War on the Middle Class

[elite_hunter_sh3]

anyone noticed the exponentially growing problem of middle class jobs falling and going to illegal alien mexicans who work for 2-3 $ an hr and most jobs goin to asian markets?? while us north americans barely make enough money to survive!:nope::nope:

[fatty]

But in another thread you posted:

i support venezuela , cuba and north korea(a little bit i dont like their nuke policy) i support socialism because capitalism is pathetic IMHO

So which is it?

Also, aren't you from Canada?

[geetrue]

But in another thread you posted:

i support venezuela , cuba and north korea(a little bit i dont like their nuke policy) i support socialism because capitalism is pathetic IMHO

So which is it?

Also, aren't you from Canada?

That's still considered North America, just like Mexico is also considered to be located in North American ... stops somewhere around Panama.

[fatty]

No, really? ;)

The point is, we tend not to see very many illegal Mexican aliens around these parts :D

[loynokid]

Ok, so now that we have established that there is a problem with illegal immigrants, what are we going to do about it. One option is to just kick 'em out. Another is to Legalize them. Another is kind of a hybird of the two, kick out the easy to find ones, and build a big fence and get more border gaurds to keep any more from getting in.

Any Thoughts? Any other Ideas?

[Tchocky]

edit - Vanished....

[elite_hunter_sh3]

so ur saying socialism is 1.3b people stealing north american middle class jobs and increasing unemployment??? errm thats completely the opposite of socialism infact that is capitalism (they went to asia cuz it was cheaper:nope:) i live in canada and my dad is a middle class worker, heres a mini story

he works on CNC lathe machines, he is stage 1 of the many stage that landing gear parts undertake to be made . he machines the (for ex hydralic cylinder for brakes) from raw steel or stainless steel, and he then sends it to other companies hes connected to and they do other stages(chromium plating, etc...) now after all the stages the part for ex cud be worth a good few thousand dollars, BUT in early stages its worth a measily 40$, now my dad gets orders of 300-400 of these every month, he says 7 years ago he used to make 8000-9000$ a month , now he can barely make 4-5000$ and my mom was forced to take a job at the HBC company, she gets around 2000$ a month, hell even ive started working , my parents dont want me to use my money to pay bills, but sometimes secretly i go to bank and ask teller to clear this loan bla blaa blaa clear that loan etc.. to help my parents out, now please explain if this middle class problem hasnt affected you in any sort of way im pretty sure theres at least a few people here affected by this issue,

all those parts are going to china which is b.s

and for the record about n.korea etc.. ( i was mentally brainwashed by fanaticals :shifty:) so cross those comments out , werent really my opinon.:up:

[elite_hunter_sh3]

all im asking here is anyone here has been affected by this growing problem and voice ur thought concerns and opinions on the china economy issue.

[fatty]

No, I'm saying that these supposedly socialist countries that you support have a negligible middle-class. Everyone there is either very, very poor or very, very rich.

Here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/11/wchavez11.xml) is an article about middle-class Venezuelans fleeing the country.

Another (http://www.voice-online.co.uk/content.php?show=10834) interesting article on Venezuela's middle-class.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

the problem is socialiasm has been branded "evil" because of incompetent idiots in poower who dont know what socialism is and jus use to say america sucks. chavez = idiot ,, why? because hes tainting the true meaning of socialism, read some trotsky and karl marx and then u will see the true and real meaning of socialism

[waste gate]

the problem is socialiasm has been branded "evil" because of incompetent idiots in poower who dont know what socialism is and jus use to say america sucks. chavez = idiot ,, why? because hes tainting the true meaning of socialism, read some trotsky and karl marx and then u will see the true and real meaning of socialism

What would you say is the true meaning of socialism?


Why is socialism so popular? The reasons are not complicated. First, socialism allows people to spend other people’s money. Let’s avoid the phrase “steal other people’s money,” because only libertarians see it that way.
Nevertheless, however socialists justify this spending, even they realize they are taking other people’s money. Yes, I know some socialists deny the very concept of private ownership. But even they realize that socialism takes money and property that is possessed by some and transfers possession to others so they can spend or use it.

Reason No. 1: Socialism allows people to spend other people’s money without feeling guilty about it.


Second, there is a related but distinct craving that animates socialism, as noted by many commentators. Envy is a strong emotion that has always had a powerful impact on society and politics. Envy is “a painful or resentful awareness of an advantage enjoyed by another joined with a desire to possess the same advantage” (Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary). Because no one admits to acting on the basis of envy, the term “equality” — robbed of its original and legitimate meaning in classical liberal thought — is used instead. Socialism is the perfect political expression of envious people because it purports to rein in greedy and wealthy capitalists and usher in social equality.

Reason No. 2: Socialism satisfies the deeply felt and widely held emotion of envy.


Third, free-market capitalism emphasizes the individual’s responsibility for his own economic welfare. Socialism professes to place this responsibility outside the individual and with the state. Many people are happy to be rid of this burden and glad to be able to blame others for their problems. Unlike Reasons No. 1 and No. 2, this reason for the popularity of socialism is one trumpeted by its proponents. They do not see the obvious downside of the structural reduction of individual economic responsibility: laziness, profligacy, and passivity.

Reason No. 3: Socialism purports to relieve people of the burden of worrying about their economic well-being.


Fourth, in a secular age, socialism acts as a religion-substitute. Traditionally, religion would offer solace to people facing the numerous traumas of life. Now, for millions of people, socialism plays that role. “For who would bear the whips and scorns of time, the oppressor’s wrong, the proud man’s contumely, the pangs of despised love, the law’s delay, the insolence of office and the spurns that patient merit of the unworthy takes, when he” could overcome all these problems with socialism?
Utopian socialism — all socialism is utopian — purports to offer a solution to virtually all human problems. In contrast, the claims of capitalism are seen as too modest, and hard work is required as well. There is no need to quote a Marxist on the all-encompassing promises of socialism. Lyndon Johnson will do fine. In a speech given on May 22, 1964, Johnson promised that his Great Society would “pursue the happiness of our people,” conquer “boredom and restlessness,” and satisfy the “desire for beauty” and the “hunger for community.” All this and beat the Viet Cong too. Amazing!

Reason No. 4: Socialism is a secular substitute for religion and offers people (false) solace against the traumas of this life.

I considered giving intellectuals their own special reason for worshipping the state, but I decided that to explain why 95 percent of intellectuals have a ferocious love for socialism you merely have to combine and intensify all four reasons already stated.
These are some of the main reasons that socialism, which is silly in theory and lethal in practice, remains so popular, even in a society such as ours, whose fabulous wealth is the result of the shrinking capitalist remnants of the economy.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

Marx believed that the identity of a social class derived from its relationship to the means of production (as opposed to the notion that class is determined by wealth alone, i.e., lower class, middle class, upper class).
Marx describes several social classes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class) in capitalist societies, including primarily:
the proletariat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletariat): "those individuals who sell their labour power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_power), (and therefore add value to the products), and who, in the capitalist mode of production, do not own the means of production". According to Marx, the capitalist mode of production establishes the conditions that enable the bourgeoisie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeoisie) to exploit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploitation#Marxian_theory) the proletariat due to the fact that the worker's labour power generates an added value (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surplus_value) greater than the worker's salary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary).
the bourgeoisie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeoisie): those who "own the means of production" and buy labour power from the proletariat, who are recompensed by a salary, thus exploiting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploitation#Marxian_theory) the proletariat.
thats all ive gotten so far, because ive spent 5 min on google and i have a huge edgar allen poe lecture i have to do tommorw (grd 12 english:damn:) so tommorw i will explain pure socialism and y its so hard to achieve tommorw, because iots way too long for me to do so i apologize for making a wait:damn::damn::dead:

[Tchocky]

waste_gate & elite, it's customary to provide links to material you're using.

[NefariousKoel]

the problem is socialiasm has been branded "evil" because of incompetent idiots in poower who dont know what socialism is and jus use to say america sucks. chavez = idiot ,, why? because hes tainting the true meaning of socialism, read some trotsky and karl marx and then u will see the true and real meaning of socialism


The problem is Socialism as a state entity has always become a dictatorship of some kind, and it's been proven many times over to be not only an economic failing, but a severe injustice to the rights of those it best championed.. the poor.

You can keep your aspirations of making a Socialist Paradise, but it's been proven repeatedly that it's not viable.

[Kapitan]

Its not just america this is the problem here too.

[STEED]

Its not just america this is the problem here too.

You raciest person.


Don't Panic Kap, that's the first remark from the PC loony brigade & the wet liberals.

[kurtz]

Its not just america this is the problem here too.
Except here they also come not just to take jobs but to sit on their loathsome behinds and scrounge the dole and get social housing so those that do have jobs are crippled by taxation. I mean why does no one ever query why the taxes go up continually and the services they pay for get worse?

[STEED]

Except here they also come not just to take jobs but to sit on their loathsome behinds and scrounge the dole and get social housing so those that do have jobs are crippled by taxation. I mean why does no one ever query why the taxes go up continually and the services they pay for get worse?

You can not put all the blame on immigration and that is a fact. When the Conservatives left office in 1997 this country was in the Black by a region of eight million pounds, now under Labour we are in the Red by that same some of money and don't forget that's your money not the Governments. Also this Government urged people to spend there money to avoid a depression and everyone did which resulted in one trillion in consumer debt and what thanks you got from the Chancellor Gordon Brown? More and more tax headed are way, charming and if Gordon Brown takes over as Prime Minister you can bet your savings he will be after you with more tax.

[kurtz]

[quote=STEED. Also this Government urged people to spend there money to avoid a depression and everyone did which resulted in one trillion in consumer debt and what thanks you got from the Chancellor Gordon Brown? More and more tax headed are way, charming and if Gordon Brown takes over as Prime Minister you can bet your savings he will be after you with more tax.[/quote]

And then putting the interest rates up ( I know it's 'independent' but I don't think they disobey Brown)

[elite_hunter_sh3]

OK. what im asking is if the middle clas problem has affected anyone here, ive been afected since my dad is in airline industry and most parts are heading to china cuz its cheaper there. so less money for us:nope::nope:, anyone else here either lose their jobs or make less money because of china/india / asian markets?

[AVGWarhawk]

There are a lot if injustices in the world but one must get up and keep going. As far as illegal aliens. Make them legal and get them on the tax payor rolls like the rest of the tax payers. Most do make minimal pay but still enjoy what the government provides. Instead of booting them out, make them a part. If the illegal refuses then it is time to deport. Just my personal thoughts.

[loynokid]

the problem is socialiasm has been branded "evil" because of incompetent idiots in poower who dont know what socialism is and jus use to say america sucks. chavez = idiot ,, why? because hes tainting the true meaning of socialism, read some trotsky and karl marx and then u will see the true and real meaning of socialism


I'm not sure if I buy this... :hmm:

[loynokid]

There are a lot if injustices in the world but one must get up and keep going. As far as illegal aliens. Make them legal and get them on the tax payor rolls like the rest of the tax payers. Most do make minimal pay but still enjoy what the government provides. Instead of booting them out, make them a part. If the illegal refuses then it is time to deport. Just my personal thoughts.


I like that, My personal onpinion is to kick all of 'em out, since they are all here illegally, but something tells me that is a bit impractical:yep: :hmm: :lol: , I like that idea a lot....:up:

[waste gate]

There are a lot if injustices in the world but one must get up and keep going. As far as illegal aliens. Make them legal and get them on the tax payor rolls like the rest of the tax payers. Most do make minimal pay but still enjoy what the government provides. Instead of booting them out, make them a part. If the illegal refuses then it is time to deport. Just my personal thoughts.

Illegal imigrants have and are breaking federal and in many cases state law as soon as they cross the border without permission. Regardless of their condition within their own countries as soon as the enter the US under those conditions they are criminal.

My question would be if you forgive law breakers in this case on what other laws are we willing to give people a pass? Child molestation, discrimination based on race, premeditated murder. What good is the rule of law if it doesn't apply to everyone equally? Once anyone crosses into the US tey are subject to US law and if one crosses into the US illegaly they are criminal (they broke US law) and are subject to deportation which is also US law.

Many would argue that the law is discriminatory, that is not the case because it does not point to any pparticular group as criminal. If as a citizen of the US, you disagree with the current law I would suggest you contact your elected representative and express your wishes.

[Letum]

The way I see it is:
We are all brothers. There is no reason why Joe America should have a job but Joe Mexico should be banned from having a job.
There should be a level playing field for everyone to live and work where they like.

I have lost a previous job to a Latvian worker before, but only because I wouldn't accept a pay drop.


My view is not just a socialist view. It is a capitalist view because it is good for the business to have broad range of job seekers.

[ASWnut101]

But they are still breaking the law!

I agree that there should be a (somewhat) level "playing field," but if they are immigrants, why won't they come legally? I have absolutaly no problem with legal immigrants. Infact, I welcome them. Why should "Joe Mexico" deserve a job for being a criminal?

[CCIP]

waste_gate & elite, it's customary to provide links to material you're using.
A bump for this.

I frankly didn't see a remotely accurate representation of socialism from either of you. I'm a socialist myself and frankly both of your views I find ridiculously grounded in ideological rhetoric which I doubt you've entirely examined.

Then again I'm not a mainstream enough socialist to entirely ally myself with either side (I call my position pragmatic socialist - I was not indoctrinated into socialism, I arrived at it by the way of experience & critical thought). A couple of months ago I came close to joining the Communist party but stepped back after realizing that they were too stuck in ideological considerations (many of which are either false, overly-idealistic or currently-irrelevant) for any real progress to be made.

I consider socialism simply an equalitarian agenda which places the well-being of the broader society and sustainability of said society at the forefront, and seeks to prevent the abuse of society or any of its elements by an individual or entity on selfish motivations (the government that waste gate so fears included). I personally have trouble with scientific socialism (i.e. communism) on a number of its ideological points, including its strictly class-based rhetoric which I don't think is particularly relevant today, or at least needs to be approached more pragmatically.

Shall we take this to another thread?

[elite_hunter_sh3]

:damn::damn::damn::damn: im surprised this went off topic from middle class erosion to socliasm vs capitalism, i accidentally dozed off off topic talking about socialiasm.. socialism is GREAT, capitalism is GREAT, bla bla bla is GREAT,


BACK TO ON TOPIC OR I WILL REQUEST THIS TO BE LOCKED IF IT DONT, original point of this thread was to find out your views on how middle class jobs are being done in china and asian markets, and some people say illegal aliens from mexico, i want to find out ur views, poinions and/or experiences if u have em ok?

[CCIP]

Says you, the one most notorious for going off-topic :p


I was responding to points raised at length by you and waste gate, that's all. Didn't mean to take it off-topic; I've little to say on the immigrant issue. I think there's ways of enforcing a fair and proper immigration system, but noone is willing to take it - perhaps for the very reason that it produces cheap, easily-coerced workers.

[fatty]

Have not been personally affected. I do think there are positives in outsourcing, though. I see foreign investments like these as stabilizing relations and reducing the chances for conflict. But it does suck for the people affected.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

its a growing problem in America and Canada, my dad said if it keeps going at the rate it is theres gonna be Very rich class, and unemployed class, then there will be violence and maybe worst case scenario revolution

http://www.alternet.org/workplace/41192/

[JetSnake]

its a growing problem in America and Canada, my dad said if it keeps going at the rate it is theres gonna be Very rich class, and unemployed class, then there will be violence and maybe worst case scenario revolution

http://www.alternet.org/workplace/41192/

Can't wait. It would spice things up abit. :arrgh!:

[geetrue]

I hate to bring prejudice views up, due to I believe God is watching me at all times ... so please be careful of what you say too.

But it really gets to me to call a tech line (for example net zero), but I know there are many others and get an obvious foreign accent. I can barely understand what they are telling me ... I can actually feel the anger in me well up as I am talking to someone in a third world country trying to answer my question, as I realize they need the pay check and the 1,000's of others in the USA that got moved on needed the paychecks too.

I have to repent unlike others that keep their anger, but it is real ... It is really happening ... the bottom line for big money making companies, I guess you can call them capitalist, (but what would our great country do without them) have efficency experts telling them to go overseas with their 800 numbers ...

I have even asked the person on the other side of the phone if they are in India, etc and they have agreed that is where they are at the moment I am talking to them.

Okay I got that off of my chest ... now I have to go repent ... :oops:

[NefariousKoel]

The way I see it is:
We are all brothers. There is no reason why Joe America should have a job but Joe Mexico should be banned from having a job.
There should be a level playing field for everyone to live and work where they like.

I have lost a previous job to a Latvian worker before, but only because I wouldn't accept a pay drop.


My view is not just a socialist view. It is a capitalist view because it is good for the business to have broad range of job seekers.
False Entitlement. This is the key in your outlook.

I could rant on for awhile but I like keeping things short. Here's a quote by a poster on another board elsewhere that sums it up quite well:

"Illegal aliens wanting a better life does not give them the right to break our laws. I hear this all the time, "Poor little Juan just wants a better life." I want a better life too. Why don't I just break into someone's house and steal one. No Juan, stay on your side of the border and fix your own country."

Working in a town that's dominated by foreigners.. some legal, some not, I can definitely say they drain my low pay when I see illegals buying steaks for dinner with food stamps. With money I pay the government.

[Bort]

I find it interesting that when America has so many huge issues to deal with at the moment, so many politicians and pundits are panicking and demanding immediate action be taken against people who hop our border fence so they can mow our lawns for less than minimum wage.:hmm:
On the list of pressing issues for our nation to address, this one is waaaay down the list.

[MadMike]

From Forbes.com

[note by Mike- Sweden has a population of nearly 10 million]

http://members.forbes.com/global/2001/0319/034.html

The new face of Swedish socialism
By Richard Heller, 03.19.01

Swedish snapshot A: Shows a taxed-to-the-eyeballs welfare state where the government grabs more than 52% of the country's GDP—the highest percentage of any industrial country. A Swedish businessman who earns Euro200,000 a year gets to keep just 49% of his paycheck. Of OECD countries, only France comes close to Sweden in taxing its most successful businesspeople (for complete tax data on 33 countries, see "The tax grab 2001 (http://www.forbes.com/global/2001/0205/058.html)," Forbes Global, Feb. 5).

Swedish snapshot B: Shows a booming economy bubbling with entrepreneurial activity. Growth is predicted to be 3.5% for 2001; inflation, 1.7%; unemployment, 4% (less than half the European average). In 1999, according to the European Information Technology Observatory, Sweden ranked first in the world in investment in information technology and telecommunications. Venture capital is pouring into Sweden, and labor productivity is rocketing: From 1990 to 1999 productivity climbed 47% in Sweden, against 39% in the U.S. and 31% (on average) in the EU. Last year, Sweden topped the global standings in R&D spending as a percentage of GDP with 3.7% (in the U.S. it was 3.1%), according to the OECD.

How to reconcile snapshots A and B? Is Sweden a bloated welfare state? Or a People's Republic of Entrepreneurs?

...

[loynokid]

There are a lot if injustices in the world but one must get up and keep going. As far as illegal aliens. Make them legal and get them on the tax payor rolls like the rest of the tax payers. Most do make minimal pay but still enjoy what the government provides. Instead of booting them out, make them a part. If the illegal refuses then it is time to deport. Just my personal thoughts.

Illegal imigrants have and are breaking federal and in many cases state law as soon as they cross the border without permission. Regardless of their condition within their own countries as soon as the enter the US under those conditions they are criminal.

My question would be if you forgive law breakers in this case on what other laws are we willing to give people a pass? Child molestation, discrimination based on race, premeditated murder. What good is the rule of law if it doesn't apply to everyone equally? Once anyone crosses into the US tey are subject to US law and if one crosses into the US illegaly they are criminal (they broke US law) and are subject to deportation which is also US law.

Many would argue that the law is discriminatory, that is not the case because it does not point to any pparticular group as criminal. If as a citizen of the US, you disagree with the current law I would suggest you contact your elected representative and express your wishes.


What you just stated is my personal belief of the immigration issue of the US. But what i don't know is how practical it is to find all of the illegal aliens and deport them, anyone have any info on this?

[loynokid]

I find it interesting that when America has so many huge issues to deal with at the moment, so many politicians and pundits are panicking and demanding immediate action be taken against people who hop our border fence so they can mow our lawns for less than minimum wage.:hmm:
On the list of pressing issues for our nation to address, this one is waaaay down the list.


It isn't the same priority as global terrorism, but this is an issue that is not to be ignored at the same time. It is a growing problem in America and if we want to keep it under control we are going to have to watch it and make sure that it dosen't get out of hand.

[Takeda Shingen]

BACK TO ON TOPIC OR I WILL REQUEST THIS TO BE LOCKED IF IT DONT

I will not be locking a thread that has been hijacked by it's creator.

[STEED]

One thing is for sure in the UK, the middle class always suffer the most.

[Kapitan]

i beg to differ steed the government is only out to do over the poor people if you got money your fine, im due to come into a fair amount of inheritance some time soon i will have to pay 33% of it to the government because i will get the inheritance tax hit me which stands for me right now £122,308.

My nan and grandad built up the house i live in so it could be passed on through the family however due to this inheritance tax that is no way possible now it will have to be sold by the time ive paid off the taxes and what have you and found some where else to live il have naff all.

If your off sick at work you are bullied into going back because they dont want to pay you the benifits, and when they do cock up they still dont want to pay out.

It came to the point a few days ago where my mother went into the social security offices after hearing she needed to go back to work (which she cant doctors orders) she said well i will paint myself ****ing black will that help get my claim ? (no offence to anyone intended here mearly repeating her exact words)

Theres been a whole new complex built near me but its not for english people its for forigners only, which gives the impression the government is saying **** you english people we will bring a load of imigrants to england and pay them for staying here.

I know a woman who came here a few years ago she was immediatly housed in a 3 bedroom house to which she complained so she got a bigger 4 bedroom house the government paid that, then she put in for a claim for a car she got £5000 of tax payers money, she herself claims all the benifits she gets around £300 a week her husband also claims he gets just £175 though and they both work 16 hours a week the maximum so in total they dont pay tax and they get working family tax credits.

That is just sick we have english people homeless dying starving and yet we are handing all our good money to some one who cant be botherd to get off thier fat arses and do some work.

Im not rich and nor is my girl friend far from it between us we pay nearly £375 tax per month and the abve mentioned people coin in around £500 a week tax free so mr blair how the **** does that work?

i some times struggle to make ends meet no lie to any one there cant afford to pay a phone bill at the moment let alone think about getting a mortgauge, mr blair has well and truely ****ed us over no wonder the NHS and pensions have gone to the ****ing swanney its cause he would rather give it to some lazy ****ing immigrants.

Sorry about the swearing.

[loynokid]

its a growing problem in America and Canada, my dad said if it keeps going at the rate it is theres gonna be Very rich class, and unemployed class, then there will be violence and maybe worst case scenario revolution

http://www.alternet.org/workplace/41192/


I really doubt that we would have a revolution because of illegal aliens... do you have any facts to back it up

[STEED]

Kap, the bulk of this country is middle class and always been used as a sponge by the government of the day, it always comes down to this. The government hardly touch the rich and as for the poor they got nothing so who pays the price in the UK? The middle class always has and always will.

Looking at the bigger picture 80% of the running of this country is dictated from the EU and in less than 20 years this country will be finished. The EU will finally control this country and I dread to think what life will be like under those corrupt swine.

[waste gate]

Kap, the bulk of this country is middle class and always been used as a sponge by the government of the day, it always comes down to this. The government hardly touch the rich and as for the poor they got nothing so who pays the price in the UK? The middle class always has and always will.

Looking at the bigger picture 80% of the running of this country is dictated from the EU and in less than 20 years this country will be finished. The EU will finally control this country and I dread to think what life will be like under those corrupt swine.

Why are you so afraid of the EU? The EU only has your best interest at heart.

[STEED]

Why are you so afraid of the EU? The EU only has your best interest at heart.

The end of the UK sliced and diced by the EU and it's coming, the only question is when?

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/3299/clipimage001wg8.jpg

[waste gate]

Why are you so afraid of the EU? The EU only has your best interest at heart.

The end of the UK!!!

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/3299/clipimage001wg8.jpg



Your nationalism is showing. This world is for everyone. Why does the UK deserve special status? Give up your national identity if you are not working for the world, and realise how much the EU can help you you are living in the dark age of imperialism.

[STEED]

Your nationalism is showing. This world is for everyone. Why does the UK deserve special status? Give up your national identity if you are not working for the world, and realise how much the EU can help you you are living in the dark age of imperialism.

How would you like the U.S.A to be carved up?

Goodbye to your national identity, your flag, your president and so on. And to be turned into a super socialist super state. I don't think many American folk would want that.

PS: I do accept that our empire under queen Victoria is long gone.

PPS: I don't trust the EU as they are working to wards an agenda.

[geetrue]

Your nationalism is showing. This world is for everyone. Why does the UK deserve special status? Give up your national identity if you are not working for the world, and realise how much the EU can help you you are living in the dark age of imperialism.

How would you like the U.S.A to be carved up?

Goodbye to your national identity, your flag, your president and so on. And to be turned into a super socialist super state. I don't think many American folk would want that.

PS: I do accept that our empire under queen Victoria is long gone.

PPS: I don't trust the EU as they are working to wards an agenda.

I looked at a EU map one time and saw Ireland had given in to the mass hysteria of EU and thought, "they blew up all those poor people in London all for nothing".

They had no principal's left, even though the one's they had were wrong in being angry with England at least they had principal's ... Exchanged for the desire for EU unity. Money does that to people, doesn't it?

I may be wrong, but I think England joined EU after Ireland ...
This isn't off topic is it ... after all I am middle class with Irish roots ... :rock:

[Letum]

The UK will still have to trade by the EU's rules even if it is not in the EU.

We may as well have our say about the rules by staying in the EU.

[Tchocky]

I looked at a EU map one time and saw Ireland had given in to the mass hysteria of EU and thought, "they blew up all those poor people in London all for nothing". Who blew up all those people in London? If you're talking about the IRA, thanks for tanning us all with the same brush. Really, it makes me feel great to be lined up with murderers and criminals.

They had no principal's left, even though the one's they had were wrong in being angry with England at least they had principal's ... Exchanged for the desire for EU unity. Money does that to people, doesn't it? Ireland's membership of the EU is a cause of our current prosperity, not a symptom. And it's "principles", by the way.

I may be wrong, but I think England joined EU after Ireland ...
This isn't off topic is it ... after all I am middle class with Irish roots ... :rock: Both the UK & the Republic of Ireland joined in 1973. Actually, on the same day.
Joining the EU is one of the best decisions an Irish government has ever made.

[geetrue]

Both the UK & the Republic of Ireland joined in 1973. Actually, on the same day.
Joining the EU is one of the best decisions an Irish government has ever made.

Ireland letting her starving masses migrant to America was the best decision Ireland ever made. Maybe I'm wrong about EU, but I will never be wrong about Ireland. :up:

[Tchocky]

Ireland letting her starving masses migrant to America was the best decision Ireland ever made. Maybe I'm wrong about EU, but I will never be wrong about Ireland. :up:
I looked at a EU map one time and saw Ireland had given in to the mass hysteria of EU and thought, "they blew up all those poor people in London all for nothing".
Wrong AND offensive. Would you mind answering the question in my previous post? I'm not sure what you meant.
Sadly, emigration wasnt so much a choice as a necessity. It's a shame that for a country that's been spread far and wide, we haven't been so welcoming to modern migrants.

[ASWnut101]

How?












EDIT: 1,000 POSTS!!!!!!!!!!!:()1: :()1: :()1: :()1: :|\\

[Tchocky]

Congrats ASW :)
I looked at a EU map one time and saw Ireland had given in to the mass hysteria of EU and thought, "they blew up all those poor people in London all for nothing".
He's inferring that Ireland, as a nation, murdered British people. He's ascribing the actions of a terrorist group to an entire nation.

[ASWnut101]

So, in essence, you are saying he is calling himself a terrorist?

[Tchocky]

So, in essence, you are saying he is calling himself a terrorist?

I don't know until he clarifies what he meant, which makes this little exchange fraught with poassible inaccuracies.....but no, i don't think he is.

[waste gate]

I think Tchocky is saying we need to eliminate all terrorism by any means and under any circumstance.

[geetrue]

Ireland letting her starving masses migrant to America was the best decision Ireland ever made. Maybe I'm wrong about EU, but I will never be wrong about Ireland. :up:
I looked at a EU map one time and saw Ireland had given in to the mass hysteria of EU and thought, "they blew up all those poor people in London all for nothing".
Wrong AND offensive. Would you mind answering the question in my previous post? I'm not sure what you meant.
Sadly, emigration wasnt so much a choice as a necessity. It's a shame that for a country that's been spread far and wide, we haven't been so welcoming to modern migrants.

I can't argue with someone I love ... I love the Irish, I've watched the movies about their cause, I've read the news about their cause, I've always been pro Christ and forgave both religions and their difference's, I've always been on the Irish side except the killing of innocent people's in England. I've watched the anger get less and less, but yet I know it is still smoldering in the stubborn factions.

I pray for their unity and believe ... I've only met a few people from Ireland, but will always admire their strength and understand that a soul is everything you put into it. My father's father came from Ireland and to make a long story short, I've had to adopt them (the Irish) because my father decided to take off after WWII was over, leaving me to always wonder who the Irish really are.

I'm not going to argue with you is the bottom line ... we would just start putting the gloves on and as everyone knows you can't pick up a mug of ale with the gloves on. :know:

[Tchocky]

Um, OK then.

I can't argue with someone I love ... I love the Irish, I've watched the movies about their cause, I've read the news about their cause, Please stop bringing the Irish under one banner. We don't have a cause. Like any other country, sections of the population have certain beliefs and causes, other sections have others. There is no such thing as "an Irish cause". I'm not trying to argue, but I am going to disagree with you :). Saying that the Irish "blew up all those people in London" makes me very, very angry. But that's alright, I'm an angry person :p

I pray for their unity and believe I don't get the United Ireland idea, but I've gone into that a couple of times here so ne'ermind...
leaving me to always wonder who the Irish really are. Just another country, man.
you can't pick up a mug of ale with the gloves on. :know: Ale? For crying out loud have a stout!

[elite_hunter_sh3]

heres the trail of falling dominos (domino effect)

1. jobs start going to asian markets and sweatshops and mexican illegal aliens start taking jobs.
2. middle class workers start losing jobs.
3.middle class turns into low income class
4. low income class turns into class with guns and gangs and (becomes ghetto town,city etc..)
5. no money means no food
6.no food means humans will kill to feed themselves (humans have been proven ever since our existence and evolution to kill as many as possible to satisfy our hunger.
7.when humans start killing and stealing to feed em selves the high class who own all te food companies etc.. start falling apart ( no customers cuz they got no money)
8. then citizens take up arms cuz government didnt do anything in the beggining and no control over citizens = u r FUBAR:down:,
9. all hell breaks loose and revolution starts
10. other countries intervene to calm everything down.
11.civies get military stuff cuz they overran the armed forces and national guard,
12. so now u got almost 300 million people with basically the top of the line military technology that are hungry and pissed :hmm::hmm::hmm::hmm: plus they got nukes:dead:


:hmm::hmm::hmm: this is prolly worst case scenario but who knows crazy things happened in this home we call earth over the centuries

[ASWnut101]

Worst case scenario is that we actually use the nukes to get our jobs back!:p

[loynokid]

Your nationalism is showing. This world is for everyone. Why does the UK deserve special status? Give up your national identity if you are not working for the world, and realise how much the EU can help you you are living in the dark age of imperialism.

How would you like the U.S.A to be carved up?

Goodbye to your national identity, your flag, your president and so on. And to be turned into a super socialist super state. I don't think many American folk would want that.

PS: I do accept that our empire under queen Victoria is long gone.

PPS: I don't trust the EU as they are working to wards an agenda.


The dark age of imperialism...:down: :shifty: this is atrocious. nobody in the US would want that. Socialism has never worked. Every single place that it has been tried, it hasn't worked. That's a fact!... And also, I don't know about the UK, but the Wealthy class in america pays about twice as much taxes as the middle class do, (in percentages).

[Tchocky]

How would you like the U.S.A to be carved up?

Goodbye to your national identity, your flag, your president and so on. And to be turned into a super socialist super state. I don't think many American folk would want that.

STEED, I don't know about you, but none of the above has happened in Ireland. Nor are any of them going to happen anytime soon.

[loynokid]

How would you like the U.S.A to be carved up?

Goodbye to your national identity, your flag, your president and so on. And to be turned into a super socialist super state. I don't think many American folk would want that.

STEED, I don't know about you, but none of the above has happened in Ireland. Nor are any of them going to happen anytime soon.

And thats a really good thing too... if that happened to any country it would be in shambles...:roll:

[Tchocky]

And thats a really good thing too... if that happened to any country it would be in shambles...:roll: Yep, but STEED thinks it's happening already to all of Europe. I disagree.

@ elite - Middle class jobs don't go overseas. Low-income low-skill jobs are what get outsourced. Why? Because labour is cheaper abroad. It is a fact of globalisation that Western workers can't undercut foreign workers, and thats not necessarily a bad thing. Western workers have a skill advantage, they are more highly-trained, and if they're not they should be.
The West can't compete in low-skill manufacturing anymore, most Western economies have moved past it.

[Mush Martin]

Life is like that
evolution is a continual process of adaptation to changing environments
a process without result or final product.
and all of our respective countries be they native or adopted or even both
for England Is my Mother and Canada is my Wife and the rules for talking to
or touching either are pretty much the same with me. Regardless our countries are not unlike individuals as entities and life is what you make it.

it is the Perogative of the corporate to seek greater production and profit
from less overhead and risk.

it is the national perogative to attract business

if were soft as countries so it is as when we are soft as individuals

You can in your life or in your country feel as though you are a victim
of circumstance or a product of your choices. one empowers the other
guy and takes things out of your control and one gives you the power to
alter or change your circumstances for improvement.

It is up to us to improve our lives and our countries and our world.
so you can blame the mexicans and feel your not worthwhile to
the corporates or you can look at what you ARE able to do that
could improve the situation.

As steinbeck said
Life isnt about playing good cards its about playing a bad hand well

Look around and blame the mexicans for being themselves wanting to
win business and secure their future or the companies for wanting
to be profitable and efficient and adapatable.for being themselves.

but the only thing we are able to change is ourselves.
and what we are doing to secure our futures.

[ASWnut101]

Middle class jobs don't go overseas. Low-income low-skill jobs are what get outsourced. Why? Because labour is cheaper abroad. It is a fact of globalisation that Western workers can't undercut foreign workers, and thats not necessarily a bad thing. Western workers have a skill advantage, they are more highly-trained, and if they're not they should be.
The West can't compete in low-skill manufacturing anymore, most Western economies have moved past it.


Then why does my TEXAS Instruments calculator say on the back: "Made in China?" Why does a certain American flag that I saw say "Made in Thailand?" There are plenty of jobs that have gone overseas. Plus, what do you define as "low-skill manufacturing?"

[Tchocky]

Then why does my TEXAS Instruments calculator say on the back: "Made in China?" Why does a certain American flag that I saw say "Made in Thailand?" There are plenty of jobs that have gone overseas. Plus, what do you define as "low-skill manufacturing?"
Assembly line working, so-called "lego jobs". Such as your calculator being put together, or the flag. They are made in low-wage countries because it makes good business sense to do so.
The calculator was probably designed in America, by an skilled worker with a qualification in electronic engineering, who's getting paid a damn sight more than whoever clicked the plastic and PCB together. And that's where we need to focus our labour forces, on education and marketable skills.

[Ishmael]

Why do you shrink from what Capitalism has wrought? When you have Jack Welch, former CEO of GE, talking about how nice it would be if factories were built on barges so they could be moved to the cheapest labor market, it's not hard to understand. It's called a Race To The Bottom. Capital will always flow where labor costs are cheapest, regardless of the government there. In fact, corporations prefer authoritarian governments because real democracy is too messy and workers might actually demand wage, collective bargaining and environmetal laws. Authoritarian governments neutralize such leanings by merely destroying anyone who advocates for those things.
As long as the Kings of Corporations can live and work inside their gated communities with their private security apparatus, don't look for anything to change. Until the shrinking middle-class takes up arms in this class war Corporations are prosecuting against us, there will be no change until the class war is brought to their doors.

[loynokid]

And thats a really good thing too... if that happened to any country it would be in shambles...:roll: Yep, but STEED thinks it's happening already to all of Europe. I disagree.

@ elite - Middle class jobs don't go overseas. Low-income low-skill jobs are what get outsourced. Why? Because labour is cheaper abroad. It is a fact of globalisation that Western workers can't undercut foreign workers, and thats not necessarily a bad thing. Western workers have a skill advantage, they are more highly-trained, and if they're not they should be.
The West can't compete in low-skill manufacturing anymore, most Western economies have moved past it.


Yes, I think its not happening already in europe, i do think that european countries are trying some more socialist type ways of doing things and that might hurt them in the long run

[loynokid]

Why do you shrink from what Capitalism has wrought? When you have Jack Welch, former CEO of GE, talking about how nice it would be if factories were built on barges so they could be moved to the cheapest labor market, it's not hard to understand. It's called a Race To The Bottom. Capital will always flow where labor costs are cheapest, regardless of the government there. In fact, corporations prefer authoritarian governments because real democracy is too messy and workers might actually demand wage, collective bargaining and environmetal laws. Authoritarian governments neutralize such leanings by merely destroying anyone who advocates for those things.
As long as the Kings of Corporations can live and work inside their gated communities with their private security apparatus, don't look for anything to change. Until the shrinking middle-class takes up arms in this class war Corporations are prosecuting against us, there will be no change until the class war is brought to their doors.

Ok, then i have one question for you, Name five countries where a Socialist government has been successful. :hmm:

[NefariousKoel]

And thats a really good thing too... if that happened to any country it would be in shambles...:roll: Yep, but STEED thinks it's happening already to all of Europe. I disagree.

@ elite - Middle class jobs don't go overseas. Low-income low-skill jobs are what get outsourced. Why? Because labour is cheaper abroad. It is a fact of globalisation that Western workers can't undercut foreign workers, and thats not necessarily a bad thing. Western workers have a skill advantage, they are more highly-trained, and if they're not they should be.
The West can't compete in low-skill manufacturing anymore, most Western economies have moved past it.
Yeah, and I see the "low-income low-skill" Americans increasing. That's the only people the current status-quo hurts. I see quite a few of these people every day. The American lower class has been getting lower quite a bit lately, the only beneficiaries that I've seen are the illegal/imported Mexicans from.

The sad thing is, many times daily I see Mexican immigrants ( many here legally due to their employers pulling strings) who can't speak any English whip out wads of $100 bills to buy whatever they want without hesitation. While I see people born here in the US scraping up coins... literally dollars worth.. to buy something that's less than $10. I certainly can't say they're rocket scientists, but I'm positive they could get a job in all the chicken processing plants/playground equipment manufacturers in one of the towns I work.

The Mexicans have more disposable income than I do and I'm single with no children!

Something is seriously wrong with this setup.

[loynokid]

And thats a really good thing too... if that happened to any country it would be in shambles...:roll: Yep, but STEED thinks it's happening already to all of Europe. I disagree.

@ elite - Middle class jobs don't go overseas. Low-income low-skill jobs are what get outsourced. Why? Because labour is cheaper abroad. It is a fact of globalisation that Western workers can't undercut foreign workers, and thats not necessarily a bad thing. Western workers have a skill advantage, they are more highly-trained, and if they're not they should be.
The West can't compete in low-skill manufacturing anymore, most Western economies have moved past it.
Yeah, and I see the "low-income low-skill" Americans increasing. That's the only people the current status-quo hurts. I see quite a few of these people every day. The American lower class has been getting lower quite a bit lately, the only beneficiaries that I've seen are the illegal/imported Mexicans from.

The sad thing is, many times daily I see Mexican immigrants ( many here legally due to their employers pulling strings) who can't speak any English whip out wads of $100 bills to buy whatever they want without hesitation. While I see people born here in the US scraping up coins... literally dollars worth.. to buy something that's less than $10. I certainly can't say they're rocket scientists, but I'm positive they could get a job in all the chicken processing plants/playground equipment manufacturers in one of the towns I work.

The Mexicans have more disposable income than I do and I'm single with no children!

Something is seriously wrong with this setup.


I know, but another point to bring up is why are some americans very poor and unemployed? My theory is that some of them are poor because they don't want to do any work, or some have made very bad choices in life like drug abbuse, and serious felonies. there are also of course some people who just cant get back on their feet due to un forseen problems and such, but as I understand it, that is a pretty small percentage of the low income class of the US.

[Takeda Shingen]

Ok, then i have one question for you, Name five countries where a Socialist government has been successful. :hmm:

Well, this is not really a clear question. For socialist governments, or governing bodies where a socialist party and agenda are in power, the list becomes quite long and detailed:

China
North Korea
Cuba
Venezuela
Vietnam
Syria
Belarus
Sweeden
Laos
Zambia
Turkmenistan
Libya
Algeria
Norway (depending on the type of analysis used)
Namibia

However, not one of these nations is purely socialist in it's economic policy, just as there is no purely capitalist economic policy, and since both socialism and capitalism are strictly economic in origin, this will be the tell-tale. In the case of each of the afforementioned 'socialist' nations, you will find the existence of various degrees of free-market and private-run sectors, just as you will find common welfare and government-issued funding in all 'capitalist' nations. In reality, there are no purely ideological economic systems in the world today, or in it's history.

[waste gate]

Ok, then i have one question for you, Name five countries where a Socialist government has been successful. :hmm:

Well, this is not really a clear question. For socialist governments, or governing bodies where a socialist party and agenda are in power, the list becomes quite long and detailed:

China
North Korea
Cuba
Venezuela
Vietnam
Syria
Belarus
Sweeden
Laos
Zambia
Turkmenistan
Libya
Algeria
Norway (depending on the type of analysis used)
Namibia

However, not one of these nations is purely socialist in it's economic policy, just as there is no purely capitalist economic policy, and since both socialism and capitalism are strictly economic in origin, this will be the tell-tale. In the case of each of the afforementioned 'socialist' nations, you will find the existence of various degrees of free-market and private-run sectors, just as you will find common welfare and government-issued funding in all 'capitalist' nations. In reality, there are no purely ideological economic systems in the world today, or in it's history.

I'd be happy if the US would adopt Thomas Jefferson's idea that the gov't should only secure the borders and deliver the mail.

[August]

China
North Korea
Cuba
Venezuela
Vietnam
Syria
Belarus
Sweeden
Laos
Zambia
Turkmenistan
Libya
Algeria
Norway (depending on the type of analysis used)
Namibia

That list is a pretty sad indictment of Socialist success stories don't ya think? I mean with the exception of maybe Sweden or Norway none of these countries would be places i'd tolerate living in.

[loynokid]

Ok, then i have one question for you, Name five countries where a Socialist government has been successful. :hmm:
Well, this is not really a clear question. For socialist governments, or governing bodies where a socialist party and agenda are in power, the list becomes quite long and detailed:

China
North Korea
Cuba
Venezuela
Vietnam
Syria
Belarus
Sweeden
Laos
Zambia
Turkmenistan
Libya
Algeria
Norway (depending on the type of analysis used)
Namibia

However, not one of these nations is purely socialist in it's economic policy, just as there is no purely capitalist economic policy, and since both socialism and capitalism are strictly economic in origin, this will be the tell-tale. In the case of each of the afforementioned 'socialist' nations, you will find the existence of various degrees of free-market and private-run sectors, just as you will find common welfare and government-issued funding in all 'capitalist' nations. In reality, there are no purely ideological economic systems in the world today, or in it's history.

Ok, that economic stuff is confusing, now this is a simple question, it has a 5 word answer. Here is my response.

China - The only reason they are doing good is that they have highly decentralized their economy. Centralization is socialism, decentralization is not.

North Korea - Tyranical Dictator on the verge of having nukes. But what about the treaty thing, you say? North korea didn't keep its promise when clinton or any of our other president's tried to make deals with them, why should they now. And also check out living conditions. There are always food shortages in NK, there economy has major problems, check out this pic.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Korean_peninsula_at_night.jpg
the light in the lower part of the peninsula is south korea, not socialist, the upper part of the peninsula (NK) has almost no light at all, This shows the economic depression that north korea is suffering. And big suprise, north korea has a socialist central power government.


Cuba - Most people there don't even have toilet paper. You call that succesful?

Almost all of the other countries you named either have terrible living conditions, or have a half decentralized economy. If you run a country with a socialist centralized government you fail, that's all there is to it.

[waste gate]

China - The only reason they are doing good is that they have highly decentralized their economy. Centralization is socialism, decentralization is not.


That is certainly part of the picture. The other part is that there are one billion consumers. The free market works.

[Chaotic42]

Goodbye to your national identity, your flag, your president and so on. And to be turned into a super socialist super state. I don't think many American folk would want that.

PS: I do accept that our empire under queen Victoria is long gone.

PPS: I don't trust the EU as they are working to wards an agenda.

It's already happening. Fly the American flag? You're an imperialist and a redneck. Vote against free handouts? You're an evil capitalist. Want to stop illegal immigration? You're a racist.

Government control is slowly creeping into every facet of our society, and our identity is changing for the worse.

[waste gate]

Goodbye to your national identity, your flag, your president and so on. And to be turned into a super socialist super state. I don't think many American folk would want that.

PS: I do accept that our empire under queen Victoria is long gone.

PPS: I don't trust the EU as they are working to wards an agenda.

It's already happening. Fly the American flag? You're an imperialist and a redneck. Vote against free handouts? You're an evil capitalist. Want to stop illegal immigration? You're a racist.

Government control is slowly creeping into every facet of our society, and our identity is changing for the worse.

Lets not forget that new orleans will be a chocolate city again. In other words a net taker.

[ASWnut101]

Lets not forget that new orleans will be a chocolate city again.
^
:rotfl: I remember when he said that comment. He was SO serious too!

[loynokid]

Goodbye to your national identity, your flag, your president and so on. And to be turned into a super socialist super state. I don't think many American folk would want that.

PS: I do accept that our empire under queen Victoria is long gone.

PPS: I don't trust the EU as they are working to wards an agenda.
It's already happening. Fly the American flag? You're an imperialist and a redneck. Vote against free handouts? You're an evil capitalist. Want to stop illegal immigration? You're a racist.

Government control is slowly creeping into every facet of our society, and our identity is changing for the worse.
I don't think its the government that is slowly creeping into every facet of our society, its the liberal media and pop culture. Now I don't want to start the lib media debate again, but it is true. This is because the government (as far as the executive branch is concerned, and also before 2006 mid-terms) wanted the pledge of alligence to be continued in schools, didn't want free handouts,wants to stop illegal immigration. Bush in particular is being called a liar, a nazi, a fascist, and so on, for this not by the government but by the SP (Secular Progressive, incase you don't read Bill O'Reilly) Media. They attack him daily. If the SP's win this culture war, then we could be doomed to a socialist, central power country:nope:

[ASWnut101]

Plus, all of the Pledge banning and such was backed by the American Communist Lawyers Assosiation (or ACLU for short!).:yep:

[Chaotic42]

Lets not forget that new orleans will be a chocolate city again. In other words a net taker.

New Orleans...

I live about 35 miles from NO and every day in the paper and on the news I see people screaming about not getting their government money. Most of them were bitterly poor before, but now they want everything for free. The funny thing is that there are *so* many jobs around here. I mean, local stores can't even stay open late because there's no one to work. They're offering $9/hr to work at Walmart, which is pretty nice for the work. It may be more in New Orleans.

As for me, you couldn't pay me to live in New Orleans.

[Takeda Shingen]

Ok, then i have one question for you, Name five countries where a Socialist government has been successful. :hmm:
Well, this is not really a clear question. For socialist governments, or governing bodies where a socialist party and agenda are in power, the list becomes quite long and detailed:

China
North Korea
Cuba
Venezuela
Vietnam
Syria
Belarus
Sweeden
Laos
Zambia
Turkmenistan
Libya
Algeria
Norway (depending on the type of analysis used)
Namibia

However, not one of these nations is purely socialist in it's economic policy, just as there is no purely capitalist economic policy, and since both socialism and capitalism are strictly economic in origin, this will be the tell-tale. In the case of each of the afforementioned 'socialist' nations, you will find the existence of various degrees of free-market and private-run sectors, just as you will find common welfare and government-issued funding in all 'capitalist' nations. In reality, there are no purely ideological economic systems in the world today, or in it's history.

Ok, that economic stuff is confusing, now this is a simple question, it has a 5 word answer. Here is my response.

China - The only reason they are doing good is that they have highly decentralized their economy. Centralization is socialism, decentralization is not.

North Korea - Tyranical Dictator on the verge of having nukes. But what about the treaty thing, you say? North korea didn't keep its promise when clinton or any of our other president's tried to make deals with them, why should they now. And also check out living conditions. There are always food shortages in NK, there economy has major problems, check out this pic.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Korean_peninsula_at_night.jpg
the light in the lower part of the peninsula is south korea, not socialist, the upper part of the peninsula (NK) has almost no light at all, This shows the economic depression that north korea is suffering. And big suprise, north korea has a socialist central power government.


Cuba - Most people there don't even have toilet paper. You call that succesful?

Almost all of the other countries you named either have terrible living conditions, or have a half decentralized economy. If you run a country with a socialist centralized government you fail, that's all there is to it.

You asked me for a sucessful socialist government. You did not ask me for a sucessful socialist economy. First, let us reestablish the fact that socialism is an economic term, along with capitalism. Please note also that both North Korea and Sweeden are considered to have socialized economic policies. Also, please note that North Korea does not elect it's officials, whereas Sweeden does. This is because Sweeden is a liberal democracy, just like the US, while North Korea is a military dictatorship. As such, those terms relate to governmental styles, along with communism, anarchism, oligarchy, plutocracy, fascism and theocracy.

As all of the goverments I had mentioned have been able to remain in power for a long term, they are, as such successful. After all, the goal of government is to retain control of it's ability to govern. However, understand that there is significant difference in what you and most of the individuals in this thread are describing as 'socialism', and the actual dictatorships to which you refer. The two are not linked as prerequisite.

[Tchocky]

Now I don't want to start the lib media debate again, but it is true.
So you don't want to have the debate, but you want to win it?

[ASWnut101]

Now I don't want to start the lib media debate again, but it is true.
So you don't want to have the debate, but you want to win it?

:roll: Here we go again...

[geetrue]

North Korea - Tyranical Dictator on the verge of having nukes. But what about the treaty thing, you say? North korea didn't keep its promise when clinton or any of our other president's tried to make deals with them, why should they now. And also check out living conditions. There are always food shortages in NK, there economy has major problems, check out this pic.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Korean_peninsula_at_night.jpg
the light in the lower part of the peninsula is south korea, not socialist, the upper part of the peninsula (NK) has almost no light at all, This shows the economic depression that north korea is suffering. And big suprise, north korea has a socialist central power government.

Cuba - Most people there don't even have toilet paper. You call that succesful?



The picture doesn't show the graft and greed of the world in both countries either.
The picture doesn't show all of the humble rural people on candle light, oil lamps or that just plain go to bed early either.
The picture doesn't show how many people aren't worried about what's on satellite, HBO, Showtime etc.
The picture doesn't show how many people are better off without the world as we know it.

I was raised anti-communist and I agree they have brained washed their people, especially North Korea with little speaker boxes stuck on one radio channel in every apartment, home and office.

But I have to exercise more caution with my freedoms. The price I am willing to pay, because someone stood up for them from the taxes on tea to answering Kuwatti's call for help one day.

As for Cuba not having any toilet paper ... My God! What do they wrap their fish in ... :lol:

[Tchocky]

:roll: Here we go again... We've had the aarghument before, and the outcome was at best inconclusive...I could go on, but I won't.:p
I know, but another point to bring up is why are some americans very poor and unemployed? My theory is that some of them are poor because they don't want to do any work, or some have made very bad choices in life like drug abbuse, and serious felonies. there are also of course some people who just cant get back on their feet due to un forseen problems and such, but as I understand it, that is a pretty small percentage of the low income class of the US. There will always be a section of society that won't work, you're quite right. that's why one definition of full employment is that everyone "willing and able to work has job opportunities". Usually this means 3-5% unemployment.

Yeah, and I see the "low-income low-skill" Americans increasing. That's the only people the current status-quo hurts. I see quite a few of these people every day. The American lower class has been getting lower quite a bit lately, the only beneficiaries that I've seen are the illegal/imported Mexicans from. They won't be able to compete, seeing as the jobs they can do are leaving the country. Harsh I know, but no company will pay an American $12/hr to do a job that a Thai will do for $4. American workers need to improve their skills and qualifications, luckily they live in a country where it's very easy for them to do that, and then can move up the employment scale.

[Bort]

Let me clarify something here, Socialism means different things in different places and by no means is synonymous with totalitarian oppressive governments. It can be used as a label for political parties promoting the European-style welfare state (Like Sweden, Norway and a whole bunch of European states) or for a communist country like Cuba, but the two are quite different. Lumping them all together is at best inaccurate and at worst ignorant and inflammatory. They just aren't the same thing, despite the same use of terminology.

BTW, in my opinion, China is no longer a communist state, because it no longer delivers some of the social services, like education or health care for free. It has now crossed the bridge to fascism.:know:

[waste gate]

China is no longer a communist state, because it no longer delivers some of the social services, like education or health care for free.

Therein lies the problem with socialism nothing is free. Whether it is paid for by gov'ts, the money, or hardwork of others. All things under socialism are paid for by those able and willing to work their ass off. Taken without consequence by those able but not willing to work for thier life. If it were the survival of the fitest that liberals are so fond of quoting many of you would have been cast off as non-productive curses on society and left to die.