Chinese Ripoff...

[ASWnut101]

Tell me this isn't a grand rip-off of the Eurofighter/Typhoon:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/images/j-10_4.jpg



*picture from globalsecurity.org

[JSLTIGER]

Actually, it's the J-10, and I believe that its closer to the F-16 than the EF-2000 in terms of capability. IAI took some flak for working on some of the avionics for it.

[waste gate]

Yes the Chinese have been sleeping in other bedrooms other than Lincoln's.

BTW the Lincoln bedroom was actually used as old Abe's office during his presidency. It didn't become a bedroom until later.

[SUBMAN1]

That is a modified MiG-21 I think. It is more a ripoff of a MiG-21 than anything.

The J-10 makes its appearance in Falcon 4 Allied Force I beleive. THey never bothered me though since my main worry was always the MiG-29's and the SU varients.

-S

PS. Correction - that may be a Lavi ripoff.

[SUBMAN1]

Found it online:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/j-10.htm

[ASWnut101]

That's where I got the pic from, Subman. :-? And how does it look like a M-21? I was talking in visual terms...:cool:

[Skybird]

chinese pirating is no longer limited to rubber boots and ink pencils, but to hitech and industrial knowhow as well. If this is a threatening problem in the civilian business field, why assuming they are not also successful in pirating military hitech, although it would not be called pirating then, but spionage? If their military espionag efforts are only half as successful as their civilian amibitons to use pirating, then one should not underestimate the capabilitites of their new models. Chinese are not dumb.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,402464,00.html

Never before have the Chinese robbed the West of so much and such sensitive merchandise. Fully 70 percent of all illegal copycat products come from Asia, and most of that comes from China, in what has mushroomed into a $300 billion market. (...) European Aeronautic and Space Company (EADS) subsidiary Airbus announced that it plans to build its own plant in China, news that promptly set off a heated debate over the need to protect European aircraft construction secrets. In the second, China announced that it was beginning trial runs of its own magnetic levitation train -- less than two years after the opening of Shanghai's German-designed Transrapid system. It was an announcement that smelled strongly of industrial espionage.


While Airbus still has faith in the East as a land of opportunity, the Transrapid consortium of German industrial giants Siemens and ThyssenKruppp is already experiencing the uglier side of China's economic boom. Both cases ultimately revolve around the same fundamental issue: To what extent should, can or must German, European and Western companies kowtow to the rising economic power in hopes of generating future business? Airbus need only look to Transrapid to see the dangers that may await: the gradual threat of know-how theft.

The history of China's new magnetic levitation rail system is instructive. Whereas Germany's Transrapid has been tested on a stretch of track in the country's northern Emsland region since 1983, the Chinese version -- led by Chinese engineer Wu Xiangming, nicknamed Commander Wu -- only took 22 months to build. The 30-kilometer (18 mile) stretch of magnetic track went up on the perimeter of Shanghai at the behest of the Chinese government. The rapid completion, of course, was made possible because the German companies involved contributed funding, top-notch personnel and expertise. A Sino-German joint-venture company oversaw the project.

But the cooperation turned sour in December 2004, when Chinese engineers broke into the Transrapid maintenance room in the middle of the night and took measurements of the new train. The bizarre incident was even captured on film, and German economic weekly Wirtschaftswoche speculated that it was a case of Transrapid technology theft.

(...)

how attractive are these types of deals to Western companies when they're being forced to essentially give away costly technology -- or at least look the other way when it's copied by the Chinese? It's a question that's also been on the minds of Airbus executives recently.
The European aviation group plans to benefit from growing air traffic in China. Airbus could sell thousands of its jets there, earning billions in the process. But that would mean giving in to Beijing's demands for the establishment of joint venture companies and the construction of production facilities in China.

Although Airbus has promised to comply, it plans to limit initial production to older and smaller models. In return, Beijing announced late last year that it plans to buy up to 150 of Airbus's A320 models.
At the same time, however, the government announced, as part of its upcoming five-year plan, that it will begin developing its own jet for 150 to 200 passengers in 2010. Given such behavior, and amid fears of industrial espionage, it comes as no surprise that the US government has thus far barred its own aviation giant, Boeing, from building aircraft production plants in China.

It seems america has learned the lesson while Europe still pays the price for it's naivety. As the Chinese said, "the Germans must begin "to understand the Chinese philosophy. If they don't involve us in the technology, we don't feel comfortable."

Maybe we should stop caring if China feels uncomfortable - just to get a small reward that sooner or later is being eaten up by the loss it comes with.

I cannot imagine that it is so much different with technology that could be used militarily as well.

[bookworm_020]

It a big worry for all countries at the moment. I belive they refer to it as Chinese Take away!:o

[flintlock]

I wonder what percentage of China's powerful and growing economy is based on their thievery? I suspect it's likely an alarming number.

[waste gate]

I wonder what percentage of China's powerful and growing economy is based on their thievery? I suspect it's likely an alarming number.

I'm not so sure it's thievery. Often the best means of bringing a nation into the fold is to give them a piece of the pie. If you allow me to digress, that is what socialism is all about.

[Skybird]

It IS thievery, no doubt. and it costs Western nations dearly: financial losses by lost potential incomes in the range of several hundred billions, jobs getting lost, companies' existence at risk. Don't be fooled by their smiles and polite manners. Chinese powerpolitics always have been less military-dependant, and more focussed on shaping almost imperial trade structures and dependencies with the middle kingdom in the controlling centre of it. If you think that is a soft power, then in a way you are wrong. The method is as hard and brutal on foreign nations as is the determination to use war to push your agenda through. It creates power-structures that have a longer longevity and are more robust to attempts to be overthrown than those enforced by wars, I think. I see many things in the old chinese culture that I deeply admire and like very much - but nevertheless I have no illusions about China. It is not the better part of mankind. It is different than us.

[3Jane]

As far as that goes, it's nothing more than a taste of the same medicine being spooned out by western global corporate power and the governments it backs. Perhaps people don't like the taste of it when someone else is holding the spoon.

[Bill Nichols]

Tell me this isn't a grand rip-off of the Eurofighter/Typhoon:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/images/j-10_4.jpg



*picture from globalsecurity.org


Actually, it looks much more like a Lavi. And, the Israelis have a long history of military tech transfer to China.

http://www.machtres.com/LAVI.jpg

http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/KleinBernhard/4921L-1.jpg

J-10:

http://www.defesanet.com.br/imagens/china/j-10.jpg

"Chinese engineers are trying to develop the J-10 from a single F-16 provided by Pakistan, and with assistance from Israeli engineers associated with Israel’s US-financed Lavi fighter program, which was cancelled in 1987....

"It is unclear what specific technologies and systems Israel has provided, although it is reported that the Jian-10's radar and fire-control system is the Israeli-made ELM-2021 system, which can simultaneously track six air targets and lock onto the four most-threatening targets for destruction. Some experts believe that the Israeli contribution will focus on avionics and radar, with Russia supplying the engines. In December 1991, US intelligence officials announced that Israel was planning to open a government coordinated and sponsored "arms office" in the PRC. In light of what the Israelis have to offer, and what the Chinese need, it was most likely that a transfer of avionics and other technologies developed in the Lavi program would ensue, since there is a void in the Chinese avionics and fire control system capability due to the 1989 termination of a US/Chinese program in response to Tienanmen square.


"China and Israel started collaboration in the early 1980's and full-scale cooperation was underway officially by 1984. After the 1987 cancellation of the Lavi, it was taken over by CAIC and the IAI carried on with the development of avionic equipment. However, the Lavi project had included many elements that Israel could not develop by itself, and China cannot obtain these key technologies from the United States, which has consequently substantially increased the technical difficulties of the F10. In addition, there are certain difference between the Israeli and Chinese requirements for the aircraft. Since Israel already already had fighters such as the F-15, its primary requirement for the Lavi was short-range air support and interdiction, with a secondary mission of air superiority. In contrast, the Chinese Air Force is interested in replacing its large fleet of outmoded J-6 and J-7 fighters, for which air superiority capabilities remain a top priority while the air-to-ground attack capability is of secondary importance.

"Since neither China nor Israel is capable of developing the propulsion system required by the J-10, in 1991 China acquired the AI31F turbofan engine from Russia for incorporation into the J-10 fighter. This engine is also used in the Su-27 air superiority fighter that Chinese acquired from Russia. The performance of the AL31F engine is significantly better than that of the American PW1120 originally slated for the Lavi, it may be anticipated that the performance of the J-10 will be accordingly enhanced."

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/j-10.htm

:know:

[PeriscopeDepth]

Wonder how long it will take the Chinese to come up with an F-35 knock off after Israel gets their hands on those.

PD

[bookworm_020]

Wonder how long it will take the Chinese to come up with an F-35 knock off after Israel gets their hands on those.

PD

Maybe Australia should by them from China instead of the U.S. At least we may get some contract work out of it!!!:hmm: