Worried about torpedo impact sensitivity

[oche]

It IS really a nightmare for me in SH3 when i fire all my torps just to see them bouncing and not detonating because of the angle of impact was below 90 degrees but i always avoid hitting targets under 45 degrees angle of impact since because of the problems the german torpedoes had. I'm really keeping my fingers crossed so this angle of impact issue won't show up on SH4 and hopefully i just only see the magnetic malfunction problem on MK 14 torpedoes because i like to play with 100% realistic settings.

[hyperion2206]

It IS really a nightmare for me in SH3 when i fire all my torps just to see them bouncing and not detonating because of the angle of impact was below 90 degrees but i always avoid hitting targets under 45 degrees angle of impact since because of the problems the german torpedoes had. I'm really keeping my fingers crossed so this angle of impact issue won't show up on SH4 and hopefully i just only see the magnetic malfunction problem on MK 14 torpedoes because i like to play with 100% realistic settings.

To my knowledge the American impact pistols very even more sensitive than the German ones.

[mookiemookie]

You're in for a very long war, then. American torpedoes were utter crap until 1943.



The Americans had tested their torpedoes off Rhode Island, where calm waters were nothing like the combat conditions America's boats would encounter. The heavy seas of the Pacific knocked out the guidance system, and the firing pin was inoperable much of the time, failing to detonate even if the Americans would get a hit. Complaints to the US Naval Command went unheeded. Some American commanders took to modifying their torpedoes themselves, despite orders prohibiting shipboard modifications.

[AirborneTD]

Welcome to the real world. That, along with deeper running torps as advertised and poor magnetic detonators caused many US skippers grief.

I hope it is modelled as accurately as possible--from the pathetic start to the gradual improvements.

Of course, it should be an option to turn off (for the less inclined-or warped as me)

[Barkhorn1x]

Don't know where you got the above quote from but the problem was not testing in calm waters as the quote suggests - it was a TOTAL lack of real world "war shot" testing!! :o

It sounds incredible today that such a "revolutionary" device as the magnetic pistol was just assumed to be engineered correctly. It was the 30's - money was tight - and the design bureau knew best. Then, early in the war, there was a major torpedo shortage coupled with a lack of effective tactics and some timid skippers. On top of that you had some of the commanders in the Pacific who were directly involved in the development of said magnetic pistol. All of this combined to create a situation where thorough testing was resisted.

[Sailor Steve]

There is a similar discussion going on on the 'SH4 Mods Workshop' board.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=104819

This might help some; I just didn't want to repeat a lot of the stuff that's already been posted there.

[Barkhorn1x]

To be clear here there were a number of issues with the Mark XIV torpedo - and they tended to mask each other. Here they are in the order they were addressed:

- The torps ran an average of 11 feet deeper than the depth setting indicated - this negated the whole purpose of magentic pistol - had it been working.

- The manufacture of the magnetic detonator was flawed in such a way as to ensure that they would rarely function as intended - they were finally deactivated - in the Central Pacific anyway in early '43

- The contact pistol firing pin stud guides were prone to disfiguration - often preventing the pins from setting off the warhead - the closer the shot was to the "perfect" 90 degree angle the worse the problem. Modified pins were designed and issued that would not deform the guides.

Here is a link:

http://www.historynet.com/magazines/world_war_2/3037866.html

[mookiemookie]

- The manufacture of the magnetic detonator was flawed in such a way as to ensure that they would rarely function as intended - they were finally deactivated - in the Central Pacific anyway in early '43


Agreed 100% with your assessment of multiple problems, however I wanted to add something. Magnetic pistols faced the same issues the Germans and Brits had....the magnetic field of a ship changes at different latitudes and conditions were different in the Pacific than they were at NTS Newport where the torps were tested. So it was a case of location. At least in part. I'm not completely off base :cool:

Good info on this topic here from Submarine Review magazine: http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/1592/ustorp2.htm#fn12

[Barkhorn1x]

- The manufacture of the magnetic detonator was flawed in such a way as to ensure that they would rarely function as intended - they were finally deactivated - in the Central Pacific anyway in early '43


Agreed 100% with your assessment of multiple problems, however I wanted to add something. Magnetic pistols faced the same issues the Germans and Brits had....the magnetic field of a ship changes at different latitudes and conditions were different in the Pacific than they were at NTS Newport where the torps were tested. So it was a case of location. At least in part. I'm not completely off base :cool:

Good info on this topic here from Submarine Review magazine: http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/1592/ustorp2.htm#fn12

Yes, you do have a good point there. And - as another deserved slap at the US Admirals - they knew that the Germans and the Brits withdrew the magnetic pistols due to issues but failed to question whether the same thing could happen to the US design. Good going! :roll:

[NefariousKoel]

It'll be a nice change of pace near the beginning. We'll have to prefer impact detonations from more of an angle and in salvos.

[tycho102]

I'm curious how the SH4 team has implemented the torpedo issues. Can we specify impact detonators only, as we could in SH3?

[Sailor Steve]

One of the real-life "problems" was that they didn't actually have a switch that let them turn the things on and off. They were built in, and a very few enterprising captains let their chiefs remove them. Once the initial problem was isolated, they all had to be removed from the boats and deactivated.

[FIREWALL]

You're in for a very long war, then. American torpedoes were utter crap until 1943.



The Americans had tested their torpedoes off Rhode Island, where calm waters were nothing like the combat conditions America's boats would encounter. The heavy seas of the Pacific knocked out the guidance system, and the firing pin was inoperable much of the time, failing to detonate even if the Americans would get a hit. Complaints to the US Naval Command went unheeded. Some American commanders took to modifying their torpedoes themselves, despite orders prohibiting shipboard modifications.

Hi MM It kinda makes you wonder who was the real enemy? " USNC ? ":o

[PAW]

Dunno if you guys have seen that long interview with the dev team yet but i swear in one of the shots i saw a torpedo hit the side of a ship at an angle of approx 5 -10 degrees and the torpedo detonated. I wasn't sure if it was a magnetic or impact but from GWX mod (and yes i know they were german torpedoes) if i tried using impact pistols at any angle below 30 degrees i could be sure that they'd just bounce.

I worried that the torpedoes might have too high a sensitivity.

But hey! if it's a magnetic goin under the ship, then mayb there's no need for worry :)

[Subnuts]

Dunno if you guys have seen that long interview with the dev team yet but i swear in one of the shots i saw a torpedo hit the side of a ship at an angle of approx 5 -10 degrees and the torpedo detonated. I wasn't sure if it was a magnetic or impact but from GWX mod (and yes i know they were german torpedoes) if i tried using impact pistols at any angle below 30 degrees i could be sure that they'd just bounce.


Didn't that video show the Battle of Samar? The Mk 14 should detonate 95% of the time at any angle by that time.

[Barkhorn1x]

Dunno if you guys have seen that long interview with the dev team yet but i swear in one of the shots i saw a torpedo hit the side of a ship at an angle of approx 5 -10 degrees and the torpedo detonated. I wasn't sure if it was a magnetic or impact but from GWX mod (and yes i know they were german torpedoes) if i tried using impact pistols at any angle below 30 degrees i could be sure that they'd just bounce.

Didn't that video show the Battle of Samar? The Mk 14 should detonate 95% of the time at any angle by that time.

Very true - and that was in October of '44 - more than a year after all issues were identified and fixed.

[fire-fox]

plus the magnetic exploders where all hand crafted for each individuel torpedo and there for parts could not be swopet easaly if thay where found to be folty, also the magnettic exploders where also "configured" for the magnetic feald at the torpedo factorys and thay where not alowed to "ajust" them any where from the factory's to theme hitting the targets, which wood have corsed a huge ammount of the prematures that where incounted after fireing.

[nattydread]

Well i used to plot, plot, plot and use my calculator to set up near perfect 90 deg hits in SH3. I liked to believe it helped in minimizing duds, but if you dont like doing all that in SH4 you may be in luck. US torps actually had problems initially if you did impact the torp at or near 90 degs...so those not so perfect impact angles should come in handy now.

[Snakeeyes]

One thing I'm going to miss jumping from SHIII to IV is the better German torpedoes.

I was wondering if anyone knew when during the war (or IF for that matter) American torpedoes went "wakeless." It' s a big advantage to not have a streaming wake of bubbles leading a destroyer back to me.

Torpedoes will be the number one hardest aspect for me to get used to switching to IV, especially now NOT trying to hit a target at 90 degrees. It's why I'm studying up on angle recognition now (see sepparate thread).

[Barkhorn1x]

Starting in mid-1943, the gradual introduction of the Mark XVIII electric torpedo into the theater brought substantial relief from the persistent torpedo shortages of the early war years. Although slower than the Mark XIV by 10 to 15 knots and somewhat limited in range, the Mark XVIII left no tell-tale wake that could give away a submarine's position, and it was much easier to manufacture in quantity. By the middle of 1944, when all their teething problems had been solved, Mark XVIII torpedoes constituted three-quarters of the standard patrol load-out.

From here:

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/cno/n87/usw/issue_12/rising.html

[Sailor Steve]

One thing I'm going to miss jumping from SHIII to IV is the better German torpedoes.

I was wondering if anyone knew when during the war (or IF for that matter) American torpedoes went "wakeless." It' s a big advantage to not have a streaming wake of bubbles leading a destroyer back to me.

Torpedoes will be the number one hardest aspect for me to get used to switching to IV, especially now NOT trying to hit a target at 90 degrees. It's why I'm studying up on angle recognition now (see sepparate thread).
Yes, the Americans did start experimenting with electric torpedoes in late 1943.

As for the 90 degree thing, one of the hardest points to recreate historically is the fact that US skippers WERE trained to shoot at exactly 90 degrees, and they had no idea that that was part of the problem. After Admiral Lockwood and then the Torpedo Test Facility ran tests by dropping them directly onto concrete test pads, they started designing a new impact pistol, but also advised sub skippers to not shoot at 90 degrees. The skippers had a real problem with that order, as it went against all their previous training.

So if you want to be realistic you'll have to force yourself to keep shooting at 90 degrees until the end of 1943. Good luck!:rotfl:

[OneTinSoldier]

This issue sounds like quite a quandary. :doh: I know I've been trained and ingrained by SHIII to fire as close to 90 degrees as I can when using impact pistols! :hmm:

[BellJack95]

I found an interesting article concerning US torpedoes. Below is a link to that article. The article recaps the different torpedoes and discusses all the problems that plagued the early commanders in the Pacific (1941 to late 1943). Of particular note I found two keys items:

1. The TDC device was designed for the Mark 14 and later model torpedoes and the TDC was only fitted in Fleet boats (the S class was too small for a TDC).

2. S boats only carried Mark 10 torpedoes (this type only used a contact exploder).

http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/torpedoes.html

So, perhaps when playing Silent Hunter 4 in a early campaign a person may have a easier time engaging and sinking the enemy by using the old S boats (using the old Mark 10 torpedo with a contact exploder), instead of a Fleet boat that has the TDC and defective Mark 14 torpedoes.