Did any wartime US boats have snorkels?

[difool2]

Other than a few experimental boats, I don't believe so. Good thing that the Japanese
didn't have the kinds of toys that the Allies did in the other ocean.

[Torplexed]

Nope. No snorkels during the conflict. Not til well after the war after studying the German Type XXI did the US Navy's GUPPY class subs come into being. The Japanese got a few examples from the Germans and incoporated them into their late war sprint subs like the Sensuikan Taka Sho (Type STS)

[IRONxMortlock]

What do they say, "necessity is the mother of all invention"?

Except for this perhaps...
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/811/japaneseinventionvx5.jpg
________
Colorado dispensaries (http://colorado.dispensaries.org/)

[Torplexed]

What do they say, "necessity is the mother of all invention"?

Very true. The Germans captured their first snorkel examples from the Dutch when they overran the Netherlands in 1940. It took the grevious losses being suffered from aircraft in 1942-43 before they starting installing them rather late in the war.

[Capt.LoneRanger]

It's really funny how people still think the German submarine fleet was the most advanced in the world, just because it was the most famous. :hmm:


Anyway - the Netherlands had been experimenting with the snorkel from 1938 on and Germany adopted that system for their boats. The basic problem about the modification was the stability of the snorkel. Even late-war-submarines had to drive rather slowly, not much faster than 6kts to not damage the tube and it was very vulnerable in rough sea.

For the US, this was simply not practicable. They experimented with the system, but refit-programs were only initiated after the war, accompanied with larger refit-programs for the submarine-fleet, including projects to modify the hull for this purpose, to eliminate the drawbacks.

[IRONxMortlock]

It's really funny how people still think the German submarine fleet was the most advanced in the world, just because it was the most famous. :hmm:


Anyway - the Netherlands had been experimenting with the snorkel from 1938 on and Germany adopted that system for their boats. The basic problem about the modification was the stability of the snorkel. Even late-war-submarines had to drive rather slowly, not much faster than 6kts to not damage the tube and it was very vulnerable in rough sea.

For the US, this was simply not practicable. They experimented with the system, but refit-programs were only initiated after the war, accompanied with larger refit-programs for the submarine-fleet, including projects to modify the hull for this purpose, to eliminate the drawbacks.

Yes, but you have to admit that having their u-boats constantly sunk by aircraft was a huge incentive for the German navy to more rapidly install and use devices such as the snorkle. The US had far less need for it.

Also, don't forget the Type XXI. Revoultionary for its day and the first true submarine.
________
GisseleVogue (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/GisseleVogue/)

[nattydread]

What do they say, "necessity is the mother of all invention"?

Except for this perhaps...
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/811/japaneseinventionvx5.jpg

Dude! No one even asked the obvious....What the hell are those?!?!?!

[mookiemookie]

What do they say, "necessity is the mother of all invention"?

Except for this perhaps...
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/811/japaneseinventionvx5.jpg
Dude! No one even asked the obvious....What the hell are those?!?!?!

Beach glasses? Everywhere looks like it's covered in beach sand? :hmm:

[Capt.LoneRanger]

It's really funny how people still think the German submarine fleet was the most advanced in the world, just because it was the most famous. :hmm:


Anyway - the Netherlands had been experimenting with the snorkel from 1938 on and Germany adopted that system for their boats. The basic problem about the modification was the stability of the snorkel. Even late-war-submarines had to drive rather slowly, not much faster than 6kts to not damage the tube and it was very vulnerable in rough sea.

For the US, this was simply not practicable. They experimented with the system, but refit-programs were only initiated after the war, accompanied with larger refit-programs for the submarine-fleet, including projects to modify the hull for this purpose, to eliminate the drawbacks.

Yes, but you have to admit that having their u-boats constantly sunk by aircraft was a huge incentive for the German navy to more rapidly install and use devices such as the snorkle. The US had far less need for it.

Also, don't forget the Type XXI. Revoultionary for its day and the first true submarine.

Indeed, that is exactly what I said. The US-submarines were not less advanced because they didn't use snorkels. :know:


Of course I don't forget about the XXI - it was a great design, but honestly it was evolution, not revolution. It's snorkel, the radar, the active sonar, the 'stealth'-cover, even the batteries and the form of the hull were based on prior systems and other nations had more advanced designs in many areas, just not such an effective combination. Still, the XXI did by far not live up to it's expectations, even since it was a big surprise to the allies. Only 120 were built, only 2 actually were commited and even though they started their 'Feindfahrt' in June 1944, they didn't even manage to damage a single ship until the end of the war.

It was also no submarine in the todays sense of the word. It could stay dived a long time and even was able to recharge batteries while submerged and the air-filters aided to that. The problem however was, the snorkel was not suitable for higher speeds and higher waves and the engines consumed more fuel than when surfaced. So it could not complete a mission submerged in normal weather, which is the qualification for a real submarine, opposing a dive-boat.

The submarine-fleet operating with the I400, however, was enroute from Japan through the Indian-Ocean and the complete Atlantik and was about to strike the Panama-Channel in 1945, with the 6 bombers of the 2 subcarriers, each able to carry 800kg of bombs. And they were only stopped because Japan had surrendered a few days before the attack. The teams inspecting the German submarines were called back to inspect the Japanese subs and they were astonished by the equipment and technology, that surpassed anything they'd seen so far. But, well, what do they know...;)

[IRONxMortlock]

Beach glasses? Everywhere looks like it's covered in beach sand? :hmm:
life's a beach hey?;)
________
How to roll a joint (http://howtorollajoint.net/)

[Capt.LoneRanger]

Better this way than sand in the eye. :D

[Hartmann]

XXi don´t sink nothing but...

"

The destination for that patrol was to be the Caribbean, where the boat would be tested under all conditions. On 1 May, U-2511 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=2511) made first enemy contact. Three days later, on 4 May, Adalbert Schnee (http://uboat.net/men/schnee.htm) received the cease-fire order. A few hours later U-2511 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=2511) made contact with the British cruiser HMS Norfolk among some other British warships. The boat approached to within 500 meters of the British warship without any sonar contact from the enemy destroyers. Schnee had here the opportunity to make an absolutely deadly attack against the cruiser, but left the scene without attacking and headed back to base. U-2511 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=2511) reached Bergen on 5 May, 1945. There the commander spoke with officers of the HMS Norfolk a few days later, and they found it unbelievable that U-2511 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=2511) was able to get so close without any sonar contact.

[Barkhorn1x]

XXi don´t sink nothing but...

"

The destination for that patrol was to be the Caribbean, where the boat would be tested under all conditions. On 1 May, U-2511 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=2511) made first enemy contact. Three days later, on 4 May, Adalbert Schnee (http://uboat.net/men/schnee.htm) received the cease-fire order. A few hours later U-2511 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=2511) made contact with the British cruiser HMS Norfolk among some other British warships. The boat approached to within 500 meters of the British warship without any sonar contact from the enemy destroyers. Schnee had here the opportunity to make an absolutely deadly attack against the cruiser, but left the scene without attacking and headed back to base. U-2511 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=2511) reached Bergen on 5 May, 1945. There the commander spoke with officers of the HMS Norfolk a few days later, and they found it unbelievable that U-2511 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=2511) was able to get so close without any sonar contact.

Nice story. Still way too little, way too late. The Germans needed the Type XXI in QUANTITY in the spring of '43. Not a dozen subs in training in the spring of '45. :roll:

Barkhorn.

[geetrue]

Yes, but you have to admit that having their u-boats constantly sunk by aircraft was a huge incentive for the German navy to more rapidly install and use devices such as the snorkle. The US had far less need for it.

Also, don't forget the Type XXI. Revoultionary for its day and the first true submarine.

But how do you know, for sure, that they really were sunk ...:roll:

They may have escaped to Argentina and be hidding in a cave near the sea, waiting
for their great granchildren to pick up the Iron Cross and do it all over again. :yep:

We can't trust history till all of the facts are in ... :)

[Capt.LoneRanger]

XXi don´t sink nothing but...

"

The destination for that patrol was to be the Caribbean, where the boat would be tested under all conditions. On 1 May, U-2511 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=2511) made first enemy contact. Three days later, on 4 May, Adalbert Schnee (http://uboat.net/men/schnee.htm) received the cease-fire order. A few hours later U-2511 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=2511) made contact with the British cruiser HMS Norfolk among some other British warships. The boat approached to within 500 meters of the British warship without any sonar contact from the enemy destroyers. Schnee had here the opportunity to make an absolutely deadly attack against the cruiser, but left the scene without attacking and headed back to base. U-2511 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=2511) reached Bergen on 5 May, 1945. There the commander spoke with officers of the HMS Norfolk a few days later, and they found it unbelievable that U-2511 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=2511) was able to get so close without any sonar contact.
:lol:

True except one little detail: This was the second encounter of an enemy taskforce. I know, you have to dig deeper than Wikipedia-Tales, but infact the first contact was in war-time against a sub-hunting-group and U-2511 was detected immedately and long before it was in firing range. It was hunted down by the battlegroup, but surprised by the submerged speed and range, they lost contact and didn't get a DC close enough to the boat to cause a harm.
After the war was over, he made a mock attack on the cruiser, but Schnee noted, this was no real test, as the enemy was no longer on alert.

:know:

[Harry Buttle]

Nice story. Still way too little, way too late. The Germans needed the Type XXI in QUANTITY in the spring of '43. Not a dozen subs in training in the spring of '45. :roll:

Barkhorn.

You can largely thank operation Gomorrah for that, it doubled the production time for u-boats in the main production centre (Hamburg, where roughly a third of all boats were made).

[Capt.LoneRanger]

Nope. You can directly say thanks to Hitler. As with the Me262, he didn't realize the advantage of the new technology and postponed the production and development until it was too late for those to really be effective. In the weird mind of Mr.Hitler, it was way more important to launch those rockets over to England and send out more medicore submarines, planes and tanks, to hope for a surrender.

Military speaking, Hitler was a complete idiot. :88)

[mookiemookie]

Nope. You can directly say thanks to Hitler. As with the Me262, he didn't realize the advantage of the new technology and postponed the production and development until it was too late for those to really be effective. In the weird mind of Mr.Hitler, it was way more important to launch those rockets over to England and send out more medicore submarines, planes and tanks, to hope for a surrender.

Military speaking, Hitler was a complete idiot. :88)
I agree with your assessment of why the XXI wasn't available. From what I've read, they had the XXI perfected on paper in early 1943 but didn't actually put it into production as soon as they could have since they figured the war would be won by the time it went into production and they wouldn't have needed it.

I do disagree with your earlier post though. True they had "put it all together" in terms of existing sub developments and didn't come up with anything that wasn't thought of before. But I think if you look at it in a historical context instead of comparing it to modern subs, or even Cold War subs, it was indeed a breakthrough compared to what was considered "state of the art" in the sub technology of the time. But hey, I could be wrong. Looking at two sides of the same coin I guess. ;)

</thread hijack>

[Harry Buttle]

Nope. You can directly say thanks to Hitler. As with the Me262, he didn't realize the advantage of the new technology and postponed the production and development until it was too late for those to really be effective. In the weird mind of Mr.Hitler, it was way more important to launch those rockets over to England and send out more medicore submarines, planes and tanks, to hope for a surrender.

Military speaking, Hitler was a complete idiot. :88)

yet the subs he was producing and the advanced ones he finally did make all had their production time doubled by Op Gomorrah.

[LukeFF]

A very big part of the delay in sending out the Type XXI into action was the training time needed. It took an averge of 6-7 months to train a crew on the type, given that a whole new set of attack tactics had to be taught and perfected before going out to sea. This, as well, was a problem as well with the Me 262 - flying and fighting in a jet fighter was a totally new thing for German pilots. Combine in the fact that a lot of these submariners in 44-45 would have been relatively inexperienced, and it becomes more clear why the Type XXI barely made it into combat before war's end.

[Torplexed]

American subs had air search radar sets almost from the begining of the war and got better ones as it progressed. Being able to pick up aircraft with plenty of time to spare to dive probably killed much incentive for exploring alternate underwater propulsion methods. Plus, we never had to face the sort of saturation aircover the Germans did in the Atlantic.

[mookiemookie]

American subs had air search radar sets almost from the begining of the war and got better ones as it progressed. Being able to pick up aircraft with plenty of time to spare to dive probably killed much incentive for exploring alternate underwater propulsion methods. Plus, we never had to face the sort of saturation aircover the Germans did in the Atlantic.

I friggin love your sig :rock::up:

[flyingdane]

American subs had air search radar sets almost from the begining of the war and got better ones as it progressed. Being able to pick up aircraft with plenty of time to spare to dive probably killed much incentive for exploring alternate underwater propulsion methods. Plus, we never had to face the sort of saturation aircover the Germans did in the Atlantic.

Whoo...Man thats cool. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/flyingdane/thsmilie_winner1.gif

[Torplexed]

Thanks you two! :cool: Think I'm gonna have to shrink it a little. Big and obnoxious as always :oops: