View Full Version : FSAA/Anti-aliasing/Major resolution problem (merged)
Hello, all.
I found this pic here at Subsim, and I couldn't help but notice it reminds me of the garbage that is Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter and Rainbow 6 Vegas (both Ubisoft Games). For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, neither of those games, of which I already stated are both Ubisoft releases, support FSAA. Yes, that's right, they do NOT support FSAA. I hate to say it, but this screenshot looks exactly like GRAW and Vegas. Please, for the love of all that is holy, tell me that FSAA is supported in SHIV, and that they didn't "re-model" the engine in a way that disables the ability to use FSAA (yes, that's right...FSAA can't even be forced in those other games I mentioned). :(
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/9141/shivwp1.jpg
flintlock
02-20-07, 10:31 PM
Just set AA and AF via your graphic drivers and have those override any ingame settings. If I have both set to zero, SH3 looks similarly poor too.
Just set AA and AF via your graphic drivers and have those override any ingame settings. If I have both set to zero, SH3 looks similarly poor too.
No, what I'm saying is...
In GRAW and Vegas, you CAN'T force FSAA. There is NO WAY to use FSAA in-game. You CAN'T force it in the driver control panel.
Upon further review of the screenshots at Marinesims, ALL of the sacreenshots lack FSAA. Good Lord....Ubisoft, please tell me you didn't screw up the ability to use FSAA like you did in GRAW and Vegas!
EDIT - Yep, sure looks like GRAW and Vegas alright. Turn on HDR, and BAM, no FSAA. If this is how SHIV is going to be...what a joke. For reference, turn on "bloom" on SH3 and watch the FSAA go bye-bye!
I hope by "upgraded SH3 engine", they didn't really mean "POS Unreal 2 updated engine".
flintlock
02-20-07, 10:45 PM
Ahh, okay. I recall in BF2 you had to set AA via the in-game settings, as forcing AA via ATI's CCC or CP didn't work.
Let's just hope it's there and it's off in those screens for demo/performance reasons.
Forever the eternal optimist,
flintlock
Ahh, okay. I recall in BF2 you had to set AA via the in-game settings, as forcing AA via ATI's CCC or CP didn't work.
Let's just hope it's there and it's off in those screens for demo/performance reasons.
Forever the eternal optimist,
flintlock
I updated my post above.
My BF2 ran fine with out-of-game FSAA set (I have an Nvidia card though).
I hope they didn't do this nonsense to SHIV. In GRAW and Vegas, they went for all this HDR (bloom) and other stuff it essentially disabled everybody's ability to use FSAA. Because of this, GRAW and Vegas look like, IMO, garbage. Talk about anti-climatic graphics....GRAW anyone? So far, the past 3 Ubisoft games that have come out have had this un-tuned, performance hogging, underwhelming engine. I hope SHIV doens't have this engine. If it does, then SHIV is completely ruined for me. I just don't feel immersed in a game when it is a jaggy mess everywhere I look (also, turning up the resolution to 1600x1200 doesn't really make anything look better either). :(
(Btw....disabling the HDR in the config. files using notepad didn't fix the FSAA problem in those other games either).
I'm not trying to sound like a jerk here, but I had high hopes for GRAW and Vegas and both were a HUGE letdown for me because of the lack of FSAA. Maybe I'm a graphics whore, maybe not....but I just don't like games that simply CAN'T use FSAA. These days we have superfast videocards and superfast cpus, there's no reason for development teams to use crappy engines that don't allow for FSAA.
I will bump this thread until we (at least I hope I'm not alone, lol) get a definitive answer.
As I posted in another thread, I suspect that AA won't work with the post-processing effects shown activated in these shots.
If anyone ever tried activating the bloom feature in SH3 by pressing shift pg-up, you would have noticed any Forced AA being deaktivated. When bloom is turned off again, the AA comes back.
I suspect that the post-processing effects may use a bloom effect similar to SH3, which prevents AA.
We may be able to turn these effects off though.
EDIT: Maybe Seth can clarify at least this one thing for us?
trenken
02-20-07, 10:59 PM
Are you talking about the PC versions of GRAW and R6V? If you're talking about the 360s versions, which both look much better than their PC counterparts, I might be wrong but I don't think you can build a PC without spending like 10k to do what the 360 can do. That screenshot isn't anywhere near the same ballpark of what I saw in GRAW or R6V on my 360.
trenken
02-20-07, 11:00 PM
Also, as far as AA, i've seen a bunch of shots that looked very smooth (not sure if they were in game), and a bunch that looked jaggy as all hell. AA is very important to me so I hope it's in SH4.
flintlock
02-20-07, 11:05 PM
AA is very important to me so I hope it's in SH4. It is to anyone with a discerning eye.
I didn't have many issues with SH3. I used to play with 6xAA and 16xAF and it looked pretty respectable to me (I played with bloom off).
Are you talking about the PC versions of GRAW and R6V? If you're talking about the 360s versions, which both look much better than their PC counterparts, I might be wrong but I don't think you can build a PC without spending like 10k to do what the 360 can do. That screenshot isn't anywhere near the same ballpark of what I saw in GRAW or R6V on my 360.
Exactly.
The PC versions of both products looked sub-par at best to their 360 counterparts.
Disabling HDR in GRAW (PC) and Vegas (PC) did NOT allow for FSAA either. :(
When screenies of GRAW (PC) were first posted on the Ubisoft site, they looked like they had the ability to utilize FSAA, well, those photos were "re-touched", and it was later realized that the PC versions of both cgames did not support FSAA.
AA is very important to me so I hope it's in SH4.
It is to anyone with a discerning eye.
I didn't have many issues with SH3. I used to play with 6xAA and 16xAF and it looked pretty respectable to me.
Yep.
BUT...
Turn on "bloom" in SH3 and the FSAA is disabled automatically.
Personally, and if what I suspect is the case here is in fact true, I would have MUCH rather had SH3's engine (with the addition of the see-through water) with just the Pacific theatre and whatnot.
NefariousKoel
02-20-07, 11:27 PM
Splitting hairs..
I know the jaggies can be annoying but I'm just happy as hell to have a modern Pac theater sim. I haven't played one since Silent Service/ Silent Service 2 (and not much on 2).
Besides, I didn't think the graphics were that bad on GRAW. I guess I'm just an old-timer who's grateful I'm not seeing 8 bit.
Splitting hairs..
I know the jaggies can be annoying but I'm just happy as hell to have a modern Pac theater sim. I haven't played one since Silent Service/ Silent Service 2 (and not much on 2).
Besides, I didn't think the graphics were that bad on GRAW. I guess I'm just an old-timer who's grateful I'm not seeing 8 bit.
It's not splitting hairs when you see it in motion, or are required to see objects at a distance.
Lack of FSAA + distance = can be a royal pain.
I'm sorry, but I refuse to just "settle" for things just because we didn't have them before (that is just me though...I don't expect everybody to agree with me). It's the mentality that "we should just be happy with what we get", that provides no motivation to go one step further. If they produced SHIV without the ability to utilize FSAA, that means Ubisoft failed to listen to a LOT of people who complained about GRAW and it's lack of FSAA...then did the same with Vegas. If they did this in SHIV, that means Ubisoft has effectively ignored the requests of many of it's customers for 3 titles. I find that unacceptable. I, for one, am tired of buying products that utilize a sub-standard engine simply because "that's all they have". Technology is supposed to improve with age. From the looks of it, what we are all getting, is SH3 with GRAWS "modified" Unreal 2 engine. An engine that, for the most part, has been heralded as highly unoptimized, and to many people, somewhat" ugly".
If you took your car to a car wash, and the guy washing your car was charging $5 for a total wash OR $5 for the car but not the windows or tires, and you said, "hey, I'm just happy I'm getting my car washed".......which wash do you think you would get? ;)
On a side note, the screenies at Marinesims perplex me. The game, in some shots, looks like it has no FSAA, while other shots look like some FSAA has been applied to some objects but not others. I just hope we can get a definitive answer here.
NefariousKoel
02-20-07, 11:56 PM
I honestly see your point Ark.
There was no need for a metaphor there, I do agree with you. However, I'm not so worried about jaggies as much as features is the only point I was attempting to poorly make. ;)
I honestly see your point Ark.
There was no need for a metaphor there, I do agree with you. However, I'm not so worried about jaggies as much as features is the only point I was attempting to poorly make. ;)
Hehe, don't take the metaphor as an attack. I use metaphors all day long....it's a character flaw. ;)
I get what you are saying as well. My stance is, with the hardware we have available to us today...why can't we have looks and substance? I may be answering my own question here, but I think the answer to that question lies at the feet of Ubisoft. Where I get upset, is the idea that if SHIV utilizes the same engine as GRAW, then there has been more than enough time to improve on it. If it hasn't really improved at all, I see no progress....I hate that, and in all honesty, I don't see any justification for it either.
NefariousKoel
02-21-07, 12:08 AM
I'm thinking the engine for SH4, since it's based on SH3, will have the same setup. I could be wrong, though. Perhaps forcing it works?
I'm thinking the engine for SH4, since it's based on SH3, will have the same setup. I could be wrong, though. Perhaps forcing it works?
I hope so.
Forcing FSAA in GRAW and Vegas doesn't work though (my biggest worry being this scenario).
Heck, give me SH3's graphics with transparent water and dynamic shadows and I'm happier than a pig in ....... lol
Hmm, my hopes are somewhat renewed. I've been watching some little vids here and there, and it looks as if there are videos without the post-processing effects, BUT with the dynamic shine and whatnot. There does appear to be FSAA in the videos that are available (though it is hard to tell for sure), but I'm not sure how old/new the videos are. From the video on the Marinesims page (Dev Diary 2, IIRC), there doesn't appear to be much shimmering which is inherent with a lack of FSAA (though the there does appear to be quite a bit of jaggies/shimmering present on the sub cables). This leads me to beleive that either; A) The video was created before the Post-Pro. effects were added in, B) The Post-Pro. effects have been disabled, or C) FSAA does work with Post-Pro. enabled, but itwas too dark to the really see the Post-Pro.effects.
Seth, can you please n here and lay this issue to rest?
you guyz do know that the current hardware could only do one or the other, its not ubis fault, on the 360 of course it could do both with its unified architecture.
The new 8800 can also do both, fear not ye sea dogs............ upgrade upgrade upgrade. lol
EDIT : btw If shift page up turns on bloom, does pressing it again disable it? as it didnt seem to on my vista x64 install.
you guyz do know that the current hardware could only do one or the other, its not ubis fault, on the 360 of course it could do both with its unified architecture.
The new 8800 can also do both, fear not ye sea dogs............ upgrade upgrade upgrade. lol
Actually, Post-Processing effects and FSAA doesn't work due to a limitation within the modified Unreal2 engine. Ubisoft said so in the GRAW and Vegas forums a while back. It isn't a hardware limitation. The only questions that remain, are if SHIV uses this same/similar engine, and how our newer cards will handle this software limitation. Nobody but the Devs, Ubi, and the Beta testers really know for sure.
If the newer hardware can do both at the same time, and this negates the limitation within the software, then GREAT. I have a shiney new 8800 GTX that hasn't been installed yet just waiting to surface. :) However, the hardware can be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but if the software can't do it, the hardware won't be able to change that.
Time will tell. :)
With regards to your "bloom" question (I'm guessing you are referring to SH3?), I think if you hit it a few times it changes the intensity...until you get to the "off". I haven't checked in a while though, so I'm not positive.
ahh cool, thanks for that, I will try later.
yes, agreed hardware wont help much if it is indeed software limited, oh the complexities of modern submarine warfare!
I don't think we should be worried. The gameplay tralier from gamespot seems to have AA turned on. The cables on the ships look too full and smooth, if AA was turned off they'd appear as pixelated dots.
Gizzmoe
02-21-07, 10:45 AM
Seth, can you please n here and lay this issue to rest?
The beta testers have signed a NDA and canīt give you any informations.
Here... looks pretty smoothed out to me. This sould alay some fears.
http://www.aotd-clan.com/Bilder/balao.jpg
flintlock
02-21-07, 12:13 PM
That last screenshot looks fine (in a 4:3 kinda way). There's other media out there where things look pretty smooth too. For code testing purposes or whatnot, AA may simply be off to not unnecessarily tax the hardware.
That last screenshot looks fine (in a 4:3 kinda way). There's other media out there where things look pretty smooth too. For code testing purposes or whatnot, AA may simply be off to not unnecessarily tax the hardware.
Hmmm, good point. I didn't think of that. We'll find out soon though I imagine.
One of the members at the Official Silent Hunter forums at Ubi's site added my question to the "Ask the Devs" thread, so maybe we will here some official word soon.
flintlock
02-21-07, 04:54 PM
One of the members at the Official Silent Hunter forums at Ubi's site added my question to the "Ask the Devs" thread, so maybe we will here some official word soon.
Good stuff. It certainly would be nice to get an official response, rather than all the rampant speculation.
Barkhorn1x
02-21-07, 05:00 PM
Good stuff. It certainly would be nice to get an official response, rather than all the rampant speculation.
I agree w/ you in principle but must point out that if it wern't for rampant speculation there would be a total of about 5 posts a day on this board.
:|\\
Barkhorn.
This speculation is fun. Nothing like waiting for a game or mod to come out.
flintlock
02-21-07, 05:46 PM
For mods, I have all the patience in the world, for new games -- not s much. :)
difool2
02-21-07, 07:51 PM
What the heck is FSAA? I gather it smooths lines out or something. I know what
antialiasing is...
flintlock
02-21-07, 08:50 PM
Full scene anti-aliasing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-aliasing
StandingCow
02-22-07, 12:38 AM
In the brand new screen shots, one of them has some HORRIBLE jaggies... :oops:
2nd pic in the 2nd row.
http://www.worthplaying.com/article.php?sid=40841&mode=thread&order=0
NefariousKoel
02-22-07, 12:55 AM
Seth, can you please n here and lay this issue to rest?
The beta testers have signed a NDA and canīt give you any informations.
Yep!
The beta testers would have to stab you directly in the carotid artery and dump you over the side with brand new concrete shoes just to cover up the evidence. :smug:
flintlock
02-22-07, 01:06 AM
This is the lead beta tester.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t287/idachs/subsim/0005.jpg
This guy enforces the NDA:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t287/idachs/subsim/0006.jpg
Seth, can you please n here and lay this issue to rest?
The beta testers have signed a NDA and canīt give you any informations.
I have been under various NDAs for the past 8 years, I know how they work...I also know they don't all work the same. Not everything is always covered under an NDA. It all depends on, well, the NDA. ;) :)
I find it discouraging that something so simple as "Does FSAA work with SHIV?" can't be revealed as if it is this huge mystery....only to be unvieled after release...you know, after most people have already bought it.
Encyclopedias of ships, preview videos, screenshots, dev. diaries, etc.. seem to weasel out....but this one question can't be answered. OMGZ...NOT TEH FSAAZZZ QUEST1ONZ!!! lol :lol:
Seth, if SH4 has FSAA, Blink twice :rotfl:
Seth, if SH4 has FSAA, Blink twice :rotfl:
Hahaha
Torcher
02-22-07, 09:17 AM
you guyz do know that the current hardware could only do one or the other, its not ubis fault, on the 360 of course it could do both with its unified architecture.
The new 8800 can also do both, fear not ye sea dogs............ upgrade upgrade upgrade. lol
EDIT : btw If shift page up turns on bloom, does pressing it again disable it? as it didnt seem to on my vista x64 install.
ATI cards have the "Chuck Patch" built in now to allow both HDR and FSAA
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=210563&highlight=chuck
Post #16
Ark,
2 facts for you:
1) SH4 is based on the SH3 engine. Comparisons to other games are N/A
2) SH3 had software rendered FSAA. I think is was the PgUp and PgDn buttons that regulated FSAA in SH3
Hopefully the above will settle this :)
cappy70
02-22-07, 01:52 PM
Heck,,when I Beta tested ( internal ) "Hidden & Dangerouse 2" we had a pile of NDA's and we signed off "our lives":D :D
Gizzmoe
02-22-07, 02:21 PM
I find it discouraging that something so simple as "Does FSAA work with SHIV?" can't be revealed as if it is this huge mystery....only to be unvieled after release...you know, after most people have already bought it.
Every piece of information you find about SH4 on the Internet or elsewhere had been approved for release by Ubisoft or the devs. Itīs not like that information about FSAA canīt be revealed, itīs just that either no-one officially asked them about that yet and thus they havenīt given out the information, or they donīt find that information important enough to say anything about it.
Elder-Pirate
02-22-07, 03:05 PM
This looks more like a painting rather than an in game pic. Sometimes the way SH 4 is shown the more I'm dissapointed ( that's sometimes :-? ).
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/SH4Sub.jpg
I find it discouraging that something so simple as "Does FSAA work with SHIV?" can't be revealed as if it is this huge mystery....only to be unvieled after release...you know, after most people have already bought it.
Every piece of information you find about SH4 on the Internet or elsewhere had been approved for release by Ubisoft or the devs. Itīs not like that information about FSAA canīt be revealed, itīs just that either no-one officially asked them about that yet and thus they havenīt given out the information, or they donīt find that information important enough to say anything about it.
I get what you are saying, but seriously, how hard would it be for Ubisoft to just say "Yes" or "No"?
A few things:
1. It was asked in the official "Ask the devs thread" on the Silent Hutner forums at the Official site.
2. "Important enough to answer"? What about the consumer? I would hope that they, as a company, would put the needs of their customers first. Maybe I'm just being idealistic. :)
On a side note, Ubisoft has been known to "touch-up" photos. *COUGH GRAW PC COUGH*
flintlock
02-22-07, 04:35 PM
Sometimes the way SH 4 is shown the more I'm dissapointed In which way specifically? (Not criticizing, simply curious).
If you're referring to some screens resembling paintings, I think that's a testament to how well the graphics have been refreshed (obviously edited shots notwithstanding).
Elder-Pirate
02-22-07, 05:20 PM
Sometimes the way SH 4 is shown the more I'm dissapointed In which way specifically? (Not criticizing, simply curious).
If you're referring to some screens resembling paintings, I think that's a testament to how well the graphics have been refreshed (obviously edited shots notwithstanding).
Some of the SH 4 graphics I've seen literally stink IMO of course, for other people they seem to be allright as 'To Each His Own' and I respect that. But since I've a high end computer I simply want my $50 U.S. worth of Sim and graphics. :yep:
flintlock
02-22-07, 05:33 PM
Thanks for the clarification.
With respect to the graphics, since you have a high-end system, I suspect you're going to be in for a pleasant surprise once you get the game in your hands. ;)
Elder-Pirate
02-22-07, 05:40 PM
Thanks for the clarification.
With respect to the graphics, since you have a high-end system, I suspect you're going to be in for a pleasant surprise once you get the game in your hands. ;)
I hope so. :)
Sometimes the way SH 4 is shown the more I'm dissapointed If you're referring to some screens resembling paintings, I think that's a testament to how well the graphics have been refreshed (obviously edited shots notwithstanding).
I just hope we aren't seeing some "re-touched" photos like many of us did with GRAW for the PC.
If it looks like some of those screenies in-game we are seeing, then........... WOW!:cool:
As has been said, you can't make any extrapolations from other games using other engines. And if GRAW uses a variant of the Unreal engine, I can guarantee it has nothing to do with SH4.
As has been said, you can't make any extrapolations from other games using other engines. And if GRAW uses a variant of the Unreal engine, I can guarantee it has nothing to do with SH4.
That's fine and understandable, however, the pic I have in this thread looks a LOT like GRAW does, only not as good as GRAW (IMO)...and I don't think GRAW looks very good. lol
flyingdane
02-23-07, 12:01 AM
This game will suport full AA and Full AF.:roll:
This game will suport full AA and Full AF.:roll:
Are you a Dev. or beta tester?
If not, then....
:roll: <--- is right. ;)
I want a definitive answer from a Dev. or beta tester when/if they are able.
Do I think the game will support FSAA? Probably, but after the screenshot shown here...I would like to know for sure. Heck, I don't know...maybe my whole question has an obvious answer, hence the lack of a response. Either way, I love subsims, therefore, I already pre-ordered. :)
This game will suport full AA and Full AF.:roll:
Are you a Dev. or beta tester?
If not, then....
:roll: <--- is right. ;)
I want a definitive answer from a Dev. or beta tester when/if they are able.
Do I think the game will support FSAA? Probably, but after the screenshot shown here...I would like to know for sure. Heck, I don't know...maybe my whole question has an obvious answer, hence the lack of a response. Either way, I love subsims, therefore, I already pre-ordered. :)
Did you read my post in this thread regarding this specificly?
This game will suport full AA and Full AF.:roll:
Are you a Dev. or beta tester?
If not, then....
:roll: <--- is right. ;)
I want a definitive answer from a Dev. or beta tester when/if they are able.
Do I think the game will support FSAA? Probably, but after the screenshot shown here...I would like to know for sure. Heck, I don't know...maybe my whole question has an obvious answer, hence the lack of a response. Either way, I love subsims, therefore, I already pre-ordered. :)
Did you read my post in this thread regarding this specificly?
Yes, but it doesn't really apply here because there are too many unknowns.
1) SH4 is based on the SH3 engine.
I know. :)
Comparisons to other games are N/A
Maybe, maybe not. If the engine was modified in a way similar to some of the past games Ubi has released, it is possible that the results could be the same. Even though the engine is modified/different, it is possible that some of the same effects present in other "modified" engines could have the same effect on this "modified" engine. Again, too many unknowns. I have faith, but we will see though. :)
2) SH3 had software rendered FSAA. I think is was the PgUp and PgDn buttons that regulated FSAA in SH3
I'm not too sure why you posted this? hehe
In SH3, you could force FSAA in the dirver control panel just like in 99% of the other games that exist. In GRAW and Vegas, there was absolutely no way to apply FSAA. You can't apply it in-game, and you can't force it through the driver control panel. Also, Shift Pg-Up/Shift Pg-Dn regulated the level of "bloom" if I am correct, not the level of FSAA ( I could be wrong here though...I don't ever remember setting FSAA "in-game").
The more videos I see though, I am starting to get the feeling that FSAA is possible in the game....we may just have to turn of Post-processing effects (I have yet to see both at the same time running).
Elder-Pirate
02-23-07, 12:21 PM
And so the Saga continues: To be or not to be full AA -and or- AF.
Please stay tuned. :lol:
My point is very simple....they will not take away things that are allready included in the engine. They have stated several times that they have improoved several areas.
Why should they take away a feature allready build in like FSAA?
SH3 didn't have built in FSAA. It always had to be forced through the drivers. So they wouldn't be taking anything away. The fear is that you may not even be able to force it.
SH3 didn't have built in FSAA. It always had to be forced through the drivers. So they wouldn't be taking anything away. The fear is that you may not even be able to force it.
Then I would suggest you start up SH3, go into a mission and press SHIFT+PgUp a few times and let me know how it looks.
Because SH3 does have build in FSAA!!
Mate, that's not FSAA. It's bloom, a completely different thing. Bloom makes the lighting bleed over the edges of objects to make it seem brighter. At very high levels it can seem to have a blur effect.
FSAA smoothes out pixelated edges. The Bloom feature in SH3 actually voids any forced FSAA, making it look pixelated again.
Elder-Pirate
02-24-07, 03:00 PM
Mate, that's not FSAA. It's bloom, a completely different thing. Bloom makes the lighting bleed over the edges of objects to make it seem brighter. At very high levels it can seem to have a blur effect.
FSAA smoothes out pixelated edges. The Bloom feature in SH3 actually voids any forced FSAA, making it look pixelated again.
Explain this.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/AAandAF1.jpg
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=400102&f=857101043&m=2341042492&p=1...
Mate, that's not FSAA. It's bloom, a completely different thing. Bloom makes the lighting bleed over the edges of objects to make it seem brighter. At very high levels it can seem to have a blur effect.
FSAA smoothes out pixelated edges. The Bloom feature in SH3 actually voids any forced FSAA, making it look pixelated again.
Explain this.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/AAandAF1.jpg
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=400102&f=857101043&m=2341042492&p=1...
Boris sort of already did explain it. "Bloom" adds in a blur/hazy/foggy look to the game. It may make some edges look slightly less grainy, but it certainly is NOT the FSAA we are talking about. In fact, it removes the FSAA we apply in our videocard settings in SH3. "Bloom" essentially makes things look sort of hazy which in turn can make some edges less noticable, however, it is nowhere near as effective as FSAA. FSAA actually directly blurs the jagged portions, elminating jaggies. "Bloom" is more like "glare".
If you want to see what I mean, hit shift-page up and look at the cables on the ships.
What they are describing in your quote is NOT the same as the FSAA we add in with our videocards.
Hope this explains it a little. :)
It's a glare feature and is not really comparable to AA... give me a couple of minutes and I'll take some screenshots of what it does, and how it cancels out the real AA.
Ok, here we go...
Firstly, standard 1042x768, no FSAA:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f152/Boris117/noAA.jpg
Standard 1024x768, with forced driver FSAA:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f152/Boris117/AA.jpg
Finally, standard 1024x768, with sofware bloom (glare), using the Shift-PgUp function
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f152/Boris117/Bloom.jpg
As you can see, no AA is just plain ugly. AA smoothes out the pixels. Turing on the bloom creates a nice glare effect, but cancels out the forced driver AA.
Bingo!
Thanks for posting pics, Boris. I am uinable to right now since SH3 is currently uninstalled (doing some computer maintenance). The cables are always a dead giveaway and the first thing I notice when no FSAA is applied.
The worst part about not having FSAA, is when the objects are in motion. The objects edges can have a "swimming" look to them. If the edges weren't bad enough in screenshots, in motion they are dreadfully noticable.
Elder-Pirate
02-24-07, 06:40 PM
Ok I get the drift now. :yep: Thats twice in a couple days I've been wrong. Gee, three times and I'm out. :o
Usually I do not monkey with the graphic card and leave it at default which in SH 3's case its like this:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/Appcontroled.jpg
But for this time I'll put it here temp.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/AAandAF.jpg
for I really do not see the difference when I'm playing the Sim as I'm kind of busy setting things up to fire a torpedo and am not looking at the other ships rigging to see if its Ship-Shape or not.
It is an inprovement to use AA-and or- AF as these pics confirm:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/carrierwithout.jpg
Did not get any pics for the "Bloom" to post but you are right "It's ugly" :rotfl: :arrgh!:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/Carriersidewith.jpg
Here is a pic on a patrol without useing any AA or AF and during the game I did'nt know the difference nor was I paying attention to the rigging of the sub, Sure looks good enough to me.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/U-65onmissionNoAAorAF.jpg
I believe some of you people are just "Rivet Counters" :rotfl: :rotfl: But to each his own.
Meh, I think those dotted pixely cables look horrible. Any game wihtout AA makes my eyes bleed. Just looks more real.
One thing I will say about AA - it's an addiction. Once you see a game with AA, it's really, really hard to go back.
Which is why, having a 128mb card, I NEVER enable AA because I know that once I start using it I won't be able to stop :rotfl:
I'm quite used to no-AA in games - wouldn't have to be if for most of anything modern it didn't kill my FPS, but alas it's the truth. When I get a new system in about a year, I'll certainly use it, but I'm quite fine without it for now.
flintlock
02-24-07, 08:04 PM
AA can make a huge impact sometimes too -- to the point where it almost feels a like a next gen version of the same game.
AA is a beautiful thing. :yep:
Sulikate
02-24-07, 09:25 PM
AA can make a huge impact sometimes too -- to the point where it almost feels a next gen version of the same game.
AA is a beautiful thing. :yep:
I agree. I'm also a AA addict:arrgh!:
Antrodemus
02-26-07, 03:56 AM
Anti-Aliasing
Alcoholics Anonymous
Hmmm...:yep:
OK, now I see you point Boris. Never having really used the software FSAA that SH3 provided I havent noticed the difference between that and real FSAA.
I do stand by my point that it has been marketed as FSAA, but I do agree that it does not do the job as good as real FSAA.
Paajtor
02-26-07, 06:42 PM
How about these 3 screens? Looks like FSAAx2 to me:
http://resources.ubi.com/resources/60/60856-SH4_screen_p2_0.jpg
http://resources.ubi.com/resources/59/59333-Sh4_screen_p3_6.jpg
http://resources.ubi.com/resources/60/60875-SH4_screen_p4.jpg
flintlock
02-26-07, 07:03 PM
How about these 3 screens? Looks like FSAAx2 to me: 2x, 4x or 6x, those shots clearly have some form or combo of AA/AF. They look similar to what I used to achive with 4xAA and 8xAF within SH3.
Antrodemus
02-26-07, 07:16 PM
Yep, definitely up in the higher AA ranges I reckon...
StandingCow
02-26-07, 07:49 PM
I see AA in this shot as well:
http://image.jeuxvideo.com/images/pc/s/i/sih4pc033.jpg
I see AA in this shot as well:
http://image.jeuxvideo.com/images/pc/s/i/sih4pc033.jpg
Seeing it in motion is the real killer when FSAA can't be used. It looks absolutely horrible to me.
Also, take a look at the gun barrel and the wires running towards the front of the sub. I don't really see any FSAA in that picture, it is sort of dark though.
RickC Sniper
02-26-07, 09:08 PM
Man, you guys are going to give yourselves an ulcer.
Wait until someone gets the game and ask him if it allows AA or not. If not, and that's a deal killer for you, don't buy it.
I suspect you'll be moderately surprised.
Antrodemus
02-26-07, 09:22 PM
Doesn't bother me... I ordered the DE a fortnight ago. :up:
Yeah, I hear the DE has an exclusive AA feature ;)
Yeah, I hear the DE has an exclusive AA feature ;)
Well, we at least know that FSAA is not in any in-game menus. Of course, it wasn't in SH3 either, so we'll have to wait an see.
The one thing that does bother me is that almost all of the preview shots I have seen so far from other sites/magazines/etc.. lack FSAA. It's not like it's a random thing where a few sites show pics with it on, others with it off. It's almost as if the screenshots are devoid of FSAA entirely. You'd think with all these "Previews", Ubisoft would want to show how "great" the game can look....not how jaggy.
Besides this, wtf...why can't/won't Ubisoft just answer this question already. The fact that it isn't being answered is my biggest worry. Heck, I'd settle for a Beta tester telling me over pm for crying out loud. 80 views and 1,400+ views..........Is it an important enough question yet?
Btw, today is my birthday. Where's the love Ubisoft?
flintlock
02-26-07, 11:58 PM
The numersous SH4 screenshoots floating around that definitely seem to have AA should alleviate your stress over this. Now you can get a good night's sleep. ;)
Oh, and by the way; Happy B-day!
The numersous SH4 screenshoots floating around that definitely seem to have AA should alleviate your stress over this. Now you can get a good night's sleep. ;)
Oh, and by the way; Happy B-day!
Thanks, Flint! :D
trenken
02-28-07, 01:02 PM
Have I read correctly that SH4 doesn't support this? If that's the case, what a bummer. This is something that every game has these days. This would be a major regression in my eyes.
Barkhorn1x
02-28-07, 01:22 PM
Already a 5 page thread on the topic entitled;
Does FSAA work in SHIV??
Here's a synopsis:
- Many shots w/o it
- A few that look like they w/ it
- No official dev. announcement either way
- No beta testers saying due to NDA
- Have to wait and see
Barkhorn.
Sulikate
02-28-07, 02:12 PM
Already a 5 page thread on the topic entitled;
Does FSAA work in SHIV??
Here's a synopsis:
- Many shots w/o it
- A few that look like they w/ it
- No official dev. announcement either way
- No beta testers saying due to NDA
- Have to wait and see
Barkhorn.
I agree.
trenken
02-28-07, 04:48 PM
Well I would hope it's in there. I don't even think I can name 1 PC game that doesn't support it. I would guess and say it's been at least 5 years since a game was made that didn't. AA is standard issue these days. I can't possibly believe it's not in the game.
What I personally think is going on is this game is such a massive resource hog with the new water and everything else that unless you have a $3,000 machine, you aren't running this with any level of AA without bringing your machine to it's knee's. I'll bet even without AA this game isn't running smoothly on machines that are even 2 years old. But that I can accept. I can't accept that it's not in here at all considering I just spent over $2,500 to upgrade my machine to handle anything this game can ever throw at it and more.
Respenus
02-28-07, 05:28 PM
Come on, even SH3 has AA and everything that goes with it. My GW game looked like something from a real WWII photo. I can't imagine SH4 without it. How is Stabiz then gonna do screenies and videos without it?
Already a 5 page thread on the topic entitled;
Does FSAA work in SHIV??
Here's a synopsis:
- Many shots w/o it
- A few that look like they w/ it
- No official dev. announcement either way
- No beta testers saying due to NDA
- Have to wait and see
Barkhorn.
Actually, if you scan other threads, there is a little more information. But it takes digging. :(
Well I would hope it's in there. I don't even think I can name 1 PC game that doesn't support it. I would guess and say it's been at least 5 years since a game was made that didn't. AA is standard issue these days. I can't possibly believe it's not in the game.
What I personally think is going on is this game is such a massive resource hog with the new water and everything else that unless you have a $3,000 machine, you aren't running this with any level of AA without bringing your machine to it's knee's. I'll bet even without AA this game isn't running smoothly on machines that are even 2 years old. But that I can accept. I can't accept that it's not in here at all considering I just spent over $2,500 to upgrade my machine to handle anything this game can ever throw at it and more.
Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter and Rainbow 6: Vegas, both do not support FSAA. Both are also Ubi titles. lol
trenken
02-28-07, 06:56 PM
Well I would hope it's in there. I don't even think I can name 1 PC game that doesn't support it. I would guess and say it's been at least 5 years since a game was made that didn't. AA is standard issue these days. I can't possibly believe it's not in the game.
What I personally think is going on is this game is such a massive resource hog with the new water and everything else that unless you have a $3,000 machine, you aren't running this with any level of AA without bringing your machine to it's knee's. I'll bet even without AA this game isn't running smoothly on machines that are even 2 years old. But that I can accept. I can't accept that it's not in here at all considering I just spent over $2,500 to upgrade my machine to handle anything this game can ever throw at it and more.
Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter and Rainbow 6: Vegas, both do not support FSAA. Both are also Ubi titles. lol
That's horrible. I'm glad I bought both of those games for the 360 instead of the PC. I didn't know that.
No FSAA in SHIV, according to our french friends, but it can be forced in the driver panel.
Respenus: :rotfl:I`ll get by. Actually no AA is great for videomaking, since the fps-loss is less, and one cant really see that it is not on due to compression. But for screenies its a must!
trenken
02-28-07, 08:57 PM
Yeah this really stings. Could be worse though. Yes you can force AA through your vid card settings, but it's never nearly as good as native AA. It tends to just make things look blurry. Rather than being natural AA, it softens the pixels around the edges and just make it look a little blurry.
No FSAA in SHIV, according to our french friends, but it can be forced in the driver panel.
Respenus: :rotfl:I`ll get by. Actually no AA is great for videomaking, since the fps-loss is less, and one cant really see that it is not on due to compression. But for screenies its a must!
I think he said he "thinks" it can be forced in the control panel, but didn't remember.
If I can force it through the driver control panel then I am totally fine with that. SH3 didn't have native FSAA support either. In fact, most of the games I play I force FSAA through the driver control panel even if it is available through an in-game menu....not sure why. lol
Well I would hope it's in there. I don't even think I can name 1 PC game that doesn't support it. I would guess and say it's been at least 5 years since a game was made that didn't. AA is standard issue these days. I can't possibly believe it's not in the game.
What I personally think is going on is this game is such a massive resource hog with the new water and everything else that unless you have a $3,000 machine, you aren't running this with any level of AA without bringing your machine to it's knee's. I'll bet even without AA this game isn't running smoothly on machines that are even 2 years old. But that I can accept. I can't accept that it's not in here at all considering I just spent over $2,500 to upgrade my machine to handle anything this game can ever throw at it and more.
Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter and Rainbow 6: Vegas, both do not support FSAA. Both are also Ubi titles. lol
That's horrible. I'm glad I bought both of those games for the 360 instead of the PC. I didn't know that.
You made a wise decision, bro.
Some people seem to really like Vegas on the PC, while others seem to really like Vegas on the 360. I am in the 360 crowd on that one. The 360 version just looks flat out better and runs a LOT smoother.
I remember when I bought Vegas for the PC after buying the 360 version (I liked the 360 version so much I wanted to get the PC version as well). I remember saying "WTF IS THIS?!" when I started playing it on the PC. Mind you, I think the gameplay is the exact same, but the graphics and performance are quite a bit below that of the 360.
Ahh well. Live and learn. :)
trenken
02-28-07, 09:08 PM
PC games are still not up to the level of the 360. You can build a very expensive PC for 3-5k that could handle 360 graphics, but until games are developed for DX10 on the PC, they can't compete with the 360.
I'm sure to run SH4 with everything cranked we're going to need to make some healthy upgrades. The 360 can handle that without breaking a sweat.
I mentioned earlier I think this is a big reason why AA was not included. I dont think computers even 1-2 years old can handle all the graphical upgrades they made AND AA. It's too much.
PC games are still not up to the level of the 360. You can build a very expensive PC for 3-5k that could handle 360 graphics, but until games are developed for DX10 on the PC, they can't compete with the 360.
I'm sure to run SH4 with everything cranked we're going to need to make some healthy upgrades. The 360 can handle that without breaking a sweat.
I mentioned earlier I think this is a big reason why AA was not included. I dont think computers even 1-2 years old can handle all the graphical upgrades they made AND AA. It's too much.
I talked to a few developer buddies, and they all said the same thing. "It's the HDR they are using that is making FSAA a pain."
I just hope I can turn off that silly looking HDR (personal taste). I'd fall over backwards if they decided they didn't want to include an FSAA option in favor of this "glowing" graphics effect. lol
*EDIT* I'm ranting again. lol
PC games are still not up to the level of the 360. You can build a very expensive PC for 3-5k that could handle 360 graphics, but until games are developed for DX10 on the PC, they can't compete with the 360.
I'm sure to run SH4 with everything cranked we're going to need to make some healthy upgrades. The 360 can handle that without breaking a sweat.
I mentioned earlier I think this is a big reason why AA was not included. I dont think computers even 1-2 years old can handle all the graphical upgrades they made AND AA. It's too much.
Top end pc`s have just as nice graphics as the 360, but they are expensive. The problem with the 360 and all other consoles is that the games for them generally are very bad. Vegas is a terrible game IMO, and that they used the Rainbow 6 name on it is an insult.
I tried the Project Gotham thingy for instance, and the Nordschleife looked so insanely good. The car on the other hand, behaved like a Mario Cart. So its fun for two minutes.
Yay, hurray for console bashing :up:
nattydread
02-28-07, 11:16 PM
I 2nd that! Consoles are the Anti-Christ of gaming!
flintlock
03-01-07, 12:05 AM
Don't pay attention to Boris. He's a console closet junkie. ;)
GSpector
03-01-07, 12:57 AM
I think console games have there purpose just as PC Games do. My problem is when a company has to make 1 game that will run on both. The PC version always loses because it's easier to simplify a games controls then it is to enhance them.
When it comes to this XBOX 360 vs PC pair-up, we can thank M$ for the simplified PC games. One of the requirements to allow the "Games for Windows" slogan to be used on a PC box is that the game developer must allow the use of XBOX 360 controls in the game.
Also, thanks to M$, don't expect any Graphic Card battles anymore:cry: . M$ has spoken and has stated that ALL PC Graphic Card manufacturers will have to conform to 1 standard so that they are all on the same page so that M$ can control which feature will be produced and used in VI$TA.
THANKS BILL:stare:
trenken
03-01-07, 08:54 AM
If you're primarily a PC game, then console games take some time to get used to. Naturally using a keyboard and mouse is far superior to any gamepad. But there are plenty of great games on the consoles, and what you get which you dont get in the PC world is stability and guaranteed performance.
With something like SH4, here we are having to deal with losing an important thing like anti-aliasing because of other improvements they made and their fear of it all not running well on anything but a 3k computer.
So they both have their trade-offs. I love both. I dont really love one over the other. I thought R6V and Project Gotham Racing were awesome games on the 360. I also have a bunch of PC games I love just as much. But honestly the console world is less stressful for me and much cheaper. I'm getting ready to make 2.5k worth of upgrades to my machine to handle SH4. I'm not upgrading just for that, but for the future, but that's painful to spend that much money on a computer.
If you're primarily a PC game, then console games take some time to get used to. Naturally using a keyboard and mouse is far superior to any gamepad. But there are plenty of great games on the consoles, and what you get which you dont get in the PC world is stability and guaranteed performance.
With something like SH4, here we are having to deal with losing an important thing like anti-aliasing because of other improvements they made and their fear of it all not running well on anything but a 3k computer.
So they both have their trade-offs. I love both. I dont really love one over the other. I thought R6V and Project Gotham Racing were awesome games on the 360. I also have a bunch of PC games I love just as much. But honestly the console world is less stressful for me and much cheaper. I'm getting ready to make 2.5k worth of upgrades to my machine to handle SH4. I'm not upgrading just for that, but for the future, but that's painful to spend that much money on a computer.
That's about what I spent last week for my new build.
The original guy said he thinks FSAA can be applied through the driver settings, but he couldn't remember for sure. :(
trenken
03-01-07, 12:10 PM
I know for sure you can force AA through your vid card, but it's not as good as native AA. It tends to blur the pixels and give everything an overall slightly blurry look.
I know for sure you can force AA through your vid card, but it's not as good as native AA. It tends to blur the pixels and give everything an overall slightly blurry look.
How do you know for sure?
trenken
03-01-07, 03:52 PM
That's a standard feature of modern videocards. Not sure how far back it goes but you can't go out and buy an ATI or GeForce videocard these days that doesn't have that feature.
That's a standard feature of modern videocards. Not sure how far back it goes but you can't go out and buy an ATI or GeForce videocard these days that doesn't have that feature.
That's wierd, because it doens't work on GRAW and Vegas (I have a 7800GTX OC).
It may work on the new 8800 Series, but if the software doesn't allow it, the videocard can't override that.
Crexion
03-01-07, 04:16 PM
That's a standard feature of modern videocards. Not sure how far back it goes but you can't go out and buy an ATI or GeForce videocard these days that doesn't have that feature.
That's wierd, because it doens't work on GRAW and Vegas (I have a 7800GTX OC).
It may work on the new 8800 Series, but if the software doesn't allow it, the videocard can't override that.
I can only speculate, but I do believe that GRAW, SC:CT/DA, and R6 (all Ubisoft, Unreal engine variations from what I understand) couldn't force FSAA due to the engine limitation while utilizing SM 3.0.
**EDIT** - A little researched and I stand corrected. GRAW uses an-in house engine by GRIN.
I haven't played Chaos Theory in a while, but I remember first loading it up with SM 3.0 and saying "Woah, this lighting, colors, and the shadows look really cool". The icing faded quite fast and I started noticing lots of the jagged edges due to lack of AA. I remember dropping the shader model option down and all of a sudden the in-game AA options opened up (were greyed out or something before).
Now take the Source engine. IIRC DoD:S was able to have the HDR option on with AA. Again, I haven't played these games in a while (no longer on my HD, either) so my information may be off, or completely wrong. Basically what I'm saying is that I'm with you Ark. If I have to turn off some of the post eyecandy and HDR to be able to enable FSAA then so be it. I have a 7800GTX KO ACS like you, so I know it can't support both simultaneously (if SHIV even supports them simultaneously with the newer 88xxx series cards). I think some of the HDR/bloom effects are kind of overdone in same games. Oblivion was nice, though.
That's a standard feature of modern videocards. Not sure how far back it goes but you can't go out and buy an ATI or GeForce videocard these days that doesn't have that feature.
That's wierd, because it doens't work on GRAW and Vegas (I have a 7800GTX OC).
It may work on the new 8800 Series, but if the software doesn't allow it, the videocard can't override that.
I can only speculate, but I do believe that GRAW, SC:CT/DA, and R6 (all Ubisoft, Unreal engine variations from what I understand) couldn't force FSAA due to the engine limitation while utilizing SM 3.0.
I haven't played Chaos Theory in a while, but I remember first loading it up with SM 3.0 and saying "Woah, this lighting, colors, and the shadows look really cool". The icing faded quite fast and I started noticing lots of the jagged edges due to lack of AA. I remember dropping the shader model option down and all of a sudden the in-game AA options opened up (were greyed out or something before).
Now take the Source engine. IIRC DoD:S was able to have the HDR option on with AA. Again, I haven't played these games in a while (no longer on my HD, either) so my information may be off, or completely wrong. Basically what I'm saying is that I'm with you Ark. If I have to turn off some of the post eyecandy and HDR to be able to enable FSAA then so be it. I have a 7800GTX KO ACS like you, so I know it can't support both simultaneously (if SHIV even supports them simultaneously with the newer 88xxx series cards). I think some of the HDR/bloom effects are kind of overdone in same games. Oblivion was nice, though.
I think you're right about SM 3.0 being the issue. IIRC, I read that from a dev. on the GRAW forums (it's been a while though).
I also agree about some of the effects being overdone. I do like the look of Oblivion and WWII Online though, both seem to strike a pretty good balance.
elite_hunter_sh3
03-01-07, 08:29 PM
I think console games have there purpose just as PC Games do. My problem is when a company has to make 1 game that will run on both. The PC version always loses because it's easier to simplify a games controls then it is to enhance them.
When it comes to this XBOX 360 vs PC pair-up, we can thank M$ for the simplified PC games. One of the requirements to allow the "Games for Windows" slogan to be used on a PC box is that the game developer must allow the use of XBOX 360 controls in the game.
Also, thanks to M$, don't expect any Graphic Card battles anymore:cry: . M$ has spoken and has stated that ALL PC Graphic Card manufacturers will have to conform to 1 standard so that they are all on the same page so that M$ can control which feature will be produced and used in VI$TA.
THANKS BILL:stare:
enyone want to waste that 50 billion s.o.b???:nope::nope::nope::nope::nope::x:|\\
I think console games have there purpose just as PC Games do. My problem is when a company has to make 1 game that will run on both. The PC version always loses because it's easier to simplify a games controls then it is to enhance them.
When it comes to this XBOX 360 vs PC pair-up, we can thank M$ for the simplified PC games. One of the requirements to allow the "Games for Windows" slogan to be used on a PC box is that the game developer must allow the use of XBOX 360 controls in the game.
Also, thanks to M$, don't expect any Graphic Card battles anymore:cry: . M$ has spoken and has stated that ALL PC Graphic Card manufacturers will have to conform to 1 standard so that they are all on the same page so that M$ can control which feature will be produced and used in VI$TA.
THANKS BILL:stare:
Developers don't even have to develop for Vista if they don't want too.
Btw, MS can't directly mandate the business practices of other business. They aren't the federal government. ;)
I think console games have there purpose just as PC Games do. My problem is when a company has to make 1 game that will run on both. The PC version always loses because it's easier to simplify a games controls then it is to enhance them.
When it comes to this XBOX 360 vs PC pair-up, we can thank M$ for the simplified PC games. One of the requirements to allow the "Games for Windows" slogan to be used on a PC box is that the game developer must allow the use of XBOX 360 controls in the game.
Also, thanks to M$, don't expect any Graphic Card battles anymore:cry: . M$ has spoken and has stated that ALL PC Graphic Card manufacturers will have to conform to 1 standard so that they are all on the same page so that M$ can control which feature will be produced and used in VI$TA.
THANKS BILL:stare:
enyone want to waste that 50 billion s.o.b???:nope::nope::nope::nope::nope::x:|\\
Without him, you'd have a MAC. :D
GSpector
03-01-07, 09:11 PM
Developers don't even have to develop for Vista if they don't want too. :)
Btw, MS can't directly mandate the business practices of other business. They aren't the federal government.
Actually, I do believe M$ can dictate if they wish to (and they do).
1st, the Graphic Card Mfgr's are making the Cards for VI$TA (a M$ Product).
2nd, To fully utilize VI$TA features, they have to build in DirectX 10 drivers (also a M$ Product).
It is because of these 2 points, M$ can dictate who creates what for VI$TA. Direct X will control the Video features so that puts M$ in a unique position to dictate what Cards can and can't do.
Now, if a company wants to create a Card for another OS, they can do what they want, just like it used to be.
All this started to really change when M$ created this "Games for Windows" push. M$ is even try to get pushy with retailers to dictate where on the shelves "Game for Windows" titles will go for maximum visibility, leaving other titles a little harder to find.
Don't take my word for it. do the research. It has been already published in PC Gaming Mags already.:know:
Developers don't even have to develop for Vista if they don't want too. :)
Btw, MS can't directly mandate the business practices of other business. They aren't the federal government.
Actually, I do believe M$ can dictate if they wish to (and they do).
1st, the Graphic Card Mfgr's are making the Cards for VI$TA (a M$ Product).
2nd, To fully utilize VI$TA features, they have to build in DirectX 10 drivers (also a M$ Product).
It is because of these 2 points, M$ can dictate who creates what for VI$TA. Direct X will control the Video features so that puts M$ in a unique position to dictate what Cards can and can't do.
Now, if a company wants to create a Card for another OS, they can do what they want, just like it used to be.
All this started to really change when M$ created this "Games for Windows" push. M$ is even try to get pushy with retailers to dictate where on the shelves "Game for Windows" titles will go for maximum visibility, leaving other titles a little harder to find.
Don't take my word for it. do the research. It has been already published in PC Gaming Mags already.:know:
The only control they have is over software submitted directly to them, hence the confines set up for XBox 360 develpment. MS told game developers who wanted to develop for the XBox 360 to work within a set of guidlines so that functionality and ease of development existed. With regards to the PC, if developers want their games to function inside of the Vista environment, then they obviously have to work within the confines of that enviroment. MS isn't "forcing" anybody to do anything.
MS simply can't just control whoever they want. The only companies MS can have direct control over are the companies they own a majority of the stock in. MS can't force any of the other companies to do anything they don't want to do. That's not how business works. What MS can do, is put restrictions on the development of items that will be used on their hardware like the XBox 360. MS is by no means forcing anybody to do anything, since nobody is forcing game developers to develop for the XBox 360 in the first place.
As far as MS dictating where their items go on the shelf, that has always been there, in fact, there are other game producers that do the same thing (at least with regards to CompUSA and EB Games while I worked at both places quite a while ago). How? Easy, because they pay for the shelf space. You didn't think retailers put items on the shelf for free did you? ;)
With regards to your initial 2 points:
1. Do you think they are doing that becuase MS told them too? No. Videocard manufacturers are gearing up for DX10 because they want thier games to look better then the other guy's. MS is a moot issue to a videocard manufacturer or game developer....the only thing that matters is the bottom line and how it effects their fiscal earnings. MS provides the environment, it is up to everybody else how they work within it.
2. Videocard manufactures are designing DX10 drivers because they are required in order to utilize DX10 features down the line. Vista is the next evolution, albeit a rather crappy one, IMO (except for Office 2007...that rocks).
Videocard manufacturers don't have to develop for Vista. They have to if they want to use DX10 features...nobody is forcing them to create DX10 products. Having the best graphics card on the planet that runs the latest DX is good for their business....they are the ones getting paid when their cards sell.
MS: Hey, if you want to run DX10, you are going to need to develop in a Vista environment.
Nvidia: We don't want too.
Answer 1: MS: Ok, it's your business. <---True.
Answer 2: MS: Nope, you MUST develop for us now, even though we don't own you, don't control your board of directors, don't own a majority of your stock, don't have any employees working for you, and have no actual bearing on your bottom line. <--False
See what I'm getting at?
I'm really tired, so if the above doesn't make sense I have an excuse. I get loopy when I'm tired. lol :D
Meh not having AA won't bother me, I always turn off AA anyways, I had AA on in guild wars once but I didn't knotice any difference in graphics and it hit my frames to hard so I turned them off.
(yes I never post on these forums anymore :P)
GSpector
03-02-07, 05:53 AM
Ark, I would almost agree with you but then that would not explain what happened to Creative Labs Audigy drivers not working in VI$TA.
If what you say is true, that M$ has no control over manufacturers, then all the end user's (us) have to do is install the Audigy drivers in VI$TA and you have sound. It would make no difference if VI$TA had the drivers pre-installed or not.
Guess what, M$ decided since Creative did not contact M$ in a timely manor, the drivers were omitted and now will not work until M$ decides they will by reaching some agreement.
One would think, if M$ worked like any other company, they should have contacted Creative, not the other way around.
Case in point, if you created a Sim and wanted to use Audigy sound drivers, do you think Creative would contact you 1st.:hmm:
I understand about the issue with Graphic Cards needing DX10 drivers if they want to utilize the best graphics in VI$TA but if I am not mistaken, it was because of the battle between the Graphic Card companies that pushed the industry standards and they were the ones that created things like AA and Shadows and Shaders, not M$.
Now all Graphic Cards Manufatures will be told what to develop by M$ where as before M$ had no control over it. No more then UBI has control over the MODs created by Subsim members.
You can keep thinking M$ has no control of any kind and that's fine, but you would still be wrong.
I for one hope the Manufatures continue to work with XP or even Linux. But if they want to work in VI$TA, they will be told what to do. That puts control in M$'s hands, not there's.
Do a little research. I do not say these things because I dislike M$, I say them because these facts have been published in national magazines like "PC Gamer" and "Games for Windows" (formaly known as "Computer Gaming World").
StandingCow
03-02-07, 06:30 AM
The creative thing does not surprise me... they have gotten really bad recently, they cannot even fix a crackling issue many are having, I was having it as well but a different motherboard fixed it.
But, to get back on subject, I normally turn it down as well, but in a game like this with wires... I would try and have it on.
Flanker15
03-03-07, 08:36 AM
You can get AA to run in anygame on PC wether it's in the game already or not. I would recommend using a program like Nview to control things that arn't controlable ingame, as it has alot more options. The blurry look that you get in games if you force AA is due to it running in super sampling AA Nview alows you to chose the non-blurry multi sampling which only AAs the edges of textures.
So I would recommend using a program like Nview for nvidia or something similar for ATI and you can use it for all your games if you want as it gives you full control of AA AF vsync ect and overrides all driver and game settings ,quite useful
Also if SHIV uses the HDR lighting like Oblivion you won't be able to use AA with it on unless you have a card that supports it like Oblivion. If it uses the HDR like source engine or SHIII which is less complex you can still use AA.
You can get AA to run in anygame on PC wether it's in the game already or not.
Not if it's GRAW, Vegas, and possbily the newer SC game.
FSAA, no matter what 3rd party program you use, just doesn't work. The engine used by GRIN just didn't allow it. IIRC, even when we dropped the shader-model down we couldn't get FSAA to work. That's why they added in a "smoother" option in one of the patches.
Flanker15
03-04-07, 12:23 AM
Interesting that even a 3rd party program cant override the AA, well I guess it dosn't matter. All these new graphical effects are starting to take their toll on my aging system so I guess AA is the first thing to go for me!
Interesting that even a 3rd party program cant override the AA, well I guess it dosn't matter. All these new graphical effects are starting to take their toll on my aging system so I guess AA is the first thing to go for me!
From the looks of the SHIV menus, it appears that we can shut off post-processing effects and what Ubi refers to as "Scene Glare" (which I'm guessing might be similar to HDR). If this is the case, we should definatley be able to force FSAA despite what series of videocard. :)
Flanker15
03-04-07, 04:21 AM
Interesting that even a 3rd party program cant override the AA, well I guess it dosn't matter. All these new graphical effects are starting to take their toll on my aging system so I guess AA is the first thing to go for me!
From the looks of the SHIV menus, it appears that we can shut off post-processing effects and what Ubi refers to as "Scene Glare" (which I'm guessing might be similar to HDR). If this is the case, we should definatley be able to force FSAA despite what series of videocard. :)
Indeed but after playing Oblivion with HDR I didn't care about no AA anymore because I thought it was worth it, proper HDR (not that dynamic bloom HDR in sorce engine) really inproves a games presentation.
squigian
03-04-07, 06:11 AM
Ah, HDR. I hate the stuff, personally - much better to just have FSAA. I remember Oblivion's radioactive sheep and the shining walls of Source...they're not good memories. As long as we can force it.
Sulikate
03-06-07, 05:00 PM
Oh my... take a look at this (from IGN's preview)
Note to devs - if you've somehow broken AA due to one of your sexy graphical techniques, prepare to feel your pride at releasing an otherwise awesome sim be submerged. You will not be forgiven
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
:nope::nope::nope::nope:
:cry::cry::cry::cry:
It can be!!!!!!!!!!
Barkhorn1x
03-06-07, 05:27 PM
Oh my... take a look at this (from IGN's preview)
Note to devs - if you've somehow broken AA due to one of your sexy graphical techniques, prepare to feel your pride at releasing an otherwise awesome sim be submerged. You will not be forgiven
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
:nope::nope::nope::nope:
:cry::cry::cry::cry:
It can be!!!!!!!!!!
Deep breath - this was in all likelyhood the same Neal Stevens code that the French guys were playing as well. That code did not have AA.
Wr still don't KNOW what the deal is w/ the production code - or if you can force it via the windows control panel.
Now, having said that - it has been my experience that:
- If there is an issue that is driving the boards crazy- say the availability of AA in this case. :doh:
- And there is regular dev. feedback on questions - say the daily Dev. question/response feature at UBI in this case. :know:
- And the devs. never really get around to answering the question. :hmm:
- That does not bode well for the future. :nope:
Barkhorn
Sulikate
03-06-07, 06:00 PM
Yes, I hope we can force it like we did in SHIII :cry:
Wait and see:arrgh!:
Oh my... take a look at this (from IGN's preview)
Note to devs - if you've somehow broken AA due to one of your sexy graphical techniques, prepare to feel your pride at releasing an otherwise awesome sim be submerged. You will not be forgiven
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
:nope::nope::nope::nope:
:cry::cry::cry::cry:
It can be!!!!!!!!!!
Deep breath - this was in all likelyhood the same Neal Stevens code that the French guys were playing as well. That code did not have AA.
Wr still don't KNOW what the deal is w/ the production code - or if you can force it via the windows control panel.
Now, having said that - it has been my experience that:
- If there is an issue that is driving the boards crazy- say the availability of AA in this case. :doh:
- And there is regular dev. feedback on questions - say the daily Dev. question/response feature at UBI in this case. :know:
- And the devs. never really get around to answering the question. :hmm:
- That does not bode well for the future. :nope:
Barkhorn
That's pretty much my take on it.
However, there is one thing to note about that preview. In screenshots of the options screen (here at Subsim), there is an option to turn off post-processing effects and "Sun Glare". I would guess that the "Sun Glare" (which I think we all can probably agree is more than likely Ubisoft renaming HDR) would be causing this. If we can turn it off...maybe we can get FSAA back (even though this didn't work in GRAW or Vegas).
Barkhorn1x
03-06-07, 09:44 PM
However, there is one thing to note about that preview. In screenshots of the options screen (here at Subsim), there is an option to turn off post-processing effects and "Sun Glare". I would guess that the "Sun Glare" (which I think we all can probably agree is more than likely Ubisoft renaming HDR) would be causing this. If we can turn it off...maybe we can get FSAA back (even though this didn't work in GRAW or Vegas).
We can only hope as you and I agree that we can do without that kind of artifice.
Crosseye76
03-07-07, 03:36 AM
Indeed.
Ah, HDR. I hate the stuff, personally - much better to just have FSAA. I remember Oblivion's radioactive sheep and the shining walls of Source...they're not good memories. As long as we can force it.
lol they always over do HDR.... Halflife 2 almost blinded me on several occations :o
So im alittle confused here.... will SH4 have bloom and AA? SH3 didnt have AA and it hardly looked bad with the high resolution mod on
Sulikate
03-07-07, 12:00 PM
Ah, HDR. I hate the stuff, personally - much better to just have FSAA. I remember Oblivion's radioactive sheep and the shining walls of Source...they're not good memories. As long as we can force it.
lol they always over do HDR.... Halflife 2 almost blinded me on several occations :o
So im alittle confused here.... will SH4 have bloom and AA? SH3 didnt have AA and it hardly looked bad with the high resolution mod on HDR is sometimes overdone indeed:dead:. About SH3, it didn't have built-in FSAA but it could be forced by using your video card's controls.
Ah, HDR. I hate the stuff, personally - much better to just have FSAA. I remember Oblivion's radioactive sheep and the shining walls of Source...they're not good memories. As long as we can force it.
lol they always over do HDR.... Halflife 2 almost blinded me on several occations :o
So im alittle confused here.... will SH4 have bloom and AA? SH3 didnt have AA and it hardly looked bad with the high resolution mod on HDR is sometimes overdone indeed:dead:. About SH3, it didn't have built-in FSAA but it could be forced by using your video card's controls.
Yep, only difference is SH3 utilized post-processing effects (Shift + PgUp) which automatically disabled any forced FSAA. This perplexes me since there are some older games out there with smaller budgets that can use post-processing effects and FSAA (WWII Online).
SHIV seems to have both post-processing effects and "Sun Glare" (Sun Glare, I imagine, = HDR). I am anxious to see how the Dev. team incorporated these two graphical options in-game and their seperate effect on forced FSAA. I noticed they are both options in the settings menu, so there is definately still hope for forced FSAA...it just may require us to "uncheck" one or two options. This is unfortunate, but I can do without HDR or HDR-like effects anyways. I agree that it is often too overdone in games. There are parts of GRAW that give me light myopia. lol
OneTinSoldier
03-07-07, 04:13 PM
I don't just want FSAA... I need it! :yep: Since the question has apparently never been answered by the Devs, I'm waiting for the game to come out first in order to find out about this important functionality. I'm curious, is that what most other people in this thread have decided to do too?
Cheers
DJSatane
03-07-07, 05:49 PM
It seems noone mentioned this, maybe they trying to keep it low key, but if aa is not supported this will be a big breaker for many people as nowdays all new games most people run with aa on. Plus I fear it will also affect reviews. I would love to hear from the devs on this issue. I have hope aa works though, please!
I don't just want FSAA... I need it! :yep: Since the question has apparently never been answered by the Devs, I'm waiting for the game to come out first in order to find out about this important functionality. I'm curious, is that what most other people in this thread have decided to do too?
Cheers
That's the crux of the issue, OT. Many of us, I imagine, will still buy the product...therein lies the issue........
If many of us will buy it, or end up buying it anyways, where's the motivation to try and implement it in? :nope: :(
As much as I HATE the idea of no FSAA, I love Sub sims. Will it adversely affect my opinion of the game? Most definately. But I did pre-order it anyways knowing this. In fact, I think I may have been the first to start the "No FSAA?" line of questioning. lol
Barkhorn1x
03-07-07, 09:16 PM
In fact, I think I may have been the first to start the "No FSAA?" line of questioning. lol
Yea, that was you. :yep:
Safe-Keeper
03-07-07, 09:56 PM
I'll buy it even without anti-aliasing. Firstly it still looks good, and secondly, graphics aren't important to me anyhow.
DJSatane
03-07-07, 10:34 PM
This is very important, although I would prefer for multiplayer server client damage bug from sh3 to be fixed, then I will be happy.
JamesDeFontana
03-08-07, 03:46 AM
http://ati.de/products/radeonx1k/imagequality.html
Seems like Ati X1000 series support HDR and FSAA at the same time
DJSatane
03-08-07, 03:54 AM
http://ati.de/products/radeonx1k/imagequality.html
Seems like Ati X1000 series support HDR and FSAA at the same time
More of a reason why there should be no excuse for SH4 not to support FSAA when someone has card from that series. I have x1950 xt and I truly hope fsaa will work on sh4. Too bad they didnt mention what card they used for that preview on IGN site.
The Renegade
03-08-07, 09:35 PM
So I've just realized something and I have a question. I know it's not yet confirmed if there is AA available in game or if it can be forced, but if it is present or can be forced, would a Radeon X800 XL be able to run with HDR and AA at the same time? I ask this because I know that the X1000 series can run it, and that it is a big advantage for ATI and I always hear about it. But my X800 XL isn't in the X1000 series, and yet, I can play HL2: Episode 1 with both HDR and AA! So do ATI cards that aren't in the X1000 series support both HDR and AA simultaneously?
This is probably just some paranoid, anxious thought I just had, but hey, it would be awesome to have HDR and AA at the same time instead of sacrificing one for the other.
http://ati.de/products/radeonx1k/imagequality.html
Seems like Ati X1000 series support HDR and FSAA at the same time
Apparently, so can the 8800 series from Nvidia.
However, if the engine won't support it, new drivers more than likely won't change that. *GRAW* lol
JamesDeFontana
03-09-07, 06:42 AM
http://ati.de/products/radeonx1k/imagequality.html
Seems like Ati X1000 series support HDR and FSAA at the same time
Apparently, so can the 8800 series from Nvidia.
However, if the engine won't support it, new drivers more than likely won't change that. *GRAW* lol
You`re very right Ark, forgot about the nVidia 8800 and if the game engine will suport FSAA + HDR or not we will find out in a few days:up:
All the best
Nightmare
03-09-07, 11:58 AM
So I've just realized something and I have a question. I know it's not yet confirmed if there is AA available in game or if it can be forced, but if it is present or can be forced, would a Radeon X800 XL be able to run with HDR and AA at the same time? I ask this because I know that the X1000 series can run it, and that it is a big advantage for ATI and I always hear about it. But my X800 XL isn't in the X1000 series, and yet, I can play HL2: Episode 1 with both HDR and AA! So do ATI cards that aren't in the X1000 series support both HDR and AA simultaneously?
This is probably just some paranoid, anxious thought I just had, but hey, it would be awesome to have HDR and AA at the same time instead of sacrificing one for the other.
I wouldn't count on it. I had an X800XT that would do both HDR and AA at the same time for HL2. However it would not do both in Oblivion. If AA is even available in SH4 (it's entirely up in the air from what I've read, and the developers haven't squashed any of the rumors), the only real safe bet would be either a X1000 series or Nvidia's 8800 series.
The Renegade
03-11-07, 02:59 PM
I wouldn't count on it. I had an X800XT that would do both HDR and AA at the same time for HL2. However it would not do both in Oblivion. If AA is even available in SH4 (it's entirely up in the air from what I've read, and the developers haven't squashed any of the rumors), the only real safe bet would be either a X1000 series or Nvidia's 8800 series.
Thanks for that info, even if it is upsetting. It just means that a video card upgrade is definitely in order. Now I just gotta pick one from all the different offerings out there....
That aside, I hope AA is available in SH4. It really is nice to have.
DJSatane
03-11-07, 03:14 PM
I cant wait for a review because it seems noone from UBI or dev wants to talk about this issue(after i asked whether aa will work in sh4 on ubi ask the developers thread - they locked it and ended the questions). I truly hope aa can be used on sh4.
Paajtor
03-11-07, 03:55 PM
Theky locked it and ended the questions?
What an unhealthy way to handle future-customers!:down:
Still I hope it's possible, to force through driver-settings, just like SH3 and Red Orchestra.
In fact, I run both games at the exact same settings.
Theky locked it and ended the questions?
What an unhealthy way to handle future-customers!:down:
Still I hope it's possible, to force through driver-settings, just like SH3 and Red Orchestra.
In fact, I run both games at the exact same settings.
SH3 does't have the same graphics features as SHIV. Turn on bloom in SH3 (Shift + PgUp) and all of your forced FSAA will disappear.
OneTinSoldier
03-11-07, 09:55 PM
Ok. I posted this in another thread, but it was really meant for this one...
I will now take this time to kneel before our god, Neal Neptune Stevens, who's spirit is always with us just below our keel...
Oh father who art below us, please do not let Ubi deliver unto us a Kracken from the depths. Give us this day our daily FSAA, through SHIV our Sim, Amen.
So with the latest reviews from some users it seems like that SH4 is definitely without AA. Now its obvious why no one from the officials wanted to answer this question.
Sulikate
03-18-07, 01:12 PM
So with the latest reviews from some users it seems like that SH4 is definitely without AA. Now its obvious why no one from the officials wanted to answer this question.
I agree :-?
Hey all,
My apoligies for harping about FSAA in so many of your threads. It was not my intention to clutter up your threads with FSAA speculaiton/arguing. I am done doing that, so I hope those of you who have threads that have turned into FSAA discussions accept my apology.
Since it is apparent that FSAA is not in-game, I think it is best that we move on from the issue. Us talking about it certainly is not going to change it this late in the game. We can either choose to accept it, or not buy SHIV. I love subsims, so I am going to be getting the product anyways and give it a chance.
Many of us are disappointed in this aspect of the product, but SHIV is still SHIV. Whether we "need" FSAA or not, we are all here for the same reasons; our mutual excitement for SHIV and subsims in general. It is my opinion that we focus on these two aspects rather than our distaste for a singular design decision. If you want to voice your discontent for the lack of FSAA, then email the development team. We are not going to get anywhere just talking about it here. All we end up doing is messing up everybody elses threads and ultimately cluttering up the forum making it harder for new member to find/provide information. Subsim.com has always been the one bastion of information I can go to without having to fight my way through US bashing, political arguments, and other nonsense. Let's do our best to protect the sanctity of this place and not turn it into "yet another videogame forum". :up:
SH3 worked fine without AA. SH4 will be great as well.
AA has never been my concern in any game I play.
Once you get used to AA, games without it are absolutely painful to look at. Especially games where you've got lots of thin lines, like gun barrels, cables, railings . . .
Once you get used to AA, games without it are absolutely painful to look at. Especially games where you've got lots of thin lines, like gun barrels, cables, railings . . .
Doesn't pain me at all, I bounce between new (AA) and old (low rez) games all the time, a little jagged edges make no difference to me. Right now I'm in the middle of a Fleet Defender WWIII campaign (320x200, staircase level jaggies). I could care less, the game is a blast.
Onkel Neal
03-18-07, 02:30 PM
Yes, SH4 does have AA. Why, I shot down a Kate and two Zeros before breakfast. :ping:
geetrue
03-18-07, 02:35 PM
There you have it ... right from the horses mouth, uh sorry Neal :lol:
I mean the bosses mouth ... :up:
Drebbel
03-18-07, 02:38 PM
Yes, SH4 does have AA. Why, I shot down a Kate and two Zeros before breakfast. :ping:
:rotfl:
moosenoodles
03-18-07, 03:18 PM
thats just priceless :rotfl:
JamesT73J
03-18-07, 03:23 PM
I respect I may have different priorities to most people, but like the SHIII '1024-Gate' resolution scandal, this is simply a non issue for me. I couldn't care less if it doesn't have FSAA. I seldom bother with it in most games anyway.
Barkhorn1x
03-18-07, 04:33 PM
Anyone know if it can be forced via the vid card control panel?
nhall70
03-18-07, 04:49 PM
Anyone know if it can be forced via the vid card control panel?
Initial reports are that it CANNOT be forced and this seems to confirm what many of us feared. Unfortunately, it looks like SH4 will not under any circustances allow FSAA to work.
OneTinSoldier
03-18-07, 05:19 PM
I thought I heard some cluckin' when I was at Ubi.
The question had been asked several times whether or not the game supported AA on the Ubi forum, but they brought in some chickens that were scared to answer whether or not the game supported it!
Arrowhead2k1
03-18-07, 05:27 PM
I bet it's because of the HDR, and they aren't offering an option to turn it off so that we can run AA. I'd take even 2xAA over HDR anyday!
Arrowhead2k1
03-18-07, 05:28 PM
I couldn't care less if it doesn't have FSAA. I seldom bother with it in most games anyway.
If you did bother, you'd notice that the difference between jaggies and no jaggies is night and day. Unless you need glasses or something.
nhall70
03-18-07, 05:32 PM
I thought I heard some cluckin' when I was at Ubi.
The question had been asked several times whether or not the game supported AA on the Ubi forum, but they brought in some chickens that were scared to answer whether or not the game supported it!
Yea, they've been avoiding this question like the plague! Their silence is deafening...another hit game from Jaggiesoft.
The Battlefront combat games do not support AA. Sonalysts Dangerous Waters doesn't support AA, so UBI isn't the only one.
As some have mentioned, a close look at screenies posted so far LOOK like there is SOME AA going on with the larger angles on deck railings and turrets.
When a large number of us finally start opening the boxes this issue will get settled. Untill then...
ATI cards have different kinds of AA:
The standard 2x 4x 6x (which can be turned on-off by the game.)
Temporal (checkbox) which in my experience gets applied even if I turn off the AA checkbox in all my games.
Adaptive (checkbox) also seems to over-ride in-game option selection.
The problem with the two game makers I mented at the top is when AA of any kind is enabled by the card software, the games crash or have severe graphic anomalies.
Some here have speculated since IV is based on the modified III game engine, it's not likely requests will be answered to "add" AA to it. Well if any substantial portion of the III engine DOES exist in IV, that engine did not disable the Temporal or Adaptive selections on my cards.
So, among all the by-guess-and-by-golly speculation I would throw in:
1) It's possible the graphics engine has SOME AA built in for the larger pixel edges and the game makers think the presentation they aimed for is preserved with their technique, so no need for an in-game AA switch.
2) Unless the game makers have a way of disabling the optional AA techniques in cards, those may still work (I run Temporal in every game I play which I think looks fantastic.)
3) Any AA no matter what will crash the game so, the makers decided to disable it.
4) From the screen shots I've seen, although there appears to be monster jaggies in places and smoothing in other places, I'm not opposed to the look of the sim and I think I will enjoy it. Cables that do not look solid don't bother me.
5) From the massively upped poligons the devs bragged about, perhaps hardware AA would be sorely pressed and a compromised was reached for performance reasons.
In all this, we are only days away from a concensus eval now.
-Pv-
The Battlefront combat games do not support AA. Sonalysts Dangerous Waters doesn't support AA, so UBI isn't the only one.
As some have mentioned, a close look at screenies posted so far LOOK like there is SOME AA going on with the larger angles on deck railings and turrets.
When a large number of us finally start opening the boxes this issue will get settled. Untill then...
ATI cards have different kinds of AA:
The standard 2x 4x 6x (which can be turned on-off by the game.)
Temporal (checkbox) which in my experience gets applied even if I turn off the AA checkbox in all my games.
Adaptive (checkbox) also seems to over-ride in-game option selection.
The problem with the two game makers I mented at the top is when AA of any kind is enabled by the card software, the games crash or have severe graphic anomalies.
Some here have speculated since IV is based on the modified III game engine, it's not likely requests will be answered to "add" AA to it. Well if any substantial portion of the III engine DOES exist in IV, that engine did not disable the Temporal or Adaptive selections on my cards.
So, among all the by-guess-and-by-golly speculation I would throw in:
1) It's possible the graphics engine has SOME AA built in for the larger pixel edges and the game makers think the presentation they aimed for is preserved with their technique, so no need for an in-game AA switch.
2) Unless the game makers have a way of disabling the optional AA techniques in cards, those may still work (I run Temporal in every game I play which I think looks fantastic.)
3) Any AA no matter what will crash the game so, the makers decided to disable it.
4) From the screen shots I've seen, although there appears to be monster jaggies in places and smoothing in other places, I'm not opposed to the look of the sim and I think I will enjoy it. Cables that do not look solid don't bother me.
5) From the massively upped poligons the devs bragged about, perhaps hardware AA would be sorely pressed and a compromised was reached for performance reasons.
In all this, we are only days away from a concensus eval now.
-Pv-
The past 2-3 games published by Ubisoft do not support FSAA in any form. GRAW and Vegas case in point. Temproal and Adaptive AA didn't function either. FSAA just flat out does not function (It didn't even function when we modified the config files to completely disable HDR).
Disabling HDR and PPE apparently still has no effect. At least, that's the reports from people who own the product (it doesn't work in GRAW and Vegas either). Interesting you should mention the possibility of some form of integrated FSAA though. With GRAW, one of the patches included an option to enable "smoothing" or something tot hat effect (enough people complained about the lack of FSAA). It didn't do very much, but it s better than nothing. I wonder if this "smoothing" is included in SHIV, only not as an option but rather as a built in feature to sort of counter the lack of FSAA. Like you said, it's all speculation though.
The newer Nvidia cards are supposed to be able to handle HDR and FSAA with no problem, so we will find out very soon. :)
It is almost here, and a lot of people seem to be giving the product kudos despite the lack of FSAA, which is quite reassuring. I can't wait to get my grubby paws on it!
Gizzmoe
03-19-07, 12:50 AM
The Battlefront combat games do not support AA. Sonalysts Dangerous Waters doesn't support AA, so UBI isn't the only one.
They do, but only when you force it via the driver.
nhall70
03-19-07, 01:41 AM
The Battlefront combat games do not support AA. Sonalysts Dangerous Waters doesn't support AA, so UBI isn't the only one.
As some have mentioned, a close look at screenies posted so far LOOK like there is SOME AA going on with the larger angles on deck railings and turrets.
When a large number of us finally start opening the boxes this issue will get settled. Untill then...
ATI cards have different kinds of AA:
The standard 2x 4x 6x (which can be turned on-off by the game.)
Temporal (checkbox) which in my experience gets applied even if I turn off the AA checkbox in all my games.
Adaptive (checkbox) also seems to over-ride in-game option selection.
The problem with the two game makers I mented at the top is when AA of any kind is enabled by the card software, the games crash or have severe graphic anomalies.
Some here have speculated since IV is based on the modified III game engine, it's not likely requests will be answered to "add" AA to it. Well if any substantial portion of the III engine DOES exist in IV, that engine did not disable the Temporal or Adaptive selections on my cards.
So, among all the by-guess-and-by-golly speculation I would throw in:
1) It's possible the graphics engine has SOME AA built in for the larger pixel edges and the game makers think the presentation they aimed for is preserved with their technique, so no need for an in-game AA switch.
2) Unless the game makers have a way of disabling the optional AA techniques in cards, those may still work (I run Temporal in every game I play which I think looks fantastic.)
3) Any AA no matter what will crash the game so, the makers decided to disable it.
4) From the screen shots I've seen, although there appears to be monster jaggies in places and smoothing in other places, I'm not opposed to the look of the sim and I think I will enjoy it. Cables that do not look solid don't bother me.
5) From the massively upped poligons the devs bragged about, perhaps hardware AA would be sorely pressed and a compromised was reached for performance reasons.
In all this, we are only days away from a concensus eval now.
-Pv-
I've seen a lot of "hopefull" posts regarding this issue and a lot of people are going to work themselves into a frenzy only to be dissapointed.
There is no FSAA in SH4 of any kind. It cannot be forced...period. The reason I know this is that it's an Ubisoft title. The sooner everyone gets used to that simple fact...the sooner those who don't care about FSAA can have fun with their new subsim.
I myself, care very much. I'll still follow the fun posts on this forum about people's adventures in the South Pacific...but I won't be having any adventures myself. I would pay $500 for a copy of SH4 that supports FSAA...but I won't pay $10 for a copy that doesn't.
It's not supported and it's VERY safe to say that it never will be. This has been a problem with Ubisoft for some time now. If you care about FSAA (and MANY people do) you just have to stay away from Ubisoft.
BTW, I keep seeing these references to HDR+AA. HDR doesn't necessarily mean no AA. Many titles can do both. It depends on how the HDR was implemented. If they used post-processing to accomplish HDR, then there's a conflict with AA. However, there are other ways to do HDR. SH4 uses post-processing for a variety of dumb effects...all the "holywood experience" nonsense. It is likely that this "feature" is what is causing FSAA to not work.
I myself, care very much. I'll still follow the fun posts on this forum about people's adventures in the South Pacific...but I won't be having any adventures myself. I would pay $500 for a copy of SH4 that supports FSAA...but I won't pay $10 for a copy that doesn't.
$500 is a bit to much. But I would pay 100Euro (the price is now around 50Euro). But without AA I wouldnt pay a cent. I will not support this. The hardware is getting better and better and the Devs are now beginning to degenerate the visual quality :doh: . Standards that we have for years now.
Yes, grahpics is not everything. But if I see those jaggies flickering over my screen, 50% of the immersion is killed because my eyes are the main interface between me and the computer.
:down:
Maybe I dont understand something here, but turning on your devices AA & AF from the control panel applies it to the game too. Atleast SHIII did and I didnt see any jagged edges.
Maybe I dont understand something here, but turning on your devices AA & AF from the control panel applies it to the game too. Atleast SHIII did and I didnt see any jagged edges.
But those who have SH4 already say that they can not have AA, even if they force it in the driver.
Drebbel
03-19-07, 03:52 AM
Maybe I am being naif, but who cares about AA if the images look as nice as the posted screenshots. :cool:
Maybe I dont understand something here, but turning on your devices AA & AF from the control panel applies it to the game too. Atleast SHIII did and I didnt see any jagged edges. Yes, but only until you switch the "bloom" effect on (SHIFT / PAGEUP-PAGEDOWN or something)
Perhaps itīs possible in SH4 to turn off that "hollywood effect" stuff with the games .ini file, as soon as my copy has arrived, ill do some testing.
MAybe without any post-processing stuff AA will work...
Lack of AA is really a bit anoying, SH3 was perfectly running with AA forced due driver control panel or external tool on my machine (AtiX800XL)
I own a 19" TFT so especially the wires and masts on ships indeed are looking not so good without AA.
But hey, even itīs impossible to turn AA on in life will go on...
I had a really good time with Silent Service and Pirates! on C64 computer, even without AA :D
Graphics are less important for good game experience...
Hopefully they did the other stuff right.
AAARRRGGGG no, i wont dl with emule, No!! Stop talking to me, AAARGG :damn:
Anyone in germany already got it? I ordered the US import Version at okaysoft for 58 bucks ... :rock::nope:
Maybe I dont understand something here, but turning on your devices AA & AF from the control panel applies it to the game too. Atleast SHIII did and I didnt see any jagged edges.
But those who have SH4 already say that they can not have AA, even if they force it in the driver.
Ah, ok. Thanks for clarifying. :up: But thatīs very weird as I use forced AA most of the time and it works in pretty much every game I can remember. :hmm:
Oh well, the game looks great anyway, so wont bother me too much.:yep:
The General
03-19-07, 04:01 AM
Maybe I am being naif, but who cares about AA if the images look as nice as the posted screenshots. :cool:That's what I said!:)
Maybe I am being naif, but who cares about AA if the images look as nice as the posted screenshots. :cool:
Maybe those who dont like broken wires and masts and ugly jagged edges. Especially in motion!
And in a simulator like SH you have much time to look around.
Maybe I am being naif, but who cares about AA if the images look as nice as the posted screenshots. :cool:
Maybe those who dont like broken wires and masts and ugly jagged edges. Especially in motion!
And in a simulator like SH you have much time to look around.
Got to agree it dont look good at all
Immacolata
03-19-07, 07:42 AM
Ye, I'd gladly sacrifice all kinds of photo gloss effects if it gets me my AA back.
...
releasing game without FSAA in 2007. Pff. :damn:
nhall70
03-19-07, 10:05 AM
Maybe I am being naif, but who cares about AA if the images look as nice as the posted screenshots. :cool:That's what I said!:)
One thing to keep in mind while you're evaluating screenshots is that they're not moving. The jagged lines are still present, but they're not as distracting in a static shot. Most videos of in-game footage are captured at a very low resolution which also tends to hide the problems associated with no FSAA.
I agree that the screenshots look very nice indeed. But I also know what a 3D graphics image looks like in motion without FSAA and it's awful.
To those who say "we used to get along without it before"...that's true...seven years ago. We used to play games in 16 colors too. This might seem like an extreme example to some, but for those of us who have become accustomed to the benefits of FSAA over the seven years, doing without it is every bit as bad as that.
I don't know. The game looks amazing and seeing it in action makes you appreciate it ten times more. The screenshots do more damage than good in my opinion.
The game runs in high-ish resolutions and on a decent monitor the jaggies are not an issue whatsoever (at least not with the post processing enabled). I'm not saying Jaggies disappear, but they aren't as prevalant as the number of people crying about it (at least not on my setup and I run it with everything on maximum - so your mileage may vary I couldn't honestly say)
The difference between 'jaggies' and 'no jaggies' is not light and day either. 3D engines do not work on that simple a premise, and jaggies don't necessarily have to be considered as a negative in a well constructed engine (AA can interfere with some special effects and has negative impact upon peformance - it's not a perfect solution to the problem).
The ruckus over the 'hollywood' effect is unjustified also. It might not be photo-realistic, but it is incredibly atmospheric. There is an artistic sensiblity that nobody seems to really care for these days. Put in bloom, HDR, bump mapping, all those other special effects... yeah that will solve everything and make it look automatically great (sarcasm!).
Well SH4 looks marvelous, and it's not a collection of special effects buzzwods that are there to sell the game as meaningless disjointed eyecandy - it's a very focused and artistically appreciable design.
People who play without the post-processing are missing the point in my opinion and people who complain about jaggies are being far too critical.
I'm speaking as someone who has just dropped in on the release. The predominant complaint is the lack of anti-aliasing and how game breaking it is - but there are far more pertinent issues relating to the actual gameplay that should be focused upon.
nhall70
03-19-07, 12:40 PM
I don't know. The game looks amazing and seeing it in action makes you appreciate it ten times more. The screenshots do more damage than good in my opinion.
The game runs in high-ish resolutions and on a decent monitor the jaggies are not an issue whatsoever (at least not with the post processing enabled). I'm not saying Jaggies disappear, but they aren't as prevalant as the number of people crying about it (at least not on my setup and I run it with everything on maximum - so your mileage may vary I couldn't honestly say)
The difference between 'jaggies' and 'no jaggies' is not light and day either. 3D engines do not work on that simple a premise, and jaggies don't necessarily have to be considered as a negative in a well constructed engine (AA can interfere with some special effects and has negative impact upon peformance - it's not a perfect solution to the problem).
The ruckus over the 'hollywood' effect is unjustified also. It might not be photo-realistic, but it is incredibly atmospheric. There is an artistic sensiblity that nobody seems to really care for these days. Put in bloom, HDR, bump mapping, all those other special effects... yeah that will solve everything and make it look automatically great (sarcasm!).
Well SH4 looks marvelous, and it's not a collection of special effects buzzwods that are there to sell the game as meaningless disjointed eyecandy - it's a very focused and artistically appreciable design.
People who play without the post-processing are missing the point in my opinion and people who complain about jaggies are being far too critical.
I'm speaking as someone who has just dropped in on the release. The predominant complaint is the lack of anti-aliasing and how game breaking it is - but there are far more pertinent issues relating to the actual gameplay that should be focused upon.
You're probably right. For those people who can get past it, SH4 is probably a great game. For those of us who can't...it's an absolute show stopper, which is too bad (for us anyway :)).
I guess for me, the thing that's so frustrating about this is that the devs don't have to do anything to support FSAA. It's probably the easiest feature in the world for them to support. All they have to do is NOT do anything that renders it unusable!
Ubisoft has pulled this on three games in a row now and there has been a similar outcry in the forums for all three of these games. When are they going to get it right? They REALLY need to dump this engine they're using a develop a good one.
So, is the 360 better for gaming? I've always thought that PC's are the best platforms for gaming. YOu can't buy silent hunter, DW, IL2, or any other sim for that matter on consoles. I think that the really old nintendo came out with silent service way back in the day, but that's about it, right? I'll settle for less graphic quality, which is weird, for a better game, like a simulation. The reason it's weird is that I thought PC's were or are supposed to be better than a console. I mean, that's why we hand over the big bucks for a computer. Maybe I'm way off base, but it seems that most video game companies make console games on a pc, I think.
anyway, I'm not afraid of consoles, I have a ps2, but I want all the extra goodies that a pc can offer. For example, in GTA:SA, the map is very small compared to the world wide maps of simulations.
I guess the future will hold all the answers, but I'll be there playing games!
The console vs pc debate has been going on for years. The way I see it, if you have a PC for other reasons (applications, internet, DVD, etc.) then it's a natural to add game entertainment to the mix. At this point in the evolution, consoles are strickly entertainment although some versatility is slowly being added. The driving point is cost. If parents are not buying expensive PCs for general purpose and use around the home, young game players are then going to buy less expensive dedicated systems they can take to their friend's house.
PCs will continue to be more powerful for a long time to come attracting the game designers who love a challenge.
Perhaps consoles will eventually turn into PCs and PCs will eventually morph into consoles and there will no longer be any distinction to argue about. Every machine will play every game, run Word and surf the Internet. Even washing machines.
On AA:
A lot of judgement is being applied by people who don't own the game. I put down my money before this debate on AA ever had a chance to start, so I guess I will live with my decision. Right now I'm having trouble keeping my heart ticking regular for the next few days. As soon as a release date was announced, I scheduled a vacation and I'm not going to eat or sleep for several days. When I go back to work, I'll have to drop anchor at my desk and pipe the commander ashore to keep from shouting DIVE DIVE all day.
I agree that static screen shots give an idea of features, atmosphere and mood, but not very good on performance and animation. The dev team poured screen movies at us for months. I didn't see any AA shouting during that time. I see at least one satisfied customer so far. Lets see what happens when we get more of the committed playing the game.
Those who have decided they don't like the game because it's in the Pacific, SHIII wasn't developed enough, and there may not be control over AA in the game will be able to take to heart all the miriad other faults the community will find over time and feel satisfied their investment wasn't wasted on this title (no sarcasm intended.) Sharp eyes have already spotted the "m" for meters when the game engine is probably feet by default and I will have to get used to a reversed rudder control after years of clicking on the top-to-bottom control. As a trade-off, I will probably click the correct direction for engine reverse more often now.
With all that said, I've also been on the other end of the issue with a recent new release of a very popular game title. I had posted messages in forums saying why I returned the game after purchasing it and boy did I get the flames. It's as if the purchasers' enthusiasm for buying the game had been ripped from their soul. Life as they knew it was threatened by my dislike for the game. I'm not like that with these posts. It's my hope we can all find the entertainment that best matches our buget and mood. I would also like to see a good production effort supported so that effort may continue. Toward that goal, I've purchased every sub sim that has come out since the mid-80s and most of the titles have had some compromises I've had to live with. Some were nearly unplayable (Gato, Red October.) This might be unique to me, but if the underlying logic and game play is solid and play value is retained for an extended time (thank you dynamic campaign) there are a lot of graphic anomalies I can live with until the next great title comes out.
I'm not going to defend a game I've not even played. For all I know the promotion department at UBI gets an award for a superb snow job. Maybe the game's a real stinker. I'm anxious to discover what lies within by putting my money down on a good bet and peeling back the cover myself. It's likely I've already sold myself and I'll be completely enthralled with an unplayable game.
My money. My risk. If the next sub title from Romania is the Kursk during war games in Northern Russia, then I'll buy that too. Sonalysts could use some competition.
-Pv-
So, is the 360 better for gaming? I've always thought that PC's are the best platforms for gaming. YOu can't buy silent hunter, DW, IL2, or any other sim for that matter on consoles. I think that the really old nintendo came out with silent service way back in the day, but that's about it, right? I'll settle for less graphic quality, which is weird, for a better game, like a simulation. The reason it's weird is that I thought PC's were or are supposed to be better than a console. I mean, that's why we hand over the big bucks for a computer. Maybe I'm way off base, but it seems that most video game companies make console games on a pc, I think.
anyway, I'm not afraid of consoles, I have a ps2, but I want all the extra goodies that a pc can offer. For example, in GTA:SA, the map is very small compared to the world wide maps of simulations.
I guess the future will hold all the answers, but I'll be there playing games!
For sims, the PC is the only platform you can really use - but then again, the sim market is struggling to survive. First Person Shooters are still best on PCs (if only because of the mods) but there are some console examples that are stealing some of the PC thunder (Halo, R6 Vegas, CoD3 are some current examples).
For anything else (e.g. regular gaming) the odds are it'll be easier to play on a console since 1) things work first time (although the latest console patches are a worrisome development) 2) the game is configured/optimised for the console 3) everyone will have basically the same install, so multiplayer is easier to set up and use. Besides which there are many extremely good games which are not available for PC (well emulation is a different matter!).
As for hardware prices - yes a good spec. PC costs more than a contemporary console, but the games on the console are often almost twice as much as their PC counterparts, and do not get discounted as quickly/heavily. As a result PC vs console costs are actually not that much different. PC costs more upfront, while Sony and MS sell their consoles at a loss in order to make up the difference on game sales. Nintendo do make a profit on their consoles, but then again, the Wii (like the Gamecube before it) is lower spec'd than the other consoles of the generation.
r.
XanderF
03-19-07, 04:27 PM
Awesome, and Ubi doesn't let you cancel pre-orders.
Ah, well, look for a copy of Sh4 for sale in the forums for cheap whenever it arrives. I have better things to do than play a game that will look like crap on my LCD - the whole '1280 by 1024' resolution things makes FSAA basically a REQUIREMENT. Radeon X1K card, so it's not an issue on any other game I play - '1946' (interestingly, another UbiSoft title released last week), 'Oblivion', etc. Heck, it can even be forced in Sh3 when you don't use the silly-looking bloom.
If it's not in Sh4 at all, then, well...I've got better things to do.
DragonRR1
03-19-07, 04:45 PM
My first post which is a shame because it's rather a negative one :(
I've run the game on two computers one with an NVIDIA 8800GTX and one with an ATI 800XT, both have the same issue:
No matter how high I set the resolution the 3D always runs at a lower resolution than it should. I would guess that the 3D is upscaling from 1024x768 to 1920x1200...
The link below should say it all... note the gauges at high res alongside the low res jaggy 3D!!
I've cropped the image below to highlight the point.
[img=http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/5789/resolution2sh7.th.gif] (http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=resolution2sh7.gif)
This is the full image (size warning)
[img=http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/8321/resolutionfullnn6.th.gif] (http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=resolutionfullnn6.gif)
I've tried turning off post processing which made no difference. I've checked the resolution cfg files and everything is set to 1920x1200. My monitor of course reports 1920x1200 too.
I hope there will be a fix for this but I can't help remembering the devs saying that with SH3 the lack of resolution control wasn't a bug. This is, of course, a slightly different problem......
JasonSK
03-19-07, 04:50 PM
That is exactly what it does for me also, REALLY wierd
XanderF
03-19-07, 04:50 PM
Actually, this is great! Turns out UbiSoft at least allows you to return the game if it's unopened! Linkage (http://storesupport.ubi.com/return.php).
Back to the barn this one goes until it's done baking!
(Oh, and - seems confirmed, no FSAA in the game (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/3331045245/p/2). Can't even be forced in control panel. Go Ubi!)
tedhealy
03-19-07, 04:50 PM
Lol. Instead of actually supporting higher res, they just fake it :damn:
Sulikate
03-19-07, 04:56 PM
Yes, the devs did say that SHIV would support resolutions higher 1024x768, what doesn't mean that they couldn't simple make everything "strech" to the desired resolution (what isn't good:shifty:).
Anyway, I'm fed up of jagged edges all over the screenshots that show up all the time: If this is a IMPROVED engine, why can we use (force) FSAA in SHIII and not in SHIV?!?
ps: I don't want to start another discussion on the FSAA topic, but the situation presented here is another example of the things the devs should have done and the modders will have to do.:shifty:
Sulikate
03-19-07, 04:57 PM
Lol. Instead of actually supporting higher res, they just fake it :damn:
Yeah, that's what I mean:yep:
geetrue
03-19-07, 05:01 PM
Hey, Dragon that link brings up a porno pop up ... be more carefull
who you use.
All of the other screen shots I've seen didn't have jaggies that bad, but I know your just reporting what you see :o
nhall70
03-19-07, 05:11 PM
Lol. Instead of actually supporting higher res, they just fake it :damn:
You can't be serious? Not even Ubisoft would do something this misleading...at least I don't think they would.
Has anyone else seen this?
Lol. Instead of actually supporting higher res, they just fake it :damn:
You can't be serious? Not even Ubisoft would do something this misleading...at least I don't think they would.
Has anyone else seen this?
Yep, that's exactly how they did it. Same for me. The GUI goes highres but the models ingame looks like 1024x768.
Sulikate
03-19-07, 05:23 PM
Lol. Instead of actually supporting higher res, they just fake it :damn:
You can't be serious? Not even Ubisoft would do something this misleading...at least I don't think they would.
Has anyone else seen this?
Yep, that's exactly how they did it. Same for me. The GUI goes highres but the models ingame looks like 1024x768. I agree. I'm not completely sure about this, but if that's true, UBI has made (another) big mistake:nope:
Ouch, tempted to cancel my pre-order, dunno though, depends what other nasty surprises pop up in the next few days...
they seem to be stuck in the past...
There is a program that enables high res in SH3 I guess someone will have ago at fixing SH4 resolution. Should be possible, but we shouldn't have to mod things like this on the latest games releases...
Immacolata
03-19-07, 05:29 PM
That's the drop. Im cancelling my preorder :down:
Will pick it up once it hits the bargain bins.
nhall70
03-19-07, 05:35 PM
Lol. Instead of actually supporting higher res, they just fake it :damn:
You can't be serious? Not even Ubisoft would do something this misleading...at least I don't think they would.
Has anyone else seen this?
Yep, that's exactly how they did it. Same for me. The GUI goes highres but the models ingame looks like 1024x768. I agree. I'm not completely sure about this, but if that's true, UBI has made (another) big mistake:nope:
There must be something wrong here...there must. If this is true, it goes way beyond "a mistake". This would be downright dishonest and they full well know it. They'd be the laughing stock of the sim community for a long time to come.
There has to be something that's being overlooked.
Wow, that looks just...horrible.
:nope:
AVGWarhawk
03-19-07, 05:39 PM
Would AA enabled on the card handle this issue of jaggies? I do not believe AA is available as yet. Perhaps a patch to handle this issue?
flintlock
03-19-07, 05:41 PM
Please, you're not suggesting it's simply scaling a fixed low res of 1024x768 to higher resolutions, are you?
I hope this isn't true. *gulp* :dead:
ReallyDedPoet
03-19-07, 05:43 PM
Those are some nasty pics there:nope:
trenken
03-19-07, 05:44 PM
I havent seen anti-aliasing that horrendous in a game in over 10 years.
Dont tell me thats true. I was looking ahead in playing it 1920x1600. This looks ugly!!! :nope: :nope: :nope:
It really looks like crap. I would swap the post process for AA any day.
Captain_Jack
03-19-07, 05:48 PM
If true that means they lied about two things now:
1. Using Imperial Measurements (just love seeing US Subs dive to 20 METERS!!!):down:
2. Screen Resolutions.....(jagged edges like 1980s Atari Games):down:
But we may be jumping to conclusions........maybe a patch is in the works...
I for one do not plan to rush out and buy this game yet. Thankfully I did not pre-order it!
ReallyDedPoet
03-19-07, 05:48 PM
My first post
Welcome by the way:up:, even if it is under these crappy circumstances.
nhall70
03-19-07, 05:49 PM
I simply can't believe that not a single previewer up to now would make any mention of this whatsoever. Could someone who has the game please prove this incorrect?
waste gate
03-19-07, 05:50 PM
Has anyone other than DragonRR1 seen this kind of issue?
gronbek
03-19-07, 05:50 PM
I can confirm this also.
The 3d game is fixed at max 1024X768.
Buying SH4 must be my worst gaming experience ever. Bye bye SH4
Lanzfeld
03-19-07, 05:50 PM
LOL!
I am so glad I am not going to bother with this junk.
flintlock
03-19-07, 05:50 PM
It really looks like crap. I would swap the post process for AA any day.
If Ubi are scaling a low resolution like 1024x768 to higher contemporary resolutions, no amount of AA or other graphics tricks will make that mess look better.
AVGWarhawk
03-19-07, 05:52 PM
look here.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=106588
flintlock
03-19-07, 05:52 PM
I can confirm this also.
The 3d game is fixed at max 1024X768.
Buying SH4 must be my worst gaming experience ever. Bye bye SH4 If that's true, about the 1024x768 I mean, I honestly can't say that I blame you.
The only people this wouldn't concern, are those that still run at 1024x768 resolutions. That said, I simply can't believe this to be true. There must be something else going on here, it's unbelievable otherwise. :o
RickC Sniper
03-19-07, 05:55 PM
Dragon are you using a widescreen? If so, and the game is upconverting from 1024x768 then wouldn't it have a stretched out look to it?
I have to admit those are the worst jaggies I've seen. Odd, since a lot of screenies look pretty darn good.
Is anyone here running the game in widescreen?
cherbert
03-19-07, 05:55 PM
I'm sorry to say that I think he is right. But I do hope its a bug and not and absolute cruddy way of claiming to support widescreen modes which is clearly deception on their part.
I am playing at 1920 x 1200 - until this thread started I assumed it was simply the AA issue - but now I look at it again its all becoming clear! The interface is clearly running at 1920 x1200 but the actual 3D world is 1024 x 768 or some other such crappy resolution which is clearly why so many people are experiencing jaggies.
I believe if the game were running at these high resolutions correctly we wouldn't notice the lack of AA as much as everyone seems to be.
Please... Please... I hope this is a bug :-(
Not implementing FSAA support because of the problems with HDR I can somehow understand. But fixing the 3D-resolution so that we can't get rid of the jaggies even at higher resolutions just seems insane.
Together with the already mentioned bugs I'm slowly beginning to get a bad feeling.
:doh:
flintlock
03-19-07, 05:59 PM
The interface is clearly running at 1920 x1200 but the actual 3D world is 1024 x 768 or some other such crappy resolution which is clearly why so many people are experiencing jaggies. If the UI is running at the higher resolution but the world isn't, I really hope this is simply a bug, and not working as intended. Surely Ubi wouldn't intentionally design it to work this way -- would they? :shifty:
gronbek
03-19-07, 06:00 PM
Images in 1024x768 and 1600x1200. No difference.:down:
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t127/gronbek/1024x768.jpg
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t127/gronbek/1600x1200.jpg
nhall70
03-19-07, 06:00 PM
I can confirm this also.
The 3d game is fixed at max 1024X768.
Buying SH4 must be my worst gaming experience ever. Bye bye SH4 If that's true, about the 1024x768 I mean, I honestly can't blame you. That said, I simply can't believe this to be true. There must be something else going on here, it's unbelievable otherwise. :o
Yea, I can't believe this either. There must be some kind of an explanation. I was expecting the FSAA issue to come up because it's Ubisoft.
I was NOT expecting this.
Either something is wrong, or Ubisoft has just called all of us fools...chumps.
cherbert
03-19-07, 06:00 PM
If its of interest to anyone I have also noticed that the main.cfg file in the cfg folder still contains a reference to 1024 x 768!!!
Is this referring to he 3D world or just left over from the SHIII engine?
yes this is true. Resolution of 3dengine is still fixed1024x768. All other 2d graphics things is simply smaller on greater resolution. :down: And with no antialiasing :damn: I've tried chuck patch for oblivion aa+HDR for ati x1000 series but with last drivers 7.2 it did't work
I dont mind a few minor bugs but I am getting more and more disappointed about SH4. Are these the glorious hollywood effects (all fake)? Its no wonder it runs fast on medium rigs if its still 1024x768... :down:
I will stay with my PreOrder, try it myself but give it some shelf time. I hate low-res jaggies! :damn:
Well, this is no-go for me. Have seen screenshots here and elsewhere, and SH4 looks awful. Its washed out and strange looking, bland colours and terrible jaggies. (Kinda like GRAW (another UBI no AA-debacle) The mad part is that SH3 with GWX looks MUCH better, and they did that for free on their free time. Sure, nice with transparant water and all, but it still looks wierd. Oh, and the pre-release screenshots are a hoax.
I have also read about mad stuttering with high end systems, even with high fps.
Preorder cancelled by stabiz.
Arrowhead2k1
03-19-07, 06:05 PM
:huh:
I'm speechless... :down:
AVGWarhawk
03-19-07, 06:06 PM
Well, this is no-go for me. Have seen screenshots here and elsewhere, and SH4 looks awful. Its washed out and strange looking, bland colours and terrible jaggies. (Kinda like GRAW (another UBI no AA-debacle)
I have also read about mad stuttering with high end systems, even with high fps.
Preorder cancelled by stabiz.
I agree Stabiz. It looks gloomy. I posted that about a week ago. All the screehshots looked dark and foreboding to me. Others said no, this was a hollywood effect type deal. I guess it is not.
Charlie901
03-19-07, 06:07 PM
I can confirm this also.
The 3d game is fixed at max 1024X768.
Buying SH4 must be my worst gaming experience ever. Bye bye SH4 If that's true, about the 1024x768 I mean, I honestly can't say that I blame you.
The only people this wouldn't concern, are those that still run at 1024x768 resolutions. That said, I simply can't believe this to be true. There must be something else going on here, it's unbelievable otherwise. :o
OH THANK GOD!
I can only run at max 1024x 768 due to my aged system and only a 7600 series vid card.
1024x768 HERE I COME!!! :up:
cherbert
03-19-07, 06:09 PM
Well, this is no-go for me. Have seen screenshots here and elsewhere, and SH4 looks awful. Its washed out and strange looking, bland colours and terrible jaggies. (Kinda like GRAW (another UBI no AA-debacle)
I have also read about mad stuttering with high end systems, even with high fps.
Preorder cancelled by stabiz.
I agree Stabiz. It looks gloomy. I posted that about a week ago. All the screehshots looked dark and foreboding to me. Others said no, this was a hollywood effect type deal. I guess it is not.
That is the hollywood effect!! And it CAN be switched off. The graphics/colors look fine - don't worry!
What you do need to worry about is that its all presented in 1024 x 768. If you have a large widescreen LCD be prepared to think you are back playing Aces of the Deep.
ReallyDedPoet
03-19-07, 06:10 PM
The Silent Hunter Series meets Dracula, that last screen was just plain scary:o
Capt.LoneRanger
03-19-07, 06:11 PM
I am still amazed that people think the missing ability of pre 8xxx-nvidias is a Ubi-Bug :D
It is a purely nVidia-bug, because the video-cards cannot render Post-Processing and FSAA in the same time. Honestly, even 8xxx use a work-around. That is not limited to Ubi or something. It's the same with HL2, BF2142 and any other game, that uses HDR-Effects and runs with pre 8xxx nVidias. If you want to get rid of it, stop complaining about a software-bug in the game and get a next generation nVidia. Or even better: If you pay attention to texture and screen quality, drop your fanboyism and get an ATi-card.:stare:
cherbert
03-19-07, 06:12 PM
I am still amazed that people think the missing ability of pre 8xxx-nvidias is a Ubi-Bug :D
It is a purely nVidia-bug, because the video-cards cannot render Post-Processing and FSAA in the same time. Honestly, even 8xxx use a work-around. That is not limited to Ubi or something. It's the same with HL2, BF2142 and any other game, that uses HDR-Effects and runs with pre 8xxx nVidias. If you want to get rid of it, stop complaining about a software-bug in the game and get a next generation nVidia. Or even better: If you pay attention to texture and screen quality, drop your fanboyism and get an ATi-card.:stare:
Erm, we aren't talking about AA. This thread is about the resolution. :doh:
another thing is (at least for me) postproces underwater effects has very low color quality. It seems like 16bit maybe worse. (x1900xtx)
AVGWarhawk
03-19-07, 06:14 PM
Well, this is no-go for me. Have seen screenshots here and elsewhere, and SH4 looks awful. Its washed out and strange looking, bland colours and terrible jaggies. (Kinda like GRAW (another UBI no AA-debacle)
I have also read about mad stuttering with high end systems, even with high fps.
Preorder cancelled by stabiz.
I agree Stabiz. It looks gloomy. I posted that about a week ago. All the screehshots looked dark and foreboding to me. Others said no, this was a hollywood effect type deal. I guess it is not.
That is the hollywood effect!! And it CAN be switched off. The graphics/colors look fine - don't worry!
What you do need to worry about is that its all presented in 1024 x 768. If you have a large widescreen LCD be prepared to think you are back playing Aces of the Deep.
I do not need to worry about 1024x768 because this is the resolution I play my games in. I'm good:smug:
upscaling 1024x768 has nothing to do with FSAA! Its crap! :down:
DJSatane
03-19-07, 06:18 PM
Everyone is aware that you have to restart the game for resolution change to take effect right?
I am gonna try to do some 1024x vs 1280x comparisons when I get the chance.
I am still amazed that people think the missing ability of pre 8xxx-nvidias is a Ubi-Bug :D
It is a purely nVidia-bug, because the video-cards cannot render Post-Processing and FSAA in the same time. Honestly, even 8xxx use a work-around. That is not limited to Ubi or something. It's the same with HL2, BF2142 and any other game, that uses HDR-Effects and runs with pre 8xxx nVidias. If you want to get rid of it, stop complaining about a software-bug in the game and get a next generation nVidia. Or even better: If you pay attention to texture and screen quality, drop your fanboyism and get an ATi-card.:stare:
I would easily call it an UBI-bug. Name new non-UBI games with NO AA OPTIONS!
The General
03-19-07, 06:21 PM
Everyone is aware that you have to restart the game for resolution change to take effect right?OMG I'd laugh if that all this fuss was! There'd be alot of embarassed people here :oops: .
Everyone is aware that you have to restart the game for resolution change to take effect right?
I am gonna try to do some 1024x vs 1280x comparisons when I get the chance.
i'v tried it 1600x1200 and still same big pixels
gronbek
03-19-07, 06:23 PM
Everyone is aware that you have to restart the game for resolution change to take effect right?
I am gonna try to do some 1024x vs 1280x comparisons when I get the chance.
Yeah, I am aware.
BR Anders
nhall70
03-19-07, 06:25 PM
The issue here is not whether or not a person needs 1024x768. That's a matter of personal preference and opinion.
The problem is that if they truely are up-scaling a low-res image, this will be the biggest lie I've ever seen any publisher make...period!
Anyone with any self-respect at all should feel something when they are treated like a fool.
Were they expecting noone to notice? :nope:
E.Hartmann
03-19-07, 06:30 PM
Hey, Dragon that link brings up a porno pop up ... be more carefull
who you use.
All of the other screen shots I've seen didn't have jaggies that bad, but I know your just reporting what you see :o
it pops up what ever traci9ing cookies you have on your CPU. So I think you need to stay off the porn sites! :rotfl:
My pop up was cooking utensils.
The General
03-19-07, 06:31 PM
How much more work would be involved for the Devs to generate the of higer resolution 3D you speak of?
it pops up what ever traci9ing cookies you have on your CPU. So I think you need to stay off the porn sites! :rotfl:
:rotfl:
Hey, Dragon that link brings up a porno pop up ... be more carefull
who you use.
All of the other screen shots I've seen didn't have jaggies that bad, but I know your just reporting what you see :o
it pops up what ever traci9ing cookies you have on your CPU. So I think you need to stay off the porn sites! :rotfl:
My pop up was cooking utensils.
LOL:lol: :up:
AVGWarhawk
03-19-07, 06:32 PM
Taking another look at the pictures, it looks like the foreground is in the correct resolution(dials and such) the back picture is definitly something else.
OneTinSoldier
03-19-07, 06:32 PM
The native Resolution of my Samsung 214t 22 inch LCD monitor is 1600x1200. Even at that resolution I like using 2x or 4x AA for most games. I was concerned about the lack of FSAA support for SH4 but I was excited about getting to be the Skipper of a U.S. Sub, especially since I'm an American citizen. So... I broke down an pre-ordered it from Amazon.com. I was thinking that since there is no FSAA support that at least getting to run it at 1600x1200 would help.
Now I see this... that the higher resolution support is just faked. :mad:
Pre-order canceled. :nope:
I do want to say Thank You for letting us know about this issue and bringing it to our attention DragonRR1. People need to know about this so they will know what they are actually getting prior to spending their money. Ubi AND the Devs should be ashamed of themselves for this IMO. What a rip-off!
Regards
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.