did they know?

[Phil]

did the men know that when they went out that they probably werent coming back especially in 44 and 45

[azn_132]

In SH3?

[_Seth_]

did the men know that when they went out that they probably werent coming back especially in 44 and 45
Yes, probably... The kriegsmarine enrolled very young men in those days, with insufficent training due to the heavy losses of personell in the Atlantic. These were "ready" to die for their fatherland, and become "heroes". Even Admiral Dönitz, who lost both of his sons in WWII, understood the reality in late 44-45..

[High Voltage]

The veteran U-boat commanders all knew that their numbers were dwindling rapidly, and that the new replacements were being "fed to the wolves", but for the most part their spirit was unbroken, and many of them believed Doenitz's promises that new boats were just "a few weeks away", that new schnorkels, "bugs", balloons and other improvements would once again swing the battles in their favour...:nope:

[melnibonian]

did the men know that when they went out that they probably werent coming back especially in 44 and 45
Unfortunatelly they did. In the book Iron Coffins there are some really vivid accounts of people and their feelings during that period.

[jasonsagert]

This is an interesting point. I was looking for information about what kind of sailors became U-Boat men and came across this interesting article written by Timothy Mulligan a couple of weeks ago. It's entitled "German U-boat Crews in WWII: Sociology of an Elite". You can find it in The Journal of Military History Vol. 56 no. 2 pp. 261-281.

Anyway, he discusses reasons why the U-Boat arm of the Kriegsmarine continued to fight with such enthusiasim even after suffering such severe defeats.

If you don't have access to the journal, I can email you the .pdf. Just PM me.

And please excuse my spelling errors--I'm a horrible speller and and it embarasses me :damn:.

Cheers,

J

[jasonsagert]

Looking through the Mulligan article again, it has some interesting stats on the age distribution, geographic origin, and civilian occupation of the U-Boat crews he was able to piece together.

Here's the table showing the civilian occupation of the U-boat crews he studied (edit: I don't remember his methodology and I'm too lazy to read the article again right now)--clearly he was only able to gather this particular info on a limited number of crew members (edit:again, I don't remember if this was a random sample or just a limited sampe size, again, I'm too lazy to re-read the article right now), however, it's still an interesting table.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/jasonsagert/U-Boatinfo.jpg

Pretty interesting stuff really. If you want the .pdf, let me know.

J

[Captain Nemo]

did the men know that when they went out that they probably werent coming back especially in 44 and 45
Yes, probably... The kriegsmarine enrolled very young men in those days, with insufficent training due to the heavy losses of personell in the Atlantic. These were "ready" to die for their fatherland, and become "heroes". Even Admiral Dönitz, who lost both of his sons in WWII, understood the reality in late 44-45..

Admiral Donitz indeed understood the reality in 1944-45 and that the u-boat in its current form was obsolete and unable to make a difference to the outcome of WWII. Even though Donitz was not found guilty of war crimes at Nuremberg because he had conducted the war at sea appropriately (Chester Nimitz was called as witness for the defence to say that Donitz had conducted the u-boat war along similar lines to the US submarine war in the Pacific), it could be argued that he needlessly sent thousands of u-boat crewmen to their deaths. Not a war crime in itself, but perhaps something that needs to be taken into account when assessing Donitz.

With regard to the Kriegsmarine enlisting young men in 44-45, I'm not sure this was actually the case (read the Clay Blair books), however, no matter what age and the amount of training the crew received, allied ASW was so effective at this time it probably wouldn't have made much difference.

Nemo

[jasonsagert]

In deed Captain Nemo, the average age of U-Boat crews were older than that of the US Navy from the same time period.

And my response to Donitz sending men to their death--certainly not a war crime. Military commanders always have to make those decisions. In "Iron Coffins", the excuse to send Werner to sea again is given to him frankly by his commanders--you have limited chance for success, but as long as there is a U-Boat threat, the allies will be using resources to search for the U-Boats--which takes resources away from other allied opperations.

While war crimes are a sticky business, Donitz didn't even come close to committing one by sending U-Boats to sea as sacrifices for, what he saw as, the broader military goal.

Of course, just my opinioin.

J

[Morts]

i think they did know
after alot of u-boats didn return to port i think they would start to notice:rotfl:

[jasonsagert]

Also Captain Nemo, Donitz was found guilty of war crimes at Nuremburg--just not for the U-Boat war. His defence attorney actually called a US naval officer to testify that the US prosecuted the submarine warefare in the pacific exactly as the germans had.

BUT, Donitz was convicted of other war crimes (someones head had to role for what happened--so the mind set was and usually is), however, he killed himself the day before he was to be hung.

J

edit: my poor grammar--probably didn't catch it all

[melnibonian]

Doenitz didn't kill himself and was not convicted for the same war crimes as the Nazi Leaders. He got 10 years and died in Germany in 1981

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_D%C3%B6nitz

[jasonsagert]

melnibonian, you're absolutley correct.

Ah jeez, when will I learn to get away from my keyboard when i'm drunk--I was thinking of Georing :oops:

Ahahahah...I love laughing at myself. And now let's all join in:rotfl:

Cheers,

J

[melnibonian]

melnibonian, you're absolutley correct.

Ah jeez, when will I learn to get away from my keyboard when i'm drunk--I was thinking of Georing :oops:

Ahahahah...I love laughing at myself. And now let's all join in:rotfl:

Cheers,

J
No worries mate we all have days (and some of us nights as well) like these;) :p :rotfl: :rotfl: :up:

[Woof1701]

Your grammar is excused, but your half knowledge isn't. ;) Dönitz didn't commit suicide and he wasn't sentenced to death but ten years prison for the "Laconia directive" which prohibted uboats to help survivors. This directive was only introduced because American planes had attacked and almost sunk German uboats helping survivors under a flag of truce flying the Red Cross banner and sending out uncoded radio messages. In my opinion Dönitz did the right thing there. If you take the accounts of the fast troop ships which weren't allowed to stop for survivors either. Queen Mary even rammed and sank an American escort ship and wasn't allowed to stop helping the survivors.

[melnibonian]

Your grammar is excused, but your half knowledge isn't. ;) Dönitz didn't commit suicide and he wasn't sentenced to death but ten years prison for the "Laconia directive" which prohibted uboats to help survivors. This directive was only introduced because American planes had attacked and almost sunk German uboats helping survivors under a flag of truce flying the Red Cross banner and sending out uncoded radio messages. In my opinion Dönitz did the right thing there. If you take the accounts of the fast troop ships which weren't allowed to stop for survivors either. Queen Mary even rammed and sank an American escort ship and wasn't allowed to stop helping the survivors.
So he should write 100 times then the following phrase

'I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat History again':p ;) :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Woof1701]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Good idea. :know:
Why do I now have the picture of a guy on a ladder in my mind who's writing "Romani ite domum" on a city wall?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f3/Romani_ite_domum.jpg

[melnibonian]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Good idea. :know:
Why do I now have the picture of a guy on a ladder in my mind who's writing "Romani ite domum" on a city wall?
People call Romanus go the house?;) :p :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Classic:up:

[jasonsagert]

Woof1701: ah come on, I realized my mistake (if you read the posts a bit further). And now it's there for all of us to laugh at :D

BUT, that said, I've just started writing.

I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian.
I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian.
I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian.
I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian........

100 times.

:rotfl:

[melnibonian]

@jasonsagert

Since we're in a 'funny' mood, if you don't like the above stated message you can write 100 times instead the following one

'I will NEVER ask Bernard for Historical References';) :D :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

your choice mate;) :D :up:

EDIT: Since you've already wrote the punishment you're OK. Now get on that brand new IXC and go and sink someone;) :D :up: :up:

[jasonsagert]

What? Bernard isn't a reliable historical reference?

I have a book in front of my right now entitled, "The Kriegsmarine During the Second World War", authored by Bernard. You mean this isn't a realiable source?

On page 210, Bernard states that he actually sank more U-Boats than the allies. He states that he did this because he felt "bad" for the Tommies. How can this not be true? It's in print for christ sake!!

[melnibonian]

What? Bernard isn't a reliable historical reference?

I have a book in front of my right now entitled, "The Kriegsmarine During the Second World War", authored by Bernard. You mean this isn't a realiable source?

On page 210, Bernard states that he actually sank more U-Boats than the allies. He states that he did this because he felt "bad" for the Tommies. How can this not be true? It's in print for christ sake!!
:o :hmm: :D :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Morts]

What? Bernard isn't a reliable historical reference?

I have a book in front of my right now entitled, "The Kriegsmarine During the Second World War", authored by Bernard. You mean this isn't a realiable source?

On page 210, Bernard states that he actually sank more U-Boats than the allies. He states that he did this because he felt "bad" for the Tommies. How can this not be true? It's in print for christ sake!!
:o :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Woof1701]

Woof1701: ah come on, I realized my mistake (if you read the posts a bit further). And now it's there for all of us to laugh at :D

BUT, that said, I've just started writing.

I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian.
I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian.
I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian.
I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian........

100 times.

:rotfl:

I was still writing the post while you realised it :) I let it stand anyway. BTW I'm sure you're cheating and wrote it only once and copied the other three in there. ;)

[jasonsagert]

Woof1701: You, my friend, are correct. Guilty as charged. I loves me the copy/paste feature of these new fangled typing machines. But don't think it's trivial to do it 100 times. That's enough of a punishment within itself.

and for a sense of closure on this, here are the final four copy and pastes af the 100 I've done (which I copied and pasted to this thread)...wow, I'll never make that mistake again.

I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian.
I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian.
I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian.
I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian

:rotfl:

[Captain Nemo]

Your grammar is excused, but your half knowledge isn't. ;) Dönitz didn't commit suicide and he wasn't sentenced to death but ten years prison for the "Laconia directive" which prohibted uboats to help survivors.

Donitz was charged with being involved with waging aggressive war, conspiracy to wage aggressive war, and crimes against the laws of war. Specifically, he was charged with waging unrestricted submarine warfare and as you rightly point out Woof1701, with issuing an order after the Laconia incident not to rescue survivors from ships attacked by submarine.

As I mentioned earlier, as one of the witnesses in his defense, Donitz produced an affidavit from Admiral Chester Nimitz who testified that the US had used unrestricted warfare as a tactic in the Pacific and that American submarines did not rescue survivors in situations where their own safety was in question. Despite this he was found guilty of "crimes against peace", for which he was sentenced to, and served, 10 years in prison. Of all the defendants at Nuremberg, the verdict against Donitz was probably the most controversial. The Soviet judge actually voted for his acquittal on all charges, and Donitz always maintained that he did nothing that his Allied counterparts weren't doing.

The point I was making earlier, was that Donitz knew by 1944 that the u-boat had lost the Battle of the Atlantic and Allied ASW was sinking u-boats at an alarming rate. Despite this, Donitz continued sending u-boats and their crews out to sea to fight a battle that had already been lost, which resulted in thousands of u-boat men needlessly losing their lives. It is this that should be taken into consideration, when assessing the integrity of Donitz himself.

Nemo

[jasonsagert]

Captain Nemo I agree that in restrospect, the fact that Donitz sent u-boat crews to sea during 44' seems like possible (if not total) negligence on his part. But, in your assessment, what are you taking into consideration? Simply historical hindsight?

What other issues/pressures/justifications could have existed for his actions? I can't believe that it was as simple as, "Meh, I know they have no chance, but I'm sending them anyway".

As I stated in my previous post, I thought one of the justifications was to keep enemy forces tied down with fighting the u-boats--even if they were sacrificed.

I don't know. I'm curious about your and others opinions about this.

J

[AVGWarhawk]

They had known just like the B-24/B-17 crews knew that statistically the odds were not in their favor.

[Morts]

Woof1701: You, my friend, are correct. Guilty as charged. I loves me the copy/paste feature of these new fangled typing machines. But don't think it's trivial to do it 100 times. That's enough of a punishment within itself.

and for a sense of closure on this, here are the final four copy and pastes af the 100 I've done (which I copied and pasted to this thread)...wow, I'll never make that mistake again.

I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian.
I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian.
I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian.
I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian

:rotfl:

hahaha:rotfl:

[Captain Nemo]

Captain Nemo I agree that in restrospect, the fact that Donitz sent u-boat crews to sea during 44' seems like possible (if not total) negligence on his part. But, in your assessment, what are you taking into consideration? Simply historical hindsight?

What other issues/pressures/justifications could have existed for his actions? I can't believe that it was as simple as, "Meh, I know they have no chance, but I'm sending them anyway".

As I stated in my previous post, I thought one of the justifications was to keep enemy forces tied down with fighting the u-boats--even if they were sacrificed.

I don't know. I'm curious about your and others opinions about this.

J

Yes it is easy to make judgements in retrospect. You're right in your view that part of the strategy was to keep the Allied surface fleet tied up escorting convoys so that the Allies couldn't redeploy them in other theatres of war. Hitler was also paranoid about an Allied invasion of Norway hence several u-boats were deployed in those waters and the Barents Sea to attack arctic convoys. Donitz privately thought that an Allied invasion of Norway was unlikely and the deployment of u-boats in the arctic a waste of u-boat resources. The Mediterranean was another area where Hitler insisted on keeping a force of u-boats to help Rommel in North Africa. In fact they made very little impact. It was Donitz's view that the North Atlantic was where all u-boats should be deployed to have the maximum effect on convoys and supplies to Britain. At no time during the war was the level of u-boats in the North Atlantic to Donitz's satisfaction because of Hitler's insistence that they should be deployed elsewhere.

To a degree I think Donitz was a yes man and dedicated Nazi so even though he knew that sending out u-boats towards the end of the war meant sending thousands of sailors to the bottom he did it to appease Hitler.

Nemo

[Captain Nemo]

They had known just like the B-24/B-17 crews knew that statistically the odds were not in their favor.

Yes, but at least they were achieving an objective. The u-boats achieved relatively nothing.

Nemo

[Woof1701]

Woof1701: You, my friend, are correct. Guilty as charged. I loves me the copy/paste feature of these new fangled typing machines. But don't think it's trivial to do it 100 times. That's enough of a punishment within itself.

and for a sense of closure on this, here are the final four copy and pastes af the 100 I've done (which I copied and pasted to this thread)...wow, I'll never make that mistake again.

I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian.
I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian.
I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian.
I will not make a mistake about my Commander in Chief and I will read the U-Boat history agian

:rotfl:

:rotfl:

[melnibonian]

To a degree I think Donitz was a yes man and dedicated Nazi so even though he knew that sending out u-boats towards the end of the war meant sending thousands of sailors to the bottom he did it to appease Hitler.

I don't agree with this to be honest. Nazi or not Donitz was also a professional soldier (and a really good one as well) so all his decisions were primarily based on sound strategic arguments. I agree there was a level of policy making as well, since Hitler was always intervening and altering the decisions of his Generals, but that doesn't mean Donitz was a yes man. Kaitel yes he was one. Donitz not. I feel that almost all Germans (especially the ones in High ranks that had access to loads of information) knew from 1942 onwards that the war was basically lost. Because they were Germans though and had the Prussian mentality of Honour-Country-Duty they were keen to stand and fight or die. The same applied with the U-Boat crews and their high command.

[Woof1701]

Captain Nemo I agree that in restrospect, the fact that Donitz sent u-boat crews to sea during 44' seems like possible (if not total) negligence on his part. But, in your assessment, what are you taking into consideration? Simply historical hindsight?

What other issues/pressures/justifications could have existed for his actions? I can't believe that it was as simple as, "Meh, I know they have no chance, but I'm sending them anyway".

As I stated in my previous post, I thought one of the justifications was to keep enemy forces tied down with fighting the u-boats--even if they were sacrificed.

I don't know. I'm curious about your and others opinions about this.

J

Yes it is easy to make judgements in retrospect. You're right in your view that part of the strategy was to keep the Allied surface fleet tied up escorting convoys so that the Allies couldn't redeploy them in other theatres of war. Hitler was also paranoid about an Allied invasion of Norway hence several u-boats were deployed in those waters and the Barents Sea to attack arctic convoys. Donitz privately thought that an Allied invasion of Norway was unlikely and the deployment of u-boats in the arctic a waste of u-boat resources. The Mediterranean was another area where Hitler insisted on keeping a force of u-boats to help Rommel in North Africa. In fact they made very little impact. It was Donitz's view that the North Atlantic was where all u-boats should be deployed to have the maximum effect on convoys and supplies to Britain. At no time during the war was the level of u-boats in the North Atlantic to Donitz's satisfaction because of Hitler's insistence that they should be deployed elsewhere.

To a degree I think Donitz was a yes man and dedicated Nazi so even though he knew that sending out u-boats towards the end of the war meant sending thousands of sailors to the bottom he did it to appease Hitler.

Nemo

Difficult to judge. In my opinion if Dönitz had been a dedicated Nazi and a yes man, there would have been some things differently.
First of all Dönitz always tried to stay away from Berlin as much as possible, since he saw himself more as a soldier than a politician, and thus saw his duty to stay close to his men and do his job.
Second. You normally try not to say "NO" to a man like Hitler too often, because it may get you killed. In my opinion he often tried to walk a thin line to improve his men's conditions and equipment. This obviously included giving his consent to things he didn't support. Nevertheless he opposed Hitler in several occasions when it came to military issues. With little effect though. In contrast his sparring partner Göring was just filling his own pockets, creeping up Adolf's ass and was inebt at commanding the Luftwaffe and even jealous and uncooperative if he had to support either the Wehrmacht or the Kriegsmarine.
Third: By Mid 1944 it didn't matter on what front you were fighting if you were German. The Allies had air superiority, were advancing on the South from Italy, West from France and East from Russia towards Germany, and the supply of raw materials was at an all-time low. It's remarkable, that there were enough resources left to even put boats to sea at all. Some Luftwaffe squadrons couldn't even lift off for lack of fuel.
Fourth: He was practically the only high-ranking officer who had the men following him dedicatedly till his death in 1982.
Fifth: Dönitz was made FdU by Admiral Raeder, after serving as a cruiser captain and having served on uboats in WWI. What made him ideal for the job was the fact that he had a concept for building up a uboat force and a tactic to defeat the convoy system. Most other high ranking officers including Raeder and Göring were politically active with the NSDAP long berfore Hitler came to power.

If you see Dönitz as a dedicated Nazi you also have to see every major military leader as Nazi.

[Sailor Steve]

What? Bernard isn't a reliable historical reference?

I have a book in front of my right now entitled, "The Kriegsmarine During the Second World War", authored by Bernard. You mean this isn't a realiable source?

On page 210, Bernard states that he actually sank more U-Boats than the allies. He states that he did this because he felt "bad" for the Tommies. How can this not be true? It's in print for christ sake!!
A little known fact concerning this story is that in 1978 an attempt was made to make a movie out of Bernard Dummkopf's book. Several u-boat replicas were built, but every single one sank under mysterious circumstances. All of the production crew and half the actors came down with food poisoning; something to do with herr Dummkopf advising the catering crew. In fact, things started going so badly that the producers finally pulled the plug on the whole project, bought up all the footage and burned it, swore the actors to silence and said that if any word of this leaked out they would "sue everybody and everything in sight".

I only know this because my second cousin's sister-in-law's uncle told me the story while drunk. Of course I can't prove any of this.

[CaptainAsh]

Sending soldier to death is I suppose the duty of any officer.
Sending them to sure death? well... why not. The only question was "does it worth it on the stategic point?"
As long as german had u-boat at seas, allied spent a lot of resource to deal with them. Life against resource. That was the deal... nothing else than a diversion.

[_Seth_]

What? Bernard isn't a reliable historical reference?

I have a book in front of my right now entitled, "The Kriegsmarine During the Second World War", authored by Bernard. You mean this isn't a realiable source?

On page 210, Bernard states that he actually sank more U-Boats than the allies. He states that he did this because he felt "bad" for the Tommies. How can this not be true? It's in print for christ sake!! A little known fact concerning this story is that in 1978 an attempt was made to make a movie out of Bernard Dummkopf's book. Several u-boat replicas were built, but every single one sank under mysterious circumstances. All of the production crew and half the actors came down with food poisoning; something to do with herr Dummkopf advising the catering crew. In fact, things started going so badly that the producers finally pulled the plug on the whole project, bought up all the footage and burned it, swore the actors to silence and said that if any word of this leaked out they would "sue everybody and everything in sight".

I only know this because my second cousin's sister-in-law's uncle told me the story while drunk. Of course I can't prove any of this.:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::ro tfl:

[High Voltage]

I think that sending his men back out on patrol iwith broken, antiquated weapons and defenses was a choice made out of necessity and not one he took any pride in. Once D-Day got underway however, not only did he send a handful of subs to try and disrupt the attack/disembarcation (most without schnorkels - therefore sitting ducks), but he ordered them to sacrifice themselves by ramming once they were out of torpedos, and that is something I could never agree with.
Strategy calls for falling back or retreating when outnumbered/overpowered, and at some point you have to recognize that you have either lost the battle/war and that it is pointless/counter-productive to keep oredering your men to a certain death.

just my opinion...

[Morts]

What? Bernard isn't a reliable historical reference?

I have a book in front of my right now entitled, "The Kriegsmarine During the Second World War", authored by Bernard. You mean this isn't a realiable source?

On page 210, Bernard states that he actually sank more U-Boats than the allies. He states that he did this because he felt "bad" for the Tommies. How can this not be true? It's in print for christ sake!!
A little known fact concerning this story is that in 1978 an attempt was made to make a movie out of Bernard Dummkopf's book. Several u-boat replicas were built, but every single one sank under mysterious circumstances. All of the production crew and half the actors came down with food poisoning; something to do with herr Dummkopf advising the catering crew. In fact, things started going so badly that the producers finally pulled the plug on the whole project, bought up all the footage and burned it, swore the actors to silence and said that if any word of this leaked out they would "sue everybody and everything in sight".

I only know this because my second cousin's sister-in-law's uncle told me the story while drunk. Of course I can't prove any of this.

hahahahahaha:rotfl: :rotfl:

[KrvKpt. Falke]

In last months of WW2 allied air bombing were devastating to germans cities. As we know aircraft was the biggest u-boat enemy. So - if Donitz would stop sending his u-boats "to certain death", high number of bombers used against uboats would be used against german cities. Besides, since mid 1943 (or even since 1942) u-boats were de facto only weapon that could "hurt" allies. Donitz certainly knew that battle of atlantic is lost, but germans submarines couldn't just leave Atlantic. Why? Because of strategic goals - tiding up of enemy forces, especially aircraft. Yes, hundreds of u-boats crews for thousends of civilians in german cities...



About Donitz as "dedicated nazi". I think it wasnt so black and white. When i was less educated (many years ago :) ) i was wondering how it was possible that entire nation become nazi. Now i know about Germanys political and economy situation after first world war which helped Hitler gain power. There were also communists. Germans had choice: nazis or reds. For people like Donitz it was no choice: only Hitler. Try to imagine yourselfs and your country in that situation...i'm no pro-nazi or something, but if i were living in Germany in 20's/30's i would be a nazi. Back then being a "nazi" wasnt something nagative: some english officer who wasnt satisfied with his government politics, told Donitz (in 1930's): "Give us Hitler!". Europe was not only scared, but also amazed of what Hitler done in Germany.


About Laconia incident and Nuremburg trials: in 1960's some american general (cant remember name) said that he ordered to attack uboats which were helping survivors from Laconia and he said something like: "we didnt know there were any British, but even if we knew it wouldnt matter to us, as it was war...". No comment...
Also Grosadmiral was sentenced for no reason. It was just vengeance.



PS. Could you, please, tell me how to make this funny german "s" on my keyboard (like in "groSadmiral)? Thanks :)
PS2: Sorry if i made some mistakes (grammar etc.) - english isnt my native language.

[johan_d]

A very good post Falke, if one wants to understand WW2, start with WW1.

[Jimbuna]

Travelling with my lap top right now so no time to research my books at home but is it not the case that at the Nuremburg war trials Doenitz ran the risk of receiving the death penalty for giving the order for 'unrestricted submarine warfare' :hmm:
However an American Admiral, Nimitz or some other testified in his defence stating that he gave a similar order to the US subs against the Japanese....therefore helping Doenitz from such a penalty :hmm:

[Redbear]

Yes, they did know. As mentioned earlier, the book 'Iron Coffins' shows this clearly. I also read Donitz's book 'Ten Years and Ten Days', and it's interesting to note that they kept going out because they were trying to save as many civilians and ground troops as possible. According to the Admiral, the allies refused to enter into a seperate peace with the west, and the Germans knew the Russians would kill many soldiers and civilians as the moved west. The Germans had folks streaming from east to the western zones, and by keeping the pressure on with U-Boats, they felt thet could divert allied resources from the front, therefore allowing more time to keep the escape lanes open.