No military solution to Iraq, U.S. general says

[Happy Times]

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/03/08/iraq.petraeus/index.html

[SUBMAN1]

Tell us something we all don't already know? AMzaing how an article like this can be front page news. THe military is simply the enforcer. The public are the people that must shape their country.

-S

[AVGWarhawk]

Tell us something we all don't already know? AMzaing how an article like this can be front page news. THe military is simply the enforcer. The public are the people that must shape their country.

-S

You are right, the people in Iraq need to want this to end. Not to start a negative thread but Iraq has become dependent on military forces and not much else. Just my opinion!

[Iceman]

Kinda like Morgan Freeman in Shawshank Redemption....being in prision for most of his life he states he can't even squeeze a drop of pee until some one tells him it is ok to do so....I would think much of the same here...after being Ruled and Dictated to for so long what to buy etc etc...sounds like communisim...Iraqis I'm sure will need lots of help for a long time to come if they are to succeed as a Democratic Nation..."WE" as "Free" nations....um hum...will face the judgement before God if we abandon them now in the hour of need....and woe to any others who do so out of selfishness and sloth.

Proverbs 3
[27] Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it.
[28] Say not unto thy neighbour, Go, and come again, and to morrow I will give; when thou hast it by thee.

Peace

[AVGWarhawk]

@Ice

I do not believe in abandoning. God helps those that help themselves. The Iraqi need to help themselves.....with our assistance.

[SUBMAN1]

@Ice

I do not believe in abandoning. God helps those that help themselves. The Iraqi need to help themselves.....with our assistance.

Well said. You can lead sheep to water, but you cannot make them drink.

-S

[STEED]

Tell us something we all don't already know?

Here,here. :yep:

[AJ!]

I dont think you quite understand the situation over there..... the iraq people are trying as hard as possible to help themselves and get back on their feet but its not as easy a task as you make it sound.... Imagin how hard it must be for civis over there at the moment... Death squads patroling the streets, gunships flying by every few minutes and that thought that a bomb could be waiting outside your front door... Its even worse for the government officials.

the middle east truly is a area gutted by religion :nope:

[AVGWarhawk]

I dont think you quite understand the situation over there..... the iraq people are trying as hard as possible to help themselves and get back on their feet but its not as easy a task as you make it sound.... Imagin how hard it must be for civis over there at the moment... Death squads patroling the streets, gunships flying by every few minutes and that thought that a bomb could be waiting outside your front door... Its even worse for the government officials.

the middle east truly is a area gutted by religion :nope:

Agreed....it is a tough row to hoe!!! It will not happen over night and people need to realize that. Do you realize how rich Iraq can be with all the oil reserves? I understand electricity is free at this point! I believe some Iraqi are just plain scared to do anything and to be honest, I would be scared also. We can not at any point abandon what has been started. Unfortunate that most of the US (I live in the US) do not support this. It is all political here in the states. With exception of Revolutionary War and 911 attacks, the US is been free of military engagements. It is hard for US citizens to understand what the Iraqi are going through because a large majority in the US have not been there or done that.

[waste gate]

I dont think you quite understand the situation over there..... the iraq people are trying as hard as possible to help themselves and get back on their feet but its not as easy a task as you make it sound.... Imagin how hard it must be for civis over there at the moment... Death squads patroling the streets, gunships flying by every few minutes and that thought that a bomb could be waiting outside your front door... Its even worse for the government officials.

the middle east truly is a area gutted by religion :nope:

Agreed....it is a tough row to hoe!!! It will not happen over night and people need to realize that. Do you realize how rich Iraq can be with all the oil reserves? I understand electricity is free at this point! I believe some Iraqi are just plain scared to do anything and to be honest, I would be scared also. We can not at any point abandon what has been started. Unfortunate that most of the US (I live in the US) do not support this. It is all political here in the states. With exception of Revolutionary War and 911 attacks, the US is been free of military engagements. It is hard for US citizens to understand what the Iraqi are going through because a large majority in the US have not been there or done that.

Civil War 1861-1865. I realize that was long ago, but since I consider it a defining time for the US I had to remind everyone.

[AVGWarhawk]

I dont think you quite understand the situation over there..... the iraq people are trying as hard as possible to help themselves and get back on their feet but its not as easy a task as you make it sound.... Imagin how hard it must be for civis over there at the moment... Death squads patroling the streets, gunships flying by every few minutes and that thought that a bomb could be waiting outside your front door... Its even worse for the government officials.

the middle east truly is a area gutted by religion :nope:
Agreed....it is a tough row to hoe!!! It will not happen over night and people need to realize that. Do you realize how rich Iraq can be with all the oil reserves? I understand electricity is free at this point! I believe some Iraqi are just plain scared to do anything and to be honest, I would be scared also. We can not at any point abandon what has been started. Unfortunate that most of the US (I live in the US) do not support this. It is all political here in the states. With exception of Revolutionary War and 911 attacks, the US is been free of military engagements. It is hard for US citizens to understand what the Iraqi are going through because a large majority in the US have not been there or done that.
Civil War 1861-1865. I realize that was long ago, but since I consider it a defining time for the US I had to remind everyone.
Good one! My line of thought at the time was foreign invasion. War of 1812 is another....but these are a long time ago and not in the social consious.

[waste gate]

I dont think you quite understand the situation over there..... the iraq people are trying as hard as possible to help themselves and get back on their feet but its not as easy a task as you make it sound.... Imagin how hard it must be for civis over there at the moment... Death squads patroling the streets, gunships flying by every few minutes and that thought that a bomb could be waiting outside your front door... Its even worse for the government officials.

the middle east truly is a area gutted by religion :nope:
Agreed....it is a tough row to hoe!!! It will not happen over night and people need to realize that. Do you realize how rich Iraq can be with all the oil reserves? I understand electricity is free at this point! I believe some Iraqi are just plain scared to do anything and to be honest, I would be scared also. We can not at any point abandon what has been started. Unfortunate that most of the US (I live in the US) do not support this. It is all political here in the states. With exception of Revolutionary War and 911 attacks, the US is been free of military engagements. It is hard for US citizens to understand what the Iraqi are going through because a large majority in the US have not been there or done that.
Civil War 1861-1865. I realize that was long ago, but since I consider it a defining time for the US I had to remind everyone.
Good one! My line of thought at the time was foreign invasion. War of 1812 is another....but these are a long time ago and not in the social consious.

Agreed. But many lessons can be learned from these past engagements. Unfortunate that some cannot see beyond their own petty political landscape.

[AVGWarhawk]

I dont think you quite understand the situation over there..... the iraq people are trying as hard as possible to help themselves and get back on their feet but its not as easy a task as you make it sound.... Imagin how hard it must be for civis over there at the moment... Death squads patroling the streets, gunships flying by every few minutes and that thought that a bomb could be waiting outside your front door... Its even worse for the government officials.

the middle east truly is a area gutted by religion :nope:
Agreed....it is a tough row to hoe!!! It will not happen over night and people need to realize that. Do you realize how rich Iraq can be with all the oil reserves? I understand electricity is free at this point! I believe some Iraqi are just plain scared to do anything and to be honest, I would be scared also. We can not at any point abandon what has been started. Unfortunate that most of the US (I live in the US) do not support this. It is all political here in the states. With exception of Revolutionary War and 911 attacks, the US is been free of military engagements. It is hard for US citizens to understand what the Iraqi are going through because a large majority in the US have not been there or done that.
Civil War 1861-1865. I realize that was long ago, but since I consider it a defining time for the US I had to remind everyone.
Good one! My line of thought at the time was foreign invasion. War of 1812 is another....but these are a long time ago and not in the social consious.
Agreed. But many lessons can be learned from these past engagements. Unfortunate that some cannot see beyond their own petty political landscape.

Learn from these engagements? Are you kidding? Anything kids learn today they learned at the mall or the latest Disney flick?:rotfl::rotfl: Actually my eight year old was going over her history quiz for this week and it was about the the war of 1812.:up:

[waste gate]

I dont think you quite understand the situation over there..... the iraq people are trying as hard as possible to help themselves and get back on their feet but its not as easy a task as you make it sound.... Imagin how hard it must be for civis over there at the moment... Death squads patroling the streets, gunships flying by every few minutes and that thought that a bomb could be waiting outside your front door... Its even worse for the government officials.

the middle east truly is a area gutted by religion :nope:
Agreed....it is a tough row to hoe!!! It will not happen over night and people need to realize that. Do you realize how rich Iraq can be with all the oil reserves? I understand electricity is free at this point! I believe some Iraqi are just plain scared to do anything and to be honest, I would be scared also. We can not at any point abandon what has been started. Unfortunate that most of the US (I live in the US) do not support this. It is all political here in the states. With exception of Revolutionary War and 911 attacks, the US is been free of military engagements. It is hard for US citizens to understand what the Iraqi are going through because a large majority in the US have not been there or done that.
Civil War 1861-1865. I realize that was long ago, but since I consider it a defining time for the US I had to remind everyone.
Good one! My line of thought at the time was foreign invasion. War of 1812 is another....but these are a long time ago and not in the social consious.
Agreed. But many lessons can be learned from these past engagements. Unfortunate that some cannot see beyond their own petty political landscape.

Learn from these engagements? Are you kidding? Anything kids learn today they learned at the mall or the latest Disney flick?:rotfl::rotfl: Actually my eight year old was going over her history quiz for this week and it was about the the war of 1812.:up:

Sounds like she's off to a good start AVGWarhawk!:up:

[IRONxMortlock]

It simply amazes me how well most people are manipulated by the government they supposedly control. The reason for going to Iraq was WMD. It had nothing to do with regime change or "freedom" (thank you GWB for making that word sound entirely hollow now). Yet suddenly when the WMD position turns out to be the lie that it was (it wasn't "faulty intelligence", you were lied to plain and simple) and untenable, the reasoning changes. Even before the WMD claim was proven false we were being prepared for the, "we got rid of that crazy dictator" reasoning. Remember when the statue came down and all those jubulent Iraqis dancing and hitting it. Oh yes, that truly demonstrated that we were right all along. Except when you see it from this angle.
http://recollectionbooks.com/bleed/images/war/saddamStatueMed.jpg

And the manipulation and perception management didn't stop there. We've been through them all now yet people keep swallowing them one after another with a what appears to be a goldfish like, two month memory span.

How to start towards fixing Iraq?

Firstly admit that the invasion was a war crime of the highest order. We all chat about these great concepts of freedom and democracy yet we seem singularly unable to comprehend the enormity of this crime. By the most conservative estimates over 50,000 innocent people have died. Imagine what the feeling on the American street would be like if 50,000 innocent American civilians had been killed by a foreign power. Someone would be getting nuked. Once the crime is acknowledged justice must be served by putting those who are responsible for orchestrating and starting this war on trial. We need to show the Iraqi people that we are sincerely sorry for what happened and then work with the entire world to build up their infrastructure while working with whatever political system emerges from their civil war.

That just isn't going to happen though is it?

Why do we continue to believe our governments have our best interests at heart when history proves how they have lied to us again and again and again? In the 60s and 70s three million Vietnamese paid with their lives for the myth that communism was going to take over the world. They won, America and its small group of allies pulled out and the dominoes didn't fall. Now we're supposed to believe the same rubbish but this time communist has been replaced with terrorist. How stupid do they think we are? Why the hell do we never call these power hungry sociopaths in charge to account?

Because there wouldn't be McDonald's without McDonald Douglas.

Unfortunately, Iraq is just the symptom of a wider geopolitical struggle for the Earth's resources to be dominated and controlled by the few. Ever since there has been state based political systems this has been the case. This might sound like I'm just blaming America but I'm not. I'm not naive. I have no doubt that if Germany or China or England or Sealand were in the United States' current position then we'd be observing them doing the same kind of things. Who pulls the strings will continue to change but unless we fundamentally alter our outlook on the world, the wars will not. We have to have a long hard look at where we're going as a species or be prepared for many more and many worse Iraqs to come.

[waste gate]

It simply amazes me how well most people are manipulated by the government they supposedly control. The reason for going to Iraq was WMD. It had nothing to do with regime change or "freedom" (thank you GWB for making that word sound entirely hollow now). Yet suddenly when the WMD position turns out to be the lie that it was (it wasn't "faulty intelligence", you were lied to plain and simple) and untenable, the reasoning changes. Even before the WMD claim was proven false we were being prepared for the, "we got rid of that crazy dictator" reasoning. Remember when the statue came down and all those jubulent Iraqis dancing and hitting it. Oh yes, that truly demonstrated that we were right all along. Except when you see it from this angle.
http://recollectionbooks.com/bleed/images/war/saddamStatueMed.jpg

And the manipulation and perception management didn't stop there. We've been through them all now yet people keep swallowing them one after another with a what appears to be a goldfish like, two month memory span.

How to start towards fixing Iraq?

Firstly admit that the invasion was a war crime of the highest order. We all chat about these great concepts of freedom and democracy yet we seem singularly unable to comprehend the enormity of this crime. By the most conservative estimates over 50,000 innocent people have died. Imagine what the feeling on the American street would be like if 50,000 innocent American civilians had been killed by a foreign power. Someone would be getting nuked. Once the crime is acknowledged justice must be served by putting those who are responsible for orchestrating and starting this war on trial. We need to show the Iraqi people that we are sincerely sorry for what happened and then work with the entire world to build up their infrastructure while working with whatever political system emerges from their civil war.

That just isn't going to happen though is it?

Why do we continue to believe our governments have our best interests at heart when history proves how they have lied to us again and again and again? In the 60s and 70s three million Vietnamese paid with their lives for the myth that communism was going to take over the world. They won, America and its small group of allies pulled out and the dominoes didn't fall. Now we're supposed to believe the same rubbish but this time communist has been replaced with terrorist. How stupid do they think we are? Why the hell do we never call these power hungry sociopaths in charge to account?

Because there wouldn't be McDonald's without McDonald Douglas.

Unfortunately, Iraq is just the symptom of a wider geopolitical struggle for the Earth's resources to be dominated and controlled by the few. Ever since there has been state based political systems this has been the case. This might sound like I'm just blaming America but I'm not. I'm not naive. I have no doubt that if Germany or China or England or Sealand were in the United States' current position then we'd be observing them doing the same kind of things. Who pulls the strings will continue to change but unless we fundamentally alter our outlook on the world, the wars will not. We have to have a long hard look at where we're going as a species or be prepared for many more and many worse Iraqs to come.

The US congress approved the invasion of Iraq based on the same intellegence estimates thst GWB recieved. The House and Senate Intellagence commitees are privy to all the info the Whitehouse is, nothing more nothing less.

BTW its McDonnell-Douglas not McDonald the burger guy.

[baggygreen]

hey mortlock - wouldnt it be more of a war-crime if the allied forces had actually gone out to deliberately kill all those people?? As far as i understand it, the majority of people killed have been killed by iraqis. Who is up for the war crime now?:hmm:

[Heibges]

For pretty much every country that has one it is the defining moment.

Someone mentioned the US Civil War.

It is also true of the Russian Civil War. It definitley had more lasting effects on Russia than the Bolshevik Revolution itself. The United States, France, England, and Japan, all invaded Russia to help the Whites.

The Conflict in Vietnam was a civil war. If you were Vietnamese and supported the South you were basically a supporter of a foreign power. We dropped 30 Times the amount of explosives on Vietnam than we dropped in WWII. I'm sure we could have dropped far fewer amounts on Paris, and gotten them to give Vietnam their independence.

In the United States we had absolutely no mercy for people that supported the British during our own Revolution. These "Tories" were tarred-and-feathered, lynched, and lost all property. Particularly after the Colonials retook Philidelphia.

If it's a civil war, it's gonna get real ugly.

Do you guys remember a few months ago when the head of England's Army said we should just pull out, because their wouldn't be anyone the insurgents would consider worth killing. He stated that all the insurgents are coming to Iraq just because there are lots of GI's and Tommies to kill.

But who I really feel sorry for in Iraq are the Kurds. One way or another they will probably end up getting reamed. Unless or course the United States invades Iran, and sets up a Kurdish State. But then we will probably have to invade Turkey too.

[PeriscopeDepth]

That intelligence was largely a lie of omission by Feith and company.

PD

[waste gate]

That intelligence was largely a lie of omission by Feith and company.

PD

Prove that.

[bradclark1]

He stated that all the insurgents are coming to Iraq just because there are lots of GI's and Tommies to kill.
I'd say there is some truth in that. Not the whole reason but a healthy portion of it.

[PeriscopeDepth]

That intelligence was largely a lie of omission by Feith and company.

PD
Prove that.
http://www.levin.senate.gov/newsroom/supporting/2004/102104inquiryreport.pdf
http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/supporting/2007/DODIG.execsummary.020907.pdf

Hope the Inspector General's full report get's declassified some day. There's no smoking gun, but it's pretty safe to conclude (by which I mean obvious unless you just don't want to believe it) they were cherry picking facts to forward an agenda. Good thing Carl Levin's wife isn't a CIA agent.

PD

[waste gate]

That intelligence was largely a lie of omission by Feith and company.

PD
Prove that.
http://www.levin.senate.gov/newsroom/supporting/2004/102104inquiryreport.pdf
http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/supporting/2007/DODIG.execsummary.020907.pdf

Hope the Inspector General's full report get's declassified some day. There's no smoking gun, but it's pretty safe to conclude (by which I mean obvious unless you just don't want to believe it) they were cherry picking facts to forward an agenda. Good thing Carl Levin's wife isn't a CIA agent.

PD

I opened the first post and it said 'the Alternative Analysis'. Never mind that October 2004 was over a 1.5 years after US troops entered Iraq, and that hindsight is always, always, always 20/20. Certainly you can do better than that.

[PeriscopeDepth]

That intelligence was largely a lie of omission by Feith and company.

PD
Prove that.
http://www.levin.senate.gov/newsroom/supporting/2004/102104inquiryreport.pdf
http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/supporting/2007/DODIG.execsummary.020907.pdf

Hope the Inspector General's full report get's declassified some day. There's no smoking gun, but it's pretty safe to conclude (by which I mean obvious unless you just don't want to believe it) they were cherry picking facts to forward an agenda. Good thing Carl Levin's wife isn't a CIA agent.

PD
I opened the first post and it said 'the Alternative Analysis'. Certainly you can do better than that.

I think you misunderstand. Alternative analysis describes the intelligence produced by Feith's DoD buddys. The document itself is not an 'alternative analysis'.

hindsight is always, always, always 20/20
That's not the point. The point is DoD officials that should not have been involved in intelligence analysis to begin with deliberately misled people by promoting intelligence they knew to be less than solid in an effort to further their own agenda.

Certainly you can do better than that
Certainly you can do better to convince me that these DoD policy makers weren't conniving slime balls?

PD

[waste gate]

You seem to be saying that the US is a military state which makes policy by whim.
As I recall Congress approved the military action in Iraq in October 2002.

House vote: 296-133
Senate vote: 77-23

As I have said B4 intellegence committees for both houses were in agreement and advised the deployments. If the responsibility for war is/was congress's now, then it was then as well.

[PeriscopeDepth]

You seem to be saying that the US is a military state which makes policy by whim. Not at all. These people were all civillians IIRC. DoD does not equal military.

As I recall Congress approved the military action in Iraq in October 2002.

House vote: 296-133
Senate vote: 77-23 Dodging the issue a little, are we? I'm well aware that Congress approved the invasion of Iraq. It's the scum bags at the DoD that played cheerleader that I take issue with.

As I have said B4 intellegence committees for both houses were in agreement and advised the deployments. Yes, but the intelligence these committees had was a product of several high level DoD policy makers promoting an 'alternative intelligence assesment'. One that the real intelligence professionals disputed, or at the very least knew to be less than reliable.

If the responsibility for war is/was congress's now, then it was then as well. I agree with you 110%. The way that Congress has abdicated this responsibility to the executive branch in the latter part of the 20th century is shameful. It doesn't help though when high level DoD officials are told to find reasons to invade a country.

PD

[Iceman]

You guys still...strain at the knat and swallow the camel....who gives a Rats AZZ at this point who did what, and what was on second, I don't know what the hell is on thrid, BS...

Deal with the present situation....Blame who you want but ALL will stand before the Judgement seat and give account of ONES "own" action..or in-actions....

I agree they're are far far far Bigger problems than Iraq if I was a world leader would be trying to solve...World Hunger....Pollution....People playing "wheres waldo" with Nuclear materials....I mean WTF are you guys tripping out on?

If my memory serves me...I think alot of countries were buying the same BS or Bogus Intell...It made me wonder if all the CIA,FBI or whatever other intell communities they're are throughout the free world got they're information from....Wal-Mart Intell one stop shop, I mean crap...come on?

Let's come to grips with reality here a moment...America either leaves or stays...get over it already...if we stay ..and stay I mean that we are asked by a Majority of Iraqi's to help in re-build and security at this point some cashola at least needs to start heading back to banks of countries who are helping...at this point we are hired guns me thinks.....and Hired means getting paid...no shame or greed here seems perfectly reasonable request...what are the alternatives....abandon them...not...for all the known reasons...genocide,civil war and what most cynics believe...all that black gold.

History will judge who did what to whom as it always does...

The reality of todays political and world mentality is really beyond most peoples grasps me thinks....so many big big things going on beyond any one mans control kinda makes ya wonder who's pulling these strings...
http://www.danieloates.com/photos/toys/large/dexter.jpg

Matthew 24
22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

[baggygreen]

Ice, mate, well put - but can you do us a favour n leave out the religious quotes - someone is only gonna get up in arms over it and it'll turn yuk.

I suppose one option for the militaries is to pull out, let everyone kill each other and then come in and crush the few people left standing.... country full of oil and devoid of human life - sweet!!!!!:rock:


Of course, anyone who thinks that that is going to happen is dreaming... If troops were to leave, then things will get worse and as i've said before, you'll have other nations being drawn into it and the price of oil will skyrocket.. but once they've all killed each other we can move back in and mop up, then take ALL the middle easts oil. :rock: :rock:

[Tchocky]

You guys still...strain at the knat and swallow the camel....who gives a Rats AZZ at this point who did what, and what was on second, I don't know what the hell is on thrid, BS...

Deal with the present situation....Blame who you want but ALL will stand before the Judgement seat and give account of ONES "own" action..or in-actions.... It's very important to know who did what, even if no one gives a rat's ass anymore. If the guys responsible for intelligence presentation and gathering were told to come up with reasons for war, if lousy intelligence was being "fixed around" reasons for war, then we have to know who ordered it, and put them away.
This doesn't make the present situation any less important, I don't see the distinction. And I'd prefer to see it done in this life :)

History will judge who did what to whom as it always does... I'm sick of this sentence. Even looking at the discussions on this forum shows me that "history" is subjective and open to hundreds of interpretations. Claiming that "history will judge me", as every leader in trouble seems to do, is a cowardly cop-out.

[geetrue]

History is good for teaching us the people and the leaders of the people how not to make the same mistakes ...
If, history is the truth that is.

For many in Russia and China and North Korea history is not the truth, but only a report of what others think, not what actually happened.

[AVGWarhawk]

We all forgot an important part here guys.....OIL. Iraq is swimming in it. Sure WMD was a cause to go, but I believe OIL was more in the fore front of the minds who decided to go! Your thoughts?:hmm:

[ASWnut101]

I don't know. Oil dosen't seem like a primary driving factor to me. I think that it was just more of acting on the intelligence we had.

[PeriscopeDepth]

We all forgot an important part here guys.....OIL. Iraq is swimming in it. Sure WMD was a cause to go, but I believe OIL was more in the fore front of the minds who decided to go! Your thoughts?:hmm:

Ideology, not oil. A group of people who happened to be in power genuinely believed knocking out Iraq would cause freedom to flower in the MEast.

PD

[waste gate]

We all forgot an important part here guys.....OIL. Iraq is swimming in it. Sure WMD was a cause to go, but I believe OIL was more in the fore front of the minds who decided to go! Your thoughts?:hmm:

Ideology, not oil. A group of people who happened to be in power genuinely believed knocking out Iraq would cause freedom to flower in the MEast.

PD

I think it is much too early to through ME freedom on the scrap heap of history. The US, France, Britain, Germany, Japan, Poland, Russia (still going thru it) and all liberal democracies as we know them today had very tumultous beginnings which lasted many years before 'stabalization' occured.

[PeriscopeDepth]

We all forgot an important part here guys.....OIL. Iraq is swimming in it. Sure WMD was a cause to go, but I believe OIL was more in the fore front of the minds who decided to go! Your thoughts?:hmm:
Ideology, not oil. A group of people who happened to be in power genuinely believed knocking out Iraq would cause freedom to flower in the MEast.

PD
I think it is much too early to through ME freedom on the scrap heap of history. The US, France, Britain, Germany, Japan, Poland, Russia (still going thru it) and all liberal democracies as we know them today had very tumultous beginnings which lasted many years before 'stabalization' occured.

You're right, it certainly could end up working. I personally just don't think it will. And it's not looking good for Russia either lately.

PD

[ASWnut101]

Has the period after any revolution (assisted or non-assisted) ever looked good?

[AVGWarhawk]

Whatever the case, I hope we see it through. It is kind of stupid to go in, turn a country upside down and then wander off like nothing has happened.

[waste gate]

Whatever the case, I hope we see it through. It is kind of stupid to go in, turn a country upside down and then wander off like nothing has happened.

Unfortunately, wandering off as if nothing happened is not a realistic option. Democrats would like us to think that withdrawal would end all the problems. It will not. It will not end US deaths, but instead offer the US homeland and its population up to the slaughter that the leaders of other nations proclaim on an almost daily basis. Cowardice is not a strategy.

[AVGWarhawk]

Whatever the case, I hope we see it through. It is kind of stupid to go in, turn a country upside down and then wander off like nothing has happened.
Unfortunately, wandering off as if nothing happened is not a realistic option. Democrats would like us to think that withdrawal would end all the problems. It will not. It will not end US deaths, but instead offer the US homeland and its population up to the slaughter that the leaders of other nations proclaim on an almost daily basis. Cowardice is not a strategy.

The Dem are just calling to get out so they can win the White House. That picture is pretty simple. True, cowardice, is not a strategy. If some sort of response was not taken after 911 we would have been seen as weak. Most in the country have lost sight of the 911 attacks that helped kickoff the Iraqi invasion.

[bradclark1]

Cowardice is not a strategy.
Well, you could get out of your armchair, put your money where your mouth is and enlist. Or are you a coward?

[bradclark1]

Most in the country have lost sight of the 911 attacks that helped kickoff the Iraqi invasion.
That statement is a prime example of how skewed thinking is. The Afghanistan invasion was the target response to 911. That little forgotten war.

[Tchocky]

Regarding Iraq/9-11, http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0314/p02s01-woiq.html

from a few days before it all started

[waste gate]

Cowardice is not a strategy.
Well, you could get out of your armchair, put your money where your mouth is and enlist. Or are you a coward?

No less a coward than those who didn't enlist after Dec 7, 1941, and yet were the muscle behind the arsenal of democracy. Not all courage is displayed on the battlefield same as cowardice. Courage is in the heart not the rifle. Much like cowardice is in the heart not the vote.

[waste gate]

Most in the country have lost sight of the 911 attacks that helped kickoff the Iraqi invasion.
That statement is a prime example of how skewed thinking is. The Afghanistan invasion was the target response to 911. That little forgotten war.

Why do you feel it is forgotten? B/C the MSM can't report bad news? Remember the old motto, 'if it bleeds it leads'. Not enough blood for them?

[AVGWarhawk]

Cowardice is not a strategy. Well, you could get out of your armchair, put your money where your mouth is and enlist. Or are you a coward?

Age precludes me from enlisting but as luck would have it, the company I work for transports ammo, arms and explosive! For who? The military. Where does it go? Iraq! Along with the helicopter blades and engines. Body armor and tri-walls for the troops. I also pull for General Dynamic specifically the Stryker vehicles. Furthermore, the hummers make there why to Iraq via me. So, I do my part on the home front but more specifically I support our troops!!!!

[ASWnut101]

Age precludes me from enlisting but as luck would have it, the company I work for transports ammo, arms and explosive! For who? The military. Where does it go? Iraq! Along with the helicopter blades and engines. Body armor and tri-walls for the troops. I also pull for General Dynamic specifically the Stryker vehicles. Furthermore, the hummers make there why to Iraq via me. So, I do my part on the home front but more specifically I support our troops!!!!


People like you are what keeps our military the best in the world. You have my sincere thanks!:up: Troops would not live without you. THAT is serving a country.

[waste gate]

Age precludes me from enlisting but as luck would have it, the company I work for transports ammo, arms and explosive! For who? The military. Where does it go? Iraq! Along with the helicopter blades and engines. Body armor and tri-walls for the troops. I also pull for General Dynamic specifically the Stryker vehicles. Furthermore, the hummers make there why to Iraq via me. So, I do my part on the home front but more specifically I support our troops!!!!


People like you are what keeps our military the best in the world. You have my sincere thanks!:up: Troops would not live without you. THAT is serving a country.

I agree with ASWnut101. You, my friend, are one of the unsung heroes.

[bradclark1]

Age precludes me from enlisting but as luck would have it, the company I work for transports ammo, arms and explosive! For who? The military. Where does it go? Iraq! Along with the helicopter blades and engines. Body armor and tri-walls for the troops. I also pull for General Dynamic specifically the Stryker vehicles. Furthermore, the hummers make there why to Iraq via me. So, I do my part on the home front but more specifically I support our troops!!!!
AVGWarhawk, that comment was directed at Waste Gate and Waste Gate only.

[waste gate]

Age precludes me from enlisting but as luck would have it, the company I work for transports ammo, arms and explosive! For who? The military. Where does it go? Iraq! Along with the helicopter blades and engines. Body armor and tri-walls for the troops. I also pull for General Dynamic specifically the Stryker vehicles. Furthermore, the hummers make there why to Iraq via me. So, I do my part on the home front but more specifically I support our troops!!!!
AVGWarhawk, that comment was directed at Waste Gate and Waste Gate only.

And I answered. AVGWarhawk, gave you the focus you needed.

[bradclark1]

Cowardice is not a strategy.
Well, you could get out of your armchair, put your money where your mouth is and enlist. Or are you a coward?

No less a coward than those who didn't enlist after Dec 7, 1941, and yet were the muscle behind the arsenal of democracy. Not all courage is displayed on the battlefield same as cowardice. Courage is in the heart not the rifle. Much like cowardice is in the heart not the vote.
I didn't expect an answer and you didn't give one.

It's as simple as this. One small armed force and two large problems.
You can deal with two problems half a$$ed and loose ground and ultimately loose both battles which is happening in both Afghanistan and Iraq, or you can consolidate and cleanse one. All this posturing and bravado you dislay can't hide that fact and ignoring it doesn't make it go away as distasteful as it is.
Which one do you choose:
Afghanistan - Initial target, Taliban and poppy trade.
Iraq - Civil war, insurgency/terrorism operations from both religious sides.

To me the logical choice is Afghanistan. Leave a training and advisory cadre in Iraq and shift your force to Afghanistan.

[Tchocky]

Promtped by bradclark's post, does anybody think that a force reduction from Iraq would be countered by a troop increase in Afghanistan?

[waste gate]

Cowardice is not a strategy.
Well, you could get out of your armchair, put your money where your mouth is and enlist. Or are you a coward?

No less a coward than those who didn't enlist after Dec 7, 1941, and yet were the muscle behind the arsenal of democracy. Not all courage is displayed on the battlefield same as cowardice. Courage is in the heart not the rifle. Much like cowardice is in the heart not the vote.
I didn't expect an answer and you didn't give one.

It's as simple as this. One small armed force and two large problems.
You can deal with two problems half a$$ed and loose ground and ultimately loose both battles which is happening in both Afghanistan and Iraq, or you can consolidate and cleanse one. All this posturing and bravado you dislay can't hide that fact and ignoring it doesn't make it go away as distasteful as it is.
Which one do you choose:
Afghanistan - Initial target, Taliban and poppy trade.
Iraq - Civil war, insurgency/terrorism operations from both religious sides.

To me the logical choice is Afghanistan. Leave a training and advisory cadre in Iraq and shift your force to Afghanistan.

Lets review. This was your question:
Well, you could get out of your armchair, put your money where your mouth is and enlist. Or are you a coward?

This was my answer:
No less a coward than those who didn't enlist after Dec 7, 1941, and yet were the muscle behind the arsenal of democracy. Not all courage is displayed on the battlefield same as cowardice. Courage is in the heart not the rifle. Much like cowardice is in the heart not the vote.

I can't be the judge as to how you like the answer. That is my answer. So as you can see I answered the question. Like it or not.

[bradclark1]

Lets review. This was your question:
Well, you could get out of your armchair, put your money where your mouth is and enlist. Or are you a coward?

This was my answer:
No less a coward than those who didn't enlist after Dec 7, 1941, and yet were the muscle behind the arsenal of democracy. Not all courage is displayed on the battlefield same as cowardice. Courage is in the heart not the rifle. Much like cowardice is in the heart not the vote.

I can't be the judge as to how you like the answer. That is my answer. So as you can see I answered the question. Like it or not.
Muscle behind the arsenal infers action of some sort so what action are you doing to support the effort?

[waste gate]

Lets review. This was your question:
Well, you could get out of your armchair, put your money where your mouth is and enlist. Or are you a coward?

This was my answer:
No less a coward than those who didn't enlist after Dec 7, 1941, and yet were the muscle behind the arsenal of democracy. Not all courage is displayed on the battlefield same as cowardice. Courage is in the heart not the rifle. Much like cowardice is in the heart not the vote.

I can't be the judge as to how you like the answer. That is my answer. So as you can see I answered the question. Like it or not.
Muscle behind the arsenal infers action of some sort so what action are you doing to support the effort?

Certainly no less than you. Unless you include the belief in optimisim as to the efforts of the US and a willingnes to help on the home front. You seem to lack that. You are a doom and gloom guy. Its a wonder you are able to drag yourself out of bed in the morning.

[Tchocky]

I support them more!

No, I do!

*pointless*

[geetrue]

To Students of psychology:

Notice that when wastegate and bradclark1 go at it with each other ...
that they don't use smiley's ... :hmm:

[ASWnut101]

Nice Observation:lol:

[bradclark1]

Certainly no less than you. Unless you include the belief in optimisim as to the efforts of the US and a willingnes to help on the home front. You seem to lack that.
No, I served my country to the point that I couldn't and can't serve anymore. Ignoring reality isn't optimism.

You are a doom and gloom guy. Its a wonder you are able to drag yourself out of bed in the morning.
No again. I'm a realist. You choose to ignore the truth because it's ugly and the choices are ugly but they have to be made.

[waste gate]

Certainly no less than you. Unless you include the belief in optimisim as to the efforts of the US and a willingnes to help on the home front. You seem to lack that.
No, I served my country to the point that I couldn't and can't serve anymore. Ignoring reality isn't optimism.

You are a doom and gloom guy. Its a wonder you are able to drag yourself out of bed in the morning.
No again. I'm a realist. You choose to ignore the truth because it's ugly and the choices are ugly but they have to be made.

I ignore nothing. I just choose to believe that it can and will be better instead of being mired down in the tread of other people's pessimism.

You are on the same course of another from this board who seems to think that the only way to serve your country is thru military service. That isn't tue and you know it. That opinion not only belittles AVGWarhawk, a member here, but also the work of the following US citizens who did not sere in the military, but certainly contributed to past war efforts.

Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Franklin
John Quincy Adams
Abraham Lincoln
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Every signitor to the Consitution of the United States.

So if you consider these people as ignoring the truth then I will stand with them thank you very much!

[AVGWarhawk]

Age precludes me from enlisting but as luck would have it, the company I work for transports ammo, arms and explosive! For who? The military. Where does it go? Iraq! Along with the helicopter blades and engines. Body armor and tri-walls for the troops. I also pull for General Dynamic specifically the Stryker vehicles. Furthermore, the hummers make there why to Iraq via me. So, I do my part on the home front but more specifically I support our troops!!!!
AVGWarhawk, that comment was directed at Waste Gate and Waste Gate only.

And I answered. AVGWarhawk, gave you the focus you needed.

Guys, first of all thanks for the vote of confidence and I really do enjoy getting the troops the ammo/arms and other things that go bang! (believe me, we move some crap that really goes BANG!) May drivers are top notch! Many are Viet Nam vets who have their kids serving in Iraq. These drivers enjoy doing this a much as I do. It is their way to show support to the troops and their kids fighting it out there in Iraq. Most have painted their trucks with huge American flags and show a lot of pride in America and the troops. We are all government security cleared to move ammo/explosive, as well as, secret material. Trust me, there are over 100 shipments a day moving through/in or out of the country. You would be amazed at what we transport. At any rate, I was not attempting to ruffle any feathers. I was pointing out that those that can not join up and fight the good fight have other ways to show support. This is what I do and I also send out emails on the sites that allow me too. I tell them my family is behind them all the way!!!! Let face it, it is not fun and it is really not fun if your support system is not their. I, for one, are glad we have the troops we do. When I meet one of our troops I thank them and shake their hand.

Again, not ruffling feathers, just stating that I'm Rosie the Riveter for the war in Iraq:yep:

Here is the company I work for. http://www.landstar.com/Services/AandE.html


My job does not stop there. I also transport for the Belgium Military as well as the Netherland Military that are based here in the US. I send plenty of sidewinders to the Belgium pilots stationed at Andrews AFB. Some sidewinder inert and some very active! The fellow I work with from Belgium, Dirk Van Loon, is a great guy and great to work with! In essence, the US is not alone in this. Other countries are in it with us and I'm glad they are. If the people in Belgium and the Netherlands are anything like the guys I work with here in the states, they are awesome people in my view. I'm glad to have them as Allies.

I also transport for Northrop Grumman who is still very active in fighter development. These folks also require secured services for the new developments. In your day to day, much goes on that know one knows about except for a select few. Nothing like moving an amiphibious General Dynamic tank under cover with armed Marines in the middle of the night while America sleeps soundly. Hell, two years ago me and 4 teams of drivers gave up our Christmas to move tanks for the military. We were glad to do it!!!!

[bradclark1]

I ignore nothing. I just choose to believe that it can and will be better instead of being mired down in the tread of other people's pessimism.
Wishing doesn't win anything.
You are on the same course of another from this board who seems to think that the only way to serve your country is thru military service. That isn't tue and you know it. That opinion not only belittles AVGWarhawk, a member here, but also the work of the following US citizens who did not sere in the military, but certainly contributed to past war efforts.
That remark was aimed squarely at you for the below sanctimonious rhetoric as I said earlier so don't try dragging anyone else into it.
Unfortunately, wandering off as if nothing happened is not a realistic option. Democrats would like us to think that withdrawal would end all the problems. It will not. It will not end US deaths, but instead offer the US homeland and its population up to the slaughter that the leaders of other nations proclaim on an almost daily basis. Cowardice is not a strategy.

So if you consider these people as ignoring the truth then I will stand with them thank you very much!
First, those men served their country. That's a dead subject anyway. Second, you've tripped again. There is a disconnect here. The truth you ignore is the realities of Iraq and Afghanistan. The truth is that ugly choices have to be made. We have the best military in the world but they are set up for failure because of manpower. Our military is not big enough to handle both countries. It was never designed to occupy two countries. We are going backwards not forward. To succeed we need another 300,000 and I don't see that happening.

[Onkel Neal]

To Students of psychology:

Notice that when wastegate and bradclark1 go at it with each other ...
that they don't use smiley's ... :hmm:

Lol, yep, and one or both will be mad at me for letting this thread go on. ;)

Guys, I think we've covered this ground thoroughly.