Hydrophone hunting tutorial for GWX - D/L links here

[raduz]

ahoy, mates

there were many questions about the hydrophone use to intercept the enemy.

Since I play the SH3, I am fascintated by the hydrophone, too, and I used it frequently in the stock game. As you certainly know, till present day the RPM count was not possible in the GWX, due to the different sound files and lack of the chart.
So I decided to make a small "mod" allowing use of passive sonar in the GWX way we did it in the stock game.

Now, after one month of hard work, I humbly present to the community my hydrophone MERCHANT hunting tutorial including the original game propeller sound files, 4 training missions, GWX RPM chart and a detailed guide explaining some stuff that may interest you. I hope you will like it ;)

D/L here:
http://rapidshare.com/files/20422865/Hydrophone_hunting_tutorial.rar.html
or here:
http://files.filefront.com/Hydrophone_hunting_tutorilrar/;6901934;;/fileinfo.html

possible solution of crashing training missions (Kudos to Pisces :))

I installed your hydrophone mod and tried playing the missions that go with it. But 2 didn't work correctly and crashed SH3 GWX1.03 when loading the mission. Namely "Training Proppellers" and "Training range to target". Before the "not so long ago" message (or maybe for you the german equivalent sentance) appears the game crashes to desktop. The other work ok, as far as loading goes anyway.

When I open those 2 crashing misisons in the mission editor, and try to open the properties window for the Amnunition ships (Pyro??) the editor also crashes. All other ships do not crash. This suggest me that the issue lies in the mission itself with these ammo ships and not a bad mod or SH3/GWX install on my part.

Since you didn't mention in the readme what specific version of GWX your mod is based on I am not totally sure, but in the changelog section in the GWX 1.03 manual it says for changes done in GWX1.02 that the ammo ships got a different database number or something (became 100). In your mission files the ammo ships have number 102:

Proppeler mission opened with text editor:
Quote:
...
[Unit 3]
Name=Fleet Auxilary Ammunition#1
Class=AMM
Type=102
Origin=British
...

When I added another instance of the same ship-type to the mission (chosen from roster) and saved, I get in the text editor:

Quote:
...
[Unit 7]
Name=Fleet Auxilary Ammunition#1_MyTest
Class=AMM
Type=100
Origin=British
...

[robert4260]

Sorry I don't mean to be obtuse, but does it work in Gwx? If so I would love to try it. Thank you for all of your hard work. :yep:

[Iron Budokan]

I don't have time to look at this now, but I will next week. It sounds like it will be helpful. Thank you! :up:

[Shipwreck]

Thx bro Nice work :up:

SW

[Doolar]

I down loaded the file , but I'm not sure where to put it ... thanx

[Letum]

Whoo! :D
Now the only thing about GWX I didn't like and couldn't change has been fixed! :D

I can go back to counting revolutions again! :D

Thankyou!

[raduz]

It works in GWX. The only thing it changes are the propeller sound files. Replacing GWX propeller sounds by the stock propellers allows you to use the RPM chart for ID contacts and determinate its speed.

[High Voltage]

Nice!!! I'll give this a shot tomorrow...:up::up::up:

[raduz]

I down loaded the file , but I'm not sure where to put it ... thanx

see readme file

[Dantenoc]

excellent, will give it a try :up:

[Keelbuster]

OMG YES. I've always wanted to do this!

Quick question: in the rpm chart it says that rpm values are _almost_ always rounded down, with the exception of high values like 27.9 -> 28. I don't really know what it's referring to, but I wonder: why not round fairly on all numbers? Was this done to better fit the data you collected?

[raduz]

OMG YES. I've always wanted to do this!

Quick question: in the rpm chart it says that rpm values are _almost_ always rounded down, with the exception of high values like 27.9 -> 28. I don't really know what it's referring to, but I wonder: why not round fairly on all numbers? Was this done to better fit the data you collected?
Each turn count has always been measured for 60 seconds. Often, the number of revs per minute did not represent the whole number: there was a certain amount of complete revs + part of the last one.

Example: I was measuring the turn count for one minute. Let's say at 00:58, the RPM was 27, that means 27 complete revolutions. Two seconds before one minute has passed, 28th rev started. At 01:00 this 28th rev was still not complete. It was completed at 01:02. Now how was I supposed to record this situation? I had to round the RPM either down, either up, because it was something between 27 and 28. (this is just an example, the numbers are imagined).

If there was 27.5 revs in 60 seconds, I recorded 27. The only case when I rounded up was when it was like 27.9, that means ALMOST 28 complete revs. I hope you understand what I mean:roll:

[Keelbuster]

OMG YES. I've always wanted to do this!

Quick question: in the rpm chart it says that rpm values are _almost_ always rounded down, with the exception of high values like 27.9 -> 28. I don't really know what it's referring to, but I wonder: why not round fairly on all numbers? Was this done to better fit the data you collected?
Each turn count has always been measured for 60 seconds. Often, the number of revs per minute did not represent the whole number: there was a certain amount of complete revs + part of the last one.

Example: I was measuring the turn count for one minute. Let's say at 00:58, the RPM was 27, that means 27 complete revolutions. Two seconds before one minute has passed, 28th rev started. At 01:00 this 28th rev was still not complete. It was completed at 01:02. Now how was I supposed to record this situation? I had to round the RPM either down, either up, because it was something between 27 and 28. (this is just an example, the numbers are imagined).

If there was 27.5 revs in 60 seconds, I recorded 27. The only case when I rounded up was when it was like 27.9, that means ALMOST 28 complete revs. I hope you understand what I mean:roll:

Gotcha - precision on the estimate of the rev-count was low, and prevented fair rounding, so you tended to round down unless it was obviously very close to the next number?

Kb

P.S. Sorry to be a measuring stickler!

[raduz]

Gotcha - precision on the estimate of the rev-count was low, and prevented fair rounding, so you tended to round down unless it was obviously very close to the next number?

Kb

P.S. Sorry to be a measuring stickler!

Exactly!:D No need to be sorry. My English is sometimes not clear enough.

[Canovaro]

Thank you so much for the hard work, I have been searching for a new hydro table for GWX!

:up:

[raduz]

Thank you so much for the hard work, I have been searching for a new hydro table for GWX!

:up:

you are welcome:)

[Meridian]

Thanks very much for this.

On a similar subject, there used to be a mod where the Revolution table was a pull down chart similar to the ones in GWX. Can anyone point me to it or can any of the modders make one for the Hydro Room.

[raduz]

yes, this would be cool. and I also miss the stopwatch in the sonar room, I mean the stopwatch that could be started and stopped in the sonar room, not in periscope view...

[Platapus]

So I decided to make a small "mod" allowing use of passive sonar in the GWX way we did it in the stock game.

I will say it loud and I will say it proud: YOU ROCK!

Thank you so much for taking the time to not only code up the mod but to also take the time to write a nice manual with it. That spreadsheet is a winner.

Thanks again for supporting the SH3 community.

/salute

[raduz]

I will say it loud and I will say it proud: YOU ROCK!

Thank you so much for taking the time to not only code up the mod but to also take the time to write a nice manual with it. That spreadsheet is a winner.

Thanks again for supporting the SH3 community.

/salute

Thanks:up: Coding up the mod was not a big deal, in fact, I didnt code anything. I just used the propeller sounds from vanilla version. as for the manual, I would be grateful for reporting any errors you find in the RPM chart, because I was alone to do this and no one checked it.

[Canovaro]

one question though, I suppose the real speed of the ship is less in bad weather? I mean, the ship has to use more energy to go through rough sea right?
:-?

[raduz]

one question though, I suppose the real speed of the ship is less in bad weather? I mean, the ship has to use more energy to go through rough sea right?
:-?

I am not sure how is the ships speed affected by the weather in GWX as I play mainly vanilla version. Sure the ship has to use more energy to go through rough sea. when the weather is really awful and big waves, you can clearly hear the propeler revs drop or raise as the ship slows down or accelerate. however, if the turncount tells you the ship is doing 9 knots (just an example), you can rely on it no matter how rough the weather is. slowing down/accelerating due to bad weather has only minor impact on ships speed (although I made no tests with GWX). AFAIK, major weather impact can be observed on fuel consumption in GWX.

[Canovaro]

one question though, I suppose the real speed of the ship is less in bad weather? I mean, the ship has to use more energy to go through rough sea right?
:-?
when the weather is really awful and big waves, you can clearly hear the propeler revs drop or raise as the ship slows down or accelerate.

So that means that the sound depends on the speed instead of vice versa?

[Dantenoc]

Yes, speed is the all powerfull parameter in SHIII, not engine effort. It may not be the only parameter, but it certainly appears to be the main one for almost everything. I beleive you can also observe this same behaviour in the fuel consumption model of your boat (speed determines it, instead of engine effort) :roll:

[raduz]

Yes, speed is the all powerfull parameter in SHIII, not engine effort. It may not be the only parameter, but it certainly appears to be the main one for almost everything. I beleive you can also observe this same behaviour in the fuel consumption model of your boat (speed determines it, instead of engine effort) :roll:

I agree, the engine effort doesnt seem to have any effect on speed or RPM. Alas, the propeller pitch is not modeled in SH3 (neither is in SH4).

[Canovaro]

Raduz, I'm about to try GWX and I'm a big fan of your hydro stuff. Thanks again for the chart! I got a question though.

In the documentation that originally comes from Grayrider there is also information and bearing tables about making shots with no gyro*.
- Does this still work with GWX?

Also the sound cone table for getting range, same question:
-Does this still work with GWX?


* This hydro tutorial is groundbreaking stuff imo! I did a convoy attack (100% realism) all by hydrophone without ever seeing a ship! I sank a C2 (didn't know it was a C2 until I read the captain's log) :lol:

[raduz]

Raduz, I'm about to try GWX and I'm a big fan of your hydro stuff. Thanks again for the chart! I got a question though.

In the documentation that originally comes from Grayrider there is also information and bearing tables about making shots with no gyro*.
- Does this still work with GWX?

Also the sound cone table for getting range, same question:
-Does this still work with GWX?


* This hydro tutorial is groundbreaking stuff imo! I did a convoy attack (100% realism) all by hydrophone without ever seeing a ship! I sank a C2 (didn't know it was a C2 until I read the captain's log) :lol:
Thank you, I am glad there still are people using my tutorial!;)

Attacking without visual contact is always a bit tricky and risky too, because you can sink a friendly or neutral vessel. But still, it is a challenge :up:

As for the bearing tables, you should adress your question to Grey, I have never use it although I wish to.

The sound cone table works for GWX too, because whole principle with the "merchant"/"warship" appearing on the notepad is hard coded, so it could not be modified by anyone, not even by the GWX dev team. So yes, it works the same way both for stock/GWX. Just keep the stock sound files if you wish to use the turn count for getting speed. Happy hunting, mate

[Canovaro]

Raduz, I'm about to try GWX and I'm a big fan of your hydro stuff. Thanks again for the chart! I got a question though.

In the documentation that originally comes from Grayrider there is also information and bearing tables about making shots with no gyro*.
- Does this still work with GWX?

Also the sound cone table for getting range, same question:
-Does this still work with GWX?


* This hydro tutorial is groundbreaking stuff imo! I did a convoy attack (100% realism) all by hydrophone without ever seeing a ship! I sank a C2 (didn't know it was a C2 until I read the captain's log) :lol:
Thank you, I am glad there still are people using my tutorial!;)

Attacking without visual contact is always a bit tricky and risky too, because you can sink a friendly or neutral vessel. But still, it is a challenge :up:

As for the bearing tables, you should adress your question to Grey, I have never use it although I wish to.

The sound cone table works for GWX too, because whole principle with the "merchant"/"warship" appearing on the notepad is hard coded, so it could not be modified by anyone, not even by the GWX dev team. So yes, it works the same way both for stock/GWX. Just keep the stock sound files if you wish to use the turn count for getting speed. Happy hunting, mate

Okay thanks for your answer, glad this still works. Do you know if Greyrider is still around on these boards?

[raduz]

yes, at least once a week. send him a PM.

[SmokinTep]

Awesome job. Will load next time in port.

[greyrider]

i received your PM canovero, and thank you for inviting me to this thread.
the only subsims that i play was the silent hunter series, sh1 to sh4.
we all know that sh1 and sh2 had only one screw sound for propellers,
so it was impossible to do anything with sound with those versions.
so when frank, who was bdu at the time at wpl posted, and asked what should be
included in the next version of sh, i PM frank, and told him about how the u s navy was, or thought of using propeller turncounts
to determine speeds of enemy ships.
like neal, frank must have been in touch with the devs, and they could influence the devs into making the new version more realistic.
so i did write frank, and lo and behold, the new version, (sh3) had propeller sounds that we could use to determine different speeds.
tho the devs worked on it, and this was a start, they did not model propeller pitch realistically.
the way i made the rpm charts was the only way to do it. it was not real, but i was not going to let this opportunity slip away
and i demonstrated that sound can be used to sink ships.
heck when i was an forward observer, and i called for arty
on targets, i used the speed of sound itself to adjust rounds on target, along with my binos, nothing like getting steel on steel
and i could do that alot.
but in reality, how did they do it? how did they make speed curves for enemy ships, that i read in the torpedo fire control manual?
well, a lot of enemy ships had thier turbines built in england, from vickers shipyards, and Brown-Curtis, maybe others.
so these turbines driving propellers of enemy ships were made in an allied country, so in many cases, enemy ship engines sizes
and ratings were known already, and the allies knew what they had, and the propeller pitch could be figured out.
another way was to use the stadimeter, get a speed by observation, then listen in the sound room, for the rpm of that speed, record it
and pass out that info in speed curve charts to the rest of the fleetboats over the course of time.
until we get a sim, maybe sh5, that does model propeller pitch properly, we are limited in what we can do here.
i want to ask a favor from all you sh4 captains out there, i do not want to make speed charts the unreal way, and im not, so what i am doing
is when i play the game, i use the scope first to time the passing of a target, from bow to stern, passing the vertical line of the scope,
i use the formula:
3600 x length of ship / observed time / 2023 yards, at or near a 90 degree angle.
this gives the speed of the target from the scope, and then i go to the sound room, and record the rpm for 1 minute.
if we all do this, and contribute as a "fleet", we will have a good amount of speed curves or charts of enemy ships, and there can be no doubt
about the reality of getting the infomation in this fashion.
ill start with a couple of speeds of a couple of ships.

shiratsuyu destroyer: 12 sec scope time, 18 knots, 71 rpm.

akizuki destroyer: 14 sec scope time, 18 knots, 73 rpm.

medium old split freighter: 26 sec scope time, 9 knots, 40 rpm.
33 sec scope time, 6 knots, 34 rpm.

large old split freighter: 29 sec scope time, 9 knots, 26 rpm.

coastal composite freighter: 17 sec scope time, 9 knots, 47 rpm.

takao heavy cruiser: 31 sec scope time, 13 knots, 42 rpm.

medium modern split freighter: 31 sec scope time, 6 knots, 42 rpm.

large modern composite freighter: 45 sec scope time, 6 knots, 38 rpm.


the above is a pretty good display of military intelligence, for future encounters with these and other targets,
when you go out on your combat patrols,
bring back some intelligence!

oops, guess these observations belong in the sh4 forum
__________________

[kevtherev]

It works in GWX. The only thing it changes are the propeller sound files. Replacing GWX propeller sounds by the stock propellers allows you to use the RPM chart for ID contacts and determinate its speed.

I have GWX with 1.3 patch installed. Installed your tutorial as per 'read me' except that I did not copy the folder 'sound' as you stated, I only copied the contents to SH3/dat/sound folder overwriting when asked.Two of your missions worked fine for me (Intercept and Blind Shoot), the other two (Prop sound and Range to Target) caused CTD. Looking at the last two missions in Mission Editor, every time I tried to bring up the properties for Fleet Auxilliary Ammunition this also CTD'd. Changed these ships for Whale Factory (maybe you could suggest better) now everything is fine both with GWX and Mission Editor. This took some discovering for me and may only apply to my installation although I do not see why ! Anyway thanks for the tutorial, now I can get on with the learning.:up:

[raduz]

Interesting... I have never encountered such a problem and I have no clue whats the cause. anyway I am glad you find a solution that works:up:

[WeeBubba]

hello raduz

thankyou for kindly providing this tutorial. i am new to SH3 and am playing on 100% realism. i am keen to learn the hydrophone techniques.

like the last poster, when i accessed the propellor indentification mission, i also got CTD. i will also change to wale factory? is that ok?

thanks

[WeeBubba]

hello if it is any help i am running GWX 1.03 with SH3comander1.7 and waves mod. how do i change to wale ship? im in mission editor but i dont know ow to fix. will this make tutorial redundant? thanks

[Mueller72]

Thanx for this Raduz. I will give it a try.

I suggest to make the changed files JSGME compatible. Its easier for people to install then.

Best Regards,
Mueller72

[greyrider]

In the documentation that originally comes from Grayrider there is also information and bearing tables about making shots with no gyro*.
- Does this still work with GWX?
Canovaro




not often do i come to the sh3 forums to read or post, but i check on this thread once in a while.

i see a few posts above some people asking for the bearing speed charts for sh3,
for use with the hydrophones.

you can get them here: http://hosted.filefront.com/greyrider/

the file is called:
bearing_speed_charts_sh3


these charts are for straight running torpedoes of 30, 40, and 44 knot speeds.

[Canovaro]

greyrider seems you have been very productive with all those charts. ;)
Thanks. Will have to find a program to open or convert those files first, so will comment on them later.

[dmlavan]

Raduz, Greyrider,
Great job on your respective hydrophone tutorials - very well written and clear. Now my hydrophone operator is no longer hiding in his shack eating sausages - he has the captain looking over his shoulder!

[jmr]

What do I need to open these .wks files? Excell isn't working for me when I try to open them.

[raduz]

Raduz, Greyrider,
Great job on your respective hydrophone tutorials - very well written and clear. Now my hydrophone operator is no longer hiding in his shack eating sausages - he has the captain looking over his shoulder!

yap, thats the way it is supposed to work:arrgh!:

[Canovaro]

Raduz, you know I'm a big fan of your hydro stuff. any plans on making a chart for GWX 2?
There are a lot of new ships...:hmm:

[Pisces]

I had some private message traffic last week with Raduz and he said he wasn't doing anything with SH3 thesedays. So don't count on it. But he did edit his first post of this thread (a day or so ago) adding a fix for the missions that crash that I found out.

I think somebody else would need to do an update for GWX2.

[pino69]

Up.

No GWX2 version yet ?
Can I use the actualversion w/o bugs? Does it mean a whole mess or simply uncomplete charts because of new ships in GWX2 compare to GWX1.3 ?

[Gezur(Arbeit)]

Is this method realistic, did the captains in WWII use the same tactics?

[Warhawk]

Compatible with GWX 3.0G??

[Letum]

Is this method realistic, did the captains in WWII use the same tactics?

Probably not, almost certainly not with unguided torps., but they did test
such methods with the XXI according to one source that I can't find right
now. - grr

[Pisces]

Psst!, Letum, look at the date. ;)

Warhawk, sorry. It wasn't even compatible with GWX 2(.1)

1.04 (or was it .03) was the latest.

[Letum]

Oups!
Caught by a necro.

[The Silence]

the link didnt work just trying to get this mod. i used to use the hydrophone for attacks back when i was playing wolf pack

[Gerald]

What mods do you look for,yes you see the thread is "pretty" old,and welcome to SubSim :) so the link is not available now.

[sublynx]

My understanding is that Raduz's version is not compatible with the latest version of GWX. Canovaro made a new chart that you can use:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=186854&highlight=canovaro+hydrophone

Helpful with GWX, but it doesn't contain data for ships in Merchant Fleet Mod, nor warships.

[Magic1111]

the link didnt work just trying to get this mod. i used to use the hydrophone for attacks back when i was playing wolf pack

:salute::salute:Welcome aboard!!!:salute::salute:

[The Silence]

thank you for the welcome and the link to the hydro phone chart

i am embarrased to say is the theory just to use the chart or is there a mod that actualy measures the rpm of the screws? next i feel really embarassed to say that in the past with out a lock with periscope or binoculors the game would not let me luanch a torp. also i have heard mentioned multiple time opening the torpedo doors which i know is trrue in life but i have yet to have to tell the game to do it and if this is part of my tourbles with luanching torps without lock how do i do it?

[Darojax]

The links in the first post are dead!

Any chance of having them uploaded to subsim instead so they will stay alive forever? (let's hope)

[sublynx]

IIRC Canovaro's Document Collection over in the SH 3 Downloads section has got Raduz's tutorial. With all the new ships available in MFM and USAM the RPM charts won't be much use, but the principles still work.

[sublynx]

U-480's war diary has several mentions of the boat estimating speed from RPM's. Both merchant and destroyer speeds were determined from screw sounds.

www.uboatarchive.net/KTB480-2.htm