night attacks on convoys

[supposedtobeworking]

Ok I'm in Oct 1941 and am about to engage a convoy and it is about 1AM local time. Pitch black out using 16km visibility--weather is clear. I'm using GWX 1.02 and am in a VIIC. Now...

I've spotted a whale factory ship which I am going after -- it looks like it is near the aft end of the convoy. I am still not real sure how sensetive the AI visuals are, so would I get my clock cleaned if I stayed on the surface and went inside the convoy in between the lanes (roughly 7-800mtrs from a ship on either side). Would I get spotted and reported, and then hunted by AI DDs? Or should I go to Peri Depth and lurk to the Whale ship that way risking audio sonar detection?

In short, should I attempt a surface night attack in a convoy or not? was this done historically. The ship is not on an outside column but maybe 1 or 2 columns in--it is a large convoy... My inclination is to remain at Periscope depth and make an approach submerged even though it is dark...but I was wondering about a surface attack...

[Zero Niner]

I've not had musch experience in convoy attacks, but I think as far as GWX is concerned it'd be difficult for you to penetrate w/o being spotted.
What I do is to lie in wait ahead of the convoy, at periscope depth, ahead slow & silent running. You'll have to time yor approach such that the escorts come no nearer than say 2km to be safe. Pick your targets, launch your tubes then get out to relaod & recharge before you try again.

[supposedtobeworking]

how do you time your approach? I have the nomograph and the time sheets in the upper corner in the map screen. I assume you use those? I have tried to do a little timing, but it is always just a guesstimating type of planning and pretty sloppy. Do you have a more methodical procedure for timing an approach like this? I have not got the knack of mapping out the escorts search patterns yet--that would probably help--it seems like it would be a very tedious process of calculations to plan such a timed approach--is your method of doing such very complicated?

[Mush Martin]

when doing initial positioning infront of the convoy what I do
is I draw a line projecting from just aft of the convoy to well
outside the engagement area. the line runs directly through
the convoy centre and along the convoys track

I generally measure distance from centrline to outside row of ships
I will then either draw a perpendicular line off of the centreline
to mark where the nearest edge of the convoy will pass.
I do not mark on the escorts they will outride somewhere near 700
yds outside the line marking the outer edge of convoy.

depending on where in the convoy the target is located I position to
be within 1500 to 2000 yds of where that ship will pass in front of me
in relation to the centre line. observations will indicate roughly what sort of
escorts are going to be in the vicinity at firing point

you should actually be a about 1000 yds from the escort as he passes
(assuming your target in 2nd or 3rd row) and about 1500 to 2000
yds from the target ship)

Where possible complete all maneuvers prior to convoy moving to
within four thousand metres of the engagement zone.
so as you can lie in wait at silent running all stop to be safe.
it is also a good idea assuming the situation allows it to
position your ship in such a way that you are already
pointed towards your evasion course out of the area
prior to firing.

for me I usually attack from 2 km off the track -135 degrees off the
convoy course and will shoot at longer ranges than recommended by
the book, that extra 500 yds can make a difference in your egress
of the area. optionally the perpendicular shot has the advantage
that after shooting you are already passing behind the convoy
and if your course is roughly the reverse course of the convoy
you gain distance from the surface group rapidly. the hit will
detach the escorts from the convoy but you should be 2 or 3 minutes
down the evasion road by the time that happens.

it isnt perfect nor is it well described but it should give you the
idea project the convoy course measure the convoy layout the
attack of choice during the planning phase maneuver to postion
Wait, wait some more fire torps begin evasion silently and go.
and then is when the hits should happen.

[supposedtobeworking]

ok cool thanks mush martin that is good info. I am still confused on how to time actions though. Your description gave me a good idea of distances and angles, but how does one go about landing in the right spot at the right time, so to speak? that is the question that still evades me and it seems that other users are able to time this out--im just curious how some go about it.

[Brag]

You can't really time except approximately, if you have the speed of the convoy you can project the position of the target at a certain time and be in good firing position to hit it.

[Mush Martin]

ok cool thanks mush martin that is good info. I am still confused on how to time actions though. Your description gave me a good idea of distances and angles, but how does one go about landing in the right spot at the right time, so to speak? that is the question that still evades me and it seems that other users are able to time this out--im just curious how some go about it.

to paraphrase sun tzu he who awaits his enemy at ease will be victorious

get into position ahead of the convoy and wait for them to come to you.
as they come into firing range the timing takes care of itself. however
you may want your first target or first two to go by your firing point
a little before opening fire. whether a perpendiclar or obtuse attack.

a little more on timing in attacks though. In order to maximize
the effect of surprise, it is a good idea when shooting mulitple
targets to shoot them in sequence all at once from furthest
away to nearest in that order. the idea being after a bit of
practice to figure out timing and ranges to have all your torpedos
strike as close to simultaneously as possible. by this method
target ships have less possiblility of evasion if all are hit simultaneously
and escorts cant close you while your trying still to shoot your
last three fish. by this method you should already be started your
evasion maneuvers prior to the escort or targets being aware
of your presence.

Good Hunting:up:

MM

MM

[E.Hartmann]

I get 3-4 tracks on the convoy first. I then run ahead and got to 25M and set silent. Once convoy is on me, I will wait for the noise to surround me and for sonar to give me as many targets as possible. I then pop a scope shot and hit one the furtherst away but with a good 90deg AOB. After teh torp is about half way there, I then start picking my next four targets. I will nail 5 boats with one torp each then go silent and deep. Once I'm down to under about 100m or more of depth, I got to standard and move away. The first torp will impact and draw the escorts there and allow me to head opposite and escape. I then run out of range and reload all torps and do it again. What happens is the escort will stay back with the wounded stragglers and I can then take on the main convoy unopposed or if the escorts stay with the main group, I can circle back around and pick off the stragglers.

This is easy prior to mid '41 but now the boats have guns on them as well and its tough to do anything but torp shots but still going strong on patrol 16 now.....

[supposedtobeworking]

e hartmann that is very interesting, but I am still trying to imagine playing that out in my head and I don't see how you can hit five boats. Are you using GWX? I have to be honest, in my convoy attacks i get away with one ship sunk and another wounded tops. I've never gotten away hitting more than 2 ships. Do you use manual TDC? I use manual only--and usually I try to get within 1000m or less for the shot to gaurantee hits. I also cannot stand to make a hit and then wait hours and hours for the ship to go down -- esp. if I have to leave the area and then dont even get credit for the kill while I'm out of range. So I always make sure the target is going down on the first attack run. As for hitting multiples, I have not experimented with shots other than 90AOB since its the safest. Not to mention you have to take into consideration the gyro angle for accuracy, it must take a while to get the hang of your method i would think.

What does your target layout look like? I would imagine that you hit ships which are generally in front of you close to 90AOB just a varying distances in different columns? like this/



What is the maximum range you tend to fire on ships in the lanes and what is the max gyro angle and AOB you'll fire at?

[Gildor]

A five shot approach can work. Here is how I do it:

Diagram (crude but works):
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/7310/5shotdi8.jpg

- The columns are about 700-800m apart.
- Evade lead escort and approach as shown, silent and slow
- Fire as shown, a electic3 moves about 900m a min so time as shown (aprox)
- Most times you get the hits all within 10-15 sec, or at least before any significant change in cousre for zig-zag when your first torp goes boom.
- immediately after firing the last stern shot, turn into column and dive at half ahead(4knots). Once a torp hits, use Captains discretion to escape but because you are under column the escorts will have to evade, giving you time to get deep.

I will prob add more as I remember, (it's late)

This works most of the time. It takes patience, timing and b*lls of steel.


-

[supposedtobeworking]

LOL! ha thats great--thanks for the diagram.. couple questions:

--what speed settings do you set your torpedoes to? I did read something about electric so you can only set those to slow right?

--when you say to fire >10 sec that means after 10 secs right? I assume you mean fire at about ten secs but not before...

--doesnt the gyro angle on the left most target off of your port bow read a little high? do you usually get a hit? are you using manual TDC for this??

finally, I assume that these just wound the ships as mentioned before, so you have to go back and finish em off right? dont tell me you get critical hits every time!!

thanks for the advice...like i said I just fire off all fish at the target in front of me--I hate waiting for them to go down, so I finish em off right then and there, but I only get away with one or two sinkings per attack

as far as timing goes--how the hell do you keep your scope from getting knocked off by the time the merchant ship runs over you after you've fired your shots--how do you time this--by guesstimating or do you make calculations? thx agin

[GoldenRivet]

I have been inside the lanes before, even with escorts about...but getting there wasnt easy.

I was on the surface at about 1 knot speed low in the water with just the watch tower exposed and it was a dark moonless night. i lined up a shot on 4 of the largest ships i could find close to me with the bow tubes and let loose and crash dove down to about 150 meters and snuck away. all the shots hit their targets but nothing sunk... shadowed the convoy until the next evening when i did the exact same thing on the ships that showed signs of damage.

walked away with 2 large tankers and 2 pyro ammunition ships and 1 tramp steamer i hit with a stern shot on the second night.

it was 1942... fired them off and went deep and silent, never heard a single ping, and i dont think anyone really ever knew i was inside the lanes!

[supposedtobeworking]

wow thats rediculous--do you use manual TDC??! I can't imagine getting in that position two times in a row and taking out the same ships...yer my hero..

[Gildor]

The diagram is not to scale so it looks a bit off.

I use weapon officer assist because I beleive the Captain would not do Everything(tm) :lol:

When it says "> 10 sec" it is as you guessed. dont fire before 10 sec, etc.

I'm not saying this works everytime, but it has good results for me most of the time. I usually have, I would guess, 96 percent accuracy. The urge to fire and get the heck out of there is very high. Thats why I said be patient. They dont know you are there until either the first torp hits or your periscope is spotted.

Timing the shots as i do, means they all hit within 10 - 15 sec of each other, but sometime it might be off.

From what I recall, the torps move at 30knots max 5kms (t3 electric). I figure they move at about 850-900m a min aprox.

Important: Most of the time if you aim for the first third of a ship, they will sink with one shot. It takes a while but they do sink. Dont get me wrong, some do make an escape but i can chase them down later if i am so inclined. Aim for the first mast.

[Gildor]

LOL! ha thats great--thanks for the diagram.. couple questions:

--what speed settings do you set your torpedoes to? I did read something about electric so you can only set those to slow right?

--when you say to fire >10 sec that means after 10 secs right? I assume you mean fire at about ten secs but not before...

--doesnt the gyro angle on the left most target off of your port bow read a little high? do you usually get a hit? are you using manual TDC for this??

finally, I assume that these just wound the ships as mentioned before, so you have to go back and finish em off right? dont tell me you get critical hits every time!!

thanks for the advice...like i said I just fire off all fish at the target in front of me--I hate waiting for them to go down, so I finish em off right then and there, but I only get away with one or two sinkings per attack

as far as timing goes--how the hell do you keep your scope from getting knocked off by the time the merchant ship runs over you after you've fired your shots--how do you time this--by guesstimating or do you make calculations? thx agin
The gyro angel for shot 4 is high and if i do get a miss it is usually that target.

Timing. This is what makes a Captain an artist.

Find a convoy, determine the course and speed, spend days getting in front. I have had convoys suddenly change direction zig-zagging away, only to make me repeat approach. Sneak into position at silent and slow, sometimes getting within 1000m of lead DD. Turn towards targets, keeping an eye on the column barrelling down on you. All this done with periscope checks - not raised more than 30 sec at a time.

Get ready to fire at target 2, raise scope a bit, opene tube while raising. Line up on aprox target bearing, raise to surface, aim, shoot. swing to target 1, aim shoot. lower scope.

Wait 55 sec. Repeat for next two. Swing around for stern shot.

As soon as you fire, turn opposite course to targets and dive to 100. usually im still 300m or so from the column (close) thats barreling down on me.

Hear explosions. Manuver to escape. After you get away you should be on a course to follow them and pick of any wounded as needed.

[Zero Niner]

I think it's a matter of both skill and luck. Skill of course is to remain undetected, but luck plays an enormous part, by being at the right place at the right time with the right weather conditions & right time of day - for me, a night attack is always preferred.

I got lucky my last patrol. I was in BF15 (somewhere S or SW of Ireland) heading NNW when I received an intel report of a large convoy heading ENE, and near enough that I was in a good intercept position. The time was about 2030 hrs, and the weather was stormy but I managed to get ahead of the convoy, submerge and lie in wait.
Hydrophones soon picked up sounds of the approaching convoy. I angled my boat roughly perpendicular to the convoy's course and lay in wait.


I soon picked out the approaching ships - a V&W class DD was leading followed by about 5 columns of juicy targets. I was fortunate that I was placed just between the centre column, which held all the big targets, and the 2nd left column. I saw 2 large tankers, a whaling ship, a large capital ship and approaching my stern was a large merchant.

To cut a long story short, I made mince meat of all the large ships I could spot. I started off by torpedoing the DD, and when a Flower class corvette cam to investigate I sank it too. The 3rd escort never even came close. I didn't even have to go silent running so I could reload as I took out the ships one by one. In all I sank seven ships in the convoy before bugging out.

What helped? I think luck played a large part. The time of day (it was a night attack), plus the storm helped mask me by degrading the enemy's ability to detect me. Lying in wait at the right spot, so that I had only to move ahead slow to get into optimal firing position. Luck also played a part in not having any duds or prematures!

I think the only part skill played, and it's really not very difficult, is to plot the intercept well enough ahead of the projected convoy so that I can lie in wait with time to spare. But it's not as easy as it sounds; earlier in the patrol I had attacked another convoy, sinking 3 ships, then withdrew to reload. But I couldn't re-establish contact, and I suspect the convoy changed course pretty soon after I withdrew to reload.