Subsim's Silent Hunter 4 review

[Onkel Neal]

Subsim's Silent Hunter 4 review

Unfortunately, Ubisoft did not send my review copy until last week, read into that what you will. So it's impossible to get in three weeks of play and evaluation to base a solid review on before the game hits the shelves. I've put in about 45 hours of gametime so far, I will post my initial impressions tomorrow.

Cheers
Neal

[geetrue]

That's soon enough for me ... :lol:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Subsim's Silent Hunter 4 review

Unfortunately, Ubisoft did not send my review copy until last week, read into that what you will.

Cheers
Neal
That's hard to believe given the resource that subsim and the whole community is to Ubi, look forward to your review Neal:yep:

[Payoff]

Looking forward to this.

[Lt commander lare]

looking forward to your first impressions and your review

lt commander lare

[Lt commander lare]

can you at least let us know how the damage control section works and how you deal with flooding since there is no cutaway showing us the flooding entering the various compartments

lt commander lare

[hyperion2206]

Subsim's Silent Hunter 4 review

Unfortunately, Ubisoft did not send my review copy until last week, read into that what you will. So it's impossible to get in three weeks of play and evaluation to base a solid review on before the game hits the shelves. I've put in about 45 hours of gametime so far, I will post my initial impressions tomorrow.

Cheers
Neal

Neal, you surely know how to shock me! When I first read the title I was really excited to read your review. Then I read further and was deeply disapointed because I thought I had to wait 3 weeks until I can read your review. Don't ver do tha again!:nope::p:arrgh!:

[TDK1044]

Subsim's Silent Hunter 4 review

Unfortunately, Ubisoft did not send my review copy until last week, read into that what you will. So it's impossible to get in three weeks of play and evaluation to base a solid review on before the game hits the shelves. I've put in about 45 hours of gametime so far, I will post my initial impressions tomorrow.

Cheers
Neal

Ubisoft to Neal: "When you can snatch the pebbles from my hand, Grasshopper, it will be time for you to leave."

:D

[Barkhorn1x]

Good deal Neal. :up:

Can you please give some details on manual targeting procedures and jow accurate they are from a historical perspective?

Another poster - Scalekot - listed the following as issues and they may in fact be there because they are historically accurate:

4. From what I can tell, you cant enter the bearing into the torpedo computer manually, it is automatically taken from the periscope when you are locked on the target. Not that big of a deal, but I usually enter everything manually so it will take a bit of getting used to.

5. This is a big one (but keep in mind I only played for like a half hour so I may have just missed it). I couldnt figure out any way to fire a salvo of 2 or more torpedos. It looked like you had to fire one at a time. I hope I just missed it somewhere


Thanks.

[RocketDog]

To be honest, what I would like to know most is if you have been able to force FSAA. If such a basic modern requirement isn't supported then the sim is fundamentally broken and, at least IMHO, not worth buying.

In some gloom,

RD.

[Cigol]

To be honest, what I would like to know most is if you have been able to force FSAA. If such a basic modern requirement isn't supported then the sim is fundamentally broken and, at least IMHO, not worth buying.

In some gloom,

RD.
A lot of games don't support AA and there generally technical reasons for this which prevent it ;) I'm not sure what kind of monitors you lot are running this on, and I don't want to drag the thread offtopic, but anti-aliasing is not a big deal at all with the resolution cranked up on a decent monitor.

Anyway I await the review with baited breath. First impressions from reading comments is not particularly good. I'm personally a fan of all the bells and whistles graphically (as I have a computer that can run it) but cest la vie.

[geetrue]

To be honest, what I would like to know most is if you have been able to force FSAA. If such a basic modern requirement isn't supported then the sim is fundamentally broken and, at least IMHO, not worth buying.

In some gloom,

RD.

My grandfather taught me to never say, "To be honest with you", because it really means that some times your not ... :lol:

hope that helps someone, but Cigol has the best answer I've seen yet on AA ...

A lot of games don't support AA and there generally technical reasons for this which prevent it ;) I'm not sure what kind of monitors you lot are running this on, and I don't want to drag the thread offtopic, but anti-aliasing is not a big deal at all with the resolution cranked up on a decent monitor.

[Spray]

To be honest, what I would like to know most is if you have been able to force FSAA. If such a basic modern requirement isn't supported then the sim is fundamentally broken and, at least IMHO, not worth buying.

In some gloom,

RD. A lot of games don't support AA and there generally technical reasons for this which prevent it ;) I'm not sure what kind of monitors you lot are running this on, and I don't want to drag the thread offtopic, but anti-aliasing is not a big deal at all with the resolution cranked up on a decent monitor.

Anyway I await the review with baited breath. First impressions from reading comments is not particularly good. I'm personally a fan of all the bells and whistles graphically (as I have a computer that can run it) but cest la vie.

I'd go in the counter most games do support AA at least most games released in the past 2-3 years. Even the Sims 2 has AA come on people the SIMS 2!!! However it doesn't bother me ive lived with SH3 gfx SH4 will be an improvement hopefully one that i'll like.

[Capt.LoneRanger]

AA is not depending on the game, it is depending on the GFX-card. If the game uses Post-Effects, pre 8xxx nVidias are not capable of doing rendering these effects and AA at the same time.


The only software/gameside-thing to change this, is to disable the post-effects, which would lower the overall graphical experience. Your choice, but it cannot be "forced" in a game, nor is it "supported" by a game. There are merely games, where you can set FSAA or AF from ingame, to make that option more easily accessable.

[Sailor Steve]

That's soon enough for me ... :lol:
I'll second that emotion. Waiting patiently...

By the way, what's with all the AA posts on this thread? Aren't two of your very own enough?:dead:

[nhall70]

To be honest, what I would like to know most is if you have been able to force FSAA. If such a basic modern requirement isn't supported then the sim is fundamentally broken and, at least IMHO, not worth buying.

In some gloom,

RD. A lot of games don't support AA and there generally technical reasons for this which prevent it ;) I'm not sure what kind of monitors you lot are running this on, and I don't want to drag the thread offtopic, but anti-aliasing is not a big deal at all with the resolution cranked up on a decent monitor.

Anyway I await the review with baited breath. First impressions from reading comments is not particularly good. I'm personally a fan of all the bells and whistles graphically (as I have a computer that can run it) but cest la vie.

I'd go in the counter most games do support AA at least most games released in the past 2-3 years. Even the Sims 2 has AA come on people the SIMS 2!!! However it doesn't bother me ive lived with SH3 gfx SH4 will be an improvement hopefully one that i'll like.

Yes, virtually all current games support AA...it's a common, basic, fundamental thing these days. Ubisoft is just about the only game publisher on earth that doesn't understand this.

Hell, even SH3 supported AA, but not SH4. If that's not a step backwards, I don't know what is!

[hyperion2206]

May I ask you AA fetishists one question?! Why do you guys have to turn every single thread regardless of its original topic into a debate if SH4 supports AA? That really sucks!:nope:

[Immacolata]

8000m visibility? I want to know. Do we still have myopic skippers that cant look further than down their own nosetip?

[RocketDog]

May I ask you AA fetishists one question?! Why do you guys have to turn every single thread regardless of its original topic into a debate if SH4 supports AA? That really sucks!:nope:

Because it's a fundamental requirement for visual fidelity in a modern simulation. If it supports FSAA, I will buy it. If it doesn't, I may save my money. What I don't want to do is buy it and find I can't force FSAA.

For info, I have the following sims on my PC at home:

IL-2 in all its incarnations
SH3
Lock On and Lock On Flaming Cliffs
FS2004 and various Wings of Power add-ons
Condor
BOB WOVII

All of these support FSAA and are better for it. I have no idea why the SH4 devs decided to cripple their game on release.

RD.

[Gizzmoe]

Because it's a fundamental requirement for visual fidelity in a modern simulation.

But this thread is not about anti-aliasing, it´s about the upcoming review of SH4, yet there are several posts of people complaining about the lack of AA!

[hyperion2206]

Because it's a fundamental requirement for visual fidelity in a modern simulation.
But this thread is not about anti-aliasing, it´s about the upcoming review of SH4, yet there are several posts of people complaining about the lack of AA!

Thank you Gizzmoe, that's exactly what I'm meaning! I don't mind if people discuss AA or FSAA in a special thread but I hate it when they start spamming every single thread.
That's enought OT ranting for now.;)

[RocketDog]

The reason it's coming up here is because some people (well, me at least) would like a final, definitive answer as to whether FSAA really is forced off all the time or whether it can be forced through the driver. I hope this will be settled once and for all by the subsim review. For me, this may well determine whether I go into town on Friday lunchtime and buy it or not. I don't care how good the game play is if every single wire, rope and sharp edge in every single frame shimmers and kills the immersion. Obviously, other people are less fussed.

Cheers,

RD.

[Schultzy]

Thanks for the update Neal. Looking forward to seeing what you think of her.

[Immacolata]

The reason it's coming up here is because some people (well, me at least) would like a final, definitive answer as to whether FSAA really is forced off all the time or whether it can be forced through the driver. I hope this will be settled once and for all by the subsim review. For me, this may well determine whether I go into town on Friday lunchtime and buy it or not. I don't care how good the game play is if every single wire, rope and sharp edge in every single frame shimmers and kills the immersion. Obviously, other people are less fussed.

Cheers,

RD.

Its pretty clear that you can't turn on FSAA from numerous posts about it now. Now get over it. Move along.

[Onkel Neal]

Because it's a fundamental requirement for visual fidelity in a modern simulation.
But this thread is not about anti-aliasing, it´s about the upcoming review of SH4, yet there are several posts of people complaining about the lack of AA!
Agreed! I'm not a hardcore OT cop but we have too many people adding AA posts to every thread. Put them here (http://207.44.214.111/subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=106588), so we can retain a margin of sanity :)

[XanderF]

AA is not depending on the game, it is depending on the GFX-card. If the game uses Post-Effects, pre 8xxx nVidias are not capable of doing rendering these effects and AA at the same time.

The only software/gameside-thing to change this, is to disable the post-effects, which would lower the overall graphical experience. Your choice, but it cannot be "forced" in a game, nor is it "supported" by a game. There are merely games, where you can set FSAA or AF from ingame, to make that option more easily accessable.

That's...kinda true...sorta. But misleading. And also untrue.

It's not HDR that's the problem (and there are several flavors of that, too), or the video card generation. Some things are possible, and some are just...well, not.

HDR is 'high dynamic range' - in increases the 'bit depth' of displayed colors. There are a few variants of that - the "Half-Life 2" games (Episode 1 and later) use integer-based HDR. This isn't "true" HDR, but it has the advantage of being able to be run by just about any video card.

'Oblivion' is an example of a game that uses 'true' floating-point HDR. This is a LOT more complicated - involves rendering to a floating-point render target - and requires specialized hardware to anti-alias properly. ATI's X1K-series cards can anti-alias FP16 HDR just fine, as can nVidia's 8-series.

The (apparent) problem with Sh4, and the problem with 'the other Ubi titles' (Ghost Recon 2, Rainbow Six Vegas, etc), is that they not only use FP16 HDR, but then perform post-processing shader effects on the scene after final rendering. This is the stage that FSAA *should* be taking place in, but it can't, because shader routines are run against the image to generate final output that completely bypass the multisample blending needed for AA to work.

(As to ATI's "other" AA modes - 'temporal' is somewhat interesting. ATI's cards have a programmable FSAA sample collector to generate the final output - vs nVidia's cards with a fixed sample pattern. Due to the programmable nature of this, ATI can switch sample patterns back and forth between frames. IE., if you are playing at 60 frames per second, and have 4x AA with Temporal AA enabled, the video card will take 30 frames at one sample pattern and 30 frames at a different sample pattern...alternating them back and forth. The result - to the human eye - APPEARS to be an 8x sample pattern. Adaptive AA is much more complicated to explain - it basically allows anti-aliasing of 'transparent' alpha textures...like the links in chain-link fences in most shooters, for example.)

If you are not familiar with AA, here are a few links with pics of the differences:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=85157&highlight=aliasing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:FSAA.jpg

http://techreport.com/reviews/2006q4/geforce-8800/index.x?pg=8

So, basically, the 'plus' of the GeForce 8-series and Radeon X1K-series (and later) is that they can anti-alias floating point render targets. No other cards can do that.

Unfortunately, for Sh4 (and other titles), even THAT isn't enough - they continue to do more post-processing that still breaks AA.

Sad thing? Those same effects are done on the XBox360 and PS3 on a regular basis - and certainly CAN be done on the PC, but aren't. Why? Well, the XBox360 and PS3 REQUIRE game devs to provide FSAA in all titles. The PC 'platform' doesn't. So, what are the devs to do? Well, clearly, get lazy and aim for the lowest common denominator.

THAT is what pisses me off the most. Same thing that irks me with Rainbow 6 and Ghost Recon 2. They are ALL FSAA'd on the consoles, but NONE on the PC. For no technical reason at all, it's just because the consoles REQUIRE it and the PCs don't, and the devs are interested in delivering as little as possible to get paid. It's just sad!

Because it's a fundamental requirement for visual fidelity in a modern simulation.
But this thread is not about anti-aliasing, it´s about the upcoming review of SH4, yet there are several posts of people complaining about the lack of AA!
Agreed! I'm not a hardcore OT cop but we have too many people adding AA posts to every thread. Put them here (http://207.44.214.111/subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=106588), so we can retain a margin of sanity :)

To be fair, I understand why you'd want that, but you really SHOULD sticky a 'locked' thread with a full, LEGIT explanation.

Merging all those threads together just provides a BUCKET of misinformation - there were posters going on for dozens of posts of how AA would 'just work' and that the people having problems 'just didn't know how to do it'. And, of course, reams of posts about how FSAA 'didn't really matter' (oh, yeah? Then why do ALL THREE of the major consoles out today REQUIRE IT with EVERY TITLE? "Not a big deal" my ass!). And people posting videos (resized to a much lower res) claiming that "FSAA looks like it is working just fine", etc.

The signal-to-noise ratio in that thread has gone WAY off the deep end, and the useful (and true) information is largely lost.

[McBeck]

Lest get BACK on topic please.

[toby66]

Yeah, back on topic. I'm eagerly waiting for the review.

Toby
(just surfaced from a long time reading-only dive :D)

[Payoff]

:zzz:

[Barkhorn1x]

Yeah, back on topic. I'm eagerly waiting for the review.

Toby
(just surfaced from a long time reading-only dive :D)

Word! :smug:

(Oh cool, I'm "Stinking drunk in Trinidad"!)

[bookworm_020]

Waiting for the review:yep: Hope the game lives up to the hype. Will be getting mine tomorrow!

[mw2000]

Not buying until I have read Neals review :hmm: . I did this when he posted the SH3 review and I bought two copies.

[Snakeeyes]

Neal is one fair dude. He knows his stuff and is honest. It's great that you give it 3 weeks!

[Skweetis]

So hows the review coming Neal? Or is it hard to type while being DC'd deep in the pacific? :smug:

[Charlie901]

Wasn't the review supposed to be up by 3/20?

[Onkel Neal]

Wasn't the review supposed to be up by 3/20?

Yes it was, but I did not get the review copy when it went gold, as I did with SH2 and SH3. I received it last week. To really understand a simulation and write a fair and accurate review, I take about three weeks, or ~ 100 hours of playing time, including multiplayer.

Alas

[stabiz]

I think that is good to know.

[Skweetis]

Bah. I say lynch him. Everybody, grab your pitchforks and torches.... To TEXAS!!!!

:smug:

Seriously though, I know it will be worth the wait!

[ijozic]

To really understand a simulation and write a fair and accurate review, I take about three weeks, or ~ 100 hours of playing time, including multiplayer.


That's SO old-shool. :)

[kiwi_2005]

Hmm will SHIV get 100% score:hmm:

[Immacolata]

Well I thought 100% score for SH3 smacked a bit too friendly. But if the trend continues, and accounting for inflation, about 104% :rotfl:

[simsurfer]

Wasn't the review supposed to be up by 3/20?
Yes it was, but I did not get the review copy when it went gold, as I did with SH2 and SH3. I received it last week. To really understand a simulation and write a fair and accurate review, I take about three weeks, or ~ 100 hours of playing time, including multiplayer.

Alas

That really stinks Neal, the fact that they didnt give you a copy until recently, I dont think I could do what you do for I would be yelling "where is MY Copy Dammit"!!

In three weeks everybody here except for the bildge rats in three weeks will by then will have had there game, so I suppose your writing the review for them, as we will already be playing. I think though it will be kind of fun to see what you think about it vs our thoughts by then.

Reminds me of www.dpreview.com when the Canon EOS 1D mkII N came out, by the time Phil got around to the review every working pro had theres already and reading the review no longer seemed needed :-)

[DMarkwick]

Can I take it that the people who bleat on (and on and on...) endlessley about AA are not the same people who insist on immersion being the prime property? :)

AA is a graphic enhancement for Christ's sake, not a "fundamental requirement for modern games". I call that "gameplay". :)

[ReallyDedPoet]

To really understand a simulation and write a fair and accurate review, I take about three weeks, or ~ 100 hours of playing time, including multiplayer.

Alas

Makes sense:yep: Be sure to share more of your thoughts.

[BH]

Did I miss Neals review?