What are the Top Ten Sinkings in WW2 by a Sub?

[Mush Martin]

I was Just reading the thread Crab Walk where they are talking about
the sinking of Wilhelm Gustloff.

Many or assumably most of us are familiar with the worst sinking of the war

But my question is what are the top ten sinkings of the war.

list some nominees and we will put up a poll.

arguments should be supported with info.
So post a blurb on the sinking your nominating.

MM:|\\

[leeclose]

the HMS Royal oak has to be one of hem sunk at Scapa flow on October 14, 1939. with the loss of 833 lives ive also attached a sonar image of her as she lies it seems to be one of the greatest feats of the U-boats but such a tragic loss of life.

Plus she is an offical War grave and is still leaking Fuel oil more than 65+ years later. When she was sunk, while providing anti-aircraft protection for Kirkwall, it was laden with 3,000 tonnes of furnace oil. After the sinking, around 1,000 tonnes remained on board and has been slowly leaking ever since.

This prompted a rescue operation by the MoD's Salvage and Marine Operations branch, starting in 2001, which has so far tapped into some of the 70 fuel tanks and slowly extracted almost half of the remaining oil.

Of the 390 servicemen who survived, only around a dozen are still alive, most in their 80s. It is a night that Robert Edmunds, now 88 and living in Hull, will never forget.

The crew of the U-47 must have thought xmas had come and no doubt Priens most prodigous sinking for the whole of WW2.
Prien described the devastation in his log: "After three tense minutes comes the detonation… There is a loud explosion, roar and rumbling. Then come columns of water, followed by columns of fire and splinters fly through the air."

For Prien he received a heroes welcome back home while 833 families received thet telegram of fate to say a father/son/brother etc had died serving king and country probablu for me one of the Best and worst sinkings of WW2.


http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t128/leeclose/2409oakb.jpg

[Mush Martin]

I for one would rank Priens attack among the top ten
on Dash and Boldness alone. Never Mind the actual
effectiveness.

all of the sinkings submitted of course will usually involve deep
tragedy.

that is the sad and darkside of our fascination.
but I think for most here at subsim it is the situational
mental game of submarine operation that fascinate us
and consume us. I am not given to the impression
that we are bloodthirsty. on the contrary as a matter
of fact as a community we seem to fairly consistently
try to remember the cost in lives.

[leeclose]

Yup mush we deffinatl;y know the diffrence between fact and fiction r more to the point having fun theres an old saying and its true "War is Hell" never a truer word spoken. Any way its gota be my fav sinking Prien had balls in my honest opinion:up:

[Brag]

SH3 & GWX bring out a historical awarness and understanding difficult to achieve by other means alone (books,films, archives).

In a little way, we've been there. :dead:

[Warmonger]

I regularly check the "What happened on..." section over at uboat.net and click through the ships sunk or damaged especially in '44 or '45.

When I look at some of the locations where those ships have been torpedoed I always wonder "How on earth did the sub manage to do this?", sink ships in the Channel or in St. George's strait or close to the English coastline with all the planes, DDs, mines and whatever around. :huh:

So my nomination would be just about every ship sunk in late '44 or '45.

[leeclose]

Sory war i think he was more meaning a specific sinking not all of em over a 2 year period nice try tho:up:

[mr chris]

Here are the biggest by the U-Boat arm.
http://uboat.net/special/biggest.htm

[Mush Martin]

SH3 & GWX bring out a historical awarness and understanding difficult to achieve by other means alone (books,films, archives).

In a little way, we've been there. :dead:

That is exactly correct more so than books or movies we create a living
history here.

we are privelidged to understand the subject today in a way our fathers
never could.

this is why The Conservative Lobby that Strive for Historical Correctness
are so Important to this community.

I am quite likely viewed more as a pariah than a purist by the action Uberboot is getting. But Historical Correctness was the whole driving
force behind River Class frigate. The game was missing the second most
common commonwealth combatant. 136 ships needed to be put back into
the game. (Thanks again BBW)

I am a lover of subsims and have played them since 8bit nintendo but
I think of myself as a student of History first.

[Mush Martin]

Empress of Britain should make it and certainly more than that.

MM

[Crosseye76]

The Biggest of them all: Archerfish > Shinano.

[mookiemookie]

The Laconia incident should be mentioned. Not for it's value as a sinking, but more for its importance in what it meant for the overall course of the war as it led to the Laconia Befehl (take no prisoners, offer no assistance, etc).

From the standpoint of the sinking of a target of military/propaganda importance, I'd go with the Royal Oak, Barham, or the sinking of the Courageous in '39. Royal Oak showed that even Scapa Flow wasn't safe, the Barham showed the vulnerability of capital warships to submarine attack, and the Courageous was a blow to the U-boats most hated enemy, the airplane.

[Mush Martin]

The Biggest of them all: Archerfish > Shinano.

Lucky to have gotten the hits and lucky that ship and crew werent
prepared this one definately would go down as a victory of intelligence.
with it being the best example of a directed intercept.

[Mush Martin]

I Believe that Athenia should Probably get a slot.

it was the opening kickoff for the biggest campaign in history.
First is first, its an Interesting study in um military diplomacy.
its the incedent that drew Canada into the war.
it occured less than six hours after the declaration of war
and it wasnt a bad attack.( I'm not passing a moral judgement)
(im talking about technically)

[leeclose]

Yup it was a pretty nasty one with lots of kick back:yep:

[Mush Martin]

We should try to submit this to the producers of that show if we
get to a final list.

[leeclose]

From my view point for what its worth any decent boat skipper German/US/RN etc would have walked away from that attack or well i would have theres a fine line as a skipper that you need to know not to cross.:up:

[Mush Martin]

From my view point for what its worth any decent boat skipper German/US/RN etc would have walked away from that attack or well i would have theres a fine line as a skipper that you need to know not to cross.:up:
Yes but I am not a trained submarine commander I am an unemployed narcisistic Meglomaniacal global dictator looking for work.

More seriously that could be said about a few of the attacks mentioned so far.

what was the cleanest priens I suppose or no empress of britain.
but she was a wounded duck..

should we come up with a points system ?

[leeclose]

Yes i would think so I.E how easy to kill/tonnage/lifes lost/torps used etc:up:

[Mush Martin]

well lets bear in mind the potential to suggest it to the producers of top ten.

how about :

Approach.

Effect.

Economy.

Significance.

Dash.

Give em a 1 to 10

[romelus]

i'll have to vote for the shinano sinking. wasn't a hard target, but it was essentially a yamato.:|\\

[leeclose]

well lets bear in mind the potential to suggest it to the producers of top ten.

how about :

Approach.

Effect.

Economy.

Significance.

Dash.

Give em a 1 to 10

Add in Tonage of the vessel sank u-boat number and if possible skipper of the u-boat and the sunk wessel:up: and i think that would gie a good mix:yep:

[Mush Martin]

well lets bear in mind the potential to suggest it to the producers of top ten.

how about :

Approach.

Effect.

Economy.

Significance.

Dash.

Give em a 1 to 10
Add in Tonage of the vessel sank u-boat number and if possible skipper of the u-boat and the sunk wessel:up: and i think that would gie a good mix:yep:

Not limited to german subs and tonnage covered by effect.
the top ten german sinkings are posted on a link to Uboat net above.
MM

[leeclose]

Yup thats what i was thinking no point in just makeing it the Kriegsmarine make it every one that was involved including the french:up:

[Steeltrap]

Interesting to note that the CLs on the list of the largest warships sunk only required 1 torp to do the trick (although some were unlucky enough to cop more!)....

[leeclose]

Here's a more intresting point whats the maximum Fish ever needed to sink a ship?

[Mush Martin]

Here's a more intresting point whats the maximum Fish ever needed to sink a ship?



I dont know yet but Im betting its ten american mark fourteens
against a single hit and damage before I even look.

MM

[leeclose]

i gto a funny feeling you could be dead right Mush:up:

[ReallyDedPoet]

I'll be back to you on this one:hmm:

[CCIP]

Although tragic for the crewmen of HMS Dunedin, I would put her sinking by my favorite boat and skipper (Mohr, U-124) among the top. She was sunk by a three-torpedo spread fired from long range, while the cruiser was zig-zagging, and while the boat had problems keeping trim. Two of the three torpedoes hit the relatively small target (compared to a BB) after a running time of 5 minutes (!) - you skippers can estimate the range from there - and it sunk almost immediately.

That was one heck of a kill, you must admit.

[Mush Martin]

124 had a good career and that is quite a shot.

do you know of a detailed account I couldnt find
a description of the shot on Uboatnet?

I wonder what the longest sub on ship shot was

assumably Japanese.

[leeclose]

5 mins i reckon 8 to 9000 meteres maybe more wowo what a shot like shooting a small flying insects whotsits off at 500 meters while blindfolded:up: Oh and mush check here mate http://www.hmsdunedin.co.uk/

[CCIP]

Yep, right there on the Dunedin page we have the account!

On the afternoon of the same day, U-124 (http://www.hmsdunedin.co.uk/u-124.htm), commanded by Jochen Mohr, was on its way to rendezvous with Python. Near St Paul’s Rocks, 900 miles west of Freetown, just south of the Equator, Mohr sighted Dunedin to his north east sailing a north west course. He therefore hauled out to the west to lie in wait for Dunedin. But Dunedin’s lookout spotted U-124’s periscope around 12.50pm and the Captain changed course to set off in pursuit. But because of U-124’s change of course west, Dunedin was now unwittingly pulling away from U-124. When Mohr surfaced again he saw Dunedin disappearing into the distance, at least 4,000 yards away. He nevertheless fired three torpedoes. Incredibly, from this distance, two were on target even though Dunedin was steaming 17 knots, and was under constant wheel.

The two torpedoes hit within seconds of each other, at around 1326 GMT, the first striking amidships, wrecking the main wireless office, the second further aft, probably near the officers’ quarters. The first hit sent the ship lurching to starboard, the second caused even greater damage dismounting the after 6in gun, and blowing off the starboard screw. Immediately men began to abandon ship, jumping over the side to the Carley floats and any available debris. Dunedin turned on her beam ends and sank in about seventeen minutes. According to U-124’s war diary, Mohr moved in before Dunedin sank and fired a fourth torpedo, but missed.

[Mush Martin]

certainly was a good shot.

I wonder what the Japanese didtance record is.
ill ask on sh4 and see if we can find out.

MM

[scrag]

Here is a copy of the actual report - Archerfish intercepted and sank the CV as it was transfering from Yokosuka to Kure for fitting out. The ship actually sank a bit later as the fires continued to burn and the explosive fumes from the bunker oil had built up in lower spaces - this combined with no water tight doors and a small crew led to the ships utlimate demise.
Also notice that Archerfish thought the ship was a different class and was credited initially with the smaller tonnage.
SS311/A16
Serial (013-44)
CONFIDENTIAL

Subject: U.S.S. ARCHER-FISH(SS311) - REPORT OF FIFTH WAR PATROL
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

(H) ATTACK DATA

U.S.S. ARCHER-FISH TORPEDO ATTACK No. 1 PATROL No. 5

Time: 0317 Date: 11-29-44 Lat. 32 N. Long. 137 E.

TARGET DATA - DAMAGE INFLICTED

Description: A task group of one large aircraft carrier and four
destroyers was detected by radar at 24,700 yards. The
sky was overcast with a bright moon undermeath giving
a visibility of about 15,000 yards. Tracking was accomp-
lished on the surface and a submerged attack was on
the carrier, Hayataka or Taiho class "EC".

Ship Sunk: One large aircraft carrier similar to the Hayataka class
tonnage approximately 28,000.

Damage Determined by:
Six torpedoes were fired from the bow nest. The first
hit was heard and observed just inside the carrier's stern.
Second hit was heard and observed about 50 yards forward of
the first. Four more properly timed hits were heard while
we were going to deep submergence to evade the escorts.
Breaking up noises started immediately and continued for
47 minutes. Credit is claimed for a sinking because of the
following items:
(a) Six certain hits (2 observed)
(b) Heavy screws stopped and did not restart.
(c) Loud breaking up noises for 47 minutes.
(d) Escorts gave us slight attention and closed
carrier, probably picking up survivors.

Target draft - 30 feet Course - 198 Speed - 18 Range - 1400

OWN SHIP DATA

Speed - 3.5 Course 092 Depth 65' Angle 1° up

FIRE CONTROL AND TORPEDO DATA

Type Attack: This attack was a combined surface and submerged attack
in that the approach phase was made on the surface while
the attack phase was made submerged. During the five
hour tracking period both plot and the TDC were manned
continually, giving excellent results. The data computed
by plot of the enemy's base course was very valuable in
aiding the "end around". The SJ radar was used both for
tracking the target and detection; making a full 360°
sweep on the 8000 yard and 40,000 yard scale once every
three minutes. The "PPI" scope on the radar was used to

-18- Enclosure (A)

[scrag]

I also am posting an account of the attack on the USS WASP by the I-19.
Certain demonstraits that the I boats were very capable of inflicting damage and this is probably one of the better examples for the IJN. Most notorious would have been the sinking of the Cruiser Indianapolis. Of note the use of Type-95 Torps - the fabled "Long Lance" was a Destroyer and Cruiser weapon only - NO IJN Submarines carried 61cm (24 inch) tubes. They carried only 53 CM (21 inch) tubes.
Table Courtesy of

http://www.combinedfleet.com/torps.htm

[yobert]

Sinking of Ark royal must be in top ten?

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ark_Royal_%2891%29 (http://http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ark_Royal_%2891%29)

[leeclose]

I would say so but what makes it one of the top ten for you give us your reason why and where and how and etc:up:

[CCIP]

I would say so but what makes it one of the top ten for you give us your reason why and where and how and etc:up:

I say it definitely qualifies! A carrier sunk with just one torpedo, and just 25 miles off Gibraltar at that. Although I think the structural weaknesses of the ship certainly had a role to play there, it was still a superb shot I imagine. And not in the safest waters either...

[leeclose]

I would say literally a 1 in a million shot i mean 1 torp how lucky was that sub skipper wish it would happen in SH3 :up:

[Iron Budokan]

I would put the sinking of the Indianapolis in the top ten. While the Japanese submarine didn't get to her before she delivered the Bomb, the horror in the water that ensued after her sinking can never be forgotten....

Definitely one of the "top ten" I'd say....

[azn_132]

I would put the sinking of the Indianapolis in the top ten. While the Japanese submarine didn't get to her before she delivered the Bomb, the horror in the water that ensued after her sinking can never be forgotten....

Definitely one of the "top ten" I'd say....

U mean the Indy's crew gettin eatin by sharks?

[Mush Martin]

its nice to see a little action here while I was gone.

I thought this would be a good thread idea.

agree on archerfish not only for the terrible weather conditions
the shot was made in
but also because archerfish's intercept was a directed intercept
with a small window of opportunity in very poor conditions.

That they were able to even take the shot was an amazing accomplishment
of organizational teamwork. never mind the hit or the immense size and potential value of the target.

Ark royal would be a valid contender Gibralter area is clearly
hostile waters actively patrolled.

Many internal factors contributed to many sinkings.

what about Taiho?

Now this further raises a point most of us so far have
tended to go with size matters.

but what makes a good attack
dash
elan
planning
Persistence
positioning
execution
tactical effect
Strategic effect
efficiency
cost

did I miss any there?

the point is that the mini sub attacks should be under review
as well as attacks on other units even merchies.

in the catagories above the term "Strategic effect" refers to
the type of stuff achieved by say Von Spee's far eastern squadron
in ww1 where the small number of ships effected traffic on the
entire eastern and western pacific and just the single raider
Emden herself affected traffic for the better part of several
months on the entire indian ocean
these effects are all out of proportion of the number of ships
and combat power of von spee's squadron

so the candidate attacks dont have to be about the most tonnage
though the tonnage is a factor.

I like red rammages attacks.
or
howard gilmour
the determination in attack by guys like
Dealey or Morton.

what about Dick Okane he must have something worthy
in his full bag?

never mind that we have British Italian Japanese German American
Dutch and many other possibles.

this thing should scrutinize the validity of the attack.

Priens attack on Royal Oak will Make it for certain
on the above criterion Im sure hell score very high
but where he lands in the voting that follows the
accumulation of this list remains to be seen.



cost

[Mush Martin]

15 September 1942:
At 0950, while running submerged, the sound operator reports a contact with many heavy screws at 12-18S, 164-15E. Kinashi orders I-19 to periscope depth. He makes a sweep with his 'scope but no ships are in sight. 250 miles SE of Guadalcanal. Captain (later Admiral) Forrest P. Sherman's USS WASP and Captain Charles P. Mason's (later Rear Admiral) HORNET (CV-8) are escorting a reinforcement convoy of six transports carrying the 7th Marine Regiment from Espiritu Santo to reinforce Guadalcanal. The carriers are steaming in sight of each other about 8 miles apart. Each carrier forms the nucleus of a task force. Captain George H. Fort's (later Rear Admiral) battleship USS NORTH CAROLINA (BB-55) is with the HORNET task force to the NE of the WASP force. At 1050, Kinashi raises his periscope again. This time he sees a carrier, a heavy cruiser and several destroyers (Rear Admiral Leigh Noyes' Task Force 18) bearing 045T at 9 miles. Kinashi estimates the task force's course at 330 and begins a slow approach. The Americans, zigzagging at 16 knots, change course to WNW. Then at 1120, the target group again changes course -this time to SSE. The WASP makes a slow left turn into the wind to launch and recover her aircraft - and heads toward the I-19. Kinashi estimates that his target is on course 130 degrees making 12 knots. At 1145, from 50 degrees starboard, he fires a spread of six Type 95 oxygen-propelled torpedoes at the enemy carrier from 985 yards. Two or possibly three hit the WASP and start an uncontrollable fire. The HORNET force continues a right turn to a 280 degree base course. Suddenly, an alarm is heard the tactical radio speakers from the USS LANSDOWNE (DD-486) in the WASP's screen "... torpedo headed for formation, course 080!" At 1152, a torpedo from the I-19's salvo hits the NORTH CAROLINA in her port bow abreast of her forward main battery turret.*** The blast holes the side protection below the armor belt and the NORTH CAROLINA takes on a thousand tons of water. She takes on a five-degree list but counter flooding quickly levels her and she makes 25 knots. At 1154, a torpedo hits the destroyer O'BRIEN's (DD-415) port quarter**** and another just misses the HORNET. The I-19 dives to 265 feet under the carrier's wake. The first depth charge explodes six minutes after the last torpedo hit. Soon the depth charges were exploding all around. American destroyers try to surround the I-19 to attack together and finish her off. They rain down 30 depth charges. At noon, the WASP's avgas tanks explode. At 1515, two cruisers and destroyers abandon the WASP and withdraw to the south. At 1520, Captain Sherman orders "Abandon Ship". The carrier is scuttled by five torpedoes from the LANSDOWNE and sinks by the bow at about 2100. The WASP suffers 193 killed and 367 wounded. 25 September 1942:
Arrives at Truk.

[edit] if you look closely at this report the hit on North carolina and the dd were in a different group
than wasp the range isnt given and the times arent quite clear in this acct but it seems to have
been a very long shot and a very good yield. Albeit North Carolina and Obrien were Collateral damage

[CCIP]

Very nice attack - though as far as the sinking itself (the only one that could be credited here), you have to agree: anyone who missed an aircraft carrier with a 6-torpedo spread from 985 yards would probably have to commit seppuku then and there :doh:

[I-25]

HUmm lets not forget the sinking of the USS Yorktown by capitan Tanabe in the I-168 in the battle of midway.

[leeclose]

We should make it any Country's with subs torps used/tonnage/luck/ and after action report included and all the stuff mush said so when we going to start it mush oh and if you can add pictures of the sub that did it and the ship that they sunk would be good as well.:up:

[Mush Martin]

Very nice attack - though as far as the sinking itself (the only one that could be credited here), you have to agree: anyone who missed an aircraft carrier with a 6-torpedo spread from 985 yards would probably have to commit seppuku then and there :doh:
Three torps from the spread sank wasp in the group that turned toward
him? DD obrien in Hornet goup was a sunk as well.

[Mush Martin]

We should make it any Country's with subs torps used/tonnage/luck/ and after action report included and all the stuff mush said so when we going to start it mush oh and if you can add pictures of the sub that did it and the ship that they sunk would be good as well.:up:
Well once we have gatherd some entrants if the final list is ten
I think we should hold for fiteen or twenty and vote the top
ten out of that pool

to make the pool list you must pass a criterion
and to make the final list the attack must win
by popular vote.

the list and the criterion are what we are working up here really.

MM

[leeclose]

Ok well lets get workign on the criteria then mush im all for it:up:

[scrag]

BARB is unique for a number of reasons - the first use of rockets for shore bombardment by a submarine, the only landing of US Forces on the Japanese home Islands and subsequent destruction of a 16 car train using the ships scuttling charges. Certainly one of the most unique kills and worthy of top ten status.

[leeclose]

Ya got to find the whole story mate thats a brilliant one:up:

[Mush Martin]

weve put up a few criterion before in no real order.

so lets sort that out.

First of all we should actually limit the number of criterion.

how many does top ten usually use five or six??
anybody remember?

[scrag]

A bit long but makes for interesting reading and certainly worthy of the most Unique Kill.

Barb got underway eastward on 11 February and arrived at Pearl Harbor four days later. From there, she continued on to the Mare Island Navy Yard, where she began a major overhaul on 27 February. The repair work was completed on 16 May, and the submarine returned to Pearl Harbor. After training and the installation of a 5 inch rocket launcher on her deck, the submarine got underway on 8 June for Midway where she topped off for her 12th war patrol. Except for three days of lifeguard duty, this offensive patrol was conducted north of Hokkaido and east of Karafuto. She reached her assigned area on 21 June and immediately sank two luggers at close range with gunfire. Barb then sailed for the shore of Japan to turn her weapons on shore uttacks. During the early morning hours of 22 June, she took station 5,250 yards from the center of the town of Shari. From that point, she made history as the first submarine to employ rockets successfully against shore installations. She fired 12 rockets that exploded in the town center causing damage but no fires. The Japanese believed that an air raid was in progress and activated air search radar and turned search lights to the sky while Barb retired safely seaward. Early the next morning, she encountered a large wooden trawler and sank it with gunfire, taking on board one prisoner.


Three days later, Barb sighted over 40,000 yards away a convoy consisting of three freighters, one destroyer, two escorts, and two patrol craft. For three hours, the submarine attempted to close the Japanese ships. Then the convoy changed its base course, leaving only one escort near enough for Barb to attack. At this time, a brilliant moon illuminated Barb, and the escorts opened fire and forced her to break off the chase. While shadowing the convoy for two more days, Barb mounted two unsuccessful attacks with electric torpedoes and endured an equally unsuccessful counterattack by the Japanese escorts before abandoning the chase to make another shore bombardment.


During daylight on 2 July, Barb surfaced 1,100 yards off a seal rookery at Kaihyo To and fired salvo after salvo into the town, destroying 20 buildings. Her 40 millimeter guns effectively silenced the opposition, and Barb even gutted three sampans moored at the docks. Intending to land a commando party, Barb moved toward the beach but withdrew upon discovering four pillboxes on the island. The next day, the submarine continued to wage war along the Japanese coast by firing 12 rockets at Shikuka. Hits exploded in a concentration of buildings but started no fires.


On 5 July, while in Aniwa Bay, Barb intercepted and sank the small cargo ship Sapporo Maru No. 11. Two pairs of Japanese escorts aggressively searched for her, but the submarine escaped by running silently for four hours along the shallow edges of a minefield. Shifting to a new sector in her patrol area, Barb destroyed a Japanese lugger with gunfire and a large diesel sampan on 11 July. On the morning of 18 July, the submarine fired her last five torpedoes at a cargo vessel and that ship's escort. One torpedo hit the stern of Coastal Defense Vessel No. 112 and sank her, but the cargo ship maneuvered skillfully and escaped. However, Comdr. Fluckey used his other weapons to continue attacks against the Japanese.


On 19 July, while patrolling in Patience Bay near Otasamu on the east coast of Karafuto, he observed a railroad running close to the coastline. He watched the tracks for the next three days, to establish train schedules and to plan a raid. On the night of 22 and 23 July, eight crewmen went ashore in pitch darkness. Compass problems and navigational errors put the force on the beach about 50 yards from a house and in a thicket of waist high bulrushes which crackled with every move. The leader of the party fell headfirst into a four foot ditch at the side of a road; then, after safely running across the road, he fell into a similar ditch on the other side. Another 1,000 yards brought the inexperienced saboteurs to the tracks.


A train rumbled past before the group could set the charge, and the saboteurs jumped into the bushes to hide as the train passed but a few feet away. Afterwards, they set the 55 pound demolition charge which would explode when the next train passed. The saboteurs returned to their rubber boats to the sound of an approaching train. As they paddled furiously for Barb, the engine detonated the charge, and the group witnessed a fiery crash. Locomotive wreckage flew two hundred feet in the air and crashed in a mass of flame and smoke. Twelve freight cars, two passenger cars, and one mail car derailed and piled up in a mound of twisted metal. The saboteurs safely reembarked, and Fluckey moved on to another location to continue wreaking havoc.


On 24 July, Barb launched three rocket attacks on Shiritori, igniting large fires and setting off heavy explosions. Thick clouds of smoke obscured the targets, so Barb proceeded to Kashiho and fired a salvo of rockets at the factories there. The rockets landed in the target area but started no fires, and damage could not be assessed.


Then, during the daylight hours of 25 July, Barb turned her guns on a group of sampans, sinking all six of them. In between surface attacks, she bombarded the canneries at Chirie; and on 26 July, with only 40 millimeter and 20 millimeter ammunition remaining, the submarine hit Shibetoro with a sweeping gun attack. Hits on an oil tank caused fires which spread and destroyed a lumber mill and a sampan building yard. Barb then attacked a trawler close to shore until blazing fires consumed it. The trawler did not sink until the submarine rammed it and pushed it under. This action ended her last war patrol, and Barb set course for Midway. She arrived there on 2 August and was there when the news of the Japanese surrender arrived on the 15th.

[leeclose]

i would go with 6:up: I have to admit that was a skipper with much kudos talk about giving it ur all wow great story cheers for that one

[Mush Martin]

@Scrag

Just curious but you wouldnt happen to have gotten that from
"Undersea Victory" would you?

[I-25]

heres more on the I-168

6 June 1942:
At 0410, one of the I-168's lookouts spots the YORKTOWN about 12 miles away. At 0600, Tanabe spots the first destroyers. He submerges and slows to three knots. As he closes, he sees six destroyers circling a mile away. The minesweeper VIREO has the YORKTOWN in tow. At 0605, the USS HAMMANN (DD-412) puts a salvage party aboard the carrier. The HAMMANN is secured to the YORKTOWN's starboard side and provides power for the carrier's pumps and foam to fight the fires.
The I-168 arrives and sights the carrier and her screen. For nine hours, Tanabe skillfully makes his approach steering by chart and sound with only a few periscope sightings. Undetected, he penetrates the destroyer and cruiser screen. At 1331, from 1,900 yards, he fires two torpedoes at the overlapping formation, followed by two more three seconds later. The first torpedo hits the HAMMANN, breaks her back and sinks her in about four minutes. As she goes down, her depth charges explode and kill 81 of her 241-strong crew. At 1332, the next two torpedoes strike the YORKTOWN starboard below the bridge. The fourth torpedo misses and passes astern.
At 1336, American destroyers commence a counterattack. A destroyer passes directly overhead and drops two depth charges. After more attacks the forward torpedo room and maneuvering room flood. After battery cells are extensively damaged and all crew dons gas masks. The outer and inner doors of torpedo tube No. 1 spring and admit water. The lights go out and the emergency lights come on.
At 1640, with his batteries nearly exhausted, Tanabe battle surfaces determined to go down fighting, but the three destroyers USS GWIN (DD-433), HUGHES (DD-410) and the MONAGHAN (DD-354) are about five miles away. Tanabe sets off at the best speed the I-168 can now make - only 14 knots. Tanabe signals to the flagship of the Combined Fleet YAMATO that he has attacked and sunk the YORKTOWN. One destroyer closes within 5,470 yards, firing intermittently. After the emergency repair of an electric engine is completed, Tanabe submerges again. The I-168 stays down until 2000 and then resurfaces. During 13 hours of chase, she has been attacked with some 40 depth-charges.
Contrary to Tanabe's report, the YORKTOWN has not yet sunk. The two torpedo hits corrected her list from 26 to 17 degrees. Captain Buckmaster removes the salvage party and plans to resume work in the morning.
Admiral Yamamoto suspends the invasion of Midway.
7 June 1942:
At 0458, the 19,875-ton YORKTOWN rolls over to port and sinks in about 3,000 fathoms of water.* Cdr Tanabe has made the biggest kill yet by any submarine in the Pacific.


He made the kill with 6th Year Type torpedos.

6th Year Type21"22' 5"3157 lbs.441 lbs.7,000m @ 36 kts
10,000m @ 32 kts
15,000m @ 26 kts ?An older torpedo still used in some of the older RO-class submarines

[scrag]

I got it online but it was repeated on a few links - I also bounced it off of "Thunder Below". It was a lot of fun researching some of this. One of the things about Pearl Harbor is I can walk 5 minutes from where I work and look at the ARIZONA Memorial or look over and see the USS BOWFIN. There are a number of memorials for lost boats here at Pearl. I met ADM Fluckey when he was present for dedicating Fluckey Hall in Norfolk. Frankly I wish we had more Mortons, O'Kanes, Fluckeys and Gilmores (to name a few). What a cadre of submariners. The same can be spoken of the U-Boats and their crews - having toured U-505 in Chicago I remain in awe as to how tight the spaces where and how far the boats went to execute there missions.

[Mush Martin]

Hawaii very very nice.

Ive read Bowfins entire war.

MM

[Mush Martin]

OK so six.

Approach : Discipline to achieve good position.
flexability of postion for engage disengage
difficulty of position achievement.


execution : was it a well planned approach with a
clean execution. or a good snapshot
improvisation
(this one may be hard to score lets debate it once more)


Efficiency : how many tonnes for how many fish.
ship damage crew casualties.


importance: strategic effect did this attack alter enemy
or freindly Doctrine or tactics. or did it
have prestige value.




Ive been trying to shape up the final criterions but am struggling as
fitting into five or six changes shape of catagories.
any suggestions here.

MM

[CCIP]

Alright, you score it!

U-124 vs HMS Dunedin

24 November 1941

Approach : + Lone ship spotted and identified visually from long range. Approach mostly submerged despite high-speed manuevers by cruiser. The boat was reportedly experienceing problems with depth-keeping, but kept under control by crew. Seas were relatively choppy.

- Periscope was detected by cruiser, but without any direct result. Cruiser's manuevering ultimately placed boat in unfavourable attack position.


execution : ++ Attacked at the last moment with 3-torpedo spread from over 4000m range. Despite very narrow target profile, cruiser's speed of 17kt, and constant manuevering, two fish hit after 5 minutes running and sunk the cruiser.

-none, other than a lot of luck involved


Efficiency : + 3 torpedoes on initial attack, 2 hits from very long range;
4,850t and 419 men KIA.

- one more torpedo spent after the first two hits as the cruiser was sinking, missed


importance: + Took place two days after the loss of the raider/supply ship Atlantis in the same operations area to a British cruiser, and a week before the loss of supply ship Python in a similar way. Payback for the sinkings, symbolically important and forced british to be more cautious in the area.
One of the largest and fastest warship kills by a U-boat.

-- Ultimately not of high strategic importance. Failed to do anything to stop the British from defeating the operations of German raiders in the South Atlantic.

:hmm:

[Mush Martin]

Thats it Difficulty is the missing catagory

I had thought that we had already touched on dunedin?

maybe on a different thread?

ill look later.

Thanks ccip

MM

[Mush Martin]

Well scored though and I like the way youve presented it in format so to
speak youre showing us the way.
MM

[Mush Martin]

Final Catagories are

Approach : Discipline to achieve good position.
flexability of postion for engage disengage
difficulty of position achievement.


execution : was it a well planned approach with a
clean execution. or a good snapshot
improvisation
(this one may be hard to score lets debate it once more)


Efficiency : how many tonnes for how many fish.
ship damage crew casualties.

Difficulty : what were the factors that distinguish this shot
from the average.

importance: strategic effect did this attack alter enemy
or freindly Doctrine or tactics. or did it
have prestige value.

Dash: because Fortune favors the bold.

I will still review serious objections on this criterion.

MM

[leeclose]

Screenies of afore mentioned ships/subs and any relevant technical data for afore mentioned ship/sub being the sinkee and the sinker:up:

[Mush Martin]

I readded dash to the list above.

MM

[Mush Martin]

royal oak
Empress of Britain.
Shinano
laconia
Athenia
Dunedin
Wasp
Ark royal
Indianapolis
Yorktown
Barbs train raid
[edit] forgot wilhelm gustloff oops.

[Mush Martin]

Much as it is stylish and shows quite a bit of dash I think that
barbs train raid is in a different catagory than sinkings.

We seem to be still short a few I was strolling through UK subs this afternoon
for possibles I didnt find a british one yet they seem to have conducted a campaign of steady chipping 4000 tons at a time. they seem to have had
a lot of hits and damages on larger ships but not many sunks.
what did stand out was that the Brits sure did sink an awful lot of
other subs with their own subs.

will keep looking but we need some more entrants and more international ones.

[leeclose]

Yup the RN as early as 1939 saw the potential of Subs as great anti sub platforms now lookwhere we are 68 years later funny ole world huh.:up:

[Mush Martin]

Actually that goes as far back as the WWI R Class precursor to the
hunter killers of the twentieth century.
MM

[Kapitan_Phillips]

The Athenia by Lemp

[Mush Martin]

The Athenia by Lemp

Athenia as the official Kickoff of the Battle of the atlantic
some three hours after the declaration of war is already
in.
got any others Kap?

MM

[Kapitan_Phillips]

No, not really. Not by a sub at least.

I was going to say U-615 vs. the Aircraft, but its by sub only :hmm:

[Mush Martin]

No, not really. Not by a sub at least.

I was going to say U-615 vs. the Aircraft, but its by sub only :hmm:

Think it over we still seem limited to German US and Japanese attacks
and surely we should spread our nets wider oh and of course one
russian attack.

MM

[Linton]

I nominate Wanklyn V.C. for his action against a convoy with numerous technicl difficulties.
http://www.submariners.co.uk/VC_Winners/wanklyn.htm

[Linton]

I would also like to nominate "Crap Miers" V.C. for this action:
http://www.submariners.co.uk/VC_Winners/miers.htm

[Mush Martin]

A Good nomination it catches what I meant about Dash
he also showed a good deal of Sange Froid.

I dont know about strategic effect but otherwise a fair candidate.

am interested in the details of the ships in the convoy he hit
or the later two troop transports I had been looking yesterday
for Brit candidates and hadnt found any yet.

[Mush Martin]

I would also like to nominate "Crap Miers" V.C. for this action:
http://www.submariners.co.uk/VC_Winners/miers.htm

Also promising do you have any knowledge of a more detailed acct
for either of your submissions?

Im gone for the day now!

MM

[leeclose]

Hey Linto good call on both those mate would be really intrested to see more in depth info/story ya know what were like more is better:up:

[Linton]

Wanklyn:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_David_Wanklyn
definetly worth the VC for that action.
See also Hero of the Upholder by Jim Allaway

[Linton]

Miers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Miers
Also see Submarine Torbay by Paul Chapman
Two very different actions both by very brave men!

[Prof]

My first thoughts were IJN Shinano, HMS Royal Oak and USS Indianapolis, but those have already been mentioned.

Then I remembered the sinking of U-864 by HMS Venturer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterseeboot_864

The only time in history a submerged submarine has sunk another submerged submarine :) Pretty impressive attack, too, going by the description on the Wikipedia page.

[Mush Martin]

Wanklyn:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_David_Wanklyn
definetly worth the VC for that action.
See also Hero of the Upholder by Jim Allaway

I had thought I had touched on upholder yesterday but in rereading
it I see I failed to mention it.

[Mush Martin]

Miers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Miers
Also see Submarine Torbay by Paul Chapman
Two very different actions both by very brave men!

As I recall chapman had been pursuing another more valuable convoy
that got away and these were left to him is that correct?
[edit] looked again after work it lacks details but is alluded to
in this brief article. The Pursuit of the previous convoy
was where he showed the most Elan I thought.

[Mush Martin]

My first thoughts were IJN Shinano, HMS Royal Oak and USS Indianapolis, but those have already been mentioned.

Then I remembered the sinking of U-864 by HMS Venturer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterseeboot_864

The only time in history a submerged submarine has sunk another submerged submarine :) Pretty impressive attack, too, going by the description on the Wikipedia page.

this one should have always been on the list First is First.
just like athenia.

MM

[leeclose]

I have to say were getting some great storys here guys keep em up who needs a history class come to one of mush's threads:yep:

[Mush Martin]

Many I am sure would argue that my biggest thread has little or nothing
to do with history

Other than maybe making it in sh3:rotfl:

[leeclose]

Yup but its all good and intresting fun and if any one complains were sending bernard round there house to cook for em:yep:

[Mush Martin]

Yes dont let it be said I dont have a love of historical accuracy I do

I totally admire the Puritan Lobby theres is a necessary and vital
function that clearly supports my argument that what we do
here is work on living history unlike any books films or lectures
could deliver.

on the other hand :arrgh!: I am not above a little cheating at naval
warfare I was British born and it is the english way.

[leeclose]

Well i'm Scottish and were really good at it:yep: :yep: :yep:

[Mush Martin]

well were still a little short we have ten plus but a few more
wont hurt.

I think what Ill do is I am going to asseble a short briefing for
each engagement listed and when I put up the voting poll
each will have a description that way for those voters
not familiar with all.

that could take sometime anyway as I have someother things
on the go this weekend but it will provide a little time for
later entries.

MM

[leeclose]

Sounds good mush i'm voting for the flying dutchman oops wrong ship:rotfl:

[Linton]

Chapman was the jimmy of Miers boat Torbay at the time and went on to command his own boat.Miers was well known for his colourful language hence the nickname gamp/crap.
May I suggest Submariners V.C.by Sir William Jameson.An excellent read and it has a chapter on each recipient.

[Jimbuna]

My first thoughts were IJN Shinano, HMS Royal Oak and USS Indianapolis, but those have already been mentioned.

Then I remembered the sinking of U-864 by HMS Venturer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterseeboot_864

The only time in history a submerged submarine has sunk another submerged submarine :) Pretty impressive attack, too, going by the description on the Wikipedia page.

That was definitely a first and IIRC 'a one off' :up: :arrgh!:

[leeclose]

DEffinatly a good encounter espesh as neither crews at that point had any ASW training at all :up:

[Shaffer4]

I was Just reading the thread Crab Walk where they are talking about
the sinking of Wilhelm Gustloff.

Many or assumably most of us are familiar with the worst sinking of the war

But my question is what are the top ten sinkings of the war.

list some nominees and we will put up a poll.

arguments should be supported with info.
So post a blurb on the sinking your nominating.

MM:|\\


Watching History's Myteries on the History Channel about the sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff. I'd say it definately falls under high contention for one of the top sinkings. I dunno about Dash (or Audacity) but they talk about the S-13 (russian sub) floating amidst the survivors while trying to push the 4th Torp which got stuck halfway out of the tube back in.

He also went on to sink the Steuben, a Hospital Ship with 4300 German Soldiers on her.

the patrol accounting for the greatest loss of life at sea, over 14,000 people :o

The Sub captain wound up rather scorned as he didn't fit the Communist Ideal of perfection (basically a stereotypical Salty Dog..). He went to prison in 1946 for allowing a friend to take bricks from a construction site.

[Jimbuna]

He went to prison in 1946 for allowing a friend to take bricks from a construction site.

A bit of poetic justice there....even if a little dilluted :yep:

[Mush Martin]

It was a conversation about the sinking of
Gustlaff that sort of inspired this thread
Im glad to see its been picked back up
I felt we didnt have enough entrants yet
for a fair review.

MM

[Shaffer4]

He went to prison in 1946 for allowing a friend to take bricks from a construction site.
A bit of poetic justice there....even if a little dilluted :yep:

Stalin was probably just jealous... :doh:

[Jimbuna]

He went to prison in 1946 for allowing a friend to take bricks from a construction site.
A bit of poetic justice there....even if a little dilluted :yep:

Stalin was probably just jealous... :doh:

Stalin just didn't want any opposition to his ideals :arrgh!:

[Mush Martin]

stalin had a higher career score but maybe it was professional jealousy
after all it was a better single hour than stalin ever did the old fashioned
way.

It is remarkable how well the russians did considering the shape
of there instituitional knowledge after the purges.

the soviet/russian peoples are a great people as I have learned over
a few decades of studying the war.

They suffered much by the enemy and much by their own
leadership.

Regarding the thread I think that as I am trying to reduce the number
of projects Im doing and as I havent really gotten a new entrant
in the last two days that I will leave it for one last day for late entries
and then I will assemble the poll for voting tommorow.

MM


In light of recent experience I would gladly take some advice on which is
the best thread to post the poll itself on.

[leeclose]

Some people have all the luck LMAO:rotfl:

[Mush Martin]

Chapman was the jimmy of Miers boat Torbay at the time and went on to command his own boat.Miers was well known for his colourful language hence the nickname gamp/crap.
May I suggest Submariners V.C.by Sir William Jameson.An excellent read and it has a chapter on each recipient.

By the by Linton Ill thank you for the recommendation
it sounds like it should have been in my collection already
but of course it isnt yet.

thanks for the tip
MM:up: