Cautious navigation while submerged

[Safe-Keeper]

With the addition of wrecks and rocks on the seabed, will we be forced to hover higher over the bottom to avoid crashing into something? In Silent Hunter III, the sea bed was completely bare, meaning that as long as there wasn't suddenly a hill in your way, you could hover a half metre over the "ground" if you wanted to.

But now that there'll be rocks and the occassional wreck, will this be too hazardous, especially at 100% realism with no external view? Would it be a better idea to not go too close to the sea-bed, to avoid running into a large boulder, the mast of a sunken ship, or some other obstruction?

[hyperion2206]

With the addition of wrecks and rocks on the seabed, will we be forced to hover higher over the bottom to avoid crashing into something? In Silent Hunter III, the sea bed was completely bare, meaning that as long as there wasn't suddenly a hill in your way, you could hover a half metre over the "ground" if you wanted to.

But now that there'll be rocks and the occassional wreck, will this be too hazardous, especially at 100% realism with no external view? Would it be a better idea to not go too close to the sea-bed, to avoid running into a large boulder, the mast of a sunken ship, or some other obstruction?

The question is if the game "allows" you to collide with rocks or wrecks. If it does I would stay at least 10m or 30ft above the seafloor.

[Aimbot]

That would be pretty damn cool.

[Drebbel]

I wonder how real WWII skippers would do this. I once heard some US subs had 1 outer torpedo door made out of very thick glass. They shoved in a sailor who yelled instructions to the skipper.

Now why hasn't the SH4 team simulated that

BOOOOOOO, I want a mod for that :D

[Safe-Keeper]

That'd actually be really, really cool:up:.

[Sulikate]

That would be a very nice feature indeed.:arrgh!:

[Phil]

I wonder how real WWII skippers would do this. I once heard some US subs had 1 outer torpedo door made out of very thick glass. They shoved in a sailor who yelled instructions to the skipper. :D


is that really true about the glass thing?

[Sgian Dubh]

I wonder how real WWII skippers would do this. I once heard some US subs had 1 outer torpedo door made out of very thick glass. They shoved in a sailor who yelled instructions to the skipper. :D

is that really true about the glass thing?


I dunno. But I am having warm thoughts about 'Bernard under glass'.:D

I can just see the mission report:

1 casualty, Seaman Bernard.

While in the observation tube and relaying questionable navigational information, there was a malfunction of the torpedo-tube inner door. In their heroic efforts to free Seaman Bernard, the Torpedo Chief accidentally uttered "Open the d*mn door now" which was unfortunately mis-understood by the torpedo crew as an order to open the OUTER door for the torpedo tube.

This set into motion an further sequence of unfortunate actions that resulted in Seaman Bernard being fired from the torpedo tube. It was extremely unfortunate that directly in front of the boat was the large reef that Seaman Bernard had failed to notice while providing navigational assistance.

An immediate ceremony was given, seeing the Seaman Bernard had become inextricably part of the seascape.

It is worthy of note that these unfortunate events resulted in the fortunate increase in the fortunes of this ship and crew which unfortunately we were not able to share with the unfortunate Seaman Bernard.

[Mylander]

I never heard of the glass thing. But I know this: Even in the clearest water, below about 150', you wouldn't be able to see jack. Not enough light. Even in shallow water, any turbulence or particulate matter in the water and forget it. "Hold it, skipper! There's a - " CRUUUNNNNCCHHHHH!!!!

I'm thinking that's a myth.

Mylander

[GSpector]

Hmm:hmm:, I would think, if they had windows then they would have to have lights to help with navigation and I was not aware there were light fixtures that could take that kind of pressure those subs took back then.

Besides, I think they used the sonar for something back then. I think it was to navigate (or see) under water :roll: .

As for the Hydrophones, I can't imagine that being useful for anything other then just to listen to the sounds under water :roll:

[Aimbot]

I've dove to 140 feet on a clear day and was able to see pretty well even without light. In clear pacific water you'd have decent vis to 200 feet, I'd guess.

[LC]

I've just been lurking on the SHIV forums so far, like what I see and I love SHIII but the wrecks on the bottom bring up an interesting new sort of game that I can see being around in the forums.

If they do put wrecks in game, I wonder if they will do historical wrecks too. Or just wrecks that you send down to the bottom. Anyone see historical wreck searches!?:lol:

Like I said would bring a fun little side game to the main game.

[Safe-Keeper]

If there's a sufficient number of different wrecks in the game, I don't see why it'd be impossible for someone to make a Historical Wrecks mod using the mission editor. You could even have them appear at the historically right time. Good idea, mate.

[Mylander]

I've dove to 140 feet on a clear day and was able to see pretty well even without light. In clear pacific water you'd have decent vis to 200 feet, I'd guess.
Been there, and deeper. (168' on SCUBA, in the Bahamas, but not by choice) You can see, but how far, and with what color resolution - none. it's all blue and grey and black down there unless you bring your own light - and WW II subs didn't have headlights. And you're talking about the clearest, calmest possible conditions with the most possible ambient light (clear day) - not something I'd want to count on as a sub skipper for U/W navigation. Cloudy day, current stirring up particulate matter, and forget it. Your vis would be very limited. Certainly not enough for Bernard to hang out in a torpedo tube shouting directions :rotfl: Which were then shouted into a voice tube, which were then relayed to the engine room telegraph, which were then, CRUUNNNCHHH!!! "We're taking damage sir!"

I don't claim to have all of the answers - I'm just not buying that scenario. How did they do it? Did they keep a certain minimum depth under keel based on their charts? periodic sonar soundings? I don't know. I'm a sailor, and as such, my depth under keel (5') is always on my mind. But I have GPS charts with spot depths, and a sonar depth sounder which is continually updated, and sounds an alarm if I get too shallow. These guys had none of that. Nor could they see what was around them...

Mylander

[fire-fox]

im not 100% but i think i read (dont remeber where) that thay did have depth sounding gear in the later parts of the war, and there war a "mine finding" forwered looking sonar set on some boats in 44'.

[Torcher]

The windowed torp tube does sound "fishy". Actually, it was probably installed the same time the screen doors were put in.:o

[GSpector]

Wouldn't it be better to just let the Frogmen out and swim in front of the Sub to feel their way ahead of the Sub in dark waters :rotfl: .

[Crow]

I've dove to 140 feet on a clear day and was able to see pretty well even without light. In clear pacific water you'd have decent vis to 200 feet, I'd guess.

correct , i 've been to Truk lagoon , micronesia , very sweet dive spot

dove the San Fransisco Maru there : deepest wrek if i recall about 200 feet

all you need is a lamp to revive the colour , but one can see all rest perfect

[Crow]

http://www.truk-lagoon-dive.com/Wrecks/San_Francisco_Maru.htm

see :know:

[FIREWALL]

I feel a new mod maybe LC & safe-keeper.:hmm: BTW how is Nor-Ops comeing along. Am looking forward to it to finish out SH-3GWX.

[Mylander]

The question is not whether one can see, I have spent a good bit of times at those depths, and yes, you can see. The question is whether one could see well enough through a glass outer torpedo door to shout instructions back to your comrades and safely and effectively conn a submarine underwater while doing this. I think the answer is a resounding "no". :know:

Here's the deal: I just E-mailed Leo A. "Doc" Carter who sailed on Archer-fish with my friend Paul Newlove, the Engineering O. He had a lot of input on A Gallant Lady the recent book about Archer-Fish and has been kind enought to answer some of my questions.

"Navigating underwater. All of the boats had chart lockers with charts for the various operating areas. I remember on one of the "S" class boats out of Panama in 1942 that all we had were local Carribean and Gulf of Mexico on board so when we went to the Pacific and operated out of Cristobal we had to borrow charts. Of course the Fleet Type boats had many charts of most of the Pacific. We found that many of them were out of date, had wrong information on depth, harbors, coast lines etc.
I think I would say that with the Gyro compass and magnetic compass, the charts, taking sun lines and star sights with the sextant, our dead reckoning going from point to point was probably in the "pure luck" status. Realize that WWII S and Fleet Types did not have the capacity to stay down for any length of time. Submerged we did have the bathothermograph and depth sounder. This was not used unless it was absolutely necessary because of the sound effect through the water of the "ping." The only times I remember anything about a minimun depth under the keel was near some islands (I believe the Bonins) because the charts we had were no good. And, no one really worried about the depth. I think we all had some sort of faith we would do the right thing and not run aground.
As you know sonar, at least in my era, was noisy and was used sparingly. I don't remember searching with the sonar during WWIi. After the war we did use it for a lot of things - searching, pinging off islands, ships, etc. Sonar pings always scared the hell out of me, especially when they were from a surface craft looking for us.
You asked about uncharted waters. On the ARCHER-FISH we did brush some sort of "peak" once off the Phillipine Island of Luzon. Our QM1 and the Navigator had the boat make several approaches from different directions to plot it on the chart. I think we gave it a name when we sent the info in to SubPac.
The sneeker and peeker routine was boooooring. Surface at night in the combat area to charge batteries and generally blow the stink away, dump garbage over the side, etc. On the WWII Balao Class boats we could do 9 knots on a half hour battery discharge rate. Very rarely did this happen. Usually when the sun came up we dove and cruised at 2 or 3 knots litsing with the JT (passive sonar) and sometimes staying at periscope depth searching or, later in the war, using the #2 scope for radar searches when something was spotted. The radar scope was a johnny come lately thing - probably late in 1944. I don't remember it earlier. Rarely did a boat do a sneak operation in a unfriendly harbor. It did happen though. It would take an agressive skipper to risk his ten million dollar submarine with 80 men to do this. Mush Morton, Dick O'Kane, Creed Burlingame and a few others fit this mold.
To expand just a little. From Sept. 49 to Sept. 53 I was on the CHIVO operating out of Key West. Wonderful duty, Cuba, Haiti, Jamaca, and many ports in the US were visited. In the Spring of 1951 we went to EB for a Guppy 2A conversion. When we came out of the yard we were streamlines for underwater, had new batteries, a snorkel, and some other refinements. We made a Med Cruise with the Fleet and on the way home 6 months later we were detached to run submerged using the snorkel as needed. We played some war games with the Fleet and when we surfaced close to Nassau in the Bahama Islands we had been submerged for eleven days. You guys in the nukie's will laugh at this but we thought we were something special for being underwater for 11 days! Nothing like the months long submergence of today's Submarine Sailor!
Hope this answered some of your questions. Feel free ask more.
Doc Carter"

So no glass torpedo tube outer doors.

"Mythbuster" Mylander

[GSpector]

To Crow:
Diving may sound fun but when I see a discription like this :o , I think I'll stay clear. I know my luck and it runs out a lot :D


The San Francisco Maru
This passenger/cargo ship sunk upright, fully loaded with cargo & thus is often called 'The Million Dollar Wreck'. Deck cargo includes both trucks & battle tanks. Hold cargo includes mines, torpedoes, bombs, artillery, anti-tank, & small arms munitions, aircraft engines & parts & oil/gasoline drums. Many artifacts remain in the bridge area.