vehicles when shot in motion (MP) and that the amount of bullets in the clips was right toward the amount of shots and that the numbers of bullets left in clip was right towards that amount of shot you did and then that the numbers shown on screen of bullets left in clip was right??????

[Reece]

I'd say something but after reading the "SH4 Bug Thread", I'm just soooo disappointed, the patch will have to be HUGE!:cry:
Realistically, knowing all of these problems, who would call paying AU $100 for SH4 a wise decision!:-?

[TheSatyr]

Anyone ever stop to consider that the future of sub sim games is riding on SH4? If comments in this forum turn people away from buying it and if the cooler heads fail to prevail,than SH4 could very well be the last of the series.

I did beta testing (and board moderating) for Starfleet Command:Orion Pirates and Starfleet Command 3 and I still maintain to this day that the negativity and basic ranting in the boards about both games (especially by the Star Fleet Battles crowd) led to their poor sales. None of which I or the majority of the testers felt was warrented.

Having been a beta tester gives me different perspective towards bugs in SH4. I have yet to read about an actual show stopping bug. FSAA is simply a personal preference thing that I doubt most casual gamers are going to care about all that much. Those that complain how the game looks on a 20-24 inch monitor need to stop and consider that they are in a small minority. The majority of pc users have 17 inch monitors,so obviously that's what SH4 is going to be set to run on.

As for the other bugs,they certainly sound fixable. Course it may take time since they have to make sure the fixes didn't break anything new. (Which was our main job when beta testing patches...making sure the code fixes didn't introduce new problems).

I have no doubts at all that it will only take a few patches to make SH4 into a true winner...if the sales actually warrent putting out the time and money to create the needed patches.

[Aimbot]

I actually kind of like bugs. Not having them, but seeing a game go through the patching progress kind of makes you appreciate the game more when you've got the final version. Also many modding communities are formed by people hoping to eliminate bugs, and it's how they begin to get familiar with the game.

I have seen it at the release of virtually every new title including SH3. The forums for the game "Oblivion" were a rioutus affair with at least a dozen locks a day. It took them nearly 6 months to calm down.
I was there. At one point I was called a fanboy because I said punching Todd Howard (the creator od TES and a producer) in the face would be an extreme raction. In all fairness, the guy might have been joking, but with the way people were acting...


I thought Oblivion was a fine game, to have it said, even if it was a little shorter lived than Morrowind.

Also, am I the only one here that actually plays console games? The majority of them have bugs, even the occasional show stopper. Super Swing Golf froze up on me just the other day. Even though they publish for a standardized console that doesn't change between users they still have problems. One of the reasons I love Nintendo is that they are the only console publisher ever that I've never seen a bug from. Hell, my cousin's PS3 more or less exploded less than a month ago, and even Sony couldn't tell him why.
And to use the car analogy: My Mini Cooper, new, had a problem with the power windows that was common to the car. The windows fit into the car so tightly the motor could barely raise them and with a nasty scraping sound. There were scratches on the windows it was so tight. The dealership knew what it was and had it fixed in less than a day. It was a common problem.

[DJSatane]

Anyone ever stop to consider that the future of sub sim games is riding on SH4? If comments in this forum turn people away from buying it and if the cooler heads fail to prevail,than SH4 could very well be the last of the series.

I did beta testing (and board moderating) for Starfleet Command:Orion Pirates and Starfleet Command 3 and I still maintain to this day that the negativity and basic ranting in the boards about both games (especially by the Star Fleet Battles crowd) led to their poor sales. None of which I or the majority of the testers felt was warrented.

Having been a beta tester gives me different perspective towards bugs in SH4. I have yet to read about an actual show stopping bug. FSAA is simply a personal preference thing that I doubt most casual gamers are going to care about all that much. Those that complain how the game looks on a 20-24 inch monitor need to stop and consider that they are in a small minority. The majority of pc users have 17 inch monitors,so obviously that's what SH4 is going to be set to run on.

As for the other bugs,they certainly sound fixable. Course it may take time since they have to make sure the fixes didn't break anything new. (Which was our main job when beta testing patches...making sure the code fixes didn't introduce new problems).

I have no doubts at all that it will only take a few patches to make SH4 into a true winner...if the sales actually warrent putting out the time and money to create the needed patches.

Btw, I did beta for SFC1 and SFC2 and I remember those times. Btw the failure of those series and Taldren was moving away from SFB and trying to please arcade players. That eroded the original SFC1 fan base when SFC3 was released. The game was dumbed which was one of the problems. I still consider SFC1 one of the best games I ever played. I wish they stayed in that area instead of trying to please arcade shooters.

Now moving onto SH4, as you may know SH3 multiplayer was never fixed, the server to client damage bug that caused clients receive near instant death from any depth charge in the water within specific long range distance was the killer. I said to myself I want SH4 to basically be what SH3 is aftter 1.4 patch and have multiplayer that works.

Now I don't know yet whether multiplayer is working fine and I wont know until the weekend. But there is a crazy amount of bugs popping up that really worry me. Sure the resolution of 3d engine being locked at only 1024 and no fsaa is negative but I can swallow that to a certain degree. But for example chronometer not working at all in manual tdc or a quite regular crash to dekstop when clicking statdameter really get on my nerves. I have read a number of other issues. Now in reality we wont see any more patches for SH4 than we saw with SH3(3-4). Each of those patches fixed very small number of issues. I do hope it fixes major gameplay bugs and maybe if possible fix few graphical issues like maybe allowing to turn off specific effects to allow AA.

These series was my dream since SH2, SH3 + gwx mod is great in single player(mp bugged), and I really hope SH4 can be actually playable online. However, high amount of fear hit my head over past few days:(

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

Theres this little phenomena that often occurs in a community before game is released that i like to call the "Next Gaming Messiah" syndrome. Great expectations that no title can meet. WHEN the game doesn't live up to these expectations, people are crushed. Then they get angry, as if slighted on a personal level, and then vent it on a forum.

Then what can occur is umm what i beleive is best reffered to as a "pack mentatliy" or "mob behvior". As the old saying goes, Misery loves company.


In my opinion, having been gaming on PC's for more years then i can recollect, ive learned there exists a simple fact people have a hard time to accept. New games have broken features. New game means, buy it in a couple months. Sad but true. Anyone whos been gaming for any length of time should know this.

Personnaly, i never preorder, and i rarely buy a game fresh on the shelves, because i know theres going to be stuff broken, and id rather wait for the patch, or wait until the price drops. Now, this is my normal behavior, SH4 i preodred, and i did so knowing full well what id' have to put up with, but i preordered it anyway. Hence i have absolutly no excuse whatsoever to bitch, whine, moan or complain because i knew better, and id hold the same standard to anyone whos been gaming for any length of time. To me, this is a reality, and people need to get a grip.

You sir, are a God.

[CptGrayWolf]

I also don't enjoy complainers and negativity but let's be careful here.
Just because we all enjoy subsims doesn't mean we have to accept everything they sell us with a big smile.
There is nothing wrong with pointing out bugs and faults. 60$ is alot of money for some people.

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

Anyone ever stop to consider that the future of sub sim games is riding on SH4? If comments in this forum turn people away from buying it and if the cooler heads fail to prevail,than SH4 could very well be the last of the series.

I did beta testing (and board moderating) for Starfleet Command:Orion Pirates and Starfleet Command 3 and I still maintain to this day that the negativity and basic ranting in the boards about both games (especially by the Star Fleet Battles crowd) led to their poor sales. None of which I or the majority of the testers felt was warrented.



And I hear the same argument from fans/followers of just about every single simulation community. I've no vested interest in their success beyond perhaps buying their titles, and I'm not going to pay twice to get one good game in future. And if they rip fans, and I stress if, then why shouldn't they repeat it in future if they know they can get away with it already?

I've got the Deluxe edition pre-ordered, delivered yesterday, I could've cancelled but as Ducimus says you make your choices knowing full well what could happen. But it doesn't mean I'm going to just blindly part with my cash if I don't like the product in some misguided belief I should support the future of the genre.

Whilst Ducimus does state that games can and will have bugs, and they can be rectified, there's a certain limit to how bad it can get. I've not yet played the game so I'm going to defer judgement on this, but let's be honest - did Ubi really fix SH3, or did the modders do it for them for free?

[Ducimus]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and venture a guess that few people here are real newbies to PC games in general. Hence, based on that assesment, everyone here has had past experiences of some sort or another with games that had some glaring bugs at release. If all that is true, my question to you is, dId you REALLY expect anything different in relation to bugs? If you did, you were fooling yourself.


Some people on this thread (who seem rather worked up i might add), have been into SH3 long enough to know what it was like before patch 1.4b. I mean, ****, i remember when there were forum debates in regards as if it were better to play patch, or unpatched since patch 1.3 broke the soundman? Remember that people?! There are STILL, MANY bugs in SH3 that remain unfixed.

Getting all worked up and ranting on the forum like some stark rathing uptight lunatic on a crusade is not going to solve anything. You had the power to speak to Ubi all along - with your wallet. Now if you know how the last silent hunter release went, and you preordered SH4.. well.. you should have known better. As the saying goes, Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Now, if ya'll will exuse me, im going to go check on my preorder status and wistfully wish i could play that damn game - bugs and all.

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

As the saying goes, Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Now, if ya'll will exuse me, im going to go check on my preorder status and wistfully wish i could play that damn game - bugs and all.

Amen

[StandingCow]

The real problem is people starting to think that releasing unfinished games is acceptable (Im not saying this about SH4 yet, I haven't played it).

I understand some bugs are going to be discovered, and need to be patched, thats fine, but major game stopping bugs are inexcusable.

[Dantenoc]

I haven't gotten the game yet, so this post should not be interpreted in any way relating to it. Instead, it's a comment on today's state of the software industry, by way of an impartial but personal (and hence maybe flawed) opinion on the views expresed in this thread.

Background: In the old days of computers, scientists experienced erratic problems and break-downs that were soon found out to be caused by rodents eating the electrical wires on the machines (:o How crazy is that?) It surely wasn't anybody's fault. And hence the term "bug" (i.e.: the rodent) was coined for unexplicable and/or unavoidable problems in the computer world.

Example of a true modern day bug:
Having your network crash frequently only to later find out that the issue can be completely resolved by repositioning your router from on top of the CPU case to another spot on your desk.

Example of neglect wrongly labeled as a bug:
The Y2K "bug". This was simply the result of someone that thought it would be a good idea to shorthand the "year" data by only using the last two digits (WOW, you saved two bytes of memory, your a genius!!, who cares what happens at the turn of the century when we hit 2000? Will all be driving flying cars by then!! :88) )

My opinion is: Every piece of complicated software is bound to have some few obscure and incredibly hard to track down bugs... however, that should not be used as an excuse for neglect, if and when it presents itself.

Something can be either possible or impossible, but not both at the same time. If something can be done correctly at the n-th try, then that proves that it is possible to do it correctly, and therefore could have been done correctly since the first try.

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

This is less a case of hard to find bugs, and as StandingCow says a simple case of deciding they've done enough and willfully putting out an unfinished product.

[It762]

I am sure a lot of people said it already before but here I go again :)

As long as the gaming industry is able to sell their software with show stopping bugs and the consumers yell after they paid, they will dish out a few patches and then slowly the support will decrease, maybe another patch and some extra gimmicks (easy because you have the sources right :)) to keep the crowd happy and then finally you move on to your next product.

Of course there are exceptions ID software for example, these guys deserve some prizes. I do not know about the newer games from them but Quake2 + 3 was supported very well and very moddable.

So only way for us consumers is:
1) Buy the game and check it out.
2) If it is unaplayable because it is a bug-eaten-piece-of-Software RETURN it to the retailer and tell him and ask your money back.
3) Do not buy it until patched thoroughly.

Maybe this would show companies total revenue, loss because of insufficient quality assurance and customer churn as well as the profit when the game gets patched properly.

If the crowd handles it this way they will feel pressure.

And if Ubisoft does not want to sell subsim's anymore because of "low sales" someone else will jump on the train! Don't worry and don't make yourself dependent on one company! Good software will sell!

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

Don't worry and don't make yourself dependent on one company! Good software will sell!

That's a whole discussion in itself. I expect everyone who's been playing PC games from the late 80s onwards will have stories of brilliant games that didn't sell.

[Immacolata]

The real problem is people starting to think that releasing unfinished games is acceptable (Im not saying this about SH4 yet, I haven't played it).


Starting to think? Mate, it has been the state of affairs for decades. People can think what they want. Even consoles get their share of buggy releases. Its like that other guy said, inevitable like death and tax :)

[Grothesj2]

I wish I had my pre-order installed already but alas, not arrived yet. I am fully expecting lots of little bugs just like most PC software. But I am patient and as long as I can still play I'll be happy while the bugs patched. I am concerned about some of the crash to desktops that some have experienced. Happened all too frequently when I got SHIII before the first patches. I suspect though, that there is already a patch almost ready to go since they would have kept testing between the time the CDs were pressed/packaged and now.

[cherbert]

Whatever way you look at it they ARE using us as beta testers and there is also an element of getting it out the door quick.

I have an XBOX 360 and yes, I'll admit, they do have occasional patches but there is NEVER a showstopping bug on the scale of SH4 or other bug ridden first release PC games. Why? Becuase they go through intense testing phases and even Microsoft quality control has the final say - and if ain't right they send it right back to the developer/publisher!

The fact is we don't have these stringent controls in place like Microsoft has in place for its gaming console.

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

I wonder if microsoft QA/QC people get off on the irony of them turning down bug ridden software for a piece of hardware

[StandingCow]

The real problem is people starting to think that releasing unfinished games is acceptable (Im not saying this about SH4 yet, I haven't played it).


Starting to think? Mate, it has been the state of affairs for decades. People can think what they want. Even consoles get their share of buggy releases. Its like that other guy said, inevitable like death and tax :)

Well, I wasn't saying we are just now starting to think this way, but people starting to think this way at all is not good.

When will they learn :(

[John Channing]

Explain your post....

I would like to know your perspective if it applies to the discussion. But, so far it hasn't explained much.


There is another possibility that you negelected to mention.

Some people have perspective, patience and faith.

Please try to show a little more respect for people who may have a different approach to matters than you do.

JCC
Well... seeing as you asked.

There is another way to categorize people.

On one hand you have people who recognize there are flaws in the product but understand the process and the limitations the developers AND the publishers work under. They realize that it would be delusional to compare the budget for money, time and resources that a product like Silent Hunter 4 would have to something like a M$ or a mass market EA product. They also understand that the Romanian studio of Ubisoft is just that... a part of a larger company, with all of the inherent pressures and limitations that brings. Lastly they understand that to compare Silent Hunter 4 to a 10 year old product that was, quite possibly, the worst software release in gaming history, and that has undergone 10 years of fan-based FREE development time and is still not working as it should is just foolish. This is where the perspective part comes in.

I note that on the list of products that you praise, virtually every one (including the ones you say were released "Finished") needed patching.... some as much as 15 patches and others 10 years of work to get them there. It would be nice if you would accord as much slack to Silent Hunter 4 which hasn't even been officially released yet. That would be the patience part.

The faith part is believing that Dan and his team will do everything they can to fix as many of the problems as they can as soon as they can. History and experience has proven this to be the case.

On the other hand we have people who think it is their right to come onto forums and throw around irresponsible claims and accusations about something they have absolutely no personal knowledge of. When you couple this with an insulting, arrogant attitude is where people start to get into problems.

People often ask me "How do you get to be a Moderator" or, more recently "How do you get to be on the Beta Test team"? The answer is simple.

In situations like this instead of giving in to the urge to rant, vent and spew people should take a more pro-active leadership role. Recognize the flaws, of course, but don't limit your actions to pointless complaining on an anonymous forum. Put down your anger and work with the developers AND publishers to improve and fix the problem. Commit yourself with actions as well as words to making things better.

The problem with this approach is that it is hard. It requires hours of work and involvement... hours that could be spent doing something else (like actually playing the damn thing). It also requires a maturity that has been sadly lacking here for the last few days. And I am not talking about the much-vaunted “Mod Community”. While I stand behind no one in my respect for what they have accomplished I always try to keep those accomplishments in perspective. If you are wondering what I mean by that try un-installing Silent Hunter 3 and then, once it is totally removed from your system, try installing NYGM or GWX. It is a less that gratifying experience.

Now, if you were asking me to explain why you should respect other people’s opinions I really don't need to do that... I hope.

JCC

[joea]

Well put Mr. Channing. :sunny:

[Immacolata]

Well put? That entire post was completely blank to me O.o Am I going blind?

[ACSoft]

Explain your post....

I would like to know your perspective if it applies to the discussion. But, so far it hasn't explained much.


There is another possibility that you negelected to mention.

Some people have perspective, patience and faith.

Please try to show a little more respect for people who may have a different approach to matters than you do.

JCC
Well... seeing as you asked.
There is another way to categorize people.
On one hand you have people who recognize there are flaws in the product but understand the process and the limitations the developers AND the publishers work under. They realize that it would be delusional to compare the budget for money, time and resources that a product like Silent Hunter 4 would have to something like a M$ or a mass market EA product. They also understand that the Romanian studio of Ubisoft is just that... a part of a larger company, with all of the inherent pressures and limitations that brings. Lastly they understand that to compare Silent Hunter 4 to a 10 year old product that was, quite possibly, the worst software release in gaming history, and that has undergone 10 years of fan-based FREE development time and is still not working as it should is just foolish. This is where the perspective part comes in.
I note that on the list of products that you praise, virtually every one (including the ones you say were released "Finished") needed patching.... some as much as 15 patches and others 10 years of work to get them there. It would be nice if you would accord as much slack to Silent Hunter 4 which hasn't even been officially released yet. That would be the patience part.
The faith part is believing that Dan and his team will do everything they can to fix as many of the problems as they can as soon as they can. History and experience has proven this to be the case.
On the other hand we have people who think it is their right to come onto forums and throw around irresponsible claims and accusations about something they have absolutely no personal knowledge of. When you couple this with an insulting, arrogant attitude is where people start to get into problems.
People often ask me "How do you get to be a Moderator" or, more recently "How do you get to be on the Beta Test team"? The answer is simple.
In situations like this instead of giving in to the urge to rant, vent and spew people should take a more pro-active leadership role. Recognize the flaws, of course, but don't limit your actions to pointless complaining on an anonymous forum. Put down your anger and work with the developers AND publishers to improve and fix the problem. Commit yourself with actions as well as words to making things better.
The problem with this approach is that it is hard. It requires hours of work and involvement... hours that could be spent doing something else (like actually playing the damn thing). It also requires a maturity that has been sadly lacking here for the last few days. And I am not talking about the much-vaunted "Mod Community". While I stand behind no one in my respect for what they have accomplished I always try to keep those accomplishments in perspective. If you are wondering what I mean by that try un-installing Silent Hunter 3 and then, once it is totally removed from your system, try installing NYGM or GWX. It is a less that gratifying experience.
Now, if you were asking me to explain why you should respect other people’s opinions I really don't need to do that... I hope.

JCC


I put it in white, so peoples will be able to read this pathetic message :cry: :cry: :cry:

Maybe we should organize a collection for those poor Romanian developers & this poor Ubisoft publisher. No, I have a better idea: Now, everybody must prepay the next version, so they will have enough money to continue.

More seriously, if SH4 would be a product made by a non lucrative organisation, like it happened, for example, with Falcon4, I would totally agree with what you say, but it isn't the case. SH4 is a commercial product. Just a commercial product.

You are the second moderator I see on this forum, which forget to stay neutral in this debate. To my view, this is a shame and I will start to believe that Subsim is sponsorised by Ubisoft.

ACS

[nvdrifter]

The only thing that matters is will the major bugs and unfinished or missing features ever be fixed? No one really knows for sure. I'm sure that there will be at least one or two patches released, but we don't really know what will be fixed in those patches. If major problems and features are not fixed in their patches, then we are screwed, because most of these problems people are complaining about are hard-coded and modders won't be able to fix most of them. In other words, if Ubisoft doesn't fix these problems in a patches, they probably won't ever be fixed due to hard-coding.

[bishop]

More seriously, if SH4 would be a product made by a non lucrative organisation, like it happened, for example, with Falcon4, I would totally agree with what you say, but it isn't the case. SH4 is a commercial product. Just a commercial product.

You're kidding, right? I hope you're not trying to make a case that Falcon4 was not a commercial product. Non lucrative organizations? Do you have any clue how much time and money was poured into the original release by first Spectrum Holobyte and then Microprose????

[Iron Budokan]

Well said!

Stick around, we need a cool head like you around to help these ladies get through this trying time in their life. :ping:

LOL! But I can't help it. I always get the vapors when a new sub sim comes out.... :oops:

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

One of the advantages of being "older" is that I was raised to have an imagination. It really helps in these trying times.

Like for instance...

Whenever a new Submarine was built, before the navy took possession, the plankowner crew would have it out for several weeks of sea trials. During this time countless flaws, mistakes and problems were discovered and fixed.

Sometimes the Sonar didn't work properly.

Sometimes the Radar didn't work properly.

Sometimes torpedos didn't work properly

Sometimes thing were just broken. (anyone see where I am going here?)

So back to the yard with a list of what needed to be fixed the Captain and Crew went and, most of the time, they got most of them fixed. But dollars to donuts there has never been a Submarine that was 100% perfect when it sailed into harms way.

So for every little problem I will find I just tell myself "Back to the yard with my list" and my fervent hope that the yard will be able to fix it. But if not, I know I have a good enough crew that we can overcome any faults or problems so we can take the fight to the enemy.

But I guess you have to be older to get your mind working that way.

JCC

Still patiently waiting for the news that it has landed locally.

Considering the core parts of the game are based on SH3, I'd say we had the shakedown cruise 2 years ago. And also considering Ubi themselves said in one of the developer videos that since that is so, the will only need to be upgraded within a condensed development schedule - it comes direct from the horses mouth. This should've been a piece of piss really, but once again they went gold and rushed to release it the moment the initial coding was done, with very little time - if any as far as we can tell - spent seriously debugging it, beta testers or not.

[Hitman]

I am sure a lot of people said it already before but here I go again :)

As long as the gaming industry is able to sell their software with show stopping bugs and the consumers yell after they paid, they will dish out a few patches and then slowly the support will decrease, maybe another patch and some extra gimmicks (easy because you have the sources right :)) to keep the crowd happy and then finally you move on to your next product.

Of course there are exceptions ID software for example, these guys deserve some prizes. I do not know about the newer games from them but Quake2 + 3 was supported very well and very moddable.

So only way for us consumers is:
1) Buy the game and check it out.
2) If it is unaplayable because it is a bug-eaten-piece-of-Software RETURN it to the retailer and tell him and ask your money back.
3) Do not buy it until patched thoroughly.

Maybe this would show companies total revenue, loss because of insufficient quality assurance and customer churn as well as the profit when the game gets patched properly.

If the crowd handles it this way they will feel pressure.

And if Ubisoft does not want to sell subsim's anymore because of "low sales" someone else will jump on the train! Don't worry and don't make yourself dependent on one company! Good software will sell!


Unfortunately, this works well for soccer games and 1st person shooters, but not for naval simulations :down: I'm the first one to support that procedure when it can be applied. It is certainly reasonable, but in naval simulations the deal is different: You either get this now and support the Devs to patch it, or you don't get nothing at all. NOTHING. Someone else will jump on the train? Can you name at least one? Who has showed interest in doing a submarine simulation in recent years besides UBI?

Here is a fact: SH3 came with bugs, and we got four patches later covering the essentials. It sold well, and UBI did a SH4 with huge potential for modders.

Here is another fact: Nobody else did a submarine game in the SH3 style in all those years. Let alone a bug-free one.

Let me suggest a different approach: Show support and positive critizism, so that UBI keeps interest in our market, and may be another company sees that a market with loyal and positive customers is one that even though small might be worth investing in. :yep:

Just imagine you were an EA marketing guy and were looking around in these forums to see the response of the "average" customer to the release of SH4. Would you think this is a business worth stepping in for EA? Or would you take a look at the "I cancelled my order" thread and decide submarine simulations are no good? :damn:

EDITED TO ADD:

I put it in white, so peoples will be able to read this pathetic message :cry: :cry: :cry:

Maybe we should organize a collection for those poor Romanian developers & this poor Ubisoft publisher. No, I have a better idea: Now, everybody must prepay the next version, so they will have enough money to continue.

More seriously, if SH4 would be a product made by a non lucrative organisation, like it happened, for example, with Falcon4, I would totally agree with what you say, but it isn't the case. SH4 is a commercial product. Just a commercial product.

You are the second moderator I see on this forum, which forget to stay neutral in this debate. To my view, this is a shame and I will start to believe that Subsim is sponsorised by Ubisoft.


I think a comparison of John's arguments and yours is pretty self-explanatory. No further comments on that needed.

FYI moderators stick to the web's official policy, which in the case of commenting and critisizing SH4 tries to be neutral, respecting negative critizism but encouraging positive one. John was asked to further explain his position and so he did, nothing else.

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

Considering EA own 20% of Ubi they wouldn't go head-to-head and they'd probably be thinking "hey they do just like us", before going back to count how the sales figures.

[CCIP]

Likewise I don't see why moderators are prohibited from openly supporting the game!

Why not? I'm a very minor mod, but I always very openly supported SHIII and IV, and I never saw harm in that. Likewise I also endorsed certain mods for SHIII.

I think the moderators have been playing a good balancing role here. This thread is a 'reality check' to try and stem some of the negativity. I think criticism and negativity are different thing. I think one can tear apart SHIV's software downfalls without attacking any companies or individuals involved, and without making it sound like a disaster of some sort.

I think the amount of criticism is also disproportional to the value of an $50 game. I'd love to hear of a better way that someone who wants a good subsim to spend 50 bucks (assuming they already have SHIII) :p

[fredbass]

Well maybe someday, in the not so distant future, there will come a point where games can consistantly be released in better shape than they currently are. I don't really know how or when that may happen, but it certainly would be a welcome site for sure. Maybe there just needs to be a new set of rules and standards which all developers/publishers must follow. In the mean time, we'll continue to have these bitch sessions and wait for patches. :roll:

[John Channing]

One of the advantages of being "older" is that I was raised to have an imagination. It really helps in these trying times.

Like for instance...

Whenever a new Submarine was built, before the navy took possession, the plankowner crew would have it out for several weeks of sea trials. During this time countless flaws, mistakes and problems were discovered and fixed.

Sometimes the Sonar didn't work properly.

Sometimes the Radar didn't work properly.

Sometimes torpedos didn't work properly

Sometimes thing were just broken. (anyone see where I am going here?)

So back to the yard with a list of what needed to be fixed the Captain and Crew went and, most of the time, they got most of them fixed. But dollars to donuts there has never been a Submarine that was 100% perfect when it sailed into harms way.

So for every little problem I will find I just tell myself "Back to the yard with my list" and my fervent hope that the yard will be able to fix it. But if not, I know I have a good enough crew that we can overcome any faults or problems so we can take the fight to the enemy.

But I guess you have to be older to get your mind working that way.

JCC

Still patiently waiting for the news that it has landed locally.

Considering the core parts of the game are based on SH3, I'd say we had the shakedown cruise 2 years ago. And also considering Ubi themselves said in one of the developer videos that since that is so, the will only need to be upgraded within a condensed development schedule - it comes direct from the horses mouth. This should've been a piece of piss really, but once again they went gold and rushed to release it the moment the initial coding was done, with very little time - if any as far as we can tell - spent seriously debugging it, beta testers or not.

As I am prohibited by a NDA I cannot go into any details other than to say that your assumptions and interpertations are wrong.

Sorry, but that's probably more than I should have said.

When viewing anything by the developers you have to remember that English is not their native language, and idiom can be a bitch.

JCC

[John Channing]

Damn it's fun when I'm right about having patience and faith.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108143

JCC

[Egan]

[quote]
Here is another fact: Nobody else did a submarine game in the SH3 style in all those years. Let alone a bug-free one.

Let me suggest a different approach: Show support and positive critizism, so that UBI keeps interest in our market, and may be another company sees that a market with loyal and positive customers is one that even though small might be worth investing in. :yep:

A good post from Hitman. Like others, my copy of the sim is still in the post, but, again like others, I've been through all this many times over the years.

The one thing to remember about Ubisoft - and it is something that is often overlooked - is that virtually no other major games company has done quite so much for simulations over the last few years. SH2, 3 and 4, Lock On and all the various IL2 guises have come from that stable. At times their actions and policies have seemed rather dismissive of their customers but they are still putting these sims out. There are other companies who make sims but i doubt many of them have invested nearly as much money as Ubi have regardless of whether it is simply from publishing or from development. While it would be nice to have all our favourite sims created by hardcore indy enthusiasts with infinite funds, it isn't going to happen. I'm quite happy to applaud Ubi for still doing it.

Mind you, threatening not to buy the game because of resolution or FSAA issues seems entirely sensible compared to some things I've seen. I'm sure I remember just before SH3 came out there was one dude here who was refusing to buy it because a handrail on one of the models in a screenshot was different from a photo he had of it in a book....

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

When viewing anything by the developers you have to remember that English is not their native language, and idiom can be a bitch.

JCC

I hear you there, I've spent over half my life living in countries where English certainly isn't native.

[John Channing]

Wait.

It's only going into widespread release now.

JCC

[Onkel Neal]

I put it in white, so peoples will be able to read this pathetic message :cry: :cry: :cry:

Maybe we should organize a collection for those poor Romanian developers & this poor Ubisoft publisher. No, I have a better idea: Now, everybody must prepay the next version, so they will have enough money to continue.

More seriously, if SH4 would be a product made by a non lucrative organisation, like it happened, for example, with Falcon4, I would totally agree with what you say, but it isn't the case. SH4 is a commercial product. Just a commercial product.

You are the second moderator I see on this forum, which forget to stay neutral in this debate. To my view, this is a shame and I will start to believe that Subsim is sponsorised by Ubisoft.

ACS

More like Ubisoft is sponsored by Subsim :)

ACSoft, John's statement is professional and is in line with the stated pupose and policy of this forum.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq.php?faq=susbim_faq_item#faq_rules3_faq_item

What are Subsim.com's editorial policies?The Radio Room forum is not the place for flaming, spewing, or otherwise mouthing off. We do not allow posts where people are called idiots, morons, etc. We respect your freedom of speech, we ask that you respect our rules. You are welcome to express your opinion about games and other subjects. We do not want SUBSIM Review and the Radio Room forums to degenerate into a collection of *This game sux!!!!* and other immature rants. Like something or dislike something about a game, express your thoughts in reasoned and responsible terms. There are any number of forums which allow unbridled idiocy to reign, we want the Radio Room to be a civil, mature forum for discussions about naval and subsims, tactics, mods, playing tips, troubleshooting, and submarine topics in general. As such, we retain the right to edit and/or delete posts we find offensive. We also have the right to ban users who contribute to poisoning the well. Just as a radio talk host has the right to decide who he airs and a newspaper editor decides whose letters he prints and whose he throws away, the moderators in the Radio Room forums have final say on rants and spews they decide should be cut.

Moderators like John and Hitman are the main reason this forum is a civilised place that you may enjoy visiting, where people help each other and don't seek to fight at every turn. We are not a collection of ragtag ranters. We consider ourselves reasonably mature men. We do not follow the norm found in most forums of ranting and damning and piling on a game. We feel this leadership sets us apart. If you don't like the game, don't play it, move on. If you want to discuss the shortcomings of a game, fine. Be constructive. Be thoughtful. We support submarine game companies, all one of them. We may criticise, disagree or push for something, but we do it constructively.

I hope you understand, I am not attacking you, mate. Let's see what we can do to make Ubisoft improve SH4 and make the game successful, so there will be a market for... SHV.

thanks
Neal

[Onkel Neal]

And if Ubisoft does not want to sell subsim's anymore because of "low sales" someone else will jump on the train! Don't worry and don't make yourself dependent on one company! Good software will sell!

Can you guarantee that? :)

I do not like the state of the business either, unfinished games, patches. But it has been this way for as long as I can remember. If anyone has a strategy that will solve this, I am all ears. But there is also risk involved. Making a really good sim like SH4 costs millions in development cost and a lot of expertise. If it is such as attractive market, someone else would be doing it and they would not wait for the subsim community to reject and kill the Silent Hunter series.

[Immacolata]

Making a really good sim like SH4 costs millions in development cost and a lot of expertise. If it is such as attractive market, someone else would be doing it and they would not wait for the subsim community to reject and kill the Silent Hunter series.

You bet. EA would be all over this business with annual "refreshes" of the series. Imagine seeing Silent Hunter being released every year. Since 1994. Without stop. Im not sure I'd like to witness that ^^

[stabiz]

I agree. *shudders*

Imagine all the xpantion packs. "Now, with the Gato! Only 29.99$!"

[Dantenoc]

You bet. EA would be all over this business with annual "refreshes" of the series. Imagine seeing Silent Hunter being released every year. Since 1994. Without stop. Im not sure I'd like to witness that ^^

I would :up:. To each his own, but to me games like the Sims were not only a modders paradise, but it was ground braking (Think about it, it takes cojones to fund a game that is basicaly un-winnable and where you don't do anything other than just... mundane life).

They sometimes tend to be pricy (try buying the whole Sims 2 series in one go) but honestly, we all spend thousands of dollars on computer hardware that does absolutely nothing on it's own. I have no problems with paying for software that will turn my dormant hardware into something usefull (or fun) ;)

Ubisoft could take a gamble and decide to go all out and finally play in the big leagues. All big companies where smaller once, they need to take that leap of faith :yep:

[ACSoft]

More seriously, if SH4 would be a product made by a non lucrative organisation, like it happened, for example, with Falcon4, I would totally agree with what you say, but it isn't the case. SH4 is a commercial product. Just a commercial product.

You're kidding, right? I hope you're not trying to make a case that Falcon4 was not a commercial product. Non lucrative organizations? Do you have any clue how much time and money was poured into the original release by first Spectrum Holobyte and then Microprose????

I was thinking only to the period of SP, BMS or FF Mods teams, who totally rewamped the game, after Microprose abandonned the franchise and disbanded the dev team and before Lead Pursuit retake the franchise.

ACS