Iron Coffins - is the AI too easy??

[horrgakx]

I've read with interest the threads about GWX AI being quite hard on the player. Well, I thought this too. That is until I read "Iron Coffins" by Herbert Werner.

He describes first hand how he battled the improving Allied sub-hunting technology and how he was battered by Destroyers and Aircraft, particularly late in the war. After reading it, and being in 1944/5 in SHIII, I get the distinct impression that we really have it easy in the game.

Its a stunning read and I was surprised how I could relate to events within the game. The Amazon UK link to it is here; http://tinyurl.com/ys5c4m and the synopsis follows;

This is a story of triumph, disaster and eventual survival - against all odds. Herbert Werner was one of the few U-boat commanders whose skill, daring and incredible luck saw him safely through to the end of the war. His is an epic and chilling description of the fearful havoc wrought by one small U-boat on the Atlantic convoys. But easy success ebbed away in the face of ever-improving Allied detection and attack techniques. The hunters became the prey, to suffer appalling losses. Of 842 U-boats launched 779 were sunk, 'iron-coffins' to 28,000 men. Herbert Werner's graphic account of war waged from beneath the sea, of horror and cold, cruel death, is dedicated to the seamen of all nations who died in the Battle of the Atlantic.


Dave

[Mooncatt]

looks like a good read m8. with regards to how difficult the A.I is i would say its down to the player. some people think the A.I is quite easy and some like myself consider it to be rather tough. bottom line is that at the end of the day it is just A.I its never gonna perfectly represent the actual actions of a human being although saying that sh3 A.I does a bloody good job :lol:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Yeah thats a great read:up:

Edit: Should add that I do not think that the AI is to easy, plus you can ramp up your realim settings to add even more challenge, one of the things about this series that makes it so good.

[AVGWarhawk]

I believe the GWX AI are very good. In fact we have it darn easy because there are no FIDO or sonobouy to contend with. Have a few sonobouy around you and a FIDO up the wazoo along with a few DD for good measure.....yeah that gets ugly. To make a good balance the GWX AI need to be tough and I believe that balance is achieved. The limitations of the game does not take it further unfortunately.

[jasonsagert]

Ok, if you're reading this thread, and you a haven't read Iron Coffins--stop, get your jacket, and go to your nearest bookstore. If they don't have it, yell something at them about stocking crap books, then go home and find it on the internet and buy it.

Read it once, and then you'll want to read it again.

I've literally read hundreds of books, but Iron Coffins is one of my favorites. I've probably read the thing 5 times, and still find myself re-reading portions of it all the time. Damn, if you like U-boats and SH3, Iron Coffins will give you a boner. Yes, you didn't misread that, it will give you a boner.

That's all I have to say about that,

J

[RawRecruit]

Regarding the AI, I think the DDs should stay around a bit longer, though. Always remember the bit in the Cruel Sea (I know it's fiction, but the author was a RN sailor on escorts I believe) where the captain of the Saltash silently hangs about for hours believing a U-boat is still there, and when the U-boat thinks the enemy has long gone and starts moving they DC it to death!! :o

[Dowly]

I too must recommend the 'Iron Coffins', a great book indeed. ;)

The AI in every game comes really down to the player. How difficult he wants the game be? How good player he is? etc.

AI is (and will be for a looong time into future) predictable, after few hours of playing, you can predict what he´ll do next.

But then again, I really dont know how much the AI is improved in GWX... I still havent played more than 1 mission. :oops:

[jasonsagert]

More on topic,

RawRecruit: Yes, I agree. Though the time that a destroy spends looking for you can't be randomized once in game (someone correct me if I'm wrong). So, we're limited to using a program like SH3 commander to randomize it everytime you start, however, for as long as you play, the destroyers will spend the same amount of time "looking" once they've detected you. AND yes, this is not "historically accurate". That said, I believe you can extend this time to however long you'd like, if that's what you want--check the MOD section.

horrgakx: yes, we do have it easy, but attacking convoys, or even getting to them for that matter, in 44' with GWX is still a challenge.

It is a game, and everything that did exist isn't modelled, however, it can still be a challange. Hell, there's plenty of mods that make GWX even more difficult if that's what you're after. I use NVdrifters longer repair times for example. Makes taking damage a lot more punishing.

Anyway, flavor to taste so to speak, but I'd agree--yes, it's probably not as hard as it was in 44' considering that only about 1 in 7 u-boats that went on patrol actually returned.

J

[melnibonian]

I think AI in GWX is spot on. It's not impossible to evade Destroyers but you have to be REALLY careful. As the years go by DDs get more aggressive and more dangerous as it was in real life.

About Iron Coffins I agree with most people. It's a very good book, and what's making it a must is that it's one of the few first hand accounts we have on the U-Boat life. In my opinion it's a must:up:

[horrgakx]

I agree about evasion of destroyers etc however Herbert Werner gave the impression that aircraft and destroyers were many times more likely to be there when you surfaced, particularly around the Bay of Biscay, Channel etc... Also destroyers seemed to be a couple of thousand yards away when they spotted them, they weren't picked up before this.

[RawRecruit]

I'm only half way through Iron Coffins but so far teh real chilling bit is when they're on patrol and there's an absolute flood of constant 'U-XX Sunk' messages.:dead:

[Brag]

One of the features of GWX AI, which I think is tougher than the real thing, is: The DD always knows exactly where you fired from (correct me if I'm wrong) and will use this datum to start looking for you. :roll:

[Heibges]

I have to say that after reading the Uboat Commanders Handbook, Uboat Commander by Peter Cremer, Uboat Commander by Prien, and 10 Years and 11 Days, that I think the AI in SH3 is very realistic.

Also, Herbert Werner comes across as kind of a crybaby. He does something a military officer should never do, and that is blame something that goes wrong on someone else.

He blames his XO for the boat getting sunk by hitting a mine in harbor.
He blames his LI for not being able to keep proper trim.
He blames his Rosen and Doenitz for having to go to sea, despite extreme danger from Allied Radar.

[Ducimus]

I also recommend "Steel boat, Iron hearts" by Hans Goebeler. Gives a crewmans view. Iron coffins is a good book, but i woudlnt take it as 100% factual truth. I feel he embellished some things a little bit, but thats ok, it's his life, and his story to tell.

[CptGrayWolf]

I also recommend "Steel boat, Iron hearts" by Hans Goebeler. Gives a crewmans view. Iron coffins is a good book, but i woudlnt take it as 100% factual truth. I feel he embellished some things a little bit, but thats ok, it's his life, and his story to tell.

The best part is when Werner calmly describes how he shot down an airplane all by himslef with a water-cooled WWI type machine gun. :rotfl:

[Finback]

I have to say that after reading the Uboat Commanders Handbook, Uboat Commander by Peter Cremer, Uboat Commander by Prien, and 10 Years and 11 Days, that I think the AI in SH3 is very realistic.



These are good books. I really enjoy Uboat Commander by Peter Cremer (good choice to post that one Heibges). It is a great mix of personal experience and Uboat technology vs Allied ASW tech and tactics. I really like the part where Cremer talks about deep dives (paraphrasing): "...tested for 150 meters. In fact these limits would be pushed and some boats would go deeper until the frame members began to crack." :doh: Only desperation would push submariners to such extremes...

And I agree that everyone should have a copy of Iron Coffins. While not completely accurate historically (as far as ships sunk and convoy actions they were involved in) it is still one of the Greatest personal accounts I've read.

I believe GWX addresses many of the issues that AI was too easy. The only wish on my list here is that when escorts lose contact they would go into a ladder search pattern or line-abreast searches when multiple escorts are present. One of the greatest challenges for escorts was maintaining contact with a sub. With all the dc's they drop in-game, they wouldn't be able to use Any sonar effectively because the water is disturbed for minutes after a dc run is made. Attack runs under ideal conditions typically happened no faster that 20 minutes apart from each other. Creeping attack and Buttercup attacks would also be...interesting.

That said I can see from a corporate view-point why they weren't included. Not everyone would hang with a simulation (game) if they would creep along for 20 minutes, flank to avoid dc's, creep along for 40 minutes only to be found again and after 8 hours of this be obliterated by a creeping attack you didn't hear coming. Would have been a nice option though for masochists like me ;) .

Cheers!!!

[scalelokt]

I think the AI is very good in GWX, I wouldnt change a thing. In the books it may seem like they had it harder, but I'll bet GWX does a good job with the AI. One thing to remember is that the real world situation would be more difficult, but for reasons that a game could never emulate. For example: missing home, sick of eating same old food, crew members being scared and panicked, CO2 levels rising, and of course the decisions you make mean your life. The point being that in a real life situation your decisions would be affected by all of those things, where as in the comfort of your home you are making all your decisions calmly without all this stress and the worst you risk is a "u-boat destroyed" screen instead of a watery grave. That gives you an enormous advantage over how it was for those in really doing this. From the viewpoint of how the enemy responds to your presence, I think in ways GWX is more difficult. I've said it once and I'll say it again, GWX is the most incredible mod (or collection of mods) ever made, I am just blown away by how real this game is, in all respects. SH3 sure is addicting isnt it? :ping:

[AVGWarhawk]

I think the AI is very good in GWX, I wouldnt change a thing. In the books it may seem like they had it harder, but I'll bet GWX does a good job with the AI. One thing to remember is that the real world situation would be more difficult, but for reasons that a game could never emulate. For example: missing home, sick of eating same old food, crew members being scared and panicked, CO2 levels rising, and of course the decisions you make mean your life. The point being that in a real life situation your decisions would be affected by all of those things, where as in the comfort of your home you are making all your decisions calmly without all this stress and the worst you risk is a "u-boat destroyed" screen instead of a watery grave. That gives you an enormous advantage over how it was for those in really doing this. From the viewpoint of how the enemy responds to your presence, I think in ways GWX is more difficult. I've said it once and I'll say it again, GWX is the most incredible mod (or collection of mods) ever made, I am just blown away by how real this game is, in all respects. SH3 sure is addicting isnt it? :ping:
:up:

Like I also stated. ..no FIDO to contend with or sonobouy. To me the AI should be hard to overcome these two short comings alone. Some think the AI DD to good. I say no, they make it a challenge. We need more now....I say FIDO...if it can worked out. Nothing like a FIDO tail grabbin' your arse in the Atlantic:o

[cobalt]

Also, Herbert Werner comes across as kind of a crybaby. He does something a military officer should never do, and that is blame something that goes wrong on someone else.

He blames his XO for the boat getting sunk by hitting a mine in harbor.
He blames his LI for not being able to keep proper trim.
He blames his Rosen and Doenitz for having to go to sea, despite extreme danger from Allied Radar.

are you serious?

his xo took the boat out without permission and got a of couple men killed.

his LI was obviously a new recruit and was not trained properly enough to keep the
boat trimmed.

Wouldnt you be pissed too if all your friends were dying?

a cry baby

wow

wowww

[Mooncatt]

whats a FIDO???

[Morts]

its a homing torpedo:up:
you dont want that hunting you

[AVGWarhawk]

whats a FIDO???
As Morts stated. These were dropped by Allied aircraft. Just after the boat submerged the pilots would drop these. It would home in on the screws. Darn effective. So tough DD in GWX are good in my view because we do have it somewhat easy out there while in game.

Sonobouy also dropped. Could hear the uboat all day. Planes come and go for relief. The uboat boys were hating life when the CVE attack groups showed up in the neighborhood.

[Mooncatt]

:o :o :o a homing fish eh, how the hell do you get away from that? use harsh language?

[AVGWarhawk]

:o :o :o a homing fish eh, how the hell do you get away from that? use harsh language?
You don't Sir. The Kaleun only hoped the FIDO would not pick them up. Sometime they did not, often they did. ASW in the later years was VERY effective. I just read a book Hunter/Killers about the CVE. The aircraft were very good and very aggressive. Radar/sonar/sonobouy/FIDO/DC. They meant business and business was good.

[Mooncatt]

well if anything comes out with that in it we`re screwed then lol

[AVGWarhawk]

well if anything comes out with that in it we`re screwed then lol

There was attempts to make it work but not looking to good.

[Mooncatt]

yeah i can imagine it wouldnt be easy to add something like that.

[immortal44]

I get the distinct impression that we really have it easy in the game.

The allies knowing your position thanks to a status report would certainly change this (I'm not sure if it is in the game?).

[AVGWarhawk]

I get the distinct impression that we really have it easy in the game.

The allies knowing your position thanks to a status report would certainly change this (I'm not sure if it is in the game?).

I believe this is modelled into the game. The book "Hunter/Killers US Escort Carriers in the Battle of the Atlantic" By William T Y'Blood. I have read quite a few of the u-boat books and I wanted to see what the Allies were up to. These guys had a lot of tools at their disposal to hunt and kill the boats. They were damn good at it. The CVE were made out of oil tanker hulls. Plenty of room for plane/ammo/fuel. In 1943, 27 boats sunk or captured. 1944, 22 boats sunk or captured. 1945 6 boats sunk or captured. Having enigma codes was also part of the arsenal. It is a good book and I recommend it highly. So in essence, if we had these bad boys after us as well, it would be quite ugly. Fortune for us GWX DD are good and hopefully overcome what is missing. I think it does it quite well.

[High Voltage]

Also, Herbert Werner comes across as kind of a crybaby. He does something a military officer should never do, and that is blame something that goes wrong on someone else.

He blames his XO for the boat getting sunk by hitting a mine in harbor.
He blames his LI for not being able to keep proper trim.
He blames his Rosen and Doenitz for having to go to sea, despite extreme danger from Allied Radar.
are you serious?

his xo took the boat out without permission and got a of couple men killed.

his LI was obviously a new recruit and was not trained properly enough to keep the
boat trimmed.

Wouldnt you be pissed too if all your friends were dying?

a cry baby

wow

wowww

I agree with you 100% Cobalt.
Weber's XO bent the boat and killed 2 men, His LI had no business being on any boat without being qualified to execute this most basic and necessary of manoeuvres, and staying alive was hard enough already without being sent out on suicidal missions by officers too far removed to properly grasp/care about what was going on.

Imagine you've survived long enough for all of your friends to die, you realize at a certain point that the war is lost, you keep getting sent out on aimless patrols, guided by dangerous instructions, unable to properly defend yourself, and you can't even count on your crew to properly trim the boat.:down:

On a related note, Peter "Ali" Cremer's U-333 is an equally fascinating read, and a must for any aspiring Kaleun.:know: