What about SH4 improvements that really count?

[nvdrifter]

Ok, I've heard that SH4 will have prettier graphics, prettier graphics, prettier graphics, prettier graphics, and prettier graphics. To make my point short, the focus has been mostly on improved graphics (plus some talk of UI, lifeboats, rescue missions, and more radio traffic). But what about improvements that really count, such as gameplay? I am talking about improved ai, improved realism, small and important gameplay details, etc. There has been very little mention of this that I have seen. I know that pretty graphics sell games, but graphics alone do not make a game enjoyable. It appears that the developers may have put too much time and effort focusing on pretty external graphics, while possibly neglecting important gameplay features. I can't say for sure because I don't have SH4 yet, and I hope I'm wrong. Playing the game using free roam camera isn't exactly important if it sacrifices realistic gameplay development. Silent Hunter is supposed to be a simulator, not a first person shooter. If SH4 were to be released so it could be easily modded, maybe I wouldn't be so concerned. But as I am a SH3 modder, I can say that there are too many important things hard-coded (such as ai behavior) in SH3. And I'm fairly sure SH4 will be released the same way. I guess all we can hope for is that they will release the SDK for SH3 so we can fix it right.

[nvdrifter]

I guess what I was trying to say in my first post is for everyone not to get too excited before we actually get our hands on the game. SH3 was and is a great game, but there were some big disappointments after it's half-finished release. Hopefully SH4 will be released more... ummm ... complete. Will SH4 be all fluff and no filling? We'll see... :shifty:

[Torplexed]

Only time will tell. :cool:

[flyingdane]

IT will have big shoes to fill but i think SH4 will top SH3 in more ways than graphics....Like better AI, better interface, better codeing and so on. ;)

[nvdrifter]

IT will have big shoes to fill but i think SH4 will top SH3 in more ways than graphics....Like better AI, better interface, better codeing and so on. ;)
I am starting to get concerned, because I am once again seeing some worrying and familiar signs in the pre-release of SH4 that were the same signs in other previously released sims that ended up being majorly unfinished let downs. By this I mean mostly the pre-release focus and excitement on new, improved, pretty graphics and crickets chirping silence regarding improved ai and realism features. But I hope you're right. ;)

[flyingdane]

Well the devs know that to top SH3 there has to be more then just looks or it will not sell as well. :smug:

[Captain Krunch]

The number one improvement to me is that the game is American subs back in the Pacific theater, just like the original Silent Hunter. No offense to those who prefer the German side of things, but I'm a huge fan of the American sub campaign, so SH4 is a very welcome effort to me.

In regards to the comments about prettier graphics, I say bring it on! Since I did not play either SH2 or SH3, the graphics we've been seeing in recent screenshots and videos, which are lightyears ahead of what SH1 had, are raising my excitment level tremendously. And to confirm this to myself, I just finished playing about an hour of SH1 via DosBox. My goodness, the graphics are bad. Sprites for ships, cartoon clouds and waves, and SVGA resolution (stretched on a widescreen LCD no less). UGH! I cannot wait to see my sub and the enemy ships in 3D; it's going to be fun. :D

As for gameplay, I can't imagine it being much worse than SH1, and that's still a very fun game, so if it ends up being as good as SH1, I'll be happy. From what I've read, it'll pretty much have all the gameplay features one would need to simulate a WWII sub in the Pacific. I've ready many biographies and books about the American sub force, and have many expectations of what a proper sub sim should be, yet I have no worries that Silent Hunter 4 will miss the boat (Pun intended).

Still, in the end, I'm getting a bit bothered by all this negativity. I don't think it's very proper to damn, or praise, the game before it's released. Let's give the developers the opportunity to succeed or fail on the merits of the final product, not screenshots or videos of pre-release builds.

[nvdrifter]

The number one improvement to me is that the game is American subs back in the Pacific theater, just like the original Silent Hunter. No offense to those who prefer the German side of things, but I'm a huge fan of the American sub campaign, so SH4 is a very welcome effort to me.

In regards to the comments about prettier graphics, I say bring it on! Since I did not play either SH2 or SH3, the graphics we've been seeing in recent screenshots and videos, which are lightyears ahead of what SH1 had, are raising my excitment level tremendously. And to confirm this to myself, I just finished playing about an hour of SH1 via DosBox. My goodness, the graphics are bad. Sprites for ships, cartoon clouds and waves, and SVGA resolution (stretched on a widescreen LCD no less). UGH! I cannot wait to see my sub and the enemy ships in 3D; it's going to be fun. :D

As for gameplay, I can't imagine it being much worse than SH1, and that's still a very fun game, so if it ends up being as good as SH1, I'll be happy. From what I've read, it'll pretty much have all the gameplay features one would need to simulate a WWII sub in the Pacific. I've ready many biographies and books about the American sub force, and have many expectations of what a proper sub sim should be, yet I have no worries that Silent Hunter 4 will miss the boat (Pun intended).

Still, in the end, I'm getting a bit bothered by all this negativity. I don't think it's very proper to damn, or praise, the game before it's released. Let's give the developers the opportunity to succeed or fail on the merits of the final product, not screenshots or videos of pre-release builds.

Good post. But I am not 'damning' SH4 before it 's released. All I am saying is that I am getting worried with all the focus on prettier graphics and very little mention of realism and gameplay improvements. I have followed a lot of pre-released sims that were released unfinished and had poor gameplay due to too much focus on developing pretty graphics. And I hate to say this, but it looks like SH4 is following the same path. I could be wrong, and I hope I am. But the only thing that saved SH3 was the modding community. But there are limits to what modders can fix.

[THE_MASK]

After SH4 where is there to go in the series . Nowhere , so release the SDK and the subsim community can mod SH4 and SH3 and the game will last and sell for years .

[The Noob]

After SH4 where is there to go in the series
Modern times like dangerous waters? :hmm:

[THE_MASK]

An add-on for SH4 to complete the world and include germany and britain would be nice . Getting back to the thread , i read on a review how the AI is now Quote " super intelligent". or something to that effect .

[Aimbot]

Still, in the end, I'm getting a bit bothered by all this negativity. I don't think it's very proper to damn, or praise, the game before it's released. Let's give the developers the opportunity to succeed or fail on the merits of the final product, not screenshots or videos of pre-release builds.
This happens on every forum for a sequel to a video game series. The OP is being perfectly reasonable, but there is a martyr complex that a vocal minority of any long standing video game series always will have. I don't see why this game would be any different.
"Why doesn't [X] have [Y]?! Everyone wants [Y]! They're just dumbing down gameplay and ratcheting up the graphics to snag the main stream gamer! I'll never spend my money on this crap, but I'm still the one and only authority of the quality of the game. If you buy the product you have personally offended me and have no taste."

They've mentioned the interface more often than I could say, and they've supposedly included many more ships than there were in III. It looks like the atmosphere within the sub has improved, we've seen screens of crew members knocked off their feet and the crew management is improved, as is damage control. It looks promising to me.

[Capt.LoneRanger]

Well, to be honest it is not like the eyecandy is just a gimmik for this game. Considering the hardcoded limited visibility of 5km in SH3, I think this "eyecandy" shown in SH4 is more than just to please the eye.

Besides that, the screenies show different other things, that are not pure eyecandy: Very detailed damage-modell with different system and repair-queue with priorities, completely reworked crew management, functional systems modelled and readable from the interior view, even without actually jumping to the station, ability to participate in historical engagements and landing operations, reassigning of missions while at sea, ability to follow not mission-critical information to earn some extra points (e.g. for rescuing aircrews, even if not assigned to that task, when operating in a combat or airstrike-area), different mission-objectives, refuel and rearm at sea,....


I agree, that I'd very much like to see the US submarine groups of 4-5 move and engage together, to hunt down and engage the famous and most advanced Japanese submarines, like the I400-the famous submarine aircraft-carrier, etc... and also that I'm wondering if the crew really stands talking on the deck, while their ship is torn in two, etc.
But then, we also have little information on the positive side. In one of the previews it was stated they rescued a crew from a sunk ship and got the credits, even if it was no mission goal, for example.

There's just to little information, yet, to really have a reason to panic.

[Aimbot]

Be careful what you wish for regarding the crew of ships. The biggest advantage this game has in terms of performance is that it focuses on a few large and relatively static objects. They move, but little on the ship actually does. You animate a dozen or so sailors on a ship in a complex way and the framerate won't drop noticably, but what happens when you run into a large convoy. Suddenly not only is your computer projecting a highly dynamic backdrop, the sea, and a series of eplosions and activity, but also a hundred or so individual sailers running around on the decks. And they all have to change behavior whn something happens. And they all have to have seperate actions and paths, so it doesn't look like a coreographed Broadway musical. And so on, and so on.

[Reece]

I'm sure that SH4 will have improved gameplay, such as sensors, the issues with uber dd's & dc's dropping with pinpoint accuracy (even in 1939), sonar, etc are problems that I would like fixed, another is when your TC drops back to 1x your sub has been bombed then the WO says "Aircraft", no kidding! down I go!!:rotfl:There have been so many complaints with this sort of thing that I'm sure the problems would have been addressed, especially since the engine is basically the same.:yep:
Cheers.

[Buggins]

Aside from the fantastic new graphics the thing I am most interested in, and have been most excited by is the expanded dynamic campaign, which we have heard a reasonable amount about. The idea of getting non standard missions, and indeed getting any kind of instruction aside from 'Go to point A' 'Convoy at point B' along with enhanced radio chatter, nets/mines etc, dynamic harbours. All othese things seem like big improvements over the occasionally sterile SH3, the eye candy is just a pleasant extra!

[Mush Martin]

The number one improvement to me is that the game is American subs back in the Pacific theater, just like the original Silent Hunter. No offense to those who prefer the German side of things, but I'm a huge fan of the American sub campaign, so SH4 is a very welcome effort to me.


I grew to love Pre atomic submersible warfare twenty years ago almost
by playing silent service and reading Undersea victory as my first text
on the subject as a History book it had the virtue of reading better than
most fiction. However I became enthralled with the subject and both
Campaigns were Incredibly titanic. Gargantuan efforts

the whole thing is incredible to discover and Although I started On the
american campaign I cant limit myself to just it. The story of the
Battle of the Atlantic is amazing as a subject unto itself also

thats what makes the whole study of early submarine warfare so good
the wealth and richness and depth of it. there are so many aspects
that influenced the outcomes of the Three major strategic sub campaigns
of History.


in short.

SH5 should have Alled and Axis Driveable subs and surface ships
AI subs and surface ships and be available from 1937 from 1946
World wide with US, UK, Cdn,Italian,French, German, Russian, Japanese
Chinese,Brazilian, and other Home playable combatant
countries this would be a plus for Ubi
as it would only have to pay for one dev to cover the both markets
Destroyer guys and sub guys. doubling sales and lowering overhead
and it would pull the genre out of
enland and make it a Global game, Further Campaigning online
would be much improved. including built in VOIP interceptable
radio.
with an SDK released as the gold edition bonus prize.
player and AI weaps should be interchangeable
Torpedo bombers are essetnial.
MM

wadda ya think.....................................

[edit] ooopps I forgot to include the flyboys.
That would be cool online a player captain of a carrier ordering
a player pilot off the deck to respond to a player sub spotted
by an ai convoy and player frigates detaching to the contact.

yeah I can see it now!.

[theluckyone17]

Be careful what you wish for regarding the crew of ships. The biggest advantage this game has in terms of performance is that it focuses on a few large and relatively static objects. They move, but little on the ship actually does. You animate a dozen or so sailors on a ship in a complex way and the framerate won't drop noticably, but what happens when you run into a large convoy. Suddenly not only is your computer projecting a highly dynamic backdrop, the sea, and a series of eplosions and activity, but also a hundred or so individual sailers running around on the decks. And they all have to change behavior whn something happens. And they all have to have seperate actions and paths, so it doesn't look like a coreographed Broadway musical. And so on, and so on.

There's a concept called "LOD" - Level Of Detail, I believe. The idea being, that the system only draws what's actually in visual range. I imagine it'd be kinda hard to see individual sailors at a distance. So SHIV only needs to "keep track" of sailors on ships that are within a certain range of the sub. Then, it only needs to draw the sailors that are within the viewing range, and not hidden by superstructure or the like. Ships that are sunk at a distant range can skip the crew running around and just go directly to creating the lifeboats.

Falcon 4.0 pulled something like this off... at a distant range, groups of tanks/aircraft/etc. were bunched together, and acted under a "group AI". Once the player reached a certain range, the bunch was unbunched, and each individual AI took over.

So it could be doable... question is, whether the dev's had enough time & desire to implement something on this scale.

[TDK1044]

For me, the Devs deserve a lot of credit here. Dan and his team have worked very hard at taking a WWII sub sim to the next level. They have listened to and acted upon various opinions expressed in this and other Forums, and I believe that most fair minded people will give them the praise that they are certainly due when the game is released.

Silent Hunter 4 won't please everyone in every way, how could it? But I honestly believe that we will see significant improvements over Silent Hunter 3 in gameplay and graphical appearance.

So let's try and keep a sense fairness and common sense when the game is released, and not start nit picking about cosmetics. I think that this time the modders will be making subjective enhancements to the game rather than trying to fix it.

:D

[Mush Martin]

For me, the Devs deserve a lot of credit here. Dan and his team have worked very hard at taking a WWII sub sim to the next level. They have listened to and acted upon various opinions expressed in this and other Forums, and I believe that most fair minded people will give them the praise that they are certainly due when the game is released.

Silent Hunter 4 won't please everyone in every way, how could it? But I honestly believe that we will see significant improvements over Silent Hunter 3 in gameplay and graphical appearance.

So let's try and keep a sense fairness and common sense when the game is released, and not start nit picking about cosmetics. I think that this time the modders will be making subjective enhancements to the game rather than trying to fix it.

:D

Its because theyve been so responsive and listened to the community
that Im starting to frame up 5 now.LOL

[Iron Budokan]

Here's my prediction. I think the improved gameplay will surprise everyone. The downer will come when gamers say, "Hey, my game doesn't look as eye-candy pretty as the uber-cool photos released by UBI."

And it won't. A lot of those in-game photos have been obviously tweaked for dramatic purposes.

Anyway, please remember the devs have said SH4 is built on an SH3 engine. There's only so much you can do with that. Please, don't get me wrong. I'm very eager to get my hot little hands on this game. I've already pre-ordered it like most people on this board. And if some elements in the game do suck canal water then I'm sure our superior modder community will do everything they can to correct those problems....

Finally, SH5 will be about German subs. SH3 sold too well for UBI not to return to that well once more....

[IRONxMortlock]

I'm kind of in the same mind as the OP. I'm worried about this game and I feel it has been rushed and will be released with a litany of problems. A month ago when Neil had a little shot at it the game it didn't seem like it was even close to being ready to go. A month prior to release everything should be running very smoothly and just small bugs should need ironing out. Neil's preview made it seem as though the game was largely incomplete.

We'll see soon enough I guess but I really don't have my hopes up.

Thank God for GWX!
:p
________
xNAUGHTYNAOMIx (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/xNAUGHTYNAOMIx/)

[Janus]

I'm kind of in the same mind as the OP. I'm worried about this game and I feel it has been rushed and will be released with a litany of problems. A month ago when Neil had a little shot at it the game it didn't seem like it was even close to being ready to go. A month prior to release everything should be running very smoothly and just small bugs should need ironing out. Neil's preview made it seem as though the game was largely incomplete. I am sorry to say that, but this seems to become best practice among game/sim developers. There are many examples.

I wonder when the point will be there when we - the customers - react and say: stop this, we want finished products with decent documentation. I am willing to pay more for this when the gameplay and stuff ensures a reasonable long time motivation...

The downer will come when gamers say, "Hey, my game doesn't look as eye-candy pretty as the uber-cool photos released by UBI."

And it won't. A lot of those in-game photos have been obviously tweaked for dramatic purposes. Another thing that is commonly done in the game industry, pimping the preview-screenshots.

I am not very looking forward to SHIV, I don't want to be disappointed again like with SHIII...

[Snakeeyes]

IT will have big shoes to fill but i think SH4 will top SH3 in more ways than graphics....Like better AI, better interface, better codeing and so on. ;)
I am starting to get concerned, because I am once again seeing some worrying and familiar signs in the pre-release of SH4 that were the same signs in other previously released sims that ended up being majorly unfinished let downs. By this I mean mostly the pre-release focus and excitement on new, improved, pretty graphics and crickets chirping silence regarding improved ai and realism features. But I hope you're right. ;)

Yeah, amen to that. It did seem that SH4 came out damn fast but who am I to complain? Looking at the staff and how they reach out to the community they should KNOW that if they crap on their serious fan-base (that would be us) down goes their profits. I'm not worried. It's going to kick ass in terms of realism AND looks. You'll see.

[John Channing]

IT will have big shoes to fill but i think SH4 will top SH3 in more ways than graphics....Like better AI, better interface, better codeing and so on. ;)
I am starting to get concerned, because I am once again seeing some worrying and familiar signs in the pre-release of SH4 that were the same signs in other previously released sims that ended up being majorly unfinished let downs. By this I mean mostly the pre-release focus and excitement on new, improved, pretty graphics and crickets chirping silence regarding improved ai and realism features. But I hope you're right. ;)

Yeah, amen to that. It did seem that SH4 came out damn fast but who am I to complain? Looking at the staff and how they reach out to the community they should KNOW that if they crap on their serious fan-base (that would be us) down goes their profits. I'm not worried. It's going to kick ass in terms of realism AND looks. You'll see.


Just to keep things in perspective regarding the "serious fan-base"...

There are 8,595 registered users here at Subsim.com. Now not all of them are devotees of the Silent Hunter franchise, but for the sake of arguement let's say they are.

Silent Hunter III sold over 300,000 copies.

That means we represent, at best, 2.8% of total sales.

Everytime I start getting taken with my own sense of self-importance I like to remind myself of this.

JCC

[Captain Krunch]

I'm kind of in the same mind as the OP. I'm worried about this game and I feel it has been rushed and will be released with a litany of problems.
See, I just don't get this attitude. How can you say it's been rushed when it hasn't even been released yet? And what are these "litany of problems" you are speaking of?

A month ago when Neal had a little shot at it the game it didn't seem like it was even close to being ready to go. A month prior to release everything should be running very smoothly and just small bugs should need ironing out. Neal's preview made it seem as though the game was largely incomplete.
Goodness gracious, did we read the same preview? Neal did state that certain features from prior versions were missing, but he made it clear that these were design decisions on the part of the developers, not that the game wasn't ready. I just skimmed through the preview again, and he makes the game sound like it's going to be quite good, not that it's incomplete.

[John Channing]

I'm kind of in the same mind as the OP. I'm worried about this game and I feel it has been rushed and will be released with a litany of problems.
See, I just don't get this attitude. How can you say it's been rushed when it hasn't even been released yet? And what are these "litany of problems" you are speaking of?

A month ago when Neil had a little shot at it the game it didn't seem like it was even close to being ready to go. A month prior to release everything should be running very smoothly and just small bugs should need ironing out. Neil's preview made it seem as though the game was largely incomplete.
Goodness gracious, did we read the same preview? Neil did state that certain features from prior versions were missing, but he made it clear that these were design decisions on the part of the developers, not that the game wasn't ready. I just skimmed through the preview again, and he makes the game sound like it's going to be quite good, not that it's incomplete.

It's Neal, not Neil.

Neal, like... ummmmm... ahhhh... well, Neal.

JCC

[Onkel Neal]

I guess what I was trying to say in my first post is for everyone not to get too excited before we actually get our hands on the game. SH3 was and is a great game, but there were some big disappointments after it's half-finished release. Hopefully SH4 will be released more... ummm ... complete. Will SH4 be all fluff and no filling? We'll see... :shifty:

Well said, we will see soon.

[fumblyoldcarpenter]

I am not very looking forward to SHIV, I don't want to be disappointed again like with SHIII...

As had been said...... SH3 ( even with its bugs ) was a major improvement over SH2, at the end of the day who will be truly satisfied anyway:o

[Janus]

I am not very looking forward to SHIV, I don't want to be disappointed again like with SHIII...
As had been said...... SH3 ( even with its bugs ) was a major improvement over SH2, at the end of the day who will be truly satisfied anyway:o I did not mean to say anything else but compared to the dev diarys, chats and promises before the release it was a big disappointment for me. To be fair I have to say that I became aware of SH3 just a few weeks before it's release (very similar situation like now with SH4 but I definately won't buy it as fast as SH3. Don't know if I will buy it at all :hmm:).

I have the feeling that SH4 brings the stuff that at least should have come with stock SH3, apart from the pacific theatre of course.

[Captain Krunch]

It's Neal, not Neil.

Neal, like... ummmmm... ahhhh... well, Neal.
D'oh! I should've known better. Consider me flogged. :arrgh!:

[THE_MASK]

Here is my prediction . SH4 will dissapoint some people before it is released .
SH4 will dissapoint less people after it is released .

[Seeadler]

If SHIV will be released unfinished or with major bugs don't blame the devs for it, it's in 98% not a decision by the devs when a software should be released. This decision is made mainly by people who really don't have an idea how devs should work but have the force to make this decision.

I work since 15 years as a software developer and know this proceeding very exactly :arrgh!:

[hyperion2206]

IT will have big shoes to fill but i think SH4 will top SH3 in more ways than graphics....Like better AI, better interface, better codeing and so on. ;)
I am starting to get concerned, because I am once again seeing some worrying and familiar signs in the pre-release of SH4 that were the same signs in other previously released sims that ended up being majorly unfinished let downs. By this I mean mostly the pre-release focus and excitement on new, improved, pretty graphics and crickets chirping silence regarding improved ai and realism features. But I hope you're right. ;)
Yeah, amen to that. It did seem that SH4 came out damn fast but who am I to complain? Looking at the staff and how they reach out to the community they should KNOW that if they crap on their serious fan-base (that would be us) down goes their profits. I'm not worried. It's going to kick ass in terms of realism AND looks. You'll see.

Just to keep things in perspective regarding the "serious fan-base"...

There are 8,595 registered users here at Subsim.com. Now not all of them are devotees of the Silent Hunter franchise, but for the sake of arguement let's say they are.

Silent Hunter III sold over 300,000 copies.

That means we represent, at best, 2.8% of total sales.

Everytime I start getting taken with my own sense of self-importance I like to remind myself of this.

JCC

We might be a small community but we're important enough that the German reatil box of Dangerous Waters had recommendations of subsim on the front and the rear. Again, we might be a small community but many of the users are in the know, which IMHO preponderates.

[Charos]

Beware of strangers baring eye candy. :88)


http://www.subsim.com/almanac/index_subsim.htm (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/../almanac/index_subsim.htm)

"Silent Hunter III Captain’s Log by Florin Boitor, Executive Producer

I made a trip to San Francisco in November 2002 for some meetings about SH3. The meetings were not exactly what I expected. I soon realized that our excitement about the project was really not matched by the guys from the Ubi SF office. But, were we talking about a pure simulation? Not at that meeting. What was discussed was mainly how to develop an action simulation game with submarines. Well, "Gran Turismo on the sea" was the closest match. Their idea was to attract as many gamers as possible from outside the traditional sim fans pool because the conclusion was that "they (sim fans) will buy it anyway".

http://www.subsim.com/ssr/sh4/sh4_interview1.php (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/../ssr/sh4/sh4_interview1.php)

"Producer Florin Boitor has struck out on his own now."

:hmm:

[fredbass]

[There are 8,595 registered users here at Subsim.com. Now not all of them are devotees of the Silent Hunter franchise, but for the sake of arguement let's say they are.

Silent Hunter III sold over 300,000 copies.

That means we represent, at best, 2.8% of total sales.

Don't forget that for every registered member that is currently on this forum, there are many many more who haven't registered and come here frequently.

[John Channing]

[There are 8,595 registered users here at Subsim.com. Now not all of them are devotees of the Silent Hunter franchise, but for the sake of arguement let's say they are.

Silent Hunter III sold over 300,000 copies.

That means we represent, at best, 2.8% of total sales.

Don't forget that for every registered member that is currently on this forum, there are many many more who haven't registered and come here frequently.



I am not sure how you come to the conclusion that for "every registered member that is currently on this forum, there are many many more who haven't registered and come here frequently " as that would be an impossible stat to prove, but that's why I counted every registered member as a buyer. Clearly this is not the case.

It is also probable that the guests come here after purchasing the sim looking for tips and not because they are among the "hardcore" (gawd how I hate that term) enthusiasts.

JCC

[kylania]

The big thing for me I think will be the "crew shifts" feature. I know moving those lil guys around the uboats was a pain in SH3. It'll be nice to be able to assign shifts to crewmen and not have to worry about manually changing out 40+ sailors every few minutes.

I'm so-so about the Pacific theater though. SHIII was the first game I've played seriously from this series and I'm a huge u-boat fan so it was darn near perfect for me. I'm simply not familar with the US side of things really.

I'm also just tickled that my list of "what I want in the box" was fulfilled almost perfectly! Well done to Ubi for that, even if it's costing me an arm and a leg for it.

[hyperion2206]

[There are 8,595 registered users here at Subsim.com. Now not all of them are devotees of the Silent Hunter franchise, but for the sake of arguement let's say they are.

Silent Hunter III sold over 300,000 copies.

That means we represent, at best, 2.8% of total sales.
Don't forget that for every registered member that is currently on this forum, there are many many more who haven't registered and come here frequently.


I am not sure how you come to the conclusion that for "every registered member that is currently on this forum, there are many many more who haven't registered and come here frequently " as that would be an impossible stat to prove, but that's why I counted every registered member as a buyer. Clearly this is not the case.

It is also probable that the guests come here after purchasing the sim looking for tips and not because they are among the "hardcore" (gawd how I hate that term) enthusiasts.

JCC

Whenever I visit this site there are about 150+ members and about 600 stowaways/visitors online. I guess it's quite safe to assume that many of them visit the site regularly because I doubt that everyday 600 new people discover this site. I also assume that some of these visitors will eventually buy SH4. So there's a kind of dark figure how many people who visit subsim will buy SH4.;)

[Captain Krunch]

I'm so-so about the Pacific theater though. SHIII was the first game I've played seriously from this series and I'm a huge u-boat fan so it was darn near perfect for me. I'm simply not familar with the US side of things really.
And there's nothing wrong with this. I'm 180 degrees from you; I enjoy US subs in the Pacific, but have very little interest in the Battle of Atlantic. That being said, I went ahead and purchased SH3 when it came out to show my support for the sub-sim genre, yet have played no more than 10 minutes of the game. Yet I'll be playing SH4 for many hours to come. Strange how that works, huh?

[Janus]

This decision is made mainly by people who really don't have an idea how devs should work but have the force to make this decision.

I work since 15 years as a software developer and know this proceeding very exactly :arrgh!: Yes it's all about lacking management support for the devs. However I wonder what the output (better documentation, less bugs in initial release -> less bugfixes afterwards, more functions?) would be even if the developers would get more time to develop.

Damn I think this thread already got me so far to buy SHIV straight away.
I doubt that there will be a demo?

[flintlock]

Ubi has stated there is no time for a demo within the development schedule.

[Snakeeyes]

IT will have big shoes to fill but i think SH4 will top SH3 in more ways than graphics....Like better AI, better interface, better codeing and so on. ;)
I am starting to get concerned, because I am once again seeing some worrying and familiar signs in the pre-release of SH4 that were the same signs in other previously released sims that ended up being majorly unfinished let downs. By this I mean mostly the pre-release focus and excitement on new, improved, pretty graphics and crickets chirping silence regarding improved ai and realism features. But I hope you're right. ;)
Yeah, amen to that. It did seem that SH4 came out damn fast but who am I to complain? Looking at the staff and how they reach out to the community they should KNOW that if they crap on their serious fan-base (that would be us) down goes their profits. I'm not worried. It's going to kick ass in terms of realism AND looks. You'll see.

Just to keep things in perspective regarding the "serious fan-base"...

There are 8,595 registered users here at Subsim.com. Now not all of them are devotees of the Silent Hunter franchise, but for the sake of arguement let's say they are.

Silent Hunter III sold over 300,000 copies.

That means we represent, at best, 2.8% of total sales.

Everytime I start getting taken with my own sense of self-importance I like to remind myself of this.

JCC

Just remember... we are the most VOCAL of any sub group out there.

STILL... if Ubisoft decides to take SH like they did with Rainbow 6 and make it a dumbed-down eye candy we have a problem.

[nvdrifter]

I didn't start this thread to bash SH4 or the developers. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. I am still trying to be hopeful, but I am just going by what I have seen all too much in the past with other sims... focus on pretty graphics, overlook or skip major gameplay/ realism features, rush game, fix some of the bugs later with a patch or two, then start developing the next sim. It's a pattern that's all too common. And yes, Ubisoft is in business to make money, and the best way to do that is to focus on pretty graphics. These days, flashy graphics sell games... period. Good, realistic gameplay be damned. Sadly, hard core, realism nut simmers are only a small precentage of their customer base. Most players who buy and play SH4 won't even know the difference between what is realistic and what isn't. I am still hoping they release the sdk for SH3 and make SH4 less hard-coded. Here's hoping. :sunny:

[Navarre]

Just remember... we are the most VOCAL of any sub group out there.

STILL... if Ubisoft decides to take SH like they did with Rainbow 6 and make it a dumbed-down eye candy we have a problem.
Related to this Rainbow 6 disaster, some weeks ago we had here in Germany a big protest campaign against Ubisoft and the leaders of this protest were invited to the German head office of Ubisoft for a clarifying discussion.

At this discussion it turned out (among other things) that for the Ubisoft's main office in Paris, the PC gaming sector is only a subordinated role, an evil which brings not much money. Ubisoft makes the large business for the past few years in the consoles games market and it applies for this sector to develop further.

From Ubisoft third-quarter 2006-07 sales report:
http://www.ubisoftgroup.com/gallery_files/site/270/1042/1297.pdf

Breakdown of sale by plattform
- 9% DS
- 4% GBA
- 1% GameCube
- 14% PC/DVD Rom
- 15% PS2
- 5% PSP
- 21% Wii
- 2% XBox
- 28% XBox360
- 1% other

The PC gamers are only quite an insignificant customer group for Ubisoft and much more the subsimmer's of this group :shifty:

[Payoff]

Well that just about takes the wind out of our sails thinking we had some sort of leverage now doesnt it? Interesting post Navarre. :hmm:

[IRONxMortlock]

Just remember... we are the most VOCAL of any sub group out there.

STILL... if Ubisoft decides to take SH like they did with Rainbow 6 and make it a dumbed-down eye candy we have a problem.
Related to this Rainbow 6 disaster, some weeks ago we had here in Germany a big protest campaign against Ubisoft and the leaders of this protest were invited to the German head office of Ubisoft for a clarifying discussion.

At this discussion it turned out (among other things) that for the Ubisoft's main office in Paris, the PC gaming sector is only a subordinated role, an evil which brings not much money. Ubisoft makes the large business for the past few years in the consoles games market and it applies for this sector to develop further.

From Ubisoft third-quarter 2006-07 sales report:
http://www.ubisoftgroup.com/gallery_files/site/270/1042/1297.pdf

Breakdown of sale by plattform
- 9% DS
- 4% GBA
- 1% GameCube
- 14% PC/DVD Rom
- 15% PS2
- 5% PSP
- 21% Wii
- 2% XBox
- 28% XBox360
- 1% other

The PC gamers are only quite an insignificant customer group for Ubisoft and much more the subsimmer's of this group :shifty:

I dare any businessman to call 14% an "insignificant customer group".
________
WASHINGTON MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES (http://washington.dispensaries.org/)

[Shaffer4]

I dare any businessman to call 14% an "insignificant customer group".


Even French Businessmen? :|\\ "I Fart in your general direction!"



:rotfl:

[Shiplord]

Even French Businessmen?
Yves Guillemot CEO of Ubisoft:
2007 will be the year of new-generation consoles, with the rampup of the PLAYSTATION 3 and Xbox 360 systems. We will also see new consumers – particularly women – entering the market, drawn by the remarkable success of the Wii and the Nintendo DS. In 2007-08, Ubisoft will apply all of its expertise in order to leverage this full scope of opportunities, and thereby step up growth and considerably improve profitability.:know:

[fredbass]

[There are 8,595 registered users here at Subsim.com. Now not all of them are devotees of the Silent Hunter franchise, but for the sake of arguement let's say they are.

Silent Hunter III sold over 300,000 copies.

That means we represent, at best, 2.8% of total sales.
Don't forget that for every registered member that is currently on this forum, there are many many more who haven't registered and come here frequently.


I am not sure how you come to the conclusion that for "every registered member that is currently on this forum, there are many many more who haven't registered and come here frequently " as that would be an impossible stat to prove, but that's why I counted every registered member as a buyer. Clearly this is not the case.

It is also probable that the guests come here after purchasing the sim looking for tips and not because they are among the "hardcore" (gawd how I hate that term) enthusiasts.

JCC

Whenever I visit this site there are about 150+ members and about 600 stowaways/visitors online. I guess it's quite safe to assume that many of them visit the site regularly because I doubt that everyday 600 new people discover this site. I also assume that some of these visitors will eventually buy SH4. So there's a kind of dark figure how many people who visit subsim will buy SH4.;)

Precisely :yep:

[squigian]

And the most vocal usually get heard and their ideas implemented, even if they're wrong.

[Sailor Steve]

Sounds just like a democracy.

(sorry if that's too political)

[flintlock]

the most vocal usually get heard and their ideas implemented The old adage of the squeaky wheel gets the oil.