US accused on 'missing' prisoners

[flintlock]

Thirty eight people believed to have been held in secret CIA prisons - or black sites - are missing, according to a report by a US human rights group. The Human Rights Watch report also details allegations of torture by a terror suspect who was held in secret custody for more than two years.

US threatens EU



Meanwhile, the US has warned the European Union that ongoing inquiries into secret CIA flights within Europe linked to the black sites are threatening intelligence ties between Europe and the US.
Story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6405089.stm

[ASWnut101]

Thirty eight people believed to have been held in secret CIA prisons - or black sites - are missing, according to a report by a US human rights group. The Human Rights Watch report also details allegations of torture by a terror suspect who was held in secret custody for more than two years.



:rotfl: :rotfl: That's pretty funny. Where did people come up with this stuff?:roll:

[waste gate]

Thirty eight people believed to have been held in secret CIA prisons - or black sites - are missing, according to a report by a US human rights group. The Human Rights Watch report also details allegations of torture by a terror suspect who was held in secret custody for more than two years.

US threatens EU



Meanwhile, the US has warned the European Union that ongoing inquiries into secret CIA flights within Europe linked to the black sites are threatening intelligence ties between Europe and the US.
Story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6405089.stm




If all this is secret how do they know 38 people are missing? Perhaps its 38 million.

[flintlock]

If all this is secret how do they know 38 people are missing? Perhaps its 38 million. You're not really serious are you?

In case you are, the 38 missing are named. They know who they are, but not where they are or what's happened to them. The US state they no longer have them, but they seem to have simply vanished. Ongoing inquiries by the European Union into this has the US threating that if they don't stop with all the questions, intelligence ties between Europe and the US will be threatened.

[waste gate]

If all this is secret how do they know 38 people are missing? Perhaps its 38 million. You're not really serious are you?

In case you are, the 38 missing are named. They know who they are, but not where they are or what's happened to them. The US state they no longer have them, but they seem to have simply vanished. Ongoing inquiries by the European Union into this has the US threating that if they don't stop with all the questions, intelligence ties between Europe and the US will be threatened.

Well then, if you believe the report, then believe this, they are dead. Get over it.

[fatty]

This is quite sad. IIRC some aren't even formally charged, or wait several years before seeing a court. Here in Canada our Supreme Court just ruled against the government refusing to present evidence against detained foreigners. Really, I'm all for detaining terror suspects and enemy combatants, but these bottomless pits are way too easy to abuse.

[Skybird]

Currently Germany sees an ongoing parliamentary examination of a related case as well. And there is a living witness, he is known, and confesses in public. It does not matter if he is trustworthy in what he reports, or not, that he was illegally abducted is beyond doubt - even for the US government. The US did not reject. Not that I have sympathy for this Mr. Kurnaz, a turk who refused to become German and surely has sympathies for Islamic radicals and sought contact to them in Pakistan, he is a highly suspicious individual, if only you look deep enough into it. but I am really upset about the arrogant stupidity that is displayed by illegal abductions like those being done by the CIA - it created vulnerabilites in the West's moral arguments, and easily does more damage than what is gained in wins. It'S a pity, it makes things complicated, it is nerve-killing - but laws must be followed. An agency cannot just walk around and do like it pleases, in the name of this or that or whatever. the procedure must be legal according to the actual rules and laws. Else you expose your own credibility to criticism that your moral superiority is only a lie.

Which in these cases, unfortunately is true.

Stupid to allow that.

You can do such actions. But first change the laws, allowing that. Which means a farewell to another piece od democracy and freedom. You can't have everything, so you must decide if it is worth it, and then make a choice.

Such hearings like Kurnaz in Germany are currently run or are on ice in several European countries. If the US intel community now threatens to rethink intel ties to Europe, than this is ridiculous and completely pointless. There is no doubt that CIA floghts and abductions inside europe took place. It also is beyond doubt that often the suspects are flown to countries outside the Western sphere, where tirture is allowed and can be used without westerners being held responsible for it.

all what I want is that the game is called by it's real name. I'm sick and tired of the self-deceptions, the lies, and the empty phrases and the glossing over.

It is even more ridiculous that european governments and the EU as well critizised the US months ago for these practices, while meanwhile it turned out that all the time they knew, and sometimes even actively were engaged and supported ongoing CIA abduction operations and CIA flights.

[waste gate]

Well, Igues the world will have to adopt the US legal system if you want due process. The reason these individuals were detained in the EU is because US law prohibits them from being detained in the US. I wager your gov'ts don't want US doctrine.

[Letum]

Currently Germany sees an
[.....]
operations and CIA flights.


Spot on Skybird! http://www.b3tards.com/u/57a418c694bc7c6296b3/sky_and_the_birdsig.gif:up:

[SUBMAN1]

If all this is secret how do they know 38 people are missing? Perhaps its 38 million. You're not really serious are you?

In case you are, the 38 missing are named. They know who they are, but not where they are or what's happened to them. The US state they no longer have them, but they seem to have simply vanished. Ongoing inquiries by the European Union into this has the US threating that if they don't stop with all the questions, intelligence ties between Europe and the US will be threatened.
Exactly what I think - how do they know if it secret? The Mafia may have them for all we know. Al-Qeida may have excuted them for squeeling - and to me, this is the desirable scenario. Not a big deal. If the CIA spent the $$$ to abduct them in the first place, they probably had damn good reason to. You won't catch me crying too much. These are the same people helping people kill you. Tough times call for tough measures.

-S

[CCIP]

How do you know they are guilty of what they're being accused without due process having been afforded to them?

That's the heart of the matter and that's why it's rightly being criticized. It sets dangerous precedents.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

THEY ARE LIVING ON A ISLAND in the pacific :rotfl::rotfl:

with che guevera, saddam hussien, bin laden, te " genocide generals" from the yugoslav wars, rwanda genocide accused, monica lewinsky, kim il jong, and slobodan milosevic are all living on a small island with lots of female maids in bikinis smoking cubans and drinking best carribean rum and russian vodka
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

[moose1am]

They are in Pakistan along the boarder with Afghanistan. Right along side of Bin Laden.




If all this is secret how do they know 38 people are missing? Perhaps its 38 million. You're not really serious are you?

In case you are, the 38 missing are named. They know who they are, but not where they are or what's happened to them. The US state they no longer have them, but they seem to have simply vanished. Ongoing inquiries by the European Union into this has the US threating that if they don't stop with all the questions, intelligence ties between Europe and the US will be threatened.

[moose1am]

During the last great war the precedent was already set. Remember the US detained all the Japanese living in the USA during the war for the duration of the war.

If these guys are the enemy of the USA and not in uniform and they have declared war against the USA then they have no rights. However if they are US Citizens then it's different IMHO.

We don't hold trials before we shoot the enemy during wartime. We shoot first and ask question later during a battle.

The point is that we have a war going on. The war changes everything according to the Bush Adm.

Many Americans living and working in Iraq and other foreign countries have been executed without due process. Some even had their heads cut off and the entire episode was taped and distributed on the Internet for all to see.

If these guys want to put on a recognized uniform and stop hiding among civilians then and only then will they be treated by the rules of the Geneva Convention. Until they they should be questioned and information should be extracted from them before they are shot for spying. That's what everyone does to 5th columnist and Saboteurs.

QUOTE=CCIP]How do you know they are guilty of what they're being accused without due process having been afforded to them?

That's the heart of the matter and that's why it's rightly being criticized. It sets dangerous precedents.[/QUOTE]

[The Avon Lady]

The Human Rights Watch report also details allegations of torture by a terror suspect who was held in secret custody for more than two years
I went to HRW's website (http://www.hrw.org/) and searched their site for 2 words: Jihad (http://search.hrw.org/search?access=p&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&btnG=Google%2BSearch&client=hrw_frontend&q=jihad&num=10&site=default_collection&oe=UTF-8&proxystylesheet=hrw_frontend&ip=84.229.81.209&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1) and Islam (http://search.hrw.org/search?num=10&access=p&sort=date_3AD_3AL_3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&site=default_collection&ie=UTF-8&btnG=Google%2BSearch&oe=UTF-8&client=hrw_frontend&proxystylesheet=hrw_frontend&q=islam&ip=84.229.81.209&start=10). Other than names of terrorist groups and some individuals named Jihad or Islam, the resulting list contains nothing much else. Jihad and Islam are apparently not problems or causes of massive worldwide HR abuses, when it comes to HRW.

Call me when they decide to whine about the 100's of 1000's of people worldwide who suffer day-in and day-out from Islam and Jihad. Sample list attached (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks).

And even if you read HRW's own article (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/02/26/usint15408.htm) on the missing 38 (count 'em, Jim, count 'em), it doesn't accuse the US of dropping them into a woodchip machine.

In the meantime, go searching the entire Web to see how many of those released from Guantanamo have gone back to being the Jihadis they insisted they weren't in the 1st place.

Cry me a river.

HRW - shmucks. Pardon my language.

[tchocky-2]

I went to HRW's website (http://www.hrw.org/) and searched their site for 2 words: Jihad (http://search.hrw.org/search?access=p&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&btnG=Google%2BSearch&client=hrw_frontend&q=jihad&num=10&site=default_collection&oe=UTF-8&proxystylesheet=hrw_frontend&ip=84.229.81.209&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1) and Islam (http://search.hrw.org/search?num=10&access=p&sort=date_3AD_3AL_3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&site=default_collection&ie=UTF-8&btnG=Google%2BSearch&oe=UTF-8&client=hrw_frontend&proxystylesheet=hrw_frontend&q=islam&ip=84.229.81.209&start=10). Other than names of terrorist groups and some individuals named Jihad or Islam, the resulting list contains nothing much else. Jihad and Islam are apparently not problems or causes of massive worldwide HR abuses, when it comes to HRW. From what I can see, HRW focuses on governments and not religions, and in governments where Islam is closely tied to the rule of law, they have been active. For example, clicking on the Middle East tab (just an inch or so above Search:?) brings up many articles, with a large number of them relating to Saudi Arabia (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/02/17/saudia15353.htm).

Thirty eight people believed to have been held in secret CIA prisons - or black sites - are missing, according to a report by a US human rights group. The Human Rights Watch report also details allegations of torture by a terror suspect who was held in secret custody for more than two years.


:rotfl: :rotfl: That's pretty funny. Where did people come up with this stuff?:roll: Well, GWB for one - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5321606.stm

During the last great war the precedent was already set. Remember the US detained all the Japanese living in the USA during the war for the duration of the war.

If these guys are the enemy of the USA and not in uniform and they have declared war against the USA then they have no rights. However if they are US Citizens then it's different IMHO. This has indeed been done before, but that doesn't make it right.
If these people are indeed enemies of the USA, and have committed crimes or fought against the US, then that's clear enough. They should be charged and brought to trial. What of the many people captured/bought by the US without having done anything other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Many Americans living and working in Iraq and other foreign countries have been executed without due process. Some even had their heads cut off and the entire episode was taped and distributed on the Internet for all to see. What are you saying? The barbarity of others should have no effect on civilised people, other than to strenghten their resolve in fighting said barbarity.

[The Avon Lady]

From what I can see, HRW focuses on governments and not religions
And here I was mistakenly thinking their goal was to focus on humans. Silly me!

Thanks for clearing that up. :up:

[U-533]

38 my...my 38.

If they are missing they more than likely deserve it or they do not wish to be found.

Its strange but I never hear of other country's so called dirty laundry being thrown about trying to undermine integrity.
And don't say your country has no prisoners missing, I believe you'd be a liar.

Spies and other people who play with the things they play with know the consequences of their being caught.
So just except it and lets get on with life.

:sunny: :sunny: :sunny:

[tchocky-2]

38 my...my 38.

If they are missing they more than likely deserve it or they do not wish to be found. Well, already it's happened to one guy whose name was similiar to a wanted terrorist. If it's only 38 missing, I'd want to know for damn sure they deserve it. hey, why not try them and find out.
It terrifies me that the government can just up and snatch you away for ne reason other than "we say so". The argument that if I have nothing too hide I have nothing to fear works two ways; if they're clearly guilty, then try them and be done with it.

Its strange but I never hear of other country's so called dirty laundry being thrown about trying to undermine integrity.
And don't say your country has no prisoners missing, I believe you'd be a liar. most other countries keep it to themselves. I honestly don't think we have anyone amiss at the moment, but I could be wrong.

Spies and other people who play with the things they play with know the consequences of their being caught.
So just except it and lets get on with life.

:sunny: :sunny: :sunny: Uh-huh, if they are guilty. Which we don't know, and have seen evidence to the contrary.
Oh yes, consider this excepted, hence the thread. I think most people would take exception to being "rendered".

[Skybird]

If the argument that someone is considered guilty is "proven" by refering to the fact that he was arrested, and saying that "he would not have been arrested if he would not have been guilty", then this is simply circular logic, and it is extremely dangerous and damaging to a free society's self-understanding. It hollows out valid laws, it also mimics the way of self-justification as practiced for example by the Nazigerman GeStaPo. When "being arrested" is synonymous with "being guilty", then the necessary step of "examination and prooving the guilt" has been deleted. that is the death of the legal system as understood in Western civilization. But it makes the job easier for the concerned authorities.

They also evade democratic countercontrol and checking the balances of power. You not only loose the legal system of the West of which you are so proud of, you also loose democracy that way. Instead, power gets ursurped. That is the beginning of a police dictatorship.

That way, our enemies are right when accusing us that our values are lies and that we use different standards to judge our doing, and that of others. Is it clever to give them that argument? Hardly. we need to accept that we have to go the more difficult way. We must not assume their guilt - we mujst proove it. Hear-say and belief and fantasy and conclusions alone have no place at court.

[Marcantilan]

Well, you could win a terror war by legal means (trials, jails, lawyers, so on) Italy, in the late ´70´s done that with the Red Brigades (not a minor terrorist group, for sure, but a very pro and communist supported one)

In the other side, the argentine government, also in the ´70, fought a terror war with the seme methods the terrorism use (people vanished, were tortured or were thrown from aircrafts, so on).

In the opinion of a lot of people, many of the now dead deserved the punishment, but´s not the point.

The point is, after 30 years, theres no peace in the argentinian society, which is today very fragmented.

Sure, with terrorist means you could win a couple of battles, but you are going to lose the war in the long term. The war about integrity.

[dean_acheson]

HRW and their ilk are more than smucks. They are, to paraphrase Lenin, useful idiots.

It's like in my law school where the chancellor was an immigrant from Chile. We had this ugly statute in the basement to all the poor victims of torture and oppression there under Pinochet, and constant protests about the School of the Americas, and yet no-one ever had the temerity to mention the abuses of the Sandanistas or the current Cuban Administration. Much less the millions killed by Socialist/Communist regimes in Eastern Europe, Africa, and Asia.

I hate oppressive governments equally, but the wolf crys of groups like HRW really fail to move me much. Their lamatations concerning 'human rights' abuses are more about politics than they are about deprivations of natural rights.

http://www.hrw.org/doc/?t=americas

If one can't see the focus of their 'articles' here, it is beyond my poor powers to elucidate that person as to the agenda they are pushing. We need trials and international action when it concerns right-wing regimes, and an excercise of restraint when it comes to left-wing ones. If one looks at their Asia page, it mainly consists of stories about Pakistan and India, while failing to point a finger at China and/or North Korea.

[dean_acheson]

Here is a good use of the phrase Chutzpah in a sentence. lol.

http://tigerhawk.blogspot.com/2007/02/character.html