How can we not rewrite history?

[simsurfer]

Ive been thinking about this for a bit, how in SHIV can we not rewrite history if the ships we sink do not respawn? Take for example the Japanese Battleship Yamoto. If for example we manage to find her and sink her prior to 1944 how would she have participated in the battle of Leyte Gulf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leyte_Gulf) and Samar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Samar_Gulf), during which she first fired her main guns in anger.

This is just one ship though, how about aircraft carriers or other types of warship.

Has this ever been explained, or do these types of ships spawn only when they were in actual battle on specified dates as history dictates?

[Torplexed]

The thing is who's gonna come up with the complicated formulae to determine the outcome of Phillipine Sea or Leyte Gulf or any future Japanese naval operations without the Yamato? Or the Coral Sea battle if you get lucky and sink the Shokaku early on? Would there even be a Coral Sea battle at that point? Sincerely, I doubt if the developers have put anymore thought into it other than these events proceed without that particular ship. Without some sort of vast Pacific War sub-program running the whole conflict in the background and your input on it I don't see how it could be simulated.

[CCIP]

Well I'd simply qualify that SHIII/IV engine has always had a tactical AI but no strategic one. Without a strategic one I don't think there's any sense in attempting to simulate historical alterations; and a strategic AI would have to essentially be a wargame running under a simulation. Last time a game did that was Falcon 4.0, which was released nearly 9 years ago; it was an ambitious and difficult project that came with bugs which took years to fix. I don't have much faith that a sequel on an "accellerated development schedule" could even begin to attempt something like that.

[Crosseye76]

It does bring up in interesting point though. Since in SHIV we can see battles if we are in the right place and time (I think anyway) what will we see if ships don't respawn ?

If we manage to sink the Akagi and Kaga on our first foray into Empire waters, and later on we manage to sink Hiryu and Soryu (Because with 1942 vintage MK-14's that's SO likely to happen.......... :up: ), who would show up at Midway. What would we see there in June of 1942? It will be interesting to find out.

[Torplexed]

Another complication would be that such a program to be realistic would have to be tracking what the other sixty odd US submarines on patrol are doing, plus all the Allied carrier fleets, bomber groups, etc. It would also have to decide which targets disappear because of accidents and fate. (The Japanese battleship Mutsu blew up at anchor in 1943 due to an internal explosion.)

[Subnuts]

Remember that Pacific War strategy game that came out back in the early 90s? The game's scale was huge, but installed it only took up a few megabytes. It would be interesting if SHIV incorporated a strategic AI like that game, with major naval battles taking place and subs attacking convoys "over the horizon." That way we wouldn't be fighting the same war over and over again. Unfortunately, I don't think that'll be happening.

[Torplexed]

Remember that Pacific War strategy game that came out back in the early 90s? The game's scale was huge, but installed it only took up a few megabytes. It would be interesting if SHIV incorporated a strategic AI like that game, with major naval battles taking place and subs attacking convoys "over the horizon." That way we wouldn't be fighting the same war over and over again. Unfortunately, I don't think that'll be happening.
Gary Grisby came up with a sequel to that game in 2004 called War in the Pacific. It has every ship down to the PT boat level. Plus every fighter group, bomber group, division and brigade. A great game but the AI is overwhelmed in playing it. Even between two human players the one day turns means the game takes months to play. It would probably require a program of this complexity running behind the scenes to account for your impact and everyone's elses on the war. A link to the game if any are interested....

http://www.matrixgames.com/games/game.asp?gid=294

[GSpector]

As a possibility, maybe ships like the Yamato will not be seen at anytime prior to the battles that made them famous so that you could not change history before history is to be made.

Or they could just make the ships unsinkable until the times come when they are no longer critical to the Sim.

Just my 2¢

[Torplexed]

Or they could just make the ships unsinkable until the times come when they are no longer critical to the Sim.

Just my 2¢
I can hear the screaming already if someone cuts loose an accurate torpedo salvo at the Akagi and the torpedoes explode harmlessly and she sails blissfully on because the battle of Midway she is due to sink at is still three months away.

Of course, premature detonations were routine early in the war, so maybe it would be realistic. :up:

[GSpector]

Or maybe worse, you can damage the ships but the best you can do is force it to limp home to be repaired in time for the historical battle.

Fire Tube 1
.... :o
Fire Tube 2
..?? :hmm:
Fire Tube 3
???? :shifty:
Fire Tube 4
!!!! :stare:

Sir, we are out of Torps.
:damn:

[Torplexed]

The ironic thing is one of the most devasting losses the Japanese suffered from US submarines wasn't a battleship or an aircraft carrier. It was the lowly 14,500 tontransport Taiyo Maru sunk on May 8th 1942 by the submarine Grenadier. Post-war examination of Japanese records showed Taiyo Maru to be more than just the ordinary transport; she was en route to the Netherland East Indies with a group of Japanese scientists, economists, oilmen and industrial experts bent on expediting the exploitation of the conquered territory. Their loss put a permanent crimp in Japan's efforts to extract oil from this area from which Japan never fully recovered.

[IRONxMortlock]

I remember in the flightsim Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe the course of the war would change depending on how successful players were in game.

I think this would work perfectly in a sub sim and it wouldn't be too difficult to incorporate into the game.
________
WASHINGTON MEDICAL MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES (http://washington.dispensaries.org/)

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

Remember that Pacific War strategy game that came out back in the early 90s? The game's scale was huge, but installed it only took up a few megabytes. It would be interesting if SHIV incorporated a strategic AI like that game, with major naval battles taking place and subs attacking convoys "over the horizon." That way we wouldn't be fighting the same war over and over again. Unfortunately, I don't think that'll be happening.

God I remember that. I'm amazed anyone else does.

[Torplexed]

Well...I guess the simpliest forumlae is this.

Japan is involved in a total war with a nation with ten times her industrial capacity and the ability at some point to make atomic bombs, and this nation is only one of her many opponents. So, at some point after some test in the New Mexico desert in 1945, she's gonna lose.

The end. :p

[THE_MASK]

As a possibility, maybe ships like the Yamato will not be seen at anytime prior to the battles that made them famous so that you could not change history before history is to be made.

This seems the most plausable.

[hyperion2206]

As a possibility, maybe ships like the Yamato will not be seen at anytime prior to the battles that made them famous so that you could not change history before history is to be made.
This seems the most plausable.

Come on, most of Japans warships played vital rolls in the battles. Making them disappear untill they are needed for a battle would only leave us merchant ships and that would truly suck!

[Boris]

It would, suck... but apparently the devs have implemented it, and it's a good feature.

What if ships sunk were replaced by the next viable warship? Not like the Japanese would face the same historic battle missing a BB they lost months ago.

Thinking of the SH3 campaign system, and the editor, I don't see how this might be possible though.

[Morts]

Or maybe worse, you can damage the ships but the best you can do is force it to limp home to be repaired in time for the historical battle.

Fire Tube 1
.... :o
Fire Tube 2
..?? :hmm:
Fire Tube 3
???? :shifty:
Fire Tube 4
!!!! :stare:

Sir, we are out of Torps.


haha more like

Fire Tube 1:) ......torpedo hit
Fire Tube 2:) ........torpedo hit
Fire Tube 3:-? ..........torpedo hit
Fire Tube 4:shifty: ............torpedo hit
Fire Tube 5:x ..............torpedo hit
Fire Tube 6:nope: .........:stare: ....torpedo hit

captain: WHAAAT THE HELL WHY WONT THIS SHIP GO DOWN FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.......AAAAAARRGGHHH......DIIIIE


pilot: battle ship <name> is going down, only hit her with 1 bomb

captain: WHAT?....:stare:



hahahaha god im bored

[Safe-Keeper]

Falcon 4.0 let you "change history" and had only a limited number of units for each side. For example, your squadron had only so many fighters, that army division only had so many units, and so on. And everything you did had an effect on economy, movement, command, logistics, and so on.

For example, if a factory is destroyed, then depending on the enemy's command structure and resources it might or might not be repaired, and while it's down, the enemy loses a source of resources. Blow up a bridge, and the enemy army is halted. And so on.

On one hand, I'd love it if the Silent Hunter games were like this. On the other hand, though, I understand why they are not. For one thing, they depict a war that's already happened, and which needs to happen a certain way to be historically correct. Of course they could script the battles in like "when the date of the Battle of Midway draws near, gather a group of carriers and other warships and attack Midway Atoll", but I don't know how well it'd work, to be honest.

captain: WHAAAT THE HELL WHY WONT THIS SHIP GO DOWN FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.......AAAAAARRGGHHH......DIIIIEThe lovely memories of the immortal C2 freighter:rotfl:!

[Barkhorn1x]

My gut tells me the devs. will keep it simple and it has been mentioned - semi-officially - that we will not see a sunk ship respawn later in the campaign. But...there are no other US subs modeled except the players and I doubt that the devs. had time to add even a very basic strat. level AI.

So...you will run accross capital ships in a TF - and IF you sink them - them, they will not reappear later. If you don't, they will.

How this will be accomplished (if I am even close to being correct here) is anybodies guess.

Barkhorn.

[Schunken]

Maybe is like this...

They are one "normal" Yamato and one scripted one:



Tis mean:

If you sink the Yamato before her first historical battle she will only come back for the scripted historical battles, but never again in a "normal" patrol...

When the Yamato sink in the scripted battles shes out of the game, after this you will not meet her in normal patrols...

This seems to me a relative easy rule for put into the engine of SH4....


Another posibility is you will only meet the Yamato in this historical battles....

Andreas

[Barkhorn1x]

Another posibility is you will only meet the Yamato in this historical battles....

Andreas

Let's hope that is not the case as - historically - there was a lot of IJN TF "to'ng and fro'ing" - and US subs were able to pick off several IJN capital ships w/ some advance notice as to route and sailing times from ULTRA intercepts.

This sort of thing has got to be in the game.

Barkhorn.

[Safe-Keeper]

The developers have stated that if you sink a ship, she's gone from the campaign. Not that you could single-handedly sink the Yamato anyhow.

[Barkhorn1x]

On a related note - we have heard that you cannot add ships to SHIV***

If true this would REALLY suck! You aleady have a game that was given a limited development timeline and we know it is missing some key ships. What a blow it would be to all of us if the modders cannot fill in the blanks. :nope:



***To me this a wait and see issue as that is what they said about SHIII and well - that turned out to be inaccurate.

Barkhorn.

[Barkhorn1x]

Oh...and I had to post again to get rid of the fat trannie in the "Wild Night in Bankok" avatar.

Barkhorn.

[hyperion2206]

On a related note - we have heard that you cannot add ships to SHIV***

If true this would REALLY suck! You aleady have a game that was given a limited development timeline and we know it is missing some key ships. What a blow it would be to all of us if the modders cannot fill in the blanks. :nope:



***To me this a wait and see issue as that is what they said about SHIII and well - that turned out to be inaccurate.

Barkhorn.

Which "key ships" didn't make it into the game? Never heard anything about that.:o

[Barkhorn1x]

Which "key ships" didn't make it into the game? Never heard anything about that.:o

Based on the Confirmed Ships thread - these "key" ships are missing:

BB's = Nagato class; Ise class
CA's = Tone class; Myoko class; Furutaka class
CV's = Akagi, Kaga Soryu class; Taiho, Shinano; Unyru class
CVL's = any of them

Now, the use of the word "key" is my opinion. And, perhaps we have just not seen all of the capital ships in the sim. Or, perhaps we have seen most of them.

I hope I am wrong but do not think that I am.

Barkhorn.

[Tigrone]

All the game can do is simulate similar circumstances. It cannot recreate historical events. It would get pretty boring if we could predict the future (a scripted rather than dynamic campaign) and nothing unexpected occured. It really is no better or worse than a movie based on events, like:

Destination Tokyo (1943)
TCM: Monday, February 26 8:45 AM PDT
1943, NR, ***, 02:15, B & W, English, United States,
A submarine captain (Cary Grant) handles Tokyo Bay, depth charges, a lodged bomb and a crewman's rush appendectomy.
Cast: Cary Grant, John Garfield, Alan Hale, John Ridgely, Dane Clark, Warner Anderson, William Prince Director(s): Delmer Daves

Not a bad movie at all, but it's just a movie, and what we got here is an interactive movie in which we get to star. Very Cool, Oscars anyone?

[hyperion2206]

Which "key ships" didn't make it into the game? Never heard anything about that.:o
Based on the Confirmed Ships thread - these "key" ships are missing:

BB's = Nagato class; Ise class
CA's = Tone class; Myoko class; Furutaka class
CV's = Akagi, Kaga Soryu class; Taiho, Shinano; Unyru class
CVL's = any of them

Now, the use of the word "key" is my opinion. And, perhaps we have just not seen all of the capital ships in the sim. Or, perhaps we have seen most of them.

I hope I am wrong but do not think that I am.

Barkhorn.

If all these ships would be missing I would be pretty upset and I think you're right: These are key ships!

[Barkhorn1x]

I REALLY do hope I am wrong. And, hey, I just spotted a new US a/c so who knows for sure what is in store?

Barkhorn.

[hyperion2206]

I REALLY do hope I am wrong. And, hey, I just spotted a new US a/c so who knows for sure what is in store?

Barkhorn.

You guys in the US will know it 1 week earlier.;)

[Aimbot]

Well...I guess the simpliest forumlae is this.

Japan is involved in a total war with a nation with ten times her industrial capacity and the ability at some point to make atomic bombs, and this nation is only one of her many opponents. So, at some point after some test in the New Mexico desert in 1945, she's gonna lose.

The end. :p Agreed. The only prayer the Japanese had was that the Americans would cow to them.

I hope I can spot the Yorktown in the sim. It's docked within walking distance of my apartment. :p

[Torplexed]

Your Yorktown must be Yorktown II. The original was sunk at Midway. I think the US Navy got a sense of perverse glee naming new Essex class carriers after carriers that had already been sunk. Probably drove Japanese naval intelligence batty. :lol:

Another way to approach this problem would be to make contacts with major Japanese warships before 1944 extremely rare. Historically they were. US submarines only accounted for sinking one major Japanese warship before 1944. That was the heavy cruiser Kako sunk after the battle of Savo Island in 1942 by the S-44. By 1944, Japan's inevitable defeat was pretty much a done deal. Sink all you want...they're gonna lose anyway.

[Sailor Steve]

Actually, his Yorktown would be Yorktown IV:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/10m.htm
Pic # 12

All of the early carriers were either named for famous American Battles (Lexington, Saratoga, Midway) or famous early American ships (Essex, Kearsarge, Enterprise).

Well, except the first one, Langley. She was named for the early aviation pioneer and first curator of the Smithsonian Institution, Samuel Pierpont Langley.