Severe weather tactics

[scalelokt]

Hi all, just wondering if you would share with me your tactics for attacking convoys in severe weather (zero visibility). It seems to me that you are actually safer, at least in some ways, carrying out the attack on the surface instead of submerged. For one thing you need to be manueverable since you cant see targets more than about 350 meters away. For another thing submerged the excorts can hear you unless you are really slow, on the surface you can go flank and no one has any idea where you are. The downside of course is that if a DD appears out of the fog you are pretty much S.O.L. So how do you all go about it? I pretty much stay on the surface and race from one target to the next, two torps a piece and then get out of there. Sometimes I run into a DD and meet a pretty ugly fate, but usually I get away with no troubles at all and a huge amount of tonnage. I'd love to hear what advice you all have though in these situations. Seems like it is ALWAYS storming on my patrols.

Which brings up another quick question, how do you all feel about the realism of the storms in GWX? I dont mind that its storming a lot, I think thats probably realistic for the most part. My problem is how limited your visibility is. I dont know a thing about sea storms so I'm only theorizing. But I have lived by the beach before and I remember being able to see ships from a very far distance even in a good storm. In GWX you cant see an enormous ship until you are on top of it. In real life I would think that would have to be an all out hurricane for that kind of terrible visibility. What do you all think? Anyone know of a mod or option within GWX to tweak the visibility?

Oh and one last thing, GWX is hands down the most incredible mod I have ever seen for a game, and I thought the mods for Oblivion were cool. GWX is absolutly amazing, much respect to the developers.

[mookiemookie]

I usually let them go if visibility is THAT bad. The risks to the boat are too great. Like you said, having a DD surprise you only 300 meters away, or running the risk of being rammed by a huge cargo ship that you didn't see until it was too late.

There's plenty of ships in the ocean. No need to risk everything for one convoy.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Which brings up another quick question, how do you all feel about the realism of the storms in GWX? I dont mind that its storming a lot, I think thats probably realistic for the most part. My problem is how limited your visibility is. I dont know a thing about sea storms so I'm only theorizing. But I have lived by the beach before and I remember being able to see ships from a very far distance even in a good storm. In GWX you cant see an enormous ship until you are on top of it. In real life I would think that would have to be an all out hurricane for that kind of terrible visibility. What do you all think? Anyone know of a mod or option within GWX to tweak the visibility?



If you read up on it, especially the Atlantic Theatre the weather played a significant role in the war. The weather would be so bad, including visibility, that convoys would drift literally miles apart. Take a look at my sig, the writing is from '' Iron Coffins ", makes reference to the weather.

[Keelbuster]

I tend to agree with Mookie. It's usually not worth the risk. Although if I can't resist (sometimes I'll be shadowing a convoy for days hoping the weather will let up) and I have enough data on the convoy's course, i'll plot an intercept on a convoy in a storm. I'll approach such that I expect to go right through the center of it at a perpendicular course. I stay at periscope depth so that i can dive if a collision is imminent. By drifting through the convoy, I might get lucky and get a 90 abeam shot on something and take it out. Or i might get nothing. Bad weather = bad acoustics, and hence evading is easy if you're detected. I don't go for anything more aggressive than that - I definitely don't go in surfaced. That's suicide. Escorts can see through fog with radar. However, in high seas, I find they are virtually deaf - especially if you are at periscope depth.

Kb

[Brag]

I use tactics similar to those of Keelbuster. NEVER on the surface. There is enough bad stuff out there without asking for trouble. :smug:

[Corsair]

I have only one tactic in this kind of weather : stay under where it doesn't shake the crew, surface only for reloading, take out the card decks, craps, chess, backgammon, etc.. and wait for better times.:D
From my experience at sea, I think the most unreal thing in SH3 is having heavy fog with 30 knots winds. When you have heavy fog at sea, you usually have no wind or very little at the same time.

[scalelokt]

Thanks for the comments everyone. I know its risky to go in surfaced against a convoy, even in a strong storm. From a survival standpoint it makes more sense to either just let the convoy go or at best try to attack submerged and see if you get some lucky hits. I guess I'm trying to find a way to use the storm to my advantage, even though all signs point to it being a very dangerous scenario. If the weather is that bad for what seems like a pretty large portion of the game, I was hoping to find a creative solution. Maybe its a lost cause, I'll keep working on it. At the very least its good for some stimulating conversation, thanks for the replies everyone!

The way I see it so far, the advantages of stormy weather (at least eariler in the war) are:
1. You can travel at high speeds surfaced with a low risk of detection, which is all but impossible submerged.
2. DDs are quite a bit slower in bad weather
3. DDs detection equipment wont work as well
4. Ships can be sunk with one torp instead of two or three
5. If a DD does come up on you the bad weather makes it pretty easy to escape assuming you dive quickly enough

The disadvantages are:
1. Visibility is so low that often times when you spot a ship they are already too close for torpedos
2. Cant use the deck gun
3. DDs can sneak up on you and its too late to dive when they appear in front of you (this is the biggest disadvantage of course)

Right now I'm thinking a submerged attack is the safest for sure, however a surfaced attack will yield more tonnage but with much higher risk. I guess no matter how you look at it, submerged attack is the way to go. I have to tell you though, its a lot of fun cruising around at high speed in a convoy taking out ship after ship while the DDs are hopelessly lost trying to find you. The other night I actually had a DD firing at their own ships because there were merchants between me and them. But the point isnt just to get tonnage, its also to survive so I think you all are right, its just too risky to attack like that. I've only been killed once donig it, but I think I've been pretty lucky.

[Rykaird]

For whatever reason merchants can still haul butt in the worst seas - a full 9 knots in what felt like a hurricane! I sunk one last night in near zero visibility by going flank on the surface, directly behind her. I could barely catch her even at flank, given the rough seas, so no way I could run far ahead enough to get an intercept. (I love how the game models my sub slowing down when the props come out of the water as she porpoises her way through the waves).

Even though I was surfaced there was so much water pouring over the bow planes the hydrophones still worked, so I got directly on her tail and just chased her down, and eventually put one into her stern at 500m.

If there was one big prize in the convoy this might still work - by shooting her in the stern you disable her props, and as I have been informed, the escort will eventually abandon her, and you can come back at your leisure and finish the kill. So it might still be a good tactic to come blazing in on the surface if there's a great single target you want.

I'll give this a try, and if you don't hear back from me, it's because it didn't work and I'm fish food.

[Heibges]

I usually try to follow the convoy in bad weather until in breaks. But I have followed them for 4 days before, and then abandoned the chase when the weather stayed severe.

But I have found it is pretty much a crapshoot to attack a convoy in extremely poor visibility.

Not only are you in danger from escorts, or even merchants coming out of the fog, but it is impossible to gather target data under these conditions.

[desirableroasted]

I usually let them go if visibility is THAT bad. The risks to the boat are too great. Like you said, having a DD surprise you only 300 meters away, or running the risk of being rammed by a huge cargo ship that you didn't see until it was too late.

There's plenty of ships in the ocean. No need to risk everything for one convoy.

Huge cargo ship? Friend, I was rammed by the Nelson the other night in a storm. Do not pass Go, do not collect....

[mookiemookie]

I usually let them go if visibility is THAT bad. The risks to the boat are too great. Like you said, having a DD surprise you only 300 meters away, or running the risk of being rammed by a huge cargo ship that you didn't see until it was too late.

There's plenty of ships in the ocean. No need to risk everything for one convoy.

Huge cargo ship? Friend, I was rammed by the Nelson the other night in a storm. Do not pass Go, do not collect....

At least you went out with style? :D

[danurve]

Well if your hungry for a kill and the conditions stink, I have used a tactic I found usefull when I misjudge tracking and wind up behind the target searching with hydrophone.

Get in behind the merchant, I mean directly behind him "0" if you can, then match course and try to gain slightly untill your about 350m astern (depending on visibility). Then I use a 2m shallow running steamer set to impact and hopefully take out the merchants screw - ability to manuver. This typicaly won't sink the target so you have to manuver for a finishing shot. Much easier on a slow or sitting duck.

[scalelokt]

Anyone here been able to wreak havoc on a convoy in terrible weather by firing torpedoes submerged using only hydrophone readings? I havent tried firing using hydrophone data only, but I'm sure its possible. I figure if you watch long enough to get the speed of the target, from there you should be able to take a decent guess of the AOB and distance using the hydrophone map readings. Then fire a spread to allow for a bit of miscalculation. I'll bet that would be a really satisfying kill if you pulled it off! :up:

[danurve]

Just as a follow-up here's a thumb to a screen of the exact tactic I mentioned.
please excuse the quality of the edited image as this entire patrol so far in line with this topic has been crudy weather, and at night
http://www.huntny.us/sh3/u49_14/32_843_b_t.jpg (http://www.huntny.us/sh3/u49_14/32_843_b.jpg)

U49 VIIB on patrol I botched an intercept but got in behind and UZO`ed a nice Cargo. Worked out too because just before the hit the watch crew reported "ship spotted". I'm thinking well duh, but it was actually another Cargo on an opposite course. So with Cargo(1) now reduced to a crawl I intercepted the 2nd ship and UZO`ed it as well, finished it off with the deck gun, then returned to a marked stationary fat target. A dozen or so shots to the waterline and she's all done.

Kind of goes to show you never know what will pop out on what you might be thinking as a boring old patrol, 12:30 at night, eyes getting heavy, thinking what am I doing. Has she called for help? Will an armed trawler or DD be charging in?
Bring it the frick on :arrgh!:

But I did have to get to sleep, work and all, not to mention more snow in the last 3 days then we have had in the last month to deal with in the morning.

[Iron Budokan]

Very early in the war you can attack with zero visibility on the surface, but later when the Allies get radar it's a non-starter, imo. Sometimes it can be worth it. Last night I hit a Fiji Class Light Cruiser and sunk her in zero visibility. She never knew what hit her and I cranked up the engines on my IXB and slipped away in the dense fog.... :up:

[danurve]

Yes, it is an early war tactic for the most part. But alot of fun :up:

I have no doubt this will change.

[Gezoes]

Thanks for the comments everyone. I know its risky to go in surfaced against a convoy, even in a strong storm. From a survival standpoint it makes more sense to either just let the convoy go or at best try to attack submerged and see if you get some lucky hits. I guess I'm trying to find a way to use the storm to my advantage, even though all signs point to it being a very dangerous scenario. If the weather is that bad for what seems like a pretty large portion of the game, I was hoping to find a creative solution. Maybe its a lost cause, I'll keep working on it. At the very least its good for some stimulating conversation, thanks for the replies everyone!

The way I see it so far, the advantages of stormy weather (at least eariler in the war) are:
1. You can travel at high speeds surfaced with a low risk of detection, which is all but impossible submerged.
2. DDs are quite a bit slower in bad weather
3. DDs detection equipment wont work as well
4. Ships can be sunk with one torp instead of two or three
5. If a DD does come up on you the bad weather makes it pretty easy to escape assuming you dive quickly enough

The disadvantages are:
1. Visibility is so low that often times when you spot a ship they are already too close for torpedos
2. Cant use the deck gun
3. DDs can sneak up on you and its too late to dive when they appear in front of you (this is the biggest disadvantage of course)

Right now I'm thinking a submerged attack is the safest for sure, however a surfaced attack will yield more tonnage but with much higher risk. I guess no matter how you look at it, submerged attack is the way to go. I have to tell you though, its a lot of fun cruising around at high speed in a convoy taking out ship after ship while the DDs are hopelessly lost trying to find you. The other night I actually had a DD firing at their own ships because there were merchants between me and them. But the point isnt just to get tonnage, its also to survive so I think you all are right, its just too risky to attack like that. I've only been killed once donig it, but I think I've been pretty lucky.
Excellent observations there, it all depends on your style, boat, crew and weather I suppose :up: And I agree ofcourse, it is risky. Points 1 and 5, where the advantages are concerned, are key for my surfaced attack in storms at night. I come in at high speed on the surface, fully benefiting from my steady UZO, and I dive quicker once I have fired my eels. Not unlike the convoy attack in Das Boat, angriff fangt an!! :D

At the very least it's quite exciting ;) Fuer eins bis vier!! ALAAARMMMM!!! :arrgh!:

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Anyone here been able to wreak havoc on a convoy in terrible weather by firing torpedoes submerged using only hydrophone readings? I havent tried firing using hydrophone data only, but I'm sure its possible. I figure if you watch long enough to get the speed of the target, from there you should be able to take a decent guess of the AOB and distance using the hydrophone map readings. Then fire a spread to allow for a bit of miscalculation. I'll bet that would be a really satisfying kill if you pulled it off! :up:
It was discussed like a two weeks ago IIRC, and said (or rather believed) that this is not a valid, i.e. historically correct way to sink ships. However it doesn't mean you can't try to do this, but it's going to be extremely hard. I've tried it a few times, always missed. :) Hydrophone is not exact enough to take a good shot.

[Jimbuna]

If visibility is very poor, submerge and shadow until the weather improves or drop back a little and follow on the surface :yep:

[Corsair]

It's also a matter of what sub you're driving at the time and where you are in your patrol. If you are in a IX on the way home after a successful one and have a couple of torps left, you can accept to risk them on a nice target in poor visibility. If you are on the way to your patrol grid in a type II with only 5 torps, you really are looking for the best conditions to shoot at something valuable...:D

[scalelokt]

As far as attacking on hydrophone data only, seems like theoretically (I havent tried it yet) you could get enough data for a decent shot so long as you take down a lot of data points over a substantial amount of time. I figure with about 5 different readings a few minutes apart, even if the hydrophone isnt all that accurate you should be able to get a good idea of speed. As far as range goes I think you could make up for some inaccuracies so long as you fire at about 500 meters and the target is moving slow (which most convoys are it seems). That way if you are off on the range by a hundred meters give or take, I think you would still get a hit. Finally for AOB readings, I think so long as you are at or close to 90 degrees you should be able to get a hit if you are close enough. I'll try it and let you all know how it goes. I've had stormy weather on every patrol and the crew is getting antsy, plus the Brits aren't going to lose many ships if all I do is tell stories to the crew and play poker. Its time for some action. :rock: