Did the pacific war subs really do allot??

[fastfed]

I keep reading on this site ,mixed reviews, that the US subs during ww2 really didn't do much, I know the german U-boats had a bigger roll than the US subs really did, but I read somewhere on the internet mission by mission from GATO class subs, and it seems like they did allot.

So whats the story behind all of this?

[Barkhorn1x]

I keep reading on this site ,mixed reviews, that the US subs during ww2 really didn't do much,...

You trolling or what!?!? :shifty:

Seriously, I am always amazed by the U-Boat centric view of so many when it comes to submarine activirty in WWII.

Here is a decent link that provides a concise overview:

http://www.valoratsea.com/subwar.htm

The overall impact that the United States Navy's submarine forces had on the outcome of the war in the Pacific is often understated. The modernization of the world's navies during the WW II era saw an incredible shift from the dependence upon the battleship towards the aircraft carrier and its' support groups. The recognition and glory which has been showered upon this formidable arm of the US Navy is, without question, certainly warranted and deserved. But to study the Pacific theater without looking closely at the battle figures compiled by the Silent Service would be a grave injustice to any student of the war and to the valiant men who unselfishly gave of themselves. Comprising less then 1.6% of all US Naval personnel in the Pacific, yet accounting for more then half of all enemy shipping sunk, the US submarine fleets were well represented in the Allied effort for achieving victory. Historians have stated that a major factor contributing to Japan's surrender was this island nation's recognition of the fact that she was unable to sustain the war effort due to the severe shortages of raw materials and basic essentials. By eliminating their ability to import vital goods and supplies, American submarines were able to do to Japan what Hitler's U-Boat force came close to doing to England.


Bottom line = the Kreigsmarine never succeded strangling England and had lost the war at sea by June of '43. The US navy sub force did strangle Japan - and could have done it much sooner if not for bad torpedoes and the over-emphasis on supporting the surface force and hunting capital ships.

[dean_acheson]

I would say that this post comes close to trolling. :lol:

Now I don't want to start a flame war, but I would argue... well, maybe not argue, but postulate, that the U.S. fleet boats did more than the German boats did.

The U.S. boats cleared the sea of Japan's merchant traffic, something the German boats failed to do (clear the seas of Allied merchant traffic.) Now, there are alot of reasons for this, largely building capacity of the allies, and the efforts they pumped into ASW.

Now Japan worked on their ASW tech. a great deal, but they did not seem to approach the problem of killing subs like the U.S. did. It almost seems like Japan took a mystical approach to fighting that war. Before folks go flaming me, read Bearugard's Fire in the Sky about the way the IJN and the IJA approached the air war, or Shattered Sword on the battle of Midway. Then read about the U.S. approach in Robert Gannon's Hellions of the Deep. The U.S. approached the war in a very systematic way after 1942ish.

The USN didn't go around spending money and resources like the Germans did on making quantum leaps in technology. So, while the US didn't end up with anything quite as cool at a Type XXI, they did come up with a PPI scope, which is cool as all get out, and alot more useful, when the XXI and the Walthers didn't really help the war effort out at all, esp. given the time and money pumped into them.

The German U-Boat effort was relentlessly pounded into the ground, esp. after May 1943. The U.S. effort was just getting into stride at that time.

But, as the History Channel specials on the fleet boats points out, no other single weapon did more to being the Japanese war effort to a halt. (You have to remember, Japan doesn't produce my domestic oil or steel....)

[Subnuts]

In the second world war, American subs used to park off the coast of Japan and hold huge BBQs on the deck. They'd shoot off fireworks and get stuffed on ice cream. Then they'd invite the Japanese over at night and get really drunk on Sake, and if there were any trouble they'd torpedo the occassional passing ship. Rather counterproductive to the war, if you ask me.

[dean_acheson]

that and paint their boats pink.

and take nurses for rides.

[Guido]

it sure is a great thread, with some well informed posts...........

however, everyone knows that playing as a nazi (the ultimate bad guyz) really does appeal somewhat more than an american personage!


ja?:up:

no disrespect et all my fellow americans :)

[fastfed]

I am not trolling, I have been here a while, lurking and now just coming out since the game is coming soon..

I forgot about this game kinda ( just forgot the release date ) and just realized its comin soon :)

I always used to B%TCH about SH2 and SH3 because I hated playing as a german :)

but people used to always say that the American Campaign was useless compared to the German one, pacific war was boring, nothing was really done there, all that stuff..

I am just excited to play as an AMERICAN :)

[mookiemookie]

but people used to always say that the American Campaign was useless compared to the German one, pacific war was boring, nothing was really done there, all that stuff..


Those people, to put it bluntly, are idiots.

[Subnuts]

but people used to always say that the American Campaign was useless compared to the German one, pacific war was boring, nothing was really done there, all that stuff..

Well, the German campaign probably holds more interest for nihilists. :smug:

[dean_acheson]

it sure is a great thread, with some well informed posts...........

however, everyone knows that playing as a nazi (the ultimate bad guyz) really does appeal somewhat more than an american personage!


ja?:up:

no disrespect et all my fellow americans :)

It seems that you have two points/issues/statement. I have two responses.

1. Um, not really. not at all to be honest.

2. Taken.:huh:

[CCIP]

You know, leading up to SHIV release - as with SHIII - I started doing some research.

All I can say is, boy do these people who think of the American campaign as boring have it wrong :huh:

I'll be honest, as much as I like the Atlantic athmosphere, tossing all bias aside - the Pacific campaign is already appealing to me a lot more. The Atlantic campaign is a clash of titans - grim wolfpacks vs. huge convoys; a lot of intensity, but ultimately it all comes down to U-boat vs. everyone. The Pacific campaign is more of a combined operation - subs are part of a bigger winning strategy; they play roles in commerce war, in naval clashes, in supporting and being supported by friendly ships, troops and airmen. In the Atlantic, there's just a prolonged battle over the same shipping lanes; in the Pacific - the enemy advances, the enemy retreats; you hunt in a theater that's constatly changing its political and military geography. And if that's not enough, it's a bigger theater with a much more interesting physical geography.

And it's NOT too easy. I said it before I started reading, and I still say it - it's blasphemy to belittle the heroism and suffering of American submariners. They were fighting a war they won and should by all accounts have won, but the battles were theirs to fight - and could be lost just as easily. With all hands.

[Threadfin]

If this thread was indeed posted with honest intentions, then I recommend you pick up a copy of Blair's Silent Victory. Read it, and form your own conclusions.

but people used to always say that the American Campaign was useless compared to the German one, pacific war was boring, nothing was really done there, all that stuff.

People used to say this? You need a new source. Search up a few of the book threads here, pick up a few of the suggestions you find there and learn, if that's really what you're after.

[hyperion2206]

it sure is a great thread, with some well informed posts...........

however, everyone knows that playing as a nazi (the ultimate bad guyz) really does appeal somewhat more than an american personage!


ja?:up:

no disrespect et all my fellow americans :)


I'm not really happy that you use the word 'nazi' when talking about the U-Boot Waffe. I know that the U-Boats fought for Nazi Germany but most of those men weren't nazis at all. They didn't care about the ideology and so should we.:yep:

[joea]

it sure is a great thread, with some well informed posts...........

however, everyone knows that playing as a nazi (the ultimate bad guyz) really does appeal somewhat more than an american personage!


ja?:up:

no disrespect et all my fellow americans :)

I'm not really happy that you use the word 'nazi' when talking about the U-Boot Waffe. I know that the U-Boats fought for Nazi Germany but most of those men weren't nazis at all. They didn't care about the ideology and so should we.:yep:

Yup. :)

[Guido]

lighten up men..............really.:hmm:

mention the "nazi" word and someone has to make a point, some one else will post soon concerned about racsim no doubt, or the meek as they have had a hard time of it lately.

read the post again, try and note the tone = humorous?
same to the other grouchy guy (american?) at the other side of the bar.

to quote a famous sci fi film............
Here let me buy you a drink, this little ones not worth the trouble :up:

[Nikita]

From the venerable manual of Microprose's Silent Service II (translated to English):
"60% of Japanese merchant marine tonnage were sunk by US subs. From a total of 9,228,116 tons, 4,859,634 were sunk by US subs (limited to ships from 500 tons or more)"

What U-Boot tried without success in the Atlantic was achieved by US subs in the Pacific

[THE_MASK]

Why does everyone only speak of tonnage as an objective for SH4 ?

[flyingdane]

Why does everyone only speak of tonnage as an objective for SH4 ?

Don't know, But us subs did more than just sink ships.

[cdrsubron7]

I see varying opinions about the US sub in the Pacific. With the US Pacific Fleet at a standstill after Pearl Harbor, the submarine fleet carried the war to the Japanese while the surface was being rebuilt. They sank 54% of all Japanese ships in the Pacific during WWII. They lost 52 subs and 3200 officers and crewman killed during the war. One out of every five men were killed who served in the "Silent Service". If you think the US subs did not contribute, try reading Clay Blair's "Silent Victory". This book can show you how much of an impact the US Submarines had on Japanese shipping, not to mention all the special missions they performed through out the war. :yep:





cdrsubron7 :up:

[Torplexed]

This is what happens when Ubisoft puts out two Atlantic War subsims in a row. Pacific War? What Pacific War? :lol:

[flyingdane]

This is what happens when Ubisoft puts out two Atlantic War subsims in a row. Pacific War? What Pacific War? :lol:

Agreed this is stupid.:roll:

[XanderF]

but people used to always say that the American Campaign was useless compared to the German one, pacific war was boring, nothing was really done there, all that stuff..

Well, let me try and maybe find where the flaw is, here.

Are you SURE they were talking about JUST the comparative submarine services? If so, as others in this thread have posted, that's utter nonsense. The US submarine war was FAR more effective than the German one.

Now, if they were talking about the ENTIRE THEATER...you have a better argument. Yes, the Pacific War was dynamic, had a lot of naval action, etc. But what a lot of us subsimmers (or naval simmers) tend to forget is that a difficult naval struggle does not make up an entire war.

IE., sure, lots more naval action in the Pacific than European War. Yet, still, US expenditure on the two fronts was WILDLY different. The US Army Air Force ALONE lost nearly as many people as the entire US Navy did during the entire Pacific War. The US Army in Europe was TRIPLE that number.

[flyingdane]

And the topic of this post is the stupidist thing i have ever seen.

Get a grip on things people. :roll:

[stabiz]

And the topic of this post is the stupidist thing i have ever seen.

Get a grip on things people. :roll:

Whats your problem? Same spamming about idiots in several threads now. Give the man a break.

[nikimcbee]

If this thread was indeed posted with honest intentions, then I recommend you pick up a copy of Blair's Silent Victory. Read it, and form your own conclusions.

but people used to always say that the American Campaign was useless compared to the German one, pacific war was boring, nothing was really done there, all that stuff.

People used to say this? You need a new source. Search up a few of the book threads here, pick up a few of the suggestions you find there and learn, if that's really what you're after.


Direct HIT!!! Read Volume I of Blair's U-Boat book in addition. He makes it very clear why the Germans failed.

[Ark]

And the topic of this post is the stupidist thing i have ever seen.

Get a grip on things people. :roll:

I'm beginning to think it is past somebody's feeding time.

[cappy70]

Errhmm talking about trolls,,another post from the topic-starter " Did the pacific war subs really do allot" in the topic: "Release date changed":

Quote: "
can I ask why you all freak out about ordering and stuff..


Actually let me just ask you all WHY you even pre-order a game when every single gamestop or EBGAMES will have plenty in stock, I bet walmart will have many of them on the 21st.

I would understand a pre-order for a popular game like the release of world of warcraft expansion..
But this game???"" ,,,end quote.....

[cappy70]

sorry fastfed

[stabiz]

So little trolling at this site, that I almost take personal offense when I see it. Oh well, maybe the flying dane is just hungover or something.

On topic: I know next to nothing on this subject, so thanks for the book tips, girls! *off to amazon*

[Zero Niner]

To put some perspective into this topic:
According to JANAC, US subs:

- sunk a total of 5,586,400 tons of merchant & naval shipping in the Pacific. Out of this, over 5m tons were merchant shipping, 1,178 ships of which were over 500 tons displacement.

- total naval tonnage: 577,626 tons. 214 naval ships sunk, including 1 BB, 4 CVs, 4 CVEs, 3 CAs, 8 CLs, 43 DDs, 23 SSs.

Source: Pg 538, "Red Scorpion - The War Patrols of the USS Rasher" by Peter Sasgen, Pocket Star Books Feb 2005 ed

[Iron Budokan]

In the second world war, American subs used to park off the coast of Japan and hold huge BBQs on the deck. They'd shoot off fireworks and get stuffed on ice cream. Then they'd invite the Japanese over at night and get really drunk on Sake, and if there were any trouble they'd torpedo the occassional passing ship. Rather counterproductive to the war, if you ask me.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

[Joe S]

everyone has their own personal preferences, of course, and each is entitled to his or her own opinion. I enjoy the German campaign because it involves lots of convoy action, and surface action at night. You get a little bit of everything: action against unescorted merchants, which can be challenging depending on the situation, but very safe, and action against escorted convoys, hunter killer groups, and warship task forces. In the German campaign you get it all, "Happy Times" and very "unhappy times".

The US Pacific campaign is different. More action against individual ships and small convoys, very little action if any action against large convoys, but regular contacts with warship task forces. I dont know what the game will offer but these are the historical differences in the campaigns. I like them both and am looking forward to SHIV. just my opinion, FWIW. Joe S

[djdemo]

US subs during ww2 really didn't do much

Yeah, apart from sinking most of the Japanese merchant fleet, they didn't really do much.

:roll: