GWX visual range and detection question

[Sgian Dubh]

Hi all,

So now that I have some time in on GWX I seem to be struggling to deal with one issue.

Let me illustrate by example:

I start the Drumbeat single mission.


You start submerged.
Regardless of what heading or speed I set, regardless of bottoming the boat or running silent - shortly after dusk an Armed trawler shows up and make a bee-line straight for me and begins pinging me when it comes into range.

After about 8 iterations of this I finally surfaced on the last attempt and then blew it out of the water with my deck gun.

This is just one illustration.

In other scenarios and in the campaign it seems like I am detected (at night - I never surface during the day) from extremely long ranges, even in early war.

I do not mean to say that GWX is "too hard" or some thing is wrong with GWX.

But I need to understand better that I do now what is going on and why.

If it is a calm sea, middle of the night and no moon, what is a safe distance (from DDs) that one can operate on the surface? I don't mean go screaming along - I mean creeping and recharing my batteries.

I don't mind so much the challenge, especially in later years. But in 1939 it seems much harder that I would have expected.

So just some hints on how to cope with this in GWX would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Mooncatt]

calm seas=better sonar/ASDIC on the DD`s i been spotted on the surface on clear nights/days from a good way off round about 5km or summat daft. silent running 1-2knts and as deep as possible. i do not attack escorted ships in later war if the weather isnt on my side, if you do you can kiss ya butt goodbye.

[Steppenwolf]

Don't forget that in GWX, you can run with "decks awash" when stalking/attacking a ship/convoy.

In a type VII, ( which usually runs at a depth of 5 meters when surfaced ). If you set the depth to 6 meters you will run with decks slightly awash. Your speed and fuel efficiency will drop to about 82% of normal, but you will be harder to see and can still man the deck gun. You can also set the depth to 7 meters to run with the decks heavily awash (pretty much just the conning tower out of the water). Your speed and fuel efficiency will drop to about 75% of normal, but you are even more difficult to spot.

[leeclose]

Also rememeber that water is the perfect conductor of sound so in perfect weather ie calm seas Sonar/asic can pick you up farting at 8 to 10 km:up:

[Sgian Dubh]

Also rememeber that water is the perfect conductor of sound so in perfect weather ie calm seas Sonar/asic can pick you up farting at 8 to 10 km:up:


Damn Bernard and his sausages! I just *knew* it was the sausages!:D

[leeclose]

Bratwurst all the way literally the smelly sonar:up:

[Lanzfeld]

In GWX with flat seas (wind o m/s) and no fog the AI can see 30 km. Yes that is 30,000 meters. Go to the mods discussion forum and search for visual nodes. There you will find an alternative mod that uses NYGM values for GWX. If you want to try something different.

[Dantenoc]

Are you sure about this? That would seem completely unffair taking into account that game world's horizon only extends out to 8kms :down: (even using the 16km version would fall short)

[Steppenwolf]

I believe the post/thread Lanzfeld is referring to is this one:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=400026&postcount=12

Ducimus says the visual range is 30km, but points out that that is for flawless conditions. Environmental variables (light, sea state, fog, clouds etc.) all have a dramatic impact on this.

See also, Kpt. Lehmann's comments on the same subject:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=399910&postcount=7

[Tobus]

Make enough noise under water and a DD/escort can hear you as well as you do him over your KDB. And yes, that is from a long way!

[joea]

In GWX with flat seas (wind o m/s) and no fog the AI can see 30 km. Yes that is 30,000 meters. Go to the mods discussion forum and search for visual nodes. There you will find an alternative mod that uses NYGM values for GWX. If you want to try something different.

Guys he did not say that he said here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=399910&postcount=7

Something else that you must understand regarding the visual sensors in GWX as they stand in general. They yield a POTENTIAL (not a certainty) of seeing a reasonable distance based on first hand accounts and modern range estimations from a known point to another known point.

You can indeed see 30 km on a clear day. (In GWX we are limited to 16km for obvious reasons.)

This POTENTIAL spotting is influenced by several atmospheric variables.


My bold, he means 30 km IRL and limited to 16 in GWX.

[leeclose]

I didnt know you got clear days in SH3(j/k):up:

[Lanzfeld]

If you read that entire "visual node" thread he does mean 30 km in the game. That is why, on clear calm days, you can have an escort shell you from over the horizon or just come charging at you from over the horizon and you are like "where the hell did he come from???"

I did say in my first post that this is in perfect conditions.

[Sgian Dubh]

Thanks for all of the information and feedback.

I had a much better time on patrol last night after reading this stuff through.


So I have one follow up question:

Is there the chance of dumb luck with GWX? What I mean is that in 1940, on a moonless night with good weather can I even expect to have a chance at running a surface attack on a convoy and getting away?

Or will the escorts "see" me the instant I surface?

I don't mind pushing the edge of risk, but if it is certain death regardless, then I will just stay under. Also, this means a much more difficult overhauling process - but I generally have always tried to hold a 20 mile distance while overhauling, so this should still be a viable tactic, yes?

[Mooncatt]

people have posted various techniques on surface attacks but it isnt something i would do tbh

[Spin Doctor]

For me, I don't see any real advantage to attacking on the surface in good weather. Maybe in bad it may be easier for you as the skipper and harder for the DD's to detect you, but in good, I guarantee if you surface anywhere near a convoy in shooting range (which for me is 1500m or less) whether the pickets have passed or not, your life will become instant hell. Even if the escorts don't see you, the target might and they will radio your position.

But try it and let us know how it turns out. I'm way too chicken to even try :yep:

[Ducimus]

RE 30K max visual distance on the AI.

Yes, they have 30K distance as already stated. Given the enviormental variables it doesnt really hurt you unless its a clear/calm day. It's the clear calm days that is the fly in the ointment. THey don't happen very often but when they do, you life can get intresting.

Imagine my surpise when i had a DD come out of nowhere at me towards the south atlantic. Crusing along, at high TC then BAM.. being shelled out of nowhere. Espeically the med. WHOA neally, do not cruise on the surface in the med during a clear calm day.


I suppose it comes down to the a question of, "is 30KM max visual distance on the AI realistic?" In real world terms, i suppose it is - particuarlly on ships where lookouts are higher up out of the water. But does this transcribe to "in game terms" very well?

In my opinion no, Here is where i difer with the 30K max distance. In SH3, "in game" terms, at 16K visual distance, is where you as a player start to see the effects of what may as well be the curvature of the earth. (do you see the effects of the earth curvature at 16K in real life? of course not, but in SH3 you do)

So, out comes my mad MS paint skills again.

http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/visual_distance.jpg

The green guy on the left is your sub. The black guy on the very top is a merchant. Hes at the very edge of 16K visual distance. (which is why you should see him on the horizon, hull down and just the top of his smoke stacks) The red guy on the far right as a warship of some kind, who basically - given SH3's limited scaling on vision, may as well have x ray vision.

But again, to reiterate, this is on calm/clear days. Also while i disagree that what could a realisitc real world setting transcribes to game very well ( it doesn't), i have to admit that if one wanted to make a break in the usual bordeom, this is definatly something i'd do. You can, in effect, force an encounter on the player in certain areas (like gibralter or med where enemy patrols are heavy) providing the weather is going along with the gag ;)

[leeclose]

I want a green sub they on sale any where?:doh:

[Mooncatt]

nice paint skills Ducimus im impressed :D

[Ducimus]

nice paint skills Ducimus im impressed :D

LOL. Courses in drafting, and computer graphic art - and MS paint is the only thing im good at. :88)

[leeclose]

So when does my bright green sub get delivered:doh: :rotfl:

[Hartmann]

Could be possible reduce IA visual distance to 16 / or 20 km ?? :hmm:

I´m not very happy being shelled from a invissible target .

also i consider the low profile of the boat make very difficult see it at long range.
if i can´t see his mast, they can´t see me

[leeclose]

The only way the should pick you up is if you have a mast up other than that at that range they shouldnt unless they have the bionic man as a lookout:up:

[Sailor Steve]

Here I've spent multiple threads justifying the 16km mod, and now we have just the opposite: 30,000 meters is more than 32,000 yards, and the only ships who should be spotting each other at that kind of range are two battleships. Destroyers aren't going to see u-boats sixteen miles away. U-boats might see the smoke at that range.

You shouldn't be getting surprised all the time, and shouldn't be getting shot at by someone you can't see.

[Ducimus]

And here i thought steve would come back with a disagreement with my posting. :88)

edit: I said this "(do you see the effects of the earth curvature at 16K in real life? of course not, but in SH3 you do)"

I guess i stand corrected :88) Still though, 30K is too much.

[Rubini]

I was in neutral position until this exact moment, avoiding to show my personal opinion about this issue in this public forum. I'm saying this because I worked and yet work in GWX all the time.
GWX have Long Range Gunnery mod what is primarily directed to a naval battle game. I know that some ppl on GWX team will not agree with this opinion but...
This mod is which push GWX visual and sensors so away. Also environmental changes were needed to accomodate the LRG mod...
I understand that 30km is ok for batteships, or perhaps, in real life, in perfect conditions, also was ok for some ASW units during WWII.
But the man problem is not if this is ok or not in RL.
The man problem is that the reality was not fitted well for SH3 engine in some matters. The LRG visual/sensors detection on GWX is one of them.

I guess that a more reasonable distances like Ducimus put on his mod is very more ellegant for SH3. And the game plays better in a uboat perspective.

Also is out of question that GWX team will officialy change anything in this matter, a lot of ppl probably like the settings (not only in the team). Ok, no problems.

This is why modders exist. For all us that aren´t happy with the GWX stock LRG mod settings and want choices here we have Ducimus ones and i guess that probably some more will arrive.
I just hope that GWX team release officialy the TT tweaks files for his modified Sensors.dat and also Guns files.
This is democracy!:know:

My 2 cents.

Rubini.

[leeclose]

Yup funnily enough i was leaving wili last noght and a vii was dockign and ive got the 16km mod active when the sub got to about 9000yds i could barely see it so i diont figure how DD's can see us at even greater ranges may need fixed me thinks:rock:

[joea]

Yup funnily enough i was leaving wili last noght and a vii was dockign and ive got the 16km mod active when the sub got to about 9000yds i could barely see it so i diont figure how DD's can see us at even greater ranges may need fixed me thinks:rock:

Well ships are larger and more importantly higher than subs so even DDs and DEs should see farther, taking into account the weather of course.

[leeclose]

Yup but subs cast a lower silheute(yeah i spelt it wrong) so even in calm sea's it should be hard for even a DD past 10km to see you espesh when you have cammo the same as the water:yep:

[joea]

Well I kan't speel siloette either. :rotfl:

[leeclose]

STopol i baint eh ifnly dim wit:up:

[Dantenoc]

Well ships are larger and more importantly higher than subs so even DDs and DEs should see farther, taking into account the weather of course.

No they should not, unless they have a guy strapped on to the tallest point of their highest mast, and even then, with all other things being equal, a short ship and a tall ship should be able to see each other at the same exact time. Remeber always that line of sight works both ways, hence you can only see what can see you.

Think of it this way, I don't care how tall you are, If you can look over your midget neighbor's fence and look him in the eye, then surely he can see you as well. Even if you just rise above the fence enough to look at the top of his small little head, he'll be able to see the top of your head as well. Heigth just doesn't matter.

On the other hand, because the DDs and DEs are bigger and have a larger form, they should be noticed first, so the sub should always win out. Always. No matter what the weather is like.

[joea]

Well bigger ships are more stable and have more powerful binoculars. Plus radar is more useful on a bigger ship. Besides, I disagree with the categorical statement "...subs should always win out. Always" Never have been absolutes in warfare.

[leeclose]

hi guys heres the deffination of LOS:

line of sight (http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861698812/line_of_sight.html)
- line from eye to object: an imaginary line from an observer to a distant object
- unobstructed transmitting path: a straight path, unobstructed by the horizon, between a transmitting and receiving antenna. (http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861698812/line_of_sight.html)


Hope this helps:up:

[High Voltage]

You have to remember too that generally the first indication that a ship was on the horizon was the smoke coming from its' funnel(s). It was almost impossible to overcome this for the crews on board, though they tried their best to minimize this giveaway..

Also, if you are a mouse in a soccer field and you spot a man walking at the other end of the pitch, although technically you could both spot each other at the same time, you have the advantage of a much lower profile. When the person scans the field you just blend into everything in front of him, whereas his profile will stick out dramatically and enable you to approach much closer before you enter his field of vision...... Sub hunting 101!:know:

;) ;)

[joea]

Guys, the ships might have smoke, but you are forgetting the subs leave WAKES! That would be easier to spot from a ship than the boat itself, unless you (the sub) are profile on to the DD, and not barreling in at flank speed. :hmm:

[leeclose]

Yup everything leaves wakes but out past a certain distance due to wave action ur never going to see it.:ping:

[Dantenoc]

Well bigger ships are more stable and have more powerful binoculars. Plus radar is more useful on a bigger ship. Besides, I disagree with the categorical statement "...subs should always win out. Always" Never have been absolutes in warfare.

Well, yes, I agree. Throw in radar into the equation and all bets are off, but I thought the thread refered to "visual detection". As to the "sub should always win out"... well, they should, but I'll concede that in reality an inatentive sub crew could very well be surprised by a very sharp battleship crew for obvious reasons :yep:

Interesting point about the binoculars... :hmm: I would tend to think that it's just as easy to carry very strong binoculars with you on any ship regardless of size, just as long as you can carry them, but I think that you're right, historicaly some surface ship crews had better binoculars with them.

[Brag]

If your scope is down, the tallest thing on a U-boat are the lookouts or people on the bridge.

Other ships have something, like masts that stick out above the horizon. So the U-boat's lookouts should see signs of a ship before the ship's lookouts start picking up the haircuts of the guys on the U-boat. :know:

[leeclose]

Well as someone who has served on SS i can honestly say we have seen Skimmer's visually way before they have seen us in fact had many a conversations with skimmer mates who while doing bridge watch have found it hard to see a boat in the ogin(water RN slang) and during dusk and darkness damm near impossible:up: