Lets's learn something from SH3....

[TDK1044]

If history teaches us anything, then several things will happen when SH4 is released. There will be much anticipation from people waiting for the game to arrive in the mail, followed by the initial excitement as they install the game and read the user manual for the first time.

Then the fun starts. Once people check out the eye candy and the graphical and gameplay enhancements of SH4, most people will happily play and enjoy the new game, possibly spotting a game flaw here and there, but not really caring about that as the game is still very enjoyable and there will undoubtedly be a patch to fix the relevant flaws at some point anyway.

A few people though will make mountains out of mole hills, pointing out flaws that they have discovered, and dramatically asking why these flaws weren't spotted and corrected.

So, out of respect to Neal and the other Beta Testers, I'd like to point out a couple of things: Number one is that people testing games such as this are not always given the most current version of the game to test, and they can't test what they never had. Number two is that not all of the problems found by the Beta Testers in any game will necessarily be addressed in the initial release of the game. There are other factors in play.

In my opinion, Silent Hunter 4 will be the best WWII sub sim yet seen, and the game will be great to look at and a lot of fun to play. There will undoubtedly be a few bumps here and there, and the modders will make their usual awesome input to the game in the fruition of time.

This Forum has always been the best subsim Forum out there for my money, and one of the reasons for that is that, unlike other similar Forums, we tend to have a 'glass is half full' attitue here. We also have Moderators like Gizzmoe and John Channing who ride the line between spirited, constructive discussion and petulent nonsense very well. Both of them have taken me to task in the past and they were both correct when they did so.

So let's learn from SH3, folks, and give SH4 and the excellent Dev team a fair shake. Let's also be as quick to praise as we are to criticise, because it's so much easier to be negative than positive.

Enjoy the game and don't sweat the small stuff!

:D

[bwchaney]

excellent post sir. it takes in my question about future modding as well. this is the reason i folllow this forum as most of the time i get a mature read here. again a very good post. bwchaney:o

[Barkhorn1x]

Hear, hear! :up:

[ReallyDedPoet]

If history teaches us anything, then several things will happen when SH4 is released. There will be much anticipation from people waiting for the game to arrive in the mail, followed by the initial excitement as they install the game and read the user manual for the first time.

Then the fun starts. Once people check out the eye candy and the graphical and gameplay enhancements of SH4, most people will happily play and enjoy the new game, possibly spotting a game flaw here and there, but not really caring about that as the game is still very enjoyable and there will undoubtedly be a patch to fix the relevant flaws at some point anyway.

A few people though will make mountains out of mole hills, pointing out flaws that they have discovered, and dramatically asking why these flaws weren't spotted and corrected.

So, out of respect to Neal and the other Beta Testers, I'd like to point out a couple of things: Number one is that people testing games such as this are not always given the most current version of the game to test, and they can't test what they never had. Number two is that not all of the problems found by the Beta Testers in any game will necessarily be addressed in the initial release of the game. There are other factors in play.

In my opinion, Silent Hunter 4 will be the best WWII sub sim yet seen, and the game will be great to look at and a lot of fun to play. There will undoubtedly be a few bumps here and there, and the modders will make their usual awesome input to the game in the fruition of time.

This Forum has always been the best subsim Forum out there for my money, and one of the reasons for that is that, unlike other similar Forums, we tend to have a 'glass is half full' attitue here. We also have Moderators like Gizzmoe and John Channing who ride the line between spirited, constructive discussion and petulent nonsense very well. Both of them have taken me to task in the past and they were both correct when they did so.

So let's learn from SH3, folks, and give SH4 and the excellent Dev team a fair shake. Let's also be as quick to praise as we are to criticise, because it's so much easier to be negative than positive.

Enjoy the game and don't sweat the small stuff!

:D

Nice post, I like the refererence to the Moderators, they do a great job and keep things here relatively civilized:up:

[LeafsFan]

I'll take a contrarian view. If the engine is largely unchanged why should we not expect a very high quality product out of the box? I mean the development team has had a lot of time, and a lot of feedback from people like us, they should get it right this time. I, however do not expect them do produce anything like a quality product out of the box, which is why I'll be waiting a long time before purchasing this product.

HB

[Sonarman]

I fully agree with TDK1044, we should remember that "the eyes of the world are upon us" i.e. many of the reviewers from the gaming press probably come here to look for "inspiration" for their articles, we should not be too damning on any small faults in SH4 and instead offer constructive criticism and praise on the merits of SH4 wherever possible.

[nvdrifter]

A few people though will make mountains out of mole hills, pointing out flaws that they have discovered, and dramatically asking why these flaws weren't spotted and corrected.
I guess all of the bugs and broken features in SH3 would equal Mt. Everest. :shifty:



In my opinion, Silent Hunter 4 will be the best WWII sub sim yet seen, and the game will be great to look at and a lot of fun to play. There will undoubtedly be a few bumps here and there, and the modders will make their usual awesome input to the game in the fruition of time.
Well, I think your statement above is a little bit premature. You haven't even played the game yet, but make far out statements like this. Given Ubisoft's track record in the past, a lot of us are not getting our hopes up. We all want SH4 to be a great sim, but I have a feeling it's going to be a big letdown for a lot of players and modders alike... unless they release it so it is easily moddable so us modders can fix the bugs and other broken things. But I seriously doubt it will be much more moddable than SH3, which means a lot of important things will probably be hard-coded, and will be a major headache for modders to try to find work arounds to fix problems. We can pray that they will eventually fix most of the bigger bugs in a few later patches, but of course not everything will be fixed. We all hope for the best, but SH3 was released as a half-finished, buggy piece of $#%$"&, and only the modders saved it from a sure death. SH3 is now the way it should have been released in the first place, thanks to the modders. It's still not perfect, but a lot of us did all we could due to hard-coding restraints. So many important gameplay features and details were left out of SH3 due to too much focus on pretty graphics, I still can't understand what they were thinking. :nope: Anyways, if SH4 is released in the same horrible, half-finished, buggy condition like SH3 was, then you had better believe we will complain. But people here darn well better praise the heck out of SH4 if it really is released with great gameplay, detail, and few bugs.


So let's learn from SH3, folks, and give SH4 and the excellent Dev team a fair shake.
Umm, we did learn from SH3, that is why a lot of us are skeptical. We all hope SH4 will be the best WW2 sub sim ever released, but don't you think it's a little unwise to blindly praise a game that none of us have even played yet? :shifty:



Enjoy the game and don't sweat the small stuff!
Lol. Are you serious? I wouldn't call the half-finished and totally buggy release of SH3 'small stuff'. :roll:

[stabiz]

I think the best approach is in between fanboy and ranter. Nothing new in that.

[nvdrifter]

I think the best approach is in between fanboy and ranter. Nothing new in that.
Well said. Maybe I should have shortened my post above to say something like that. :D If SH4 is a really great (and finished) sim, it will get the praise it deserves. If it's really buggy and unfinished, it will get the criticism and complaints it deserves. ;)

[Captain Krunch]

You haven't even played the game yet, but make far out statements like this.
Hear, hear! Far too many people are making statements regarding the quality of SH4, despite the fact that it isn't even released yet.

We all want SH4 to be a great sim, but I have a feeling it's going to be a big letdown for a lot of players and modders alike... unless they release it so it is easily moddable so us modders can fix the bugs and other broken things.
Oh, oh, wait a minute. "...have a feeling it's going to be a big letdown..."? "...so us modders can fix the bugs and other broken things."? Wow, have you played the game yet? Because if you haven't, then it appears that you're making some pretty far out statements yourself.

We all hope SH4 will be the best WW2 sub sim ever released, but don't you think it's a little unwise to blindly praise a game that none of us have even played yet?
Likewise, don't you think it's a little unwise to blindly criticize a game that none of us have even played yet?

You see, these types of comments go both ways. If you want to praise or criticize SH4 based on how well it compares to SH3, at least wait until it's out and installed on your computer; before then, it's just unfounded guesses. Yet once the game is installed, then make all the positive and negative statements you want about it.

[StandingCow]

Yep, good graphics make people buy the game, good gameplay makes people keep playing the game.

However, beta testers for some odd reason either miss, or the devs dont fix some of the most obvious issues, you can see examples with games from EA... but as long as they patch it fast it isn't too much of an issue.

[nvdrifter]

You haven't even played the game yet, but make far out statements like this.
Hear, hear! Far too many people are making statements regarding the quality of SH4, despite the fact that it isn't even released yet.

We all want SH4 to be a great sim, but I have a feeling it's going to be a big letdown for a lot of players and modders alike... unless they release it so it is easily moddable so us modders can fix the bugs and other broken things.
Oh, oh, wait a minute. "...have a feeling it's going to be a big letdown..."? "...so us modders can fix the bugs and other broken things."? Wow, have you played the game yet? Because if you haven't, then it appears that you're making some pretty far out statements yourself.

We all hope SH4 will be the best WW2 sub sim ever released, but don't you think it's a little unwise to blindly praise a game that none of us have even played yet?
Likewise, don't you think it's a little unwise to blindly criticize a game that none of us have even played yet?

You see, these types of comments go both ways. If you want to praise or criticize SH4 based on how well it compares to SH3, at least wait until it's out and installed on your computer; before then, it's just unfounded guesses. Yet once the game is installed, then make all the positive and negative statements you want about it.
Well, what do you expect? I'm just going by Ubisoft's past track record. It's the only thing we have to go on. I think someone proclaiming that the still unreleased SH4 will be the best WW2 sub game ever is a total fanboy. And yes, there will be bugs in SH4, maybe major bugs. But maybe, just maybe the Ubisoft developers turned over a new leaf and will release SH4 almost bug free and totally finished with great gameplay. I really hope so. But I'm betting (not hoping) that SH4 will be released totally buggy and unfinished, because they will have once again focused too much on pretty graphics and not enough on gameplay and details. I really hope I'm wrong.

[Iron Budokan]

I agree. Good post!

[TDK1044]

I agree that SH3 was very buggy at the time of relaese, and it required 4 patches and some serious modding to make it a great game. I'm not making the same assumption relative to SH4 though.

[nvdrifter]

I agree that SH3 was very buggy at the time of relaese, and it required 4 patches and some serious modding to make it a great game. I'm not making the same assumption relative to SH4 though.
I hope you're right. We need a great WW2 Pacific sub sim with realistic gameplay. Maybe Ubisoft can pull it off. I especially liked the screenshot where the sub was sitting on it's side on the sea floor, and inside the crew were laying on the floor. Too cool. I just hope the gameplay is as good as the screenshots.

[Navarre]

...good gameplay makes people keep playing the game.
...and prevented the people to buy new games within the following months, unprofitable for a publisher.:rotfl:

[TDK1044]

I agree that SH3 was very buggy at the time of relaese, and it required 4 patches and some serious modding to make it a great game. I'm not making the same assumption relative to SH4 though.
I hope you're right. We need a great WW2 Pacific sub sim with realistic gameplay. Maybe Ubisoft can pull it off.

I hope so too, nvdrifter. I think/hope the Devs learned a lot from SH3.

You see...spirited discussion...I love it. Much more productive than ranting, whch usually turns into one member personally attacking another.

Great responses to my post! :D

[nvdrifter]

I agree that SH3 was very buggy at the time of relaese, and it required 4 patches and some serious modding to make it a great game. I'm not making the same assumption relative to SH4 though.
I hope you're right. We need a great WW2 Pacific sub sim with realistic gameplay. Maybe Ubisoft can pull it off.
I hope so too, nvdrifter. I think/hope the Devs learned a lot from SH3.

You see...spirited discussion...I love it. Much more productive than ranting, whch usually turns into one member personally attacking another.

Great responses to my post! :D

No, I won't personally attack anyone. Civilized is good. And I hate when people bash games for no reason. I'm really looking forward to reading people's feedback on this board once they get SH4 installed on their computers.

[nvdrifter]

TDK1044,

Please don't misunderstand my previous posts. I don't want SH4 to be a failure. I want it to be a dazzling success with great realism, detail, and gameplay. I'm just not getting my hopes up... yet. ;)

[Sailor Steve]

I will say this for SH3, even in its original form: Some of the problems were bugs, which should have been caught and fixed. Some of the problems were mistakes, which might have been caught with more testing, or with testing by the right people, either of which obviously didn't happen, which can't necessarily be blamed on the developers, simply because they can't always tell what to test for.

My focus is on the one set of complaints that I object to; and that is things like the Crew Management (and there are several others, but my brain isn't working yet this morning). This is something fairly new, and they got it wrong. But I don't see how they could have known it was wrong until people had played it and started complaining. It may be something they should have fixed with a patch, but people would just say it shouldn't need a patch. There are a lot of things that designers just can't forsee how the buyers will react to, and sometimes all they can do is react in turn. I just hope the Management in SH4 works as well as it looks like it's going to.

[Sturat]

Well said. :up:

[TDK1044]

TDK1044,

Please don't misunderstand my previous posts. I don't want SH4 to be a failure. I want it to be a dazzling success with great realism, detail, and gameplay. I'm just not getting my hopes up... yet. ;)

I absolutely understand what you're saying, nvdrifter, and I respect this and other posts that you've made in this Forum. I just don't want everyone to go into SH4 blinkered by SH3.

If they release SH4 as a buggy mess, then we can all let them know it and legitimately ask why lessons weren't learned from SH3. I'm hoping that with SH4, the only mess will be the fiasco involving Limited Editions, Special Editions, Super Dooper Special Editions etc.

[nvdrifter]

TDK1044,

Please don't misunderstand my previous posts. I don't want SH4 to be a failure. I want it to be a dazzling success with great realism, detail, and gameplay. I'm just not getting my hopes up... yet. ;)
I absolutely understand what you're saying, nvdrifter, and I respect this and other posts that you've made in this Forum. I just don't want everyone to go into SH4 blinkered by SH3.

If they release SH4 as a buggy mess, then we can all let them know it and legitimately ask why lessons weren't learned from SH3. I'm hoping that with SH4, the only mess will be the fiasco involving Limited Editions, Special Editions, Super Dooper Special Editions etc.

One glint of hope I see is that they based SH4 on the SH3 game engine, which means that they didn't have to start over and design a whole new engine. This would hopefully give the developers more time to focus on good gameplay, details, realism, and squashing bugs. :hmm:

[TDK1044]

[quote=TDK1044][quote=nvdrifter]TDK1044,

One glint of hope I see is that they based SH4 on the SH3 game engine, which means that they didn't have to start over and design a whole new engine. This would hopefully give the developers more time to focus on good gameplay, details, realism, and squashing bugs. :hmm:

I entirely agree. The AI will be interesting also. The Japanese wrere not initially as skilled at the Allies at tracking and attacking subs, and I wonder if this is modeled into the final version of the game. If it is, I wonder if a lot of people will complain that it's too easy to escape after an attack?

[nvdrifter]

[quote=TDK1044][quote=nvdrifter]TDK1044,

One glint of hope I see is that they based SH4 on the SH3 game engine, which means that they didn't have to start over and design a whole new engine. This would hopefully give the developers more time to focus on good gameplay, details, realism, and squashing bugs. :hmm:
I entirely agree. The AI will be interesting also. The Japanese wrere not initially as skilled at the Allies at tracking and attacking subs, and I wonder if this is modeled into the final version of the game. If it is, I wonder if a lot of people will complain that it's too easy to escape after an attack?

Oh, I agree. Sometimes too hard is just as unrealstic as too easy. Sometimes people automatically equate difficulty with realism. :huh:

[kiwi_2005]

Its a sub game of course its going to be good, thats why we're all here we like subs. SHIV will have its faults like SH3 did but really this wont stop us playing it, we aren't going to go "Ok i found a bug in the game last nite i notice when im on the surface my crew say engine room destroyed yet its not, so im going to delete this game and never play it again..." For me this game would have to be really really bad before i uninstalled it.

So some bugs are going to pop up some graphic glitches are going to show up with certain gfx cards, some will have slow downs and blame the game instead of realise 512mb of RAM aint enough and it dont matter if its DDR4 kick ass extreme uber ram chip either, its going to run slow, some will complain that the torpedoes have a minus firing rate ratio of .000000000.1 percent and will tell us this is not good and needs to be corrected quickly! :rotfl: or the persicope when raised is 0.5mm to short than the real thing! :rotfl:

AND THATS WHY WE HAVE MODDERS! :arrgh!:

[TDK1044]

Most of the other 97 percent of people who buy this game will never have heard of Forums like this and will never have installed a patch in a game. They simply buy it off the shelf, install it, play it and enjoy it.

What those folks are blisfully unaware of is the fact that excellent modders, who they've never heard of, inspire game developers to build better games for them. You only have to look at water and cloud textures in SH4 to see that the inspiration came from the SH3 modders.

[Barkhorn1x]

Yep, good graphics make people buy the game, good gameplay makes people keep playing the game.

However, beta testers for some odd reason either miss, or the devs dont fix some of the most obvious issues, you can see examples with games from EA... but as long as they patch it fast it isn't too much of an issue.

Oh, I think that the Beta testers do identify 90%+ of the issues - on the builds they get to assess.

Whether they get fixed or not then becomes a matter of how much time and resources are available before the suites at UBI - or any other publisher - state it is time to get the game on the street. Or, the issue is deemed "tolerable" by the devs.

I'll give you an example from M2TW - the pathing for units in cities/fortresses and the pursuit of rouiting units by cavalry just SUX.:x I found this out after the first day of playing. So there is NO WAY that a Beta tester - many very experienced w/ the franchise - did not bring this to the devs. attention. And - the issue has yet to be addressed.

BTW, M2TW is the perfect example of a game where entirely too much effort was lavished on flashy graphics to the detriment of solid game play.

Let us hope that SHIV team did not follow in those footsteps. :yep:

[TDK1044]

Oh, I think that the Beta testers do identify 90%+ of the issues - on the builds they get to assess.

Whether they get fixed or not then becomes a matter of how much time and resources are available before the suites at UBI - or any other publisher - state it is time to get the game on the street. Or, the issue is deemed "tolerable" by the devs.



I agree 100 percent! :D

[boatfull]

Yep, good graphics make people buy the game, good gameplay makes people keep playing the game.

However, beta testers for some odd reason either miss, or the devs dont fix some of the most obvious issues, you can see examples with games from EA... but as long as they patch it fast it isn't too much of an issue.
Oh, I think that the Beta testers do identify 90%+ of the issues - on the builds they get to assess.

Whether they get fixed or not then becomes a matter of how much time and resources are available before the suites at UBI - or any other publisher - state it is time to get the game on the street. Or, the issue is deemed "tolerable" by the devs.

I'll give you an example from M2TW - the pathing for units in cities/fortresses and the pursuit of rouiting units by cavalry just SUX.:x I found this out after the first day of playing. So there is NO WAY that a Beta tester - many very experienced w/ the franchise - did not bring this to the devs. attention. And - the issue has yet to be addressed.

BTW, M2TW is the perfect example of a game where entirely too much effort was lavished on flashy graphics to the detriment of solid game play.

Let us hope that SHIV team did not follow in those footsteps. :yep:

Agreed! Also fixing one bug sometimes creates another.:doh:

[Captain Krunch]

Another thing to keep in mind is that some people, such as myself, have not played SH2 or SH3, so the leap from the original Silent Hunter to SH4 will be very dramatic. In fact, when I see the videos and screenshots of SH4, I start to drool because it's so much better than SH1. I think it's safe to say that, for *myself*, I have no doubt that I'll be very, very pleased with SH4 - but I guess I can understand why those of you who played SH2/3 may not have as large a positive reaction to SH4.

But are you guys creating expectations that are just too large to be met by anyone? Is it logical to do so? Is SH4 a revolutionary advance, or an evolutionary one? I say it's the latter.

Think about it for a moment. Over the years, many sims came out that were pretty good, so "sequels" were released that occured in another theater, but pretty much used the same engine as the original. Some early examples are Aces of the Pacific/Aces Over Europe and X-Wing/TIE Fighter. These sequels were not expansions, but stand-alone games, yet the technical improvements were fairly minor. The way I see it, SH4 has been produced in a similar fashion. It doesn't advance the genre technically, but it does give the customer a different theater, as well as some improvements over the previous version. If this is kept in mind, then perhaps the expecations won't be as high, thus you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[Barkhorn1x]

Your going from SHI to SHIV?!?! :o :o

My god - that's like going from a Holland class boat to a Balao w/ NOTHING in between. :hmm:

Damn. Enjoy the air conditioning and the ice-cream is all I can say. ;)


Barkhorn.

[THE_MASK]

Lets not kill the chicken before it lays the golden egg .

[KiwiVenge]

Lets not kill the chicken before it lays the golden egg .
No one is saying we should kill the chicken at any point.
They are just saying "Don't count your chickens before they hatch"

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

I feel robbed. I'm still waiting for the lesson learnt.

[flintlock]

modders, who they've never heard of, inspire game developers to build better games for them. With all due respect, I would suggest that you may have this a little backwards: modders are inspired by the games which developers have designed and engineered. That is not to take away from quality work which some modders produce. I also agree that there may be ideas from specific mods that may influence an area of a developers design. Without the original design of the game however, there wouldn't be a whole lot to modify.

;)

[Corsair]

modders, who they've never heard of, inspire game developers to build better games for them. With all due respect, I would suggest that you may have this a little backwards: modders are inspired by the games which developers have designed and engineered. That is not to take away from quality work which some modders produce. I also agree that there may be ideas from specific mods that may influence an area of a developers design. Without the original design of the game however, there wouldn't be a whole lot to modify.

;)

On the other hand, without the modding communities some games which have lasted for years (and sold many copies in the process) would have had a short lifetime (and a lot less sales)

[Steeltrap]

The thing I will be most interested to see is how they have addressed the issues that seem to have dogged every sub sim ever produced: AI and sensor performance.

Remember SHII (shudder....)? Out of the box and the AI found you, always hit with their first shot if you were detected on the surface (including the gunnery from merchants, and that's sooo ridiculous), or always dumped DCs right on you with the correct depth setting.

SHIII....similar issues. Even now the problem of realistic detection ranges/methods required a LOT of effort from our modders (and 3 cheers for them!). As for hiding on the sea floor, effect of debris and turbulence from previous DC attacks, thermal layers (admittedly more rare in Atlantic theatre, but COMMON in Pacific) etc....forget it!

So, that's what I want to see. Submarines had a HUGE advantage over surface vessels in their ability to detect targets while themselves remaining hidden. They regularly attacked on the surface and escaped without even being seen at all. Those things, however, were NEVER simulated properly without extensive modding, and even that only got so far due to hard-coded issues.

Get THAT right, and the rest is pretty simple in comparison.....

[Subnuts]

Well, here's a lesson to be learned from Silent Hunter One. Don't stay on the surface in an S-boat in broad daylight 20 miles away from a port where naval traffic regularly steams through. Also, evade the destroyers, rather than closing with them head-on to 800 yards and trying to torpedo them. Sorry, I just finished my shortest S-boat career ever. :dead:

[TDK1044]

The thing I will be most interested to see is how they have addressed the issues that seem to have dogged every sub sim ever produced: AI and sensor performance.

Remember SHII (shudder....)? Out of the box and the AI found you, always hit with their first shot if you were detected on the surface (including the gunnery from merchants, and that's sooo ridiculous), or always dumped DCs right on you with the correct depth setting.

SHIII....similar issues. Even now the problem of realistic detection ranges/methods required a LOT of effort from our modders (and 3 cheers for them!). As for hiding on the sea floor, effect of debris and turbulence from previous DC attacks, thermal layers (admittedly more rare in Atlantic theatre, but COMMON in Pacific) etc....forget it!

So, that's what I want to see. Submarines had a HUGE advantage over surface vessels in their ability to detect targets while themselves remaining hidden. They regularly attacked on the surface and escaped without even being seen at all. Those things, however, were NEVER simulated properly without extensive modding, and even that only got so far due to hard-coded issues.

Get THAT right, and the rest is pretty simple in comparison.....


I think the AI issue will be as keenly debated in SH4 as it was in SH3. There will be those pointing out that the Japanese were not as good at detecting or attacking subs as the Allies were in the Atlantic and that should therefore be reflected in the game. Then there will be those who say that if you adhere to that, then attacking and escaping will be too easy.

[fredbass]

I don't know how much the Sh4 Dev team has learned from the past, but I'm just a bit concerned at what I would consider is a relatively short amount of time that they were given to finish the initial release.

Time and resources are a factor which shouldn't be forgotten.