Crab Walk

[Heibges]

I was just reading Crab Walk by Gunter Grass. It's about sinking of the Wilhelm Gustoff by the Russians in 1945.

Very good.

[bigboywooly]

Ah the greatest ship sinking disaster

:nope:
Some sources put the figure as high as 10,000 + on board

The ships webbie here
http://www.wilhelmgustloff.com/

[cobalt]

that sub commander also sank a hospitol ship later in the war, and was awarded hero of the soviet union. What a *****

[OuNiS]

that sub commander also sank a hospitol ship later in the war, and was awarded hero of the soviet union. What a *****

Yes, it was captain Marinescu. Soviet goverment rejected German request to abide regarding the immunity of hospital ships.

It was bloody war...

[Jimbuna]

A real tragedy that sadly was never recognised by the soviets :nope:

[Foghladh_mhara]

that sub commander also sank a hospitol ship later in the war, and was awarded hero of the soviet union. What a *****
Easy to get carried away i suppose. Look at Morton in Wahoo. He got a navy cross for doing something that would have had him standing in Nuremburg had he been on the other side

[OuNiS]

that sub commander also sank a hospitol ship later in the war, and was awarded hero of the soviet union. What a ***** Easy to get carried away i suppose. Look at Morton in Wahoo. He got a navy cross for doing something that would have had him standing in Nuremburg had he been on the other side

That's true but USA, Soviet Union and other allies won WWII.

[Mush Martin]

I suppose though we should consider the Pshycology and Disposition of
the Soviet Peoples of the time from their perspective they were not
convinced of the Conduct of the Germans and of course Barbarossa
had engendered bitter hatred.

I Wonder if we all under such circumsances as they were under would
still retain our morale compunctions or as men of action both direct
and indirect would we see it as an expediency and justify it to
ourselves.:hmm:

[Slick Rick]

Where is the heroics in sinking a hospital ship? Atrocities were not reserved for one side however.....:nope: :nope:

[Mush Martin]

that sub commander also sank a hospitol ship later in the war, and was awarded hero of the soviet union. What a ***** Easy to get carried away i suppose. Look at Morton in Wahoo. He got a navy cross for doing something that would have had him standing in Nuremburg had he been on the other side

As I said on the other thread about Dudley W (Mush) Morton
Maybe the only people involved that understood what he was
doing were the Japanese soldiers in the water. Of all who have
visited the issues over the years that have advocated on their
behalf I believe only the Japanese in the water understood what
he was doing and I dont believe they would have percieved it
as a crime.

[Mush Martin]

Where is the heroics in sinking a hospital ship? Atrocities were not reserved for one side however.....:nope: :nope:
In true and Grimmer terms warfare isnt about heroics its about
winning by any means.

[Foghladh_mhara]

As I said on the other thread about Dudley W (Mush) Morton
Maybe the only people involved that understood what he was
doing were the Japanese soldiers in the water. Of all who have
visited the issues over the years that have advocated on their
behalf I believe only the Japanese in the water understood what
he was doing and I dont believe they would have percieved it
as a crime.

Oh please!! I can very well understand getting carried away in the heat of battle but to claim the poor bastards killed in the water would understand is a bit daft.

[Mush Martin]

I disagree they would have willingly done it to the americans given a chance.

[Foghladh_mhara]

I disagree they would have willingly done it to the americans given a chance.
And you know this to be true? How about the Indian PoW's in the water with them? Would they have understood as well?

[Slick Rick]

After reading a bit further on the site...It is apparent that the Gustoff was used as a troop carrier at one point as well as a hospital ship and even as a floating barracks for sailors....so it is possible the Soviet skipper did not realize it was full of refugees.....I guess.....the ship did not carry hospital ship markings at the time of her sinking...... War....Is an atrocity....

[Mush Martin]

I disagree they would have willingly done it to the americans given a chance. And you know this to be true? How about the Indian PoW's in the water with them? Would they have understood as well?

I didnt declare it as fact I offered it as speculative and in direct answer
no I dont recall mentioning anything of the POW's

[Mush Martin]

Either way this debate isnt what this thread is about it should be taken up
on the Dudley W Mush Morton thread

[Foghladh_mhara]

I disagree they would have willingly done it to the americans given a chance.
Doesn't sound very speculative to me:D

[joea]

I disagree they would have willingly done it to the americans given a chance. And you know this to be true? How about the Indian PoW's in the water with them? Would they have understood as well?

Plenty of incidents to show the Japanese did do that sort of thing, that said no justification for this (at least he could have spared the Indian POWs), or probably the Wilhelm Gustoff (though I am not certain the Soviets knew what the ship was carrying).

I do get a little fed up with moral equivalence given by some to Axis and Allies, and I am also fed up with refusal to recognise all nations play the "bad guy" at some point. Example, Germany wanted to do to the USSR and Eastenr Europe (in a planned way) what Spain, England and France did to the Americas. Indians sometimes scalped and massacred whole settler familes but it was their land invaded.

More fuel for the fire.

[Mush Martin]

No its not more fuel for the fire

It is not nations, Not American not British , not Geman japanese Russian
or chinese not Zulus not any nation that is ruthless.

its Humans

it just seems that with nations as with individuals
we have a hard time acknowledging our own flaws.

with nations as with individuals we have a propensity
for hypocrisy quite often and frequently show a willingness
to overlook our own transgressions.

this is the kind of thing that justifies war.
how Harris and Lemay were able to lay
waste on Europe and Japan after Rotterdam.

one strike wether or not it was recalled
by fourteen bombers justified an awful lot.
We do it too.

now thats more fuel for the fire.

[Foghladh_mhara]

Maybe we're victims of our own propaganda? WW2 was fed to the british and american people as the struggle of democracy against evil fascism. The allies stood for all that was good the axis powers for all that was arrogant and bad. Even in todays context the words allies and axis have certain connotations. I AM NOT HOWEVER SAYING THAT FASCISM WAS GOOD OR THAT EVIL WAS NOT DONE!!! Every book I ever read as a kid reinforced the belief that the allies were the good guys. It can be a bit unpalatable to find out then as Mush Martin points out that the good guys were not immune to a bit of carpet bombing or in the case of Wahoo the shooting of people in the water.

[bigboywooly]

Back to topic lol

This pic is 39/40 and you can see what looks like the red cross on the funnel of the liner
Lazarettschiff D

http://www.wilhelmgustloff.com/images/Gallery/Photos/mp_ld.jpg

[Heibges]

The sad part of the book, is that for a long time the Germans were not allowed to grieve over the horrors they endured.

Curtis LeMay was a big fat head, who did everything he did for job security.

As opposed to Hyman Rickover who did everything he did to protect his country.

[joea]

The sad part of the book, is that for a long time the Germans were not allowed to grieve over the horrors they endured.

Curtis LeMay was a big fat head, who did everything he did for job security.

As opposed to Hyman Rickover who did everything he did to protect his country.

I agree it was sad, respect to Rickover.

[Kaleu_Mihoo]

Back to topic lol

This pic is 39/40 and you can see what looks like the red cross on the funnel of the liner
Lazarettschiff D

http://www.wilhelmgustloff.com/images/Gallery/Photos/mp_ld.jpg

you're right about it, but later it was painted in standard german grey (like an ordinary transport) without any red cross markings. So Marinesko couldn't recognize it as a hospital ship, especially by night attack. Sad but true, but this has nothing to do with war crimes etc.

greets

[bigboywooly]

Thanx Kaleu
Not managed to find a pic from late war yet

Guessed it didnt stay that way for long as was a troopship