Large Battleships

[Penelope_Grey]

Guys, what was the immediate Allied counterpart to the Bismark, was there a battleship on the allied side which was of similar or equal size to the bismark?

[Oberon]

Hmmmmmm

Well, the Renown (otherwise known as the 'Refit' and 'Repair') class was about the same dimensions (within a few meters) but the Hood beat them...


Buuuut...I reckon the KGV class would probably have been the better comparison...even though the Prince of Wales didn't fare so well against the Bismarck (although to be fair, she was just out of dock and with a few technical hitches and civilian specialists still on board.) they certainly seem to be the premier warship of the era (despite Hoods status as the ship of the fleet).

So....I'm going for the King George V class.

Although, TBH, by the time the Bismarck reached her end, the era of the Carrier was well under way (as the Swordfish torpedo bomber crews from the Victorious and the Ark Royal that attacked the Bismarck would agree with....erm...well...primarily the ones from the Ark Royal...the ones from Victorious were too busy swimming back to the carrier after running out of fuel...) and the big gun battleship was under threat from the sky.

[Penelope_Grey]

thanks Oberon, I did wonder about the King George V, but was not 100% certain, I do know the Yamoto was the largest ever that was in excess of 75,000 tons!

[Oberon]

Yeah, she sure was a beast (Bigger than the proposed Montana class which the US never built)...but at the end of the day, ushered out by the aircraft.

[Penelope_Grey]

the Aircraft carrier was to be the new chief weapon for sure! :)

[STEED]

the Aircraft carrier was to be the new chief weapon for sure! :)

Indeed the Japanese showed the world what they could do at Pearl Harbour and America showed the world there weakness as they hit back at Midway.

[bigboywooly]

IIRC it was the British attack on Taranto which helped convince the Japanese Pearl could work

[JSLTIGER]

Yeah, [Yamato] was a beast (Bigger than the proposed Montana class which the US never built)...but at the end of the day, ushered out by the aircraft.

True enough that Yamato would have been bigger in total tonnage, but Montana would have had 12 16"/50 calibre guns with a heavier overall broadside than Yamato's 9 18.1"/45 calibre guns. However, certainly no argument about the aircraft.

[Torplexed]

The Japanese converted the last Yamato class battleship, the Shinano into a carrier while still in the stocks. In retrospect they probably wished they could have poured all that steel into carrier hulls.

[JSLTIGER]

The Japanese converted the last Yamato class battleship, the Shinano into a carrier while still in the stocks. In retrospect they probably wished they could have poured all that steel into carrier hulls.
True. However, if you'll remember, Shinano was sunk by a torpedo attack with four hits from USS Archer-Fish before she was even properly fitted out. Therefore, she offered no benefit to the Japanese, who put a lot of resources into her construction.

[Torplexed]

Yeah...she sank without even ever launching a plane. That must have stung. And she was the largest carrier ever built until the USN's Forrestal class of the 1950s.

[GSpector]

As for Aircraft Carriers, I with the Yorktown Class was in SH4. Especially my Favorite. The CV 6, Enterprise.

[Mush Martin]

The Japanese converted the last Yamato class battleship, the Shinano into a carrier while still in the stocks. In retrospect they probably wished they could have poured all that steel into carrier hulls.

or DE hulls. and tankers.

[Bort]

The interesting thing is that the Bismarck didn't really have a true allied counterpart. Bismarck was designed to operate independently as a commerce raider, unlike the Allied battlewagons which were meant to operate as part of a battle group or line with cruisers and escorts, engaging similar enemy groups. In that sense, Bismarck and Tirpitz have no true peers.

[Torplexed]

Actually the Germans had every intention in the 1930s of building a balanced battlefleet starting with the Bismarck. There were eventually to have been six. However submarine construction took priority and Bismarck and her sister ship Tirpitz had to be pressed into the only use available as they were so few. Commerce raiders.

[CCIP]

The interesting thing is that the Bismarck didn't really have a true allied counterpart. Bismarck was designed to operate independently as a commerce raider, unlike the Allied battlewagons which were meant to operate as part of a battle group or line with cruisers and escorts, engaging similar enemy groups. In that sense, Bismarck and Tirpitz have no true peers.

Yea, good point!

I think it's pretty fair to safe that it wasn't a "ship of the line" per se, just a massively powerful commerce raider. She was a pretty impressive design though.


Now, on the subject of big BBs...

I think this page is very relevant:
http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

(a detailed comparison of the world's most powerful BBs, which actually puts the Iowas at the top)

[Bort]

I think it's pretty fair to safe that it wasn't a "ship of the line" per se, just a massively powerful commerce raider. She was a pretty impressive design though.

No doubt about that! She went toe to toe with some of Britain's best ships and held her own for an astonishing amount of time, all alone with no assistance.

[Torplexed]

Before we sing the Bismarck's merits too highly let's not forget this mighty mountain of steel was disabled and rendered unsteerable by one torpedo from an obsolete slow-moving biplane. ;) Such vulnerability to aircraft pretty much ended the period of German warships acting as surface raiders

[Bort]

Before we sing the Bismarck's merits too highly let's not forget this mighty mountain of steel was disabled and rendered unsteerable by one torpedo from an obsolete slow-moving biplane. ;) Such vulnerability to aircraft pretty much ended the period of German warships acting as surface raiders

Point well taken! The Axis powers would have been well advised to create better counter-biplane technologies and tactics. Who would've thunk it?:arrgh!:

[Penelope_Grey]

Yeah well, sing the Bismark's praises, it took out the hood with just 3 shots! And it took over 700 shells before it went down, and, even then there is an historical debate that could go back and forth forever as to was it sunk, or scuttled?

Its funny about the Swordfish plane, but the Germans were not expecting that to be used, the Bismark's AA guns were designed to hit faster moving planes.

[STEED]

Yeah well, sing the Bismark's praises, it took out the hood with just 3 shots! And it took over 700 shells before it went down, and, even then there is an historical debate that could go back and forth forever as to was it sunk, or scuttled?

Its funny about the Swordfish plane, but the Germans were not expecting that to be used, the Bismark's AA guns were designed to hit faster moving planes.

Three reasons why H.M.S HOOD went down
1st she was old
2nd The Hood's stern was not refitted with deck armour unlike her bow was, too protect against plunging shells
3rd The Bismark used AP shells

The result of this was one lucky shot by Bismark landed in the stern of the Hood and penetrated her down to her magazines which marked her end.

If Hood had those upgrades, she may have survived but would had been forced to break off her attack.

And now meet the man who changed the battle.

Pilot reunited with old war plane (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/4931310.stm)

[bigboywooly]

Yeah the poor ole Hood
Built in the day guns couldnt fire as far so only needed massive belt armour
As gun ranges increased the shells would rain down onto the deck rather than hitting the side armour
God only knows why they didnt increase the stern deck at the same time as the fore decks

From all the stuff I have read and seen the Hood was only minutes away from safety
The point where the shells would have such a trajectory they would hit the sides not the decking
Alas not to be

[bookworm_020]

The interesting thing is that the Bismarck didn't really have a true allied counterpart. Bismarck was designed to operate independently as a commerce raider, unlike the Allied battlewagons which were meant to operate as part of a battle group or line with cruisers and escorts, engaging similar enemy groups. In that sense, Bismarck and Tirpitz have no true peers.

The Queen Elizabeth class is the most like the Bismarck in layout and appearance, as well gunn and number side. The Bismarck had the advantage in that she was a more modern build so more experience from WW1 went into her construction as well as new advances that had appeared since then.

The Bismarck layout was based on the WW1 Battleship Bayen. The design showed how good it was taking damage through the expereinces of the Bismarck and Tirpitz.