Flags - (Not the Clint Eastwood movie)

[Mylander]

OK, I am the last person to whine and complain about this beautiful sim. It looks fantastic. I am dying to get it in the mail and start playing. It will be $50 very well spent with all of the enjoyment I'll get out of it.

At this point, however, I have one suggestion to make. I think it would be fairly simple to implement, either in an Ubi patch or a mod.

The flags on the ships are way too big! They could be 1/4 the size they are now, or even smaller, and would look a whole lot better. Everything alse about the graphics looks so gorgeous, it just kills me to see these ridiculously outsized flags.

I don't know if this was done to facilitate recognizing friend or foe from a distance, or what, but it certainly detracts from immersion/believability in my opinion.

If I can't tell a ship's nationality based on visual recognition and the tactical situation, I need to either a) get closer, or b) consult my recognition manuals. If I have no idea who I'm slinging torpedoes at, I don't have any business being a sub skipper, now do I?

I have no doubt that this can be fixed fairly painlessly. I know SH IV is gold, but this is at the very top of my mod wish list. Other than this flag issue, I think everything looks wonderful. Anyone else agree?

Mylander

[Drebbel]

And what about the location of the flag. Did WWII Jap ships realy fly it from their highest point ?

I am sure the dev-team has made these sacrifices to reality to improve game play. After all the only thing we have to ID our friends/foes is that flag. They ships do not have names on their bow, or do they ?

[Mylander]

And what about the location of the flag. Did WWII Jap ships realy fly it from their highest point ?

I don't know about that.

I am sure the dev-team has made these sacrifices to reality to improve game play. After all the only thing we have to ID our friends/foes is that flag. They ships do not have names on their bow, or do they ?

I respectfully disagree. You don't need to get close enough to read her nameplate! Just close enough to make out the (realistically sized) flag - remember you have some good optics and magnification to do this - and/or based on your tactical situation and the ship type, make a decision of whether to engage or not, i.e. you're in the Bungo Suido, and there's a destroyer coming at you at flank speed, she's probably not a friendly. I don't need a visual on her flag to know that she's Japanese. Nor do I need one if I'm in a known Japanese shipping lane, well beyond friendly territory, and I see a convoy of merchants escorted by ASW ships with the low, sweeping lines of Japanese warships heading for Japan. Or a warship convoy with the characteristic "Pagoda" superstructures. Seeing a flag is a non-issue.

On the other hand, if I'm patrolling at twilight in the Solomons in 1942, I had better be very sure about who I'm shooting at. This is realism in the sim. Visual ship recognition was a very big part of the submarine trade in WWII. These huge flags - might as well just highlight all of the bad guys with a red box around the ship, and a blue box for the good guys. To me this just really "dumbs down" the sim in a very negative and unneccessary way. Just my opinion. Maybe others will love the big flags. I will see if I can change this myself, or lobby for someone else who is smarter to do so if I can't.

Didn't we do this in SH III?

Thanks,
Mylander

[Deep-Six]

Mylander, the only thing you will be shooting at are ships flying the flag of Japan.

How hard can that be. Esp if you are near Japan itself. :D

[JackAubrey]

The flags on the ships are way too big! They could be 1/4 the size they are now, or even smaller, and would look a whole lot better. Everything alse about the graphics looks so gorgeous, it just kills me to see these ridiculously outsized flags.


To me, they don´t seem to be too big.
When i look at that picture and compare the flag size to the men, it seems that the flags were quite big on those japanese ships.

http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/war/asigara.jpg

[Shaffer4]

The one on the mast is much smaller..

[Elder-Pirate]

And what about the location of the flag. Did WWII Jap ships realy fly it from their highest point ?


Evidently they did according to "JackAubrey" post, can't get it much higher. :yep:

Where the heck have you been Drebbel ? Have'nt seen a post by you for a month of sundays..........well maybe two weeks of sundays. :arrgh!:

Anyway good to see your still afloat. ;)

[Mylander]

Mylander, the only thing you will be shooting at are ships flying the flag of Japan.

How hard can that be. Esp if you are near Japan itself. :D

Huh? I think you completely miss the point. :damn: It wouldn't be hard at all with the current flags. So easy, in fact, as to be really stupid. Like I said, why don't we just have a big red box around all of the "bad guy" ships that we can see from 50 miles away? Now that would be fun! And challenging! :nope: One of the main challenges of a sub skipper was target ID.

My point was that we don't need these ridiculously huge "dummy" flags. Now if you're in a situation where both sides have lots of ships operating, you'd better be sure who you are shooting at, whether by flag or silhouette recognition. Flags this size are not carried on seagoing vessels - I'm sorry - they're not. :down: The photo in Jack Aubrey's post notwithstanding, I would bet money that is some kind of ceremonial 'dress' flag especially flown for the photo op, and not used during normal operations.

Japanese merchant vessels especially would not be looking to advertise their nationality. They put themselves in a lot more danger by screaming I'm Japanese! with a huge flag, than just laying low, and hoping nobody figures out that they're Japanese until they're out of range.

Mylander

[Mylander]

Let's put this argument to rest: Barkhorn has posted this excellent link to actual photos of Japanese warships and merchants: http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-fornv/japan/jap-name.htm You can see the flag in many of them. They are absolutely tiny compared to the silly-sized ones in the sim. This is a serious gaffe in the graphics department in my opinion. Makes an otherwise very realistic, beautiful, immersive, graphical experience into a silly, fake one worthy of game boy graphics, not a serious PC sim that is using a 256 MB GPU or more to produce realistic graphics! To each his own on this, but I will be looking to do/beg for a mod on this one. I can't look at those flags and keep a straight face.:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :down:

Mylander

[Elder-Pirate]

Well heres one of those pics from that site Mylander of the Yamoto in 1941 and that flag is huge.
And I don't think its showing off just because its running trials either.

Look at the stern of the Ship I was on in my sig and you can just barely see the flag on the jack, evidently the Japanese think bigger. :lol:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/YamamotoBBwithlargeflag.jpg

[Mylander]

Hey EP, I saw that picture too, and yes I will give you, that is a big frikkin' flag on Yamato. Biggest BB ever built. Pride of Japan. Named Yamato for cryin' out loud. I can promise you, her sea trials were a big-time photo-op.

But you do the math: OK, I will. :D In the photo, on my monitor, that flag on Yamato is 3mm long, the waterline of the ship is 140mm. The flag is about 2% of the waterline length of the ship. Keep in mind, we have both agreed that that is one BIG flag. The Kinai Maru on the website's flag is 1.7% of waterline length. Shokaku, a fleet Aircraft Carrier, flies a flag that is 1% of the length of the ship. The ones on the Marus in the video are 8mm long on a 138mm ship, roughly 6% of the waterline length. Am I to believe that (in relation to the size of the ship, which is how one determines the size of the flag a ship flies) a lowly Maru would dare to fly a flag three times the size of the one Yamato flew during her sea trials? Six times the size of the flag flown on a fleet Aircraft Carrier? Outrageous! The Maru Captain who flew such a flag from his mast would be relieved of his command and laughed out of the merchant marine for being such a buffoon. It flies in the face of all military/naval courtesy, not to mention operational security, good seamanship, and common sense!

The ultimate proof? I showed the new video to my wife, without telling her about this debate. First words out of her mouth? "Aren't the flags on those ships a little big?" :arrgh!: Arrrgh! Take that!

I respectfully submit that those flags should be 1/3 of their current length or less in order to be realistic. Even make them slightly bigger to make up for limitations of people's monitors, I'm not opposed to that, but as they are, they are waaaaay waaaay too big! They look preposterous!

Respectfully,
Mylander

[OneTinSoldier]

I just want to say that I agree with Mylander, from what I've seen I think the flags look DAMN BIG.


:yep:

[Mylander]

Thanks, One Tin Soldier! Someone who's been around ships! Elder Pirate, clearly I am not referring to you - I respect your experience a "Tin Can Sailor". It's clear to me that the Japanese liked bigger flags than the USN. But not as big as the ones currently in the sim. Not even close.

Regards,
Mylander

[Boris]

Realistic or not, I would say the dev's reasoning behind this, was to make the ships nationalities more apparent at long ranges, something that was hard to identify by flags in SH3.

[Safe-Keeper]

Bah. Everyone knows from watching the movies that standard USN doctrine is to surface near enemy ships to IFF. Two task forces engaged in battle? The one shooting at you is IJN. Submerge and return fire:know:.

[Iron Budokan]

Our excellent modding community will fix this flag problem, I'm sure.

[Mylander]

Our excellent modding community will fix this flag problem, I'm sure.

Of that, I have no doubt.

Mylander

[Pit]

Hey EP, I saw that picture too, and yes I will give you, that is a big frikkin' flag on Yamato. Biggest BB ever built. Pride of Japan. Named Yamato for cryin' out loud. I can promise you, her sea trials were a big-time photo-op.

But you do the math: OK, I will. :D In the photo, on my monitor, that flag on Yamato is 3mm long, the waterline of the ship is 140mm. The flag is about 2% of the waterline length of the ship. Keep in mind, we have both agreed that that is one BIG flag. The Kinai Maru on the website's flag is 1.7% of waterline length. Shokaku, a fleet Aircraft Carrier, flies a flag that is 1% of the length of the ship. The ones on the Marus in the video are 8mm long on a 138mm ship, roughly 6% of the waterline length. Am I to believe that (in relation to the size of the ship, which is how one determines the size of the flag a ship flies) a lowly Maru would dare to fly a flag three times the size of the one Yamato flew during her sea trials? Six times the size of the flag flown on a fleet Aircraft Carrier? Outrageous! The Maru Captain who flew such a flag from his mast would be relieved of his command and laughed out of the merchant marine for being such a buffoon. It flies in the face of all military/naval courtesy, not to mention operational security, good seamanship, and common sense!

The ultimate proof? I showed the new video to my wife, without telling her about this debate. First words out of her mouth? "Aren't the flags on those ships a little big?" :arrgh!: Arrrgh! Take that!

I respectfully submit that those flags should be 1/3 of their current length or less in order to be realistic. Even make them slightly bigger to make up for limitations of people's monitors, I'm not opposed to that, but as they are, they are waaaaay waaaay too big! They look preposterous!

Respectfully,
Mylander

Well... I don't know about the IJN... but MOST countrie use a standrd sized flags on ALL vessels in given locations... the bigger the ship the smaller the comparative sive of the flag to the ship...

Anyway... my point is that I would think that ALL flages would be of standard sizes for ALL ships and the particular location they were to be flown. And the Japanese TRULY liked things to be in absolute strict order!! :arrgh!: :rock:

[Mylander]

Well... I don't know about the IJN... but MOST countrie use a standrd sized flags on ALL vessels in given locations... the bigger the ship the smaller the comparative sive of the flag to the ship...

Yes, but the IJN is not most civilian governments now. Clearly they had many different flag sizes. And actually my experience is that the flag a ship flies is definitely determined by the size of the ship.


Anyway... my point is that I would think that ALL flages would be of standard sizes for ALL ships and the particular location they were to be flown. And the Japanese TRULY liked things to be in absolute strict order!! :arrgh!: :rock:

Then I must refer you to the photographs in my final post here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=107308 Photographs don't lie. Those flags are 3-4 times bigger than they should be. Sorry.

Where are you in Utah? I "did" 6 years there until 2003. (Wife's from there) back home now.

Mylander

[E.Hartmann]

Please dont confuse fleet propaganda flags with actual battle flags. Most of the huge ones were for the press. Look at actual shots of in battle stuff and its the small flags at the top most times. Plus fishing vessles didn't use them either. Enough folks ask maybe a mod or a patch can come after release to make it an option. :hmm:

[Mylander]

Please dont confuse fleet propaganda flags with actual battle flags. Most of the huge ones were for the press. Look at actual shots of in battle stuff and its the small flags at the top most times. Plus fishing vessles didn't use them either. Enough folks ask maybe a mod or a patch can come after release to make it an option. :hmm:


BINGO!

Hey look, I'm a "Sailor Man!" Ugugugugugugg!

Mylander

[d@rk51d3]

Anybody else notice on the SHIV movies, that the flags are still waving on ships as they sink to the bottom? :nope:

I thought they could have fixed that at least.

[Barkhorn1x]

Anybody else notice on the SHIV movies, that the flags are still waving on ships as they sink to the bottom? :nope:

I thought they could have fixed that at least.

Yea, we all pretty much think that is lame. But if the flag issues are all we have to worry about we will be lucky indeed.

[Elder-Pirate]

Hmmm maybe I should buy a can of "Bug Spray" for my new SH IV when it arrives.:rotfl: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/crazy21.gif

[Mylander]

Yea, we all pretty much think that is lame. But if the flag issues are all we have to worry about we will be lucky indeed.

I agree! Flag size won't be hard to fix - I've been doing this since Silent Service, and I have high hopes for SH IV!

The flag behavior underwater may be a much tougher nut to crack, but it's not so important - to me at least.

Mylander

[danoh]

All this about surface ship flags is well and good, but the flags I'm interested in are the ones I get to hang out from the sub as I cruise back into port after another successful patrol.

I like to drive the boat all the way back to the dock, and it would be great if, say after sinking six ships I could hang flags with their tonnage (3000, 4500, etc). Or better yet, put a broom on the mast to celebrate a clean sweep! THAT would make for a great screen shot to cap off a good patrol.

Any chance this will be included or in a future patch?

[THE_MASK]

Has anyone thought that maybe by ticking the 100% realistic option , this might give actual size flags and not arcade size flags . Just a thought .

[Aimbot]

They've already stated their reasoning for this. It's compensating for the limits of a moniter. No matter how high the resolution or large the moniter it's imposible to have visibility that compares to the real thing, as you're looking at an artificial image on a limited screen visibility will be realatively poor. The flags in SHIII were proportionally correct, but harder to read than if you were in 1942.

[Mylander]

Which is when I submit , you have to use some tactical judgement and/or magnification (binoculars, scope)to be sure of who you're shooting at. If you're still unsure (gulp) get closer. This is part of the fun in my opinion. Arcade sized flags just dumb it all down.

My$.02

Mylander