View Full Version : The term "Japs"
Iron Budokan
02-09-07, 03:26 PM
Maybe I'm opening a can of worms that should better remain closed, but here goes anyway. I've noticed several people on this board are starting to refer to the Japanese opponents in SH5 as "Japs". I know racism was particularly virulent on both sides (American and Japanese) during the war. My main question is how do we handle that in SH5 and on these boards?
Speaking for myself I won't refer to my polygon opponents as Japs. Nor do I care if someone else does, maybe they're just doing the immersion thing. And I swear I'm not trying to imply in any way someone who says that is racist. But it got me to thinking. If we were playing a sim where we were on a destroyer hunting German subs would we refer to them as Krauts?
Do you see what I'm trying to say? I'm just wondering where the line is, or if there should even be a line. What do you guys think?
Barkhorn1x
02-09-07, 03:41 PM
Maybe I'm opening a can of worms that should better remain closed, but here goes anyway. I've noticed several people on this board are starting to refer to the Japanese opponents in SH5 as "Japs".
SH5 is out?!?! :o
OMG - I must have just missed about 1.5 years of my life!!!!
:cool:
Barkhorn.
Finback
02-09-07, 03:46 PM
I'm with you Iron. It's good to keep in mind as the war has been over for a long time. Personally, I don't want to offend anyone who visits this site. Looking at all the Germans who attend this site maybe we should keep in mind that with SH4 rolling out we may see quite a few Japanese who are also interested in this era...
Salute!!!
hyperion2206
02-09-07, 03:55 PM
Maybe I'm opening a can of worms that should better remain closed, but here goes anyway. I've noticed several people on this board are starting to refer to the Japanese opponents in SH5 as "Japs". I know racism was particularly virulent on both sides (American and Japanese) during the war. My main question is how do we handle that in SH5 and on these boards?
Speaking for myself I won't refer to my polygon opponents as Japs. Nor do I care if someone else does, maybe they're just doing the immersion thing. And I swear I'm not trying to imply in any way someone who says that is racist. But it got me to thinking. If we were playing a sim where we were on a destroyer hunting German subs would we refer to them as Krauts?
Do you see what I'm trying to say? I'm just wondering where the line is, or if there should even be a line. What do you guys think?
I don't see what's wrong with 'Japs'. I don't mind being called a 'Kraut', in fact I find quite funny. Once I've read that only soldiers serving on the east coast called the Japanes 'Japs', soldiers serving in Pacific called them 'Nips'
fire-fox
02-09-07, 03:56 PM
same here two.
timmyg00
02-09-07, 04:04 PM
"Japs" is just the shortened form of "Japanese". It's like a nickname.
Likewise, "Nips" is the short form of "Nipponese" (Nippon = Japan) ... ditto.
Were I a German citizen, I might find "Krauts" annoying, since it stereotypes Germans as sauerkraut eaters, which is silly. However, I don't think I'd find it to be particularly bigoted. But... I'm not a German citizen, so I really don't have a frame of reference for an informed opinion.
There are far worse epithets that could be, and have been, used to describe any given racial or ethnic group. I think shortened forms of acceptable terms are, by extension, also acceptable (As a citizen of the U.S., I reference the term "Yanks", as our British friends call us... hardly an offensive term...)
TG
hyperion2206
02-09-07, 04:12 PM
In WW1 the 'Tommies' (that's how we call them;)) used to call us 'Huns' which is (IMHO) even funnier than 'Krauts'. I guess every nation has such epithets like 'Frogs' for our French friends, or 'Yanks'. To me these names are rather harmless, but I could understand if somebody would feel offended.
I lived in Japan for almost 8 years & am married to a Japanese woman. And I am a bit sensitive about this. Saying "I sank a Jap destroyer!" Doesn't sound offensive to me. But saying somone is a Jap or Nip sounds derogatory to me. As a history buff i know there is no real comparison between the word Jap and Yank or tommie for instance. Jap was said with alot more hatred and the racism against Japanese Americans was much worse than against German or Italian Americans for instance.
Its just as easy to type JP or Jap. for Japanese. My personal belief is that prejudice against people who are different in partly an instinctive survival mechanism-for early humans it was a case of better safe than sorry when encountering a stranger in the wilderness etc. As such I think we have to work a bit to overcome this instinct.
Prejudice and racism are central problems throughout American history. And many predicted that a nation of immigrants couldn't survive. That "mongrolism" and the clash of cultures , values and beliefs of disparate groups would lead to chaos.
There is a Japanese forum for SH3 & I'm always happy to meet Japanese gamers who enjoy WW2 games. I'd hate for any to be driven away by a perception of prejudice. Now I know that the folks here at Subsim are all wonderful, & I don't want moderaters to get involved and make a big deal out of this, but I hope everyone will think about this issue carefully before making their decision about what words to use.
As background my Grampa's brother served on carriers in the Pacific and had a bad time of it. My wife's Grandfathers both fought in China. They were all farm kids and would have had a lot in common. Because of the war they all suffered a great deal. So I think its best to focus on the things we all have in common.
Alright, got that out of my system, if you've made it this far thanks for reading and considering my 2 cents worth.
:ping:
flintlock
02-09-07, 04:54 PM
"Japs" is just the shortened form of "Japanese". It's like a nickname.The term may be shortened version of Japanese and a nickname, however, to Japanese people: it's a disparaging and offensive slang term.
Ducimus
02-09-07, 05:01 PM
It's a WW2 sim.
Personally i'll not refrain from using the language and slang terms of the time period in the context of it being a WW2 sub sim. Yes, you'll hear me say, "Jap tin can" alot in the future. :lol:
Outside of the context of the game, then no, i wouldn't use said slang because it would be taken out of context.
timmyg00
02-09-07, 05:33 PM
"Japs" is just the shortened form of "Japanese". It's like a nickname.The term may be shortened version of Japanese and a nickname, however, to Japanese people: it's a disparaging and offensive slang term.
<content removed when the author found an official reference - TG>
I'm not a person who goes around using such labels as a matter of course... I think it's crass; but personally, I'm pretty tired of hearing about what I can and cannot say about any given group of people.
I think some people take such things too seriously. I could, this very second, decide that the term "Yank" was offensive to me, and then start demanding that people stop using it. The moderators would be pretty busy, I dare say ;)
I won't make such a decision... it's just a word. Words only have power over you if you allow it.
TG
<content removed when the author found an official reference - TG>
Finback
02-09-07, 05:36 PM
I appreciate the various viewpoints listed here. What I appreciate more is how they are all treated with respect.
Hat's Off to the Subsim Community!!!
Sailor Steve
02-09-07, 05:39 PM
To a lot of people it is highly offensive, or it wouldn't even be a topic of discussion.
Do those who defend its use vehemently also advocate free use of the fabled 'N'-word?
It probably won't offend a lot of gamers, especially those of the younger generations, but it really doesn't help to say "I'll say what I want and you can't stop me".
I think most of the members of this board have enough sense and manners to use terms like Jap, Kraut, Yank, etc. in the context of simming/gaming and not as an insult directed at another member. This is one of the better discussion forums out there on the internet in terms of respect from what I have seen. I do not forsee too many problems arising from the slang used around here and believe that if somebody was to direct derogatory terms towards somebody intentionally then they would feel the wrath of a good number of other members. What we have to keep in mind, as most of us know, is that we're talking not just about a game but using it as a way to live history.
:up:
You're all a good bunch of mariners!
:arrgh!:
flintlock
02-09-07, 05:57 PM
I'm pretty tired of hearing about what I can and cannot say about any given group of people. As am I.
Oh, and for the record: I'm not telling anyone what term they can or cannot use. That's not my place -- I'm just pointing out a fact.
flyingdane
02-09-07, 07:02 PM
Japs, Jerrys, Tommys, Pollocks and Yanks..Ect", Thats was the mind set of our fathers or grandfathers who served in wwII, (Politicly correct?)... NO!..But this is just a game and to play it like they lived it is to put yourself in there shoes and there mind set at the time. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/flyingdane/sterb041.gif
Don't be offended buy that, Remember most of us here are not old enought to remember the war and those of us that are have grown obove these petty differances..."Chill and have fun" http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/flyingdane/schla03.gif
hyperion2206
02-09-07, 07:03 PM
I agree that the word 'Jap' or 'Nip' is not as harmless as 'Kraut' for example and unless you call somebody in RL it's not a problem to use.
Saying:' I sunk 3 jap tin cans!' = OK
Saying:'You're **** jap' etc = That's a 'NO'
Ducimus
02-09-07, 07:19 PM
The word for today ladies and gent's is.....
Context.
hyperion2206
02-09-07, 07:23 PM
The word for today ladies and gent's is.....
Context.
And
Political Correctness
How I hate people who are 'politcal correct'!:p:rotfl:
It's a game........................It's a game.....................It's a game........................It's a game................................It's agame........................It's a game................................It's a game..................You see, I have to keep reminding myself over and over.......OK...everyone take a deep breath and let's say it together.......ready....It's a gaaaaaame.....I feel better already.......howzbout you.......
As you can see I used a ridicules way to begin this post in what I know will be a vein attempt to draw a parallel to the ridicules extremism of fettering member's choice of slag in reference of real life situations depicted thru an extremely high polycount game simply known as SH4. I can appreciate everyones sensitivity but for crying out loud....Donate more of your time to charatible organizations if you feel that insecure.
Please indulge me here for a few moments folks. This is a forum about WAR GAMES. We in this forum are entertained by the notion of controling vehicles of war. Which in real life as we all know where intended to destroy things and kill people in the process. If that doesn't offend you...using vernacular consistant with the time period should be a walk in the park.
I look at some of the phrases and sayings some of you have as part of your avatars or names only to be amused that you are sometimes the ones clammering about affending others. For the most part it is quite obvious the vast majority of the members here are higly educated and apparently come from solid backgrounds. Why else would you carry on about slang. On another thought if you are this sensitive why on earth would you wrap your self up in a game which glorfies wars, the destruction of property even cities and the killing of people in particualr. It just doesn't weigh out gang.
This is a great forum with great participants. And, I enjoy reading the many contributions which obvoiusly are the result of many hours of research. Sharing this info has enlightened me on a broad girth of issues. But I am somewhat perplexed over the notion of becoming self absorbed in a war game then turn around and get all sappy on us.
It creats a creditbility gap that makes the Grand Canyon look like a hairline fracture.
Keep those cards and letters coming.............
flyingdane
02-09-07, 07:30 PM
It's a game........................It's a game.....................It's a game........................It's a game................................It's agame........................It's a game................................It's a game..................You see, I have to keep reminding myself over and over.......OK...everyone take a deep breath and let's say it together.......ready....It's a gaaaaaame.....I feel better already.......howzbout you.......
As you can see I used a ridicules way to begin this post in what I know will be a vein attempt to draw a parallel to the ridicules extremism of fettering member's choice of slag in reference of real life situations depicted thru an extremely high polycount game simply known as SH4. I can appreciate everyones sensitivity but for crying out loud....Donate more of your time to charatible organizations if you feel that insecure.
Please indulge me here for a few moments folks. This is a forum about WAR GAMES. We in this forum are entertained by the notion of controling vehicles of war. Which in real life as we all know where intended to destroy things and kill people in the process. If that doesn't offend you...using vernacular consistant with the time period should be a walk in the park.
I look at some of the phrases and sayings some of you have as part of your avatars or names only to be amused that you are sometimes the ones clammering about affending others. For the most part it is quite obvious the vast majority of the members here are higly educated and apparently come from solid backgrounds. Why else would you carry on about slang. On another thought if you are this sensitive why on earth would you wrap your self up in a game which glorfies wars, the destruction of property even cities and the killing of people in particualr. It just doesn't weigh out gang.
This is a great forum with great participants. And, I enjoy reading the many contributions which obvoiusly are the result of many hours of research. Sharing this info has enlightened me on a broad girth of issues. But I am somewhat perplexed over the notion of becoming self absorbed in a war game then turn around and get all sappy on us.
It creats a creditbility gap that makes the Grand Canyon look like a hairline fracture.
Keep those cards and letters coming.............
What you said http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/flyingdane/thmat1.gif
Abd_von_Mumit
02-09-07, 07:31 PM
There's only one kind of jokes I'm never willing to hear in my life: rascism jokes laughing about the worst things men did to other men and similar (like about Jews in funnels, that used to be quite popular in Poland). But there is no other such boarders for me. I could make jokes about other nations and countries, disabled people, policemen, presidents, women&men, children, gods/saints/sanctities of any religion etc. etc. But then the responsibility for your words issue appears.
When one is ready to tell such jokes, one has to be sure his audience is going to understand his intentions. When I call my dark-skinned Arabic friends 'Negers' (everyday practise) they just call me a Jewish spy, '*******g whitey' or a 'too much circumcised in childhood', we make laugh at it and all's ok. When I answer to my boss at any occasion "Jawohl, mein Fuehrer!" raising my right hand up, he just calls me 'a stupid red Lenin's follower', 'bloody comrade' and so on, and he can't hide his mouth smiling. :) And so on. All is ok as long as you can be sure noone is offended and noone around takes these silly jokes too serious.
On these forums it happened to me a few times to tell a joke that I thought was really innocent and I got completely misunderstood, while it would never come to my head that anyone could take it serious. But it happened. We, guys that are cruising here, are so different: in age, background, sense of humour, English skills (that's important too!), habits, political views/opinions. I don't think I've ever been on more multicultural forums. What's funny for a Pole can be not for an Indonesian (even their flag is upside-down! ;) ), muslims will be offended easily with Muhammad jokes and Americans about American stupidity ones. That's obvious and one can't predict people's reaction. So we must be cautious.
So if in any doubt, think twice. If in no doubt, think thrice before you post that innocent remark. For me 'Jap' is nothing more than a shortened form of 'Japanese'. For a Japanese that knows his grandfather stories form WWII it could be however highly offensive. Take responsibility for what you say. Even more: it's not enough to "be responsible for what I say". Think of it as "responsibility for how others are going to understand, what I say". And always be ready to say "Sorry, didn't want to offend anyone, my fault being not cautious enough".
hyperion2206
02-09-07, 07:39 PM
It's a game........................It's a game.....................It's a game........................It's a game................................It's agame........................It's a game................................It's a game..................You see, I have to keep reminding myself over and over.......OK...everyone take a deep breath and let's say it together.......ready....It's a gaaaaaame.....I feel better already.......howzbout you.......
As you can see I used a ridicules way to begin this post in what I know will be a vein attempt to draw a parallel to the ridicules extremism of fettering member's choice of slag in reference of real life situations depicted thru an extremely high polycount game simply known as SH4. I can appreciate everyones sensitivity but for crying out loud....Donate more of your time to charatible organizations if you feel that insecure.
Please indulge me here for a few moments folks. This is a forum about WAR GAMES. We in this forum are entertained by the notion of controling vehicles of war. Which in real life as we all know where intended to destroy things and kill people in the process. If that doesn't offend you...using vernacular consistant with the time period should be a walk in the park.
I look at some of the phrases and sayings some of you have as part of your avatars or names only to be amused that you are sometimes the ones clammering about affending others. For the most part it is quite obvious the vast majority of the members here are higly educated and apparently come from solid backgrounds. Why else would you carry on about slang. On another thought if you are this sensitive why on earth would you wrap your self up in a game which glorfies wars, the destruction of property even cities and the killing of people in particualr. It just doesn't weigh out gang.
This is a great forum with great participants. And, I enjoy reading the many contributions which obvoiusly are the result of many hours of research. Sharing this info has enlightened me on a broad girth of issues. But I am somewhat perplexed over the notion of becoming self absorbed in a war game then turn around and get all sappy on us.
It creats a creditbility gap that makes the Grand Canyon look like a hairline fracture.
Keep those cards and letters coming.............
I think everybody is just so sensitive because you've got to be it today. You say something and somebody gets offended and hell brakes lose.
That reminds of one of the Scrubs episodes:
Dr. Kelso: Dr. Dorian, I have kept my mouth shut about all the recent sexual harassment complaints because I don't think it's fair to punish a man for making small talk...or, say, asking his secretary just once to dress up as a geisha girl and call him Kelso-san....
:rotfl:
Ducimus
02-09-07, 08:23 PM
http://www.iceboxman.com/carlin/pael.php#track14
Abd_von_Mumit
02-09-07, 08:49 PM
http://www.iceboxman.com/carlin/pael.php#track14
Oh man... Thanks for that link! Great piece of text there! :up:
flyingdane
02-09-07, 08:57 PM
It's a game........................It's a game.....................It's a game........................It's a game................................It's agame........................It's a game................................It's a game..................You see, I have to keep reminding myself over and over.......OK...everyone take a deep breath and let's say it together.......ready....It's a gaaaaaame.....I feel better already.......howzbout you.......
As you can see I used a ridicules way to begin this post in what I know will be a vein attempt to draw a parallel to the ridicules extremism of fettering member's choice of slag in reference of real life situations depicted thru an extremely high polycount game simply known as SH4. I can appreciate everyones sensitivity but for crying out loud....Donate more of your time to charatible organizations if you feel that insecure.
Please indulge me here for a few moments folks. This is a forum about WAR GAMES. We in this forum are entertained by the notion of controling vehicles of war. Which in real life as we all know where intended to destroy things and kill people in the process. If that doesn't offend you...using vernacular consistant with the time period should be a walk in the park.
I look at some of the phrases and sayings some of you have as part of your avatars or names only to be amused that you are sometimes the ones clammering about affending others. For the most part it is quite obvious the vast majority of the members here are higly educated and apparently come from solid backgrounds. Why else would you carry on about slang. On another thought if you are this sensitive why on earth would you wrap your self up in a game which glorfies wars, the destruction of property even cities and the killing of people in particualr. It just doesn't weigh out gang.
This is a great forum with great participants. And, I enjoy reading the many contributions which obvoiusly are the result of many hours of research. Sharing this info has enlightened me on a broad girth of issues. But I am somewhat perplexed over the notion of becoming self absorbed in a war game then turn around and get all sappy on us.
It creats a creditbility gap that makes the Grand Canyon look like a hairline fracture.
Keep those cards and letters coming.............
I think everybody is just so sensitive because you've got to be it today. You say something and somebody gets offended and hell brakes lose.
That reminds of one of the Scrubs episodes:
Dr. Kelso: Dr. Dorian, I have kept my mouth shut about all the recent sexual harassment complaints because I don't think it's fair to punish a man for making small talk...or, say, asking his secretary just once to dress up as a geisha girl and call him Kelso-san....
:rotfl:
Nope, There senitive because it's about us subs and not there all mighty 7cs or 9bs, god -for- bid.. that someone other than the germans made a great sub during ww2.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/flyingdane/eck05.gif
Iron Budokan
02-10-07, 12:05 AM
I honestly do not think any sensitivity (of what we are talking about) stems from that.
DaMaGe007
02-10-07, 04:39 AM
Im against political correctness, I think it breeds ignorance and makes an issue out of racism/sexism whether there is an issue or not. I use racist/sexist remarks in good fun and as far as im concerned its the intention behind the remarks that needs to be taken into concideration. That being said on the internet I tend to "try" to be PC for several reasons.
1, You are missing the all important "Tone of Voice" and "Body Language"
2, Its just too much of a Pain to keep explaining to Intollerant PC People, the truth behind your comments.
Funny that Political correctness is supposed to be about tollerance, but they arent very tollerant of non politicly correct people, which is still bigotry towards a certain type of person.
Im against political correctness, I think it breeds ignorance and makes an issue out of racism/sexism whether there is an issue or not. I use racist/sexist remarks in good fun and as far as im concerned its the intention behind the remarks that needs to be taken into concideration. That being said on the internet I tend to "try" to be PC for several reasons.
1, You are missing the all important "Tone of Voice" and "Body Language"
2, Its just too much of a Pain to keep explaining to Intollerant PC People, the truth behind your comments.
Funny that Political correctness is supposed to be about tollerance, but they arent very tollerant of non politicly correct people, which is still bigotry towards a certain type of person.
U da man!
Im against political correctness, I think it breeds ignorance and makes an issue out of racism/sexism whether there is an issue or not. I use racist/sexist remarks in good fun and as far as im concerned its the intention behind the remarks that needs to be taken into concideration. That being said on the internet I tend to "try" to be PC for several reasons.
1, You are missing the all important "Tone of Voice" and "Body Language"
2, Its just too much of a Pain to keep explaining to Intollerant PC People, the truth behind your comments.
Funny that Political correctness is supposed to be about tollerance, but they arent very tollerant of non politicly correct people, which is still bigotry towards a certain type of person.
U da man!
Bingo...
http://www.iceboxman.com/carlin/pael.php#track14
U da man to...or is it also.....can't decide these days of such uncertainty......
btw....Not to offend anyone here but Ducimus (aka Da Man) has provided us with a link which could possibly be the end-all, be-all to life's questions.....I thank you Sir.
irish1958
02-10-07, 09:25 AM
Racism=War
I order to get 18+/- year old people to kill other 18+/- people, it is necessary to give them a reason to hate.
This then becomes much easier when some of your buddies get killed which reinforces the hate.
Personally, I never want to use a term another person finds offensive; unfortunately, I sometimes do.
Sailor Steve
02-10-07, 11:51 AM
ridicules...vein...ridicules...thru...affending
Okay, since we're not worrying about what we say and how it affects others...
The words are
1) Ridiculous
2) Vain
3) Through
4) Offending
I also dislike so-called "political correctness", but on the other hand it doesn't take any effort at all to avoid pejorative and insulting terms. Using such terms in the name of "not being told what to do" is both childish and arrogant. I thoroughly dislike terrorists, but I don't make a habit of calling all Arabs "ragheads" or "towelheads".
When I was involved with killing them I did tend to refer to Vietnamese as "gooks", "slants" and "slopes". I don't anymore, even in fun. If you want to call the enemy "Japs" or "Nips" in your patrol reports and stories, that makes perfect sense, as it fits the context of the times. On the other hand, using those terms in your everyday posts is offensive, and you should try to avoid them where possible.
Safe-Keeper
02-10-07, 12:15 PM
My two cents: I've noticed that 90% of the times the term "political correctness" is used, it's used by rude and/or insensitive people who say something they shouldn't. Then when they're confronted they go "OMG PC is b'c0min 2 exagerated!111". It's used as a "get-out-of-jail-free card" to avoid having to take responsibility for your statements.
In the old days you apologized when you offended someone. Today you cry bigot at the top of your voice. How far we've gotten.
When I was involved with killing them I did tend to refer to Vietnamese as "gooks", "slants" and "slopes". I don't anymore, even in fun. If you want to call the enemy "Japs" or "Nips" in your patrol reports and stories, that makes perfect sense, as it fits the context of the times. On the other hand, using those terms in your everyday posts is offensive, and you should try to avoid them where possible.What you said.
http://www.iceboxman.com/carlin/pael.php#track14Childish rambling. "OMG if you get offended b'cuz I used an offensive word ure intolerant!!111 its just wordz!!11". Right. There are such things as feelings in the world, feelings which warrant respect.
Then you make a joke about 9/11 (not that I do) or some other subject they care about and all of a sudden it's not "just a..." anything anymore. You see, people died on 9/11, so there are grieving people left behind.
Gotta love those kind of people.
codmander
02-10-07, 12:26 PM
better than **** when at war the par is to degrate the enemy ***** so on so forth:oops:
I hate to edit a post in a discussion about political correctness, but ok, we are discussing these terms but we don't need a laundry list of derogatory racial slurs, please. -- NS
Onkel Neal
02-10-07, 01:01 PM
I do not like political correctness much either, and I'm no expert on ethnic and racial slurs, but we do have to make sure we treat this subject with tact. This reminds me when Bart Simpson attended church and on the way home announced to his parents that the words hell, damn, and ass are in the Bible so he was going to start using them. "Damn, let's get our ass to the hell restuarant". ;)
I am actually a fan of the post WWII Japanese people. I appreciate the gains they've made and how they have been a supportive US ally. So no one could realistically call me anti-Japanese. I don't know if "Jap" is a slur that Japanese find offensive or not. I use it as short for Japanese, but if I found using it was causing friction, I would not use it.
fire-fox
02-10-07, 01:11 PM
I do not like political correctness much either, and I'm no expert on ethnic and racial slurs, but we do have to make sure we treat this subject with tact. This reminds me when Bart Simpson attended church and on the way home announced to his parents that the words hell, damn, and ass are in the Bible so he was going to start using them. "Damn, let's get our ass to the hell restuarant". ;)
I am actually a fan of the post WWII Japanese people. I appreciate the gains they've made and how they have been a supportive US ally. So no one could realistically call me anti-Japanese. I don't know if "Jap" is a slur that Japanese find offensive or not. I use it as short for Japanese, but if I found using it was causing friction, I would not use it.
thats where i stand too. but if you dont no if the Japanese find it offensive then i gess its best to use the full name, but then againe if it's not used in an offensive mannor it juat as diskiptive a term and "the UK" is instead of the United Kingdom!:know:
DaMaGe007
02-10-07, 01:38 PM
I have no problem callin an Arab Towelhead or ragboy, as long as its face to face and I can smile afterwards. If said Arab is holding an AK47 I would say "gee thats a nice gun !" /runs away
Self preservation is a strong instinct.
Ducimus
02-10-07, 01:40 PM
I think part of the problem here is that people resent other's telling them how to talk - within reason.
I mean first of all, i think everyone would probably universally agree, context or no context, that the word "November Indigo Golf Golf Echo Romeo" is a word that nobody should use. It's just a word that ignites a flashpan with alot of ummm.. history behind it.
To agree to refrain from using a word like that is reasonable. Besides, nobody wants to be confiused with a racist biggot that would use that word.
But i think there's a line that people don't like being pushed over. For instance this is a WW2 submarine sim. If you've ready any books from the time period. I dunno, "run silent run deep", or many of Edward Beach's books on the subject, you'll find the word "jap" mentioned alot. Given the subject and it's context, its common language. Telling a person they can't use that word, within proper context, - now your just telling people how to talk and it's at a level where it might be considered unresonable to a minor degree of being repressed - or at the least it feels that way.
I personally resent people telling me how to talk if its beyond what's reasonable. I also think this is something built into the American psychi to a certain degree. "It's a free country, freedom of speech!, I'll say what i damn well want!" is the immediate kneejerk response. However, i don't think anyone would use that argument in an airport with bomb jokes. So there's obviously a line.
I'd also resent someone telling me i can't use "jap" as shorthand in the context of SH4 because of this stuipd **** called "aZy3n PrYd3" or whatever they like to call it. I see that ****, i'll go out of my way to use Jap, and every other slang that exists in the WW2 dictionary, just to piss them off, but ill stop there cause that touchs on a subject that belongs on the general forum. Im obviously getting worked up now. eesssh :roll: (long story short i hate people who hyphenate themselves, its pretentious BS)
geetrue
02-10-07, 01:41 PM
I grew up hating the Japanese in cartoons, comic books, barber shops, you name it everyone hated them. The war had been over for several years of course, but my elders were not to happy with the Japanese.
Years later I found out I loved the same things they did model planes, real planes, ships, art work, history, electronics, cars (didn't they copy just about every good car ever made). So even with my up bringing it was easy to forgive them.
You can forgive people without loving them, but it is almost impossible to love people without forgiving them too.
But on the other hand it is a war sim it is a game and it is just plain psychological to refer to the enemy as Japs ... this poster was paid for by the US government and speaks for itself. Wait for it to download.
http://theworldwideweather.com/PhotoDraw11.jpg
Oh, any Japanese out there ... bring it on big boy we got Japanese AI on MP :lol:
I also dislike so-called "political correctness", but on the other hand it doesn't take any effort at all to avoid pejorative and insulting terms. Using such terms in the name of "not being told what to do" is both childish and arrogant. I thoroughly dislike terrorists, but I don't make a habit of calling all Arabs "ragheads" or "towelheads".
When I was involved with killing them I did tend to refer to Vietnamese as "gooks", "slants" and "slopes". I don't anymore, even in fun. If you want to call the enemy "Japs" or "Nips" in your patrol reports and stories, that makes perfect sense, as it fits the context of the times. On the other hand, using those terms in your everyday posts is offensive, and you should try to avoid them where possible.
I agree. I also think in a historic patrol report or story using the language of the time is acceptable as it is coming out of the mouth of a character, not the author.
Neal, I understand using Jap as an abreviation, but then a period at the end isn't hard to add and makes clear your intent. ex "I was off the Jap. coast near Shikoku."
To be clear this is the most mature game forum I've found and I always give people here the benefit of the doubt. We just have to remember that jokes and statements are more easily misunderstood in postings than in real life where context, tone of voice , body language and intent are more easily understood. -Severaol of you already pointed this out, just wanted to add my support to your statements.
:ping:
DaMaGe007
02-10-07, 01:58 PM
****** - is concidered the derogatry term.
Nigga- is concidered the friendly use of the derogatry term, they both sound the same but the English Language is constantly evolving and new meanings are developed. So it really doesnt matter how you spell it even.
For instance
Gay- means happy (not homosexual related)
Gay- means Homosexual, has both derogatry and friendly connultations depending on delivery.
Gay-means Crap, no good...Derived from homophobia in the early days, but nowdays is used as a general term (not homo related) since homosexuals are widely accepted nowdays.
Rap music and movies have helped to make the Nigga word usable in a friendly sence, and I think its a good thing to help bridge the race gap and help to forget the past.
If you use it or not is personal choice and also depends on the situation your in.
(hence my arab joke earlier)
I think part of the problem here is that people resent other's telling them how to talk - within reason.
I mean first of all, i think everyone would probably universally agree, context or no context, that the word "November Indigo Golf Golf Echo Romeo" is a word that nobody should use. It's just a word that ignites a flashpan with alot of ummm.. history behind it.
To agree to refrain from using a word like that is reasonable. Besides, nobody wants to be confiused with a racist biggot that would use that word.
But i think there's a line that people don't like being pushed over. For instance this is a WW2 submarine sim. If you've ready any books from the time period. I dunno, "run silent run deep", or many of Edward Beach's books on the subject, you'll find the word "jap" mentioned alot. Given the subject and it's context, its common language. Telling a person they can't use that word, within proper context, - now your just telling people how to talk and it's at a level where it might be considered unresonable to a minor degree of being repressed - or at the least it feels that way.
I personally resent people telling me how to talk if its beyond what's reasonable. I also think this is something built into the American psychi to a certain degree. "It's a free country, freedom of speech!, I'll say what i damn well want!" is the immediate kneejerk response. However, i don't think anyone would use that argument in an airport with bomb jokes. So there's obviously a line.
I'd also resent someone telling me i can't use "jap" as shorthand in the context of SH4 because of this stuipd **** called "aZy3n PrYd3" or whatever they like to call it. I see that ****, i'll go out of my way to use Jap, and every other slang that exists in the WW2 dictionary, just to piss them off, but ill stop there cause that touchs on a subject that belongs on the general forum. Im obviously getting worked up now. eesssh :roll: (long story short i hate people who hyphenate themselves, its pretentious BS)
i think there is a bit of misunderstanding here. i for one am not telling anyone what words to use or not use. I'm trying to explain my feelings and the feelings of some others as well about the word Jap. I hope others will give the issue some thought and consider when and when not to use the word or the abreviation. It is still your decision. Its clear that you are not a racist from what you've written. Now that I know that about you I can view your posts in that light. The problem with forums is when we don't know the person posting well enough and we misinterpret what they mean. so I advocate caution to avoid misunderstandings. :ping:
flintlock
02-10-07, 02:25 PM
long story short i hate people who hyphenate themselves, its pretentious BSNot a fan of hyphenated terms myself, though this is the result of many of todays open, multicultural and immigrant-based societies. Others argue there's nothing wrong with it as it simply shows multinationality.
DaMaGe007
02-10-07, 02:38 PM
Hating people for hyphenating themselves is still predudice of a different kind which is really no better that racism, also accusing them of being pretencious and full of BS is insulting them aswell.
Better wording would have been "I hate it WHEN people Hyphenate themselves, I find it annoying"
Its probably just the way you have worded your post due to your getting worked up.
My grandfather was killed in the infamous Sandakan-Ranau death march in Borneo [http://www.sandakan-deathmarch.com/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandakan_Death_Marches]
so it could be argued that I have a bit of an axe to grind with the Japanese.
However, never during the time that I was growing up did I hear a single racist word from my parents or grandmother on the subject, and they never referred to "Japs". I have quite a few Japanese colleagues, and there is much I like about Japanese culture - their films and cuisine, for example.
My opinion is that in-game and, as a consequence, in these forums "Jap" and "Kraut", "Yank" and "Tommy" and other epithets can be reasonably applied and understood to be used in historical context and moreover to be directed into the past, not to be directed at currently living people.
In real life, such terms would be unacceptable if one's life is directed towards facilitating greater understanding and trust between people. I would hope that people intelligent enough to play these games could readily make the distinction between game "smack talk" and the players' true life philosophies, just as sports can create allegiances and cause otherwise reasonable people to engage in all kinds of mud-slinging, all of which is forgotten outside the context of the sport.
StandingCow
02-10-07, 04:00 PM
*Shrug* I will call them japs. Just because I don't want to type out japanese every single time.
Subnuts
02-10-07, 04:26 PM
*Shrug* I will call them japs. Just because I don't want to type out japanese every single time.
I think that's within your rights as a Yank sub captain. :smug:
The only reason this "Japs" thing has become an issue is because a topics been made and the word racism has been thrown in......
hyperion2206
02-10-07, 04:39 PM
****** - is concidered the derogatry term.
Nigga- is concidered the friendly use of the derogatry term, they both sound the same but the English Language is constantly evolving and new meanings are developed. So it really doesnt matter how you spell it even.
For instance
Gay- means happy (not homosexual related)
Gay- means Homosexual, has both derogatry and friendly connultations depending on delivery.
Gay-means Crap, no good...Derived from homophobia in the early days, but nowdays is used as a general term (not homo related) since homosexuals are widely accepted nowdays.
Rap music and movies have helped to make the Nigga word usable in a friendly sence, and I think its a good thing to help bridge the race gap and help to forget the past.
If you use it or not is personal choice and also depends on the situation your in.
(hence my arab joke earlier)
I study Anglo-American history and had a seminar on African American Activism in the 20th century and from what I've learned is that you'll probably be in big trouble if you call an Afro American 'Nigga'. If an Afro American uses that word it's ok, but as a white man you shouldn't use it. There's actually a really nice book by Todd Boyd called 'The New Head Niggas In Charge: The Death of Civil Rights and the Reign of Hip Hop' talking about the ambiguity of that word.
DaMaGe007
02-10-07, 04:45 PM
Thats true Hyperion I fully understand that, but that is racism in itself and its them in the wrong, and as dulcimus said thats when it time to throw it in thier face so they deal with it.
There was a thread regarding the word Jap about 6-9 months ago AJ and it reads very differently to this one, this one has a much broader discussion, I think the other one got closed.
hyperion2206
02-10-07, 04:56 PM
Thats true Hyperion I fully understand that, but that is racism in itself and its them in the wrong, and as dulcimus said thats when it time to throw it in thier face so they deal with it.
There was a thread regarding the word Jap about 6-9 months ago AJ and it reads very differently to this one, this one has a much broader discussion, I think the other one got closed.
That's the nice thing about such threads: you can discuss these issues forever without reaching a consent. Love it.:D
flintlock
02-10-07, 05:06 PM
but that is racism in itself and its them in the wrong I'm not sure I'd qualify it as racism, but it's definitely a double standard. My feeling is if you find a term about your race offensive, then don't perpetuate it by constantly using it yourself. It's either an offensive term or it's not, period. To argue that it's only offensive when someone of another race uses it is just dense and inviting trouble.
DaMaGe007
02-10-07, 05:20 PM
Funny thing happened to me once.
I was out nightclubbing and a bit the worse for wear, staggering down the road I walked straight through a pack of about 25 Aboriginals (18 19 yearolds)
as I reached the center of the pack I bumped into a girl whose back was towards me, I placed my hands on her arms and steadied myself Said "Sorry" and contined through. When I got through the pack I turned, mabe instinct, mabe mistrust, to see her charging at me ready to fight.
I raised my hands open like surrender, but also ready to parry the blows, and said..
"Hey hey hey, didnt you hear me say I was sorry?, Im just a bit unsteady on my feet at the moment"
She said "Yeah ok mate" and she turned to join the others, just then a male came charging out, he had seen her rushing me.
She swerved and grabbed him pushing him back to the pack.
The racism they have experienced caused them to have racism towards me.
So yes its a vicious circle, but it will remain that way as long as you allow people have those "Double standards" sooner or later you have to explain it to them.
It is prudent to use caution though when outnumbered or outgunned.
Harry Buttle
02-10-07, 06:38 PM
Racism=War
I order to get 18+/- year old people to kill other 18+/- people, it is necessary to give them a reason to hate.
This then becomes much easier when some of your buddies get killed which reinforces the hate.
A reason to hate? do you mean like bombing Pearl Harbour, massacring Civilians and PWs or did you have some other more PC reason in mind?
Seriously, do you honestly believe that the allies hated and went to war with the Japs because of a racist stereotype?
hyperion2206
02-10-07, 06:47 PM
Racism=War
I order to get 18+/- year old people to kill other 18+/- people, it is necessary to give them a reason to hate.
This then becomes much easier when some of your buddies get killed which reinforces the hate.
A reason to hate? do you mean like bombing Pearl Harbour, massacring Civilians and PWs or did you have some other more PC reason in mind?
Seriously, do you honestly believe that the allies hated and went to war with the Japs because of a racist stereotype?
Nope, but it's easier killing a 'Jap' or 'Kraut' than killing a human being. You have to make your enemy less human in order not to feel guilty. Well, that's just a theory of mine.:roll:
Chief of the Boat
02-10-07, 06:53 PM
I remember Pearl Harbor. Further, I have been called a lot of 'bad names'...done my share of the 'calling'. The REAL problem is that in this age where so many people can get away with throwing everybody The Finger...the same people have grown such thin skin you can see through them. If there has EVER been a Four Letter Word, it is "Politcally Correct". [Bleep] that. And that's from a Swabbie WASP who doesn't give a Rat's Butt who says it...
COB
immortal44
02-10-07, 07:07 PM
The word for today ladies and gent's is.....
Context.
Sure, but that doesn't mean someone won't take offense no matter the context. I know some japanese and they don't care at all about being called japs. I was on a car forum and said 'jap imports' (that's what cars imported from japan are called) and a japanese american took major offense to it. He basically said it is a no-no word in america, although he may have just been uptight or had a bad personal experience.
Chief of the Boat
02-10-07, 07:09 PM
[Bleep] him.......thin skin.........
Ducimus
02-10-07, 07:29 PM
Hating people for hyphenating themselves is still predudice of a different kind which is really no better that racism, also accusing them of being pretencious and full of BS is insulting them aswell.
Ok, since your calling me racist, i'll bite on the bait, but i wont get very far into it since im not into discussion right now.
Theres two types of people where multiculturism is concerned.
Type A :
Who say's " I'm a (insert other nation here)-American".
Type B:
Who say's " Im an American of (insert country here) decent".
See the difference?
I wont go into it anymore then that because this thread is going to hell in a hand basket as it is already. BTW, I'm a type B. Im an American of German, Native Indian, and Chinese decent. You can call me Kruat, whatever slang there is for native americans, and Chink if you want - i could care less.
I dont see why "Japs" is racist either, its maybe a bit cheeky though (too much PC hystyria about if you ask me,) but I dont mind not using the word if it bothers people.
Considering i went out with a nice 'Jap' girl for about 2 and half years - I think -kind of rules me out from having any kind of racial issues with Japanese people. Or it makes me a total hypocryte, you decide.... :oops:
Chief of the Boat
02-10-07, 07:40 PM
Everybody has at least three identifying features : (1) Race, (2) Country, (3) Ethinicity. *I* am a Caucasian, American, 'European American'. We are who we ARE...
DaMaGe007
02-10-07, 07:47 PM
Hating people for hyphenating themselves is still predudice of a different kind which is really no better that racism, also accusing them of being pretencious and full of BS is insulting them aswell.
Ok, since your calling me racist, i'll bite on the bait, but i wont get very far into it since im not into discussion right now.
Theres two types of people where multiculturism is concerned.
Type A :
Who say's " I'm a (insert other nation here)-American".
Type B:
Who say's " Im an American of (insert country here) decent".
See the difference?
I wont go into it anymore then that because this thread is going to hell in a hand basket as it is already. BTW, I'm a type B. Im an American of German, Native Indian, and Chinese decent. You can call me Kruat, whatever slang there is for native americans, and Chink if you want - i could care less.
Oh I see what you were meaning now, I thought you were refering to people who use a hyphen in thier internet names, like Fire-fox or U-dog (other forum members). I thought it was a bit of a strange thing to be upset over. I was merely pointing out that your wording could have been better since you seemed to a person that doesnt like to offend, that last line kinda made you look a bit hypocritical in that regard.
Now I know what you are talking about it makes more sence and is possibly related to Patriotism ? I agree because they are making an issue out of the race aspect, instead of honouring thier decent afterwards. Simple missunderstanding.
SeniorSpan
02-10-07, 08:03 PM
G'day,
Interesting thread. COB, well said! My particular phrase, "we are over civilized"!
My two cents on "Japs"; lived in northern Japan for 4 years, had many Japanese men and woman working for me and I made many Japanese acquaintances and a handful of good friends. Every nationality and race seems to have a "tag(s)", in the case of this thread, the tag IDed is "Japs". I found, while living in Japan, it can be derogatory or just somewhat of a friendly slur, depending on the situation, context and tone used when spoken. I'm sure that's the case for every nationality and race. I'll say Japs on occassion but mostly say/write Japanese.
And, as and obsevation: I'm very happy to see no one has offended anyone by suggesting they are......... articulate. :)
Cheers
I am not clear on whether "Jap" is a potentially offensive term or not. Sure there was racial hatred directed towards the Japanese during WWII, but that does not automatically make the term offensive per se.
"Yanks" is not a derogatory term (except perhaps if an American Southerner is speaking about a Northerner!), neither is "Tommy" or "Fritz." I am a Canadian and "Canuck" is not an offensive term either. "Kraut" or "Hun" seem to be insulting terms, but "Kraut" is clearly no worse in meaning that the relatively innocuous "Limey" (both refer to foods, after all...)
The British often referred to the Japanese as "The Nips" during the war... is that offensive? I don't think anybody says it anymore anyhow...
I guess my point is that there are obviously clearly offensive and derogatory English-language terms for various racial and national groups, but there are also terms that are friendly nicknames, short forms, or mildly derisive or sarcastic terms.
Which of these descriptions applies to the term "Jap?" After all, it's just a shortened form of "Japanese." Are there any Japanese people on the forum? I would be interested to hear their perspective...
Ducimus
02-10-07, 09:41 PM
This thread is dead.
Im not sure which i dislike most. The fact that some folks thought to make a big deal out of a common phraise like "Jap tin can" or the fact that i got suckered into responding to it.
EDIT:
you know what the funny thing is. A swastika is alot worse then the word "jap". It symbolizes ALOT of things, even to this day, and is one of many adopted symbols of racial hate white supremists groups, Yet nobody ever complains about swazticas in SH3. But mutter the word jap, and somebody gets their panties in a twist. yeah, go ahead, somebody explain that one.
I am not clear on whether "Jap" is a potentially offensive term or not. Sure there was racial hatred directed towards the Japanese during WWII, but that does not automatically make the term offensive per se.
"Yanks" is not a derogatory term (except perhaps if an American Southerner is speaking about a Northerner!), neither is "Tommy" or "Fritz." I am a Canadian and "Canuck" is not an offensive term either. "Kraut" or "Hun" seem to be insulting terms, but "Kraut" is clearly no worse in meaning that the relatively innocuous "Limey" (both refer to foods, after all...)
The British often referred to the Japanese as "The Nips" during the war... is that offensive? I don't think anybody says it anymore anyhow...
I guess my point is that there are obviously clearly offensive and derogatory English-language terms for various racial and national groups, but there are also terms that are friendly nicknames, short forms, or mildly derisive or sarcastic terms.
Which of these descriptions applies to the term "Jap?" After all, it's just a shortened form of "Japanese." Are there any Japanese people on the forum? I would be interested to hear their perspective...
Canuck and Yank are rather unique in being embraced by the group that the words refer to. Limey, won't offend someone from the UK as much as belittle football will. ;)
While today we might think of Jap or Nip as simply short hand, traditionally it has been a pejorative (sp?) Pre-war laws preventing Japanese from becoming citizens or from wedding whites were common on the west coast. Wartime US propaganda was also extremely racist- so were the Japanese btw.
Now i don't say the F word in front of my Mother even though I don't think there is really anything wrong with it. Its just that she doesn't like it and I don't want to upset her or show disrespect. I don't think this impinges on my freedom or makes me less of a man. Why should refraining from using a contraversial word be such a sacrifice?
Anyway, I've already said a patrol report about sinking a Jap tin can isn't the usage that concerns me...
Ducimus, just because you could care less if people call you chink (do you even look Chinese?) doesn't mean everybody else has to feel the same way does it? I know quite a few people who do find it very upsetting.
Onkel Neal
02-10-07, 11:43 PM
Now i don't say the F word in front of my Mother even though I don't think there is really anything wrong with it. Its just that she doesn't like it and I don't want to upset her or show disrespect. I don't think this impinges on my freedom or makes me less of a man. Why should refraining from using a contraversial word be such a sacrifice?
Well said, U-Dog.
PS: Love the hat!
immortal44
02-10-07, 11:58 PM
Canuck and Yank are rather unique in being embraced by the group that the words refer to.
Pom, aussie, kiwi, although I'm not sure if poms embrace theirs.
Gizzmoe
02-11-07, 12:48 AM
Yet nobody ever complains about swazticas in SH3. But mutter the word jap, and somebody gets their panties in a twist. yeah, go ahead, somebody explain that one.
There were several people here that complained about the swastikas in SH3. Drebbel for example said that he wouldn´t have played SH3 if they hadn´t removed it from the game.
Abd_von_Mumit
02-11-07, 06:53 AM
Yet nobody ever complains about swazticas in SH3. But mutter the word jap, and somebody gets their panties in a twist. yeah, go ahead, somebody explain that one.
There were several people here that complained about the swastikas in SH3. Drebbel for example said that he wouldn´t have played SH3 if they hadn´t removed it from the game.
Quite funny, that we forget things so fast. The simbol has been used for thousands years before nazis adopted it, in almost any culture of the world we know. Likewise star of David and tens of other stars, all flavours of crosses, circles, squares... The Hindu didn't let the European Union to ban the Swastika simbol in all UE countries, and that's very good. I hope in a few ten years the nazi odium will go away and the swastika will be used again in its original meaning.
Simbol is never 'bad' in itself... I think. And there is hardly any simbol that haven't been used for numerous purposes.
Have a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
The Hindu Swastika turns left, and is a completely different looking symbol IMO. Apparently Hitler made it turn right and diamond shaped to make it look more powerful/agressive.
So they are hardly the same symbol at all. They should make a distinction between the Nazi "Hakenkreuz" and the Hindu Swastika.
Abd_von_Mumit
02-11-07, 08:40 AM
The Hindu Swastika turns left, and is a completely different looking symbol IMO. Apparently Hitler made it turn right and diamond shaped to make it look more powerful/agressive.
So they are hardly the same symbol at all. They should make a distinction between the Nazi "Hakenkreuz" and the Hindu Swastika.
Hmm... Yes, but it's still a swastika, same simbol, as these are all just crosses:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Christian_cross.svg/150px-Christian_cross.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Greek_cross.svg/150px-Greek_cross.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/17/St_Brigid.png/150px-St_Brigid.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Flag_of_the_Red_Cross.svg/150px-Flag_of_the_Red_Cross.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Peter's_Cross.svg/160px-Peter's_Cross.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Maltese-Cross-Heraldry.svg/150px-Maltese-Cross-Heraldry.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Stjamescross.png
DaMaGe007
02-11-07, 09:05 AM
I like the Nazi Swasticka, I like the feeling of power and evil and dread assosiated with it. I would certainly prefer a WW2 game or movie to have it, and be used correctly. Its all part of the atmosphere as far as Im concerned.
Im not a Neo Nazi or Nazi, I dont idolize hitler or facizm, I think its a shame the EU and Germany think its people cant handle seeing it. I do agree they should have laws regarding neo nazi groups worshiping it tho.
Im all for a option in the settings to remove/replace the textures at the users choice but I dont like government cencorship of this part of history.
timmyg00
02-11-07, 09:13 AM
ridicules...vein...ridicules...thru...affending
Okay, since we're not worrying about what we say and how it affects others...
The words are
1) Ridiculous
2) Vain
3) Through
4) Offending
I also dislike so-called "political correctness", but on the other hand it doesn't take any effort at all to avoid pejorative and insulting terms. Using such terms in the name of "not being told what to do" is both childish and arrogant. I thoroughly dislike terrorists, but I don't make a habit of calling all Arabs "ragheads" or "towelheads".
When I was involved with killing them I did tend to refer to Vietnamese as "gooks", "slants" and "slopes". I don't anymore, even in fun. If you want to call the enemy "Japs" or "Nips" in your patrol reports and stories, that makes perfect sense, as it fits the context of the times. On the other hand, using those terms in your everyday posts is offensive, and you should try to avoid them where possible. Hey Steve, I agree with you on principle, but before you go lecturing anyone one how to "speak", take a look at your signature. It's loaded with ethnic stereotypes - 2 for each group mentioned, for a grand total of ten! Funny or not, they're still stereotypes, and violate the spirit of your posts in this thread...
Heaven: The police are British, the mechanics are German, the chefs are Italian, the lovers are French and everything is run by the Swiss.
Hell: The police are German, the mechanics are French, the chefs are British, the lovers are Swiss and everything is run by the Italians.
TG
Gizzmoe
02-11-07, 09:16 AM
I think its a shame the EU and Germany think its people cant handle seeing it.
You seem to think that this symbol has been banned. It hasn´t. We can see it on TV, in movies, books and so on.
Article 86a of the German penal code states that its use is allowed for "public education, prevention of hostile actions against the constitution, the use in art, science, schooling, news reports, historical reports and the like.".
DaMaGe007
02-11-07, 10:23 AM
Thats good, why do they take it out of games then ?
Dont they concider games an artform ? (I do, similar vein to movies)
I dont live in Germany so I did think it was banned atleast where possible, obviously history books and movies is a bit hard to do, but I seem to remember an airshow had it removed from one of the planes. What about museums ?
Gizzmoe
02-11-07, 10:45 AM
Thats good, why do they take it out of games then ?
Dont they concider games an artform ? (I do, similar vein to movies)
No.
I dont live in Germany so I did think it was banned atleast where possible, obviously history books and movies is a bit hard to do
Yep, but it´s for example also ok to show the swastika in comedy shows. There´s really not much censorship in that regard.
but I seem to remember an airshow had it removed from one of the planes.
Dunno if they had to remove it or if they´d removed because of PC.
What about museums ?
I´ve seen swastikas and Nazi/NSDAP flags in museums.
hyperion2206
02-11-07, 10:54 AM
Thats good, why do they take it out of games then ?
Dont they concider games an artform ? (I do, similar vein to movies)
No.
I dont live in Germany so I did think it was banned atleast where possible, obviously history books and movies is a bit hard to do
Yep, but it´s for example also ok to show the swastika in comedy shows. There´s really not much censorship in that regard.
but I seem to remember an airshow had it removed from one of the planes.
Dunno if they had to remove it or if they´d removed because of PC.
What about museums ?
I´ve seen swastikas and Nazi/NSDAP flags in museums.
I used to work in the 'Kölnisches Stadtmuseum' (a museum that is dedicated to the history of Cologne) and swastikas are at display.
I'm Japanese, and we really hate americans or people from other countires calling us "JAP".
I should say that as a moderator of Japanese forum....:nope: :nope: :nope: :nope: :nope:
Right? Zaza-san!
I'm Japanese, and we really hate americans or people from other countires calling us "JAP".
I should say that as a moderator of Japanese forum....:nope: :nope: :nope: :nope: :nope:
Right? Zaza-san!
I would suggest that Yattky has effectively settled this particular question...
Ducimus
02-11-07, 12:57 PM
Seems my point was missed.
Sarchasm:
"Ohhh NAZI FLAG NAZI SYMBOL. IM OFFENDED IT SHOULD BE BANNED!"
The swaztika under nazi germany is a ****load more offensive then the word "Jap".
If anyone japanese is offended... Well, im sorry, im not going to lose any sleep over it. Its WW2 slang, its a ww2 game,get over it
Now, im gonna say upfront right now, if Submsim is going to actively ban the use of the word jap because someone might have their feelings hurt. (boo hoo) THen they better stop the double standards around here, right here and now..
General forum for starters. Full of Anti islamic furor and and other poltiical hatred. Dont see anyone trying to put a cap on that. Then people have occasionaly used another offensive symbol, IE, the said swatzica.
If this place is gonna go PC, then one standard will do just nicely.
As it is, here's how this place is: "oh you can slam this religion 9 ways to sunday, or fly swazticas all over the place if you want, but don't you dare use the word jap!"
Suuuureeeee. Whatever.
EDIT:
Since no one seems to have problems with swaztica's, then none of this should be a problem either, right?!
http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/posters2/usa13.jpg
http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/posters2/usa23.jpg
http://z.about.com/d/history1900s/1/0/e/Q/wwiip117.jpg
http://z.about.com/d/history1900s/1/0/K/S/wwiip213.jpg
http://bss.sfsu.edu/internment/Assets/moreplg.jpg
http://bss.sfsu.edu/internment/Assets/licklg.jpg
http://bss.sfsu.edu/internment/Assets/stoplg.jpg
"Your a Sap Mr Jap" - WW2 popeye cartoon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEK45-_5y0s
Onkel Neal
02-11-07, 01:06 PM
I'm Japanese, and we really hate americans or people from other countires calling us "JAP".
I should say that as a moderator of Japanese forum....:nope: :nope: :nope: :nope: :nope:
Right? Zaza-san!
I would suggest that Yattky has effectively settled this particular question...
I agree. Yattky is a long time Subsim member. I appreciate his coming into this thread and letting us non-Japanese know.
I think that in historical context of a movie or the game, "Jap" will reflect the attitude of people at war. In our daily forum discussions, I would recommend using "Japanese" as much as possible. Consider it a small courtesy. thanks.
Subnuts
02-11-07, 01:24 PM
EDIT:
Since no one seems to have problems with swaztica's, then none of this should be a problem either, right?!
Interesting that the anti-German propaganda was never racially motivated. I guess "take that, you white European male!" just doesn't quite have the same pissiness.
Onkel Neal
02-11-07, 01:28 PM
If anyone japanese is offended... Well, im sorry, im not going to lose any sleep over it. Its WW2 slang, its a ww2 game,get over it
Now, im gonna say upfront right now, if Submsim is going to actively ban the use of the word jap because someone might have their feelings hurt. (boo hoo) THen they better stop the double standards around here, right here and now..
General forum for starters. Full of Anti islamic furor and and other poltiical hatred. Dont see anyone trying to put a cap on that. Then people have occasionaly used another offensive symbol, IE, the said swatzica.
As it is, here's how this place is: "oh you can slam this religion 9 ways to sunday, or fly swazticas all over the place if you want, but don't you dare use the word jap!"
Ducimus,
There is no, and can be no, hard, definite line about what is "permitted" and what is not; not in this forum nor in the world in general. This forum and website has a defined mission statement that clearly says"
Like something or dislike something about a game, express your thoughts in reasoned and responsible terms. There are any number of forums which allow unbridled idiocy to reign, we want the Radio Room to be a civil, mature forum for discussions about naval and subsims, tactics, mods, playing tips, troubleshooting, and submarine topics in general.
To hold that standard, sometimes discussions or the nature of discussions have to be moderated. In a lot of cases, it's a judgment call, and someone has to make the call. My judgment is not superior to yours or anyone else's. But, someone has to make the call, to maintain some kind of decorum. In a newspaper or magazine, it's the editor. In TV, the producer. Here, it's the admin and moderators, and they are all part of the community.
We have allowed discussion on religon and Muslim topics, and if you recall,when the discussions have grown too provacative and contentious, the topics have been closed. It's acceptable to point out the current state of affairs in the world, but not in a sustained, provacative manner that causes friction with other forum members.
This is not solely addressed to you, Ducimus, but to all of us. In the Internet world of chatrooms and forums, it's common for people to behave very badly to each other. In this forum, our goal is to behave as if you were in the same room with each other, with a little respect and tact, and courtesy. Just think, someday you may be able to attend a Subsim meet somewhere, and you will be meeting guys you have been speaking to in the forums. That has been the policy of this forum since it began in 1999.
Let's not turn this topic into the absolute philisophical battlefield that will straighten out the world for all time on the use of the term "Jap". As the topic starter Iron B. pointed out, the term is considered offensive to many Japanese. Yes, I sometimes agree that PC is silly and oppresive, sometimes I don't know what to call someone without offending them. Can I say "Jap" in a non-offensive, purely casual use? Would "Jap" have been okay if the U.S. government never used that term in war propaganda films, in effect tainting the word. Can I say "Brit"? "Frenchie?" "Redneck?" It gets to be a pain, worrying about every syllable that comes out. But regarding the term "Jap", I don't plan to strip to the waist and fight to the death to use it. I do not think it should be banned either, but if used in a hateful context, it will be addressed.
thanks
Neal
Torplexed
02-11-07, 01:32 PM
On the subject of flags I've always been sort of intrigued by the fact that the Japanese Maritime Self Defence Forces brought back the Rising Sun flag as a naval ensign in 1954. I was wondering if it causes any bad feelings when flown in Asian countries which chaffed under Japanese occupation. I've heard it rankles some veterans when Japanese ships visiting Pearl Harbour fly it. Perhaps because of it's more martial history it doesn't have the same political baggage as the 'German' swastika?
http://www.eskimo.com/%7Esnowfall/Naval-Ensign.jpg
Ducimus
02-11-07, 01:42 PM
My problem is, this "issue" strikes me on a personal level.
I have this one, big massive pet peeve that sets me off quicker then a stick of dynamite with a quickmatch fuse:
What is tantamount to special intrest groups, trying adjust the rules and laws so that im forced to live by THEIR standards or customs.
One example, i have BIG ISSUES with organized religion. My best example is my own kid brother is not allowed to celebrate Holloween anymore at school because some overly christionized dillweeds decided it was devil worship. So they got some city ordinace passed and theyre you go.
That, to me, is OUTRAGEOUS! When groups of people with a speical intrest do stuff like that, i tend to fight it. I dont care what it is, it just REALLY sets of me off how a small group of people can screw things up for everybody else - to have their garbage ramrodded down my throat. I really hate it, and all it does is motivate me to piss in those people's wheaties every chance i get. If someone just asked me on a personal level, "hey man, i really wish you could use some other word", thats one thing.
But when people make an issue about it, and try and ramrod it down my throat, i'll do the exact opposite because the very thought about those people getting their way like that ticks me off. I'ts one thing to ask me, it's another thing to make a lobby about it because it feels like a damn infringement on personal rights if/when they get their way, and to not fight back about it, is to let them "win", and that's just equally upsetting.
Onkel Neal
02-11-07, 01:48 PM
If someone just asked me on a personal level, "hey man, i really wish you could use some other word", thats one thing.
I understand, I feel the same way to a degree.
In the discussions on this forum, that's exactly what I am asking you and others; could we avoid using derogatory term "Jap" as much as possible. And to everyone, including anyone who may be offended by the term; if it is used on occasion, could you overlook it.
If everyone could exert a little self-control, things will be fine. :)
flintlock
02-11-07, 01:54 PM
In our daily forum discussions, I would recommend using "Japanese" as much as possible. Consider it a small courtesy. thanks.I'll certainly adhere to this more than reasonable request. In the end, I think it's good etiquette and shows respect to other forum members. And Honestly...is it really that much of a sacrifice?
TheSatyr
02-11-07, 02:34 PM
I think my problem is the immaturity level of people who have to use derogatory terms about any nationality in a game just for the immersion excuse.
I've hung around the battlefront.com website for years and this kind of thing would never have come up over there.
In fact those from battlefront.com that have been here once never go back since they consider Subsim as "internet kindergarden". Sorry Neal.
They see threads like this and threads such as ones about wanting to machine gun survivors and just roll their eyes. Threads like these do not help Subsims reputation among some of the other wargame sites.
Sadly,some of the things said in this thread and in a few others have caused me to decide to leave the subsim community. There seems to be too much racism and bigotry towards the Japanese people here,and too many people have tried to excuse away the killing of people in lifeboats. I just no longer wish to be associated with people that come off as racist bigots...or others who seem to be sorely lacking in morals or compassion.
Gizzmoe
02-11-07, 03:14 PM
I think my problem is the immaturity level of people who have to use derogatory terms about any nationality in a game just for the immersion excuse.
I've hung around the battlefront.com website for years and this kind of thing would never have come up over there.
Are you sure?
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Nuff said...
DaMaGe007
02-11-07, 03:15 PM
Well Battlefront.com sounds like a very one sided forum, do you all wear the same avatar and march in lines ?
Most likely all you have done is encouraged people to go there and start acting up.
I dont think Subsim needs to worry about thier reputation with other wargame sites, especially ones with such little tollerance.
flintlock
02-11-07, 03:28 PM
do you all wear the same avatar and march in lines ? No, because avatars aren't allowed on their forums. ;)
Sailor Steve
02-11-07, 03:29 PM
Hey Steve, I agree with you on principle, but before you go lecturing anyone one how to "speak", take a look at your signature. It's loaded with ethnic stereotypes - 2 for each group mentioned, for a grand total of ten! Funny or not, they're still stereotypes, and violate the spirit of your posts in this thread...
Point taken. I never even thought of that. Consider them gone.
flintlock
02-11-07, 03:31 PM
Point taken. Consider them gone.
Steve, all I can say is ... class act.
On the subject of flags I've always been sort of intrigued by the fact that the Japanese Maritime Self Defence Forces brought back the Rising Sun flag as a naval ensign in 1954. I was wondering if it causes any bad feelings when flown in Asian countries which chaffed under Japanese occupation. I've heard it rankles some veterans when Japanese ships visiting Pearl Harbour fly it. Perhaps because of it's more martial history it doesn't have the same political baggage as the 'German' swastika?
http://www.eskimo.com/%7Esnowfall/Naval-Ensign.jpgYes the fact that the same Japanese flags flown during the war years are back in many Asian countries does cause tension. Generally speaking these countries are now happy to have Japanese investment- on their terms. But the horrible wounds of the war years heal slowly.
Interestingly in Japan the naval SDF has a better rep as the war is largely blamed on the Army. Also the Navy was less willing to go to war with the US and UK than the army...but I suspect you knew that!
Oh and the fact that the same national anthem is being brought back is contraversial. Many teachers have lodged suit against the government after they were punished for not singing it. The problem with the anthem is that it simply extolls the Imperial Family and their reign.
DaMaGe007
02-11-07, 03:34 PM
do you all wear the same avatar and march in lines ? No, because avatars aren't allowed on their forums. ;)
Ouch, so they are just numbers eh :)
flintlock
02-11-07, 03:39 PM
Ouch, so they are just numbers eh :) Name, rank and serial number. Double-time, soldier!
My problem is, this "issue" strikes me on a personal level.
I have this one, big massive pet peeve that sets me off quicker then a stick of dynamite with a quickmatch fuse:
What is tantamount to special intrest groups, trying adjust the rules and laws so that im forced to live by THEIR standards or customs.
One example, i have BIG ISSUES with organized religion. My best example is my own kid brother is not allowed to celebrate Holloween anymore at school because some overly christionized dillweeds decided it was devil worship. So they got some city ordinace passed and theyre you go.
That, to me, is OUTRAGEOUS! When groups of people with a speical intrest do stuff like that, i tend to fight it. I dont care what it is, it just REALLY sets of me off how a small group of people can screw things up for everybody else - to have their garbage ramrodded down my throat. I really hate it, and all it does is motivate me to piss in those people's wheaties every chance i get. If someone just asked me on a personal level, "hey man, i really wish you could use some other word", thats one thing.
But when people make an issue about it, and try and ramrod it down my throat, i'll do the exact opposite because the very thought about those people getting their way like that ticks me off. I'ts one thing to ask me, it's another thing to make a lobby about it because it feels like a damn infringement on personal rights if/when they get their way, and to not fight back about it, is to let them "win", and that's just equally upsetting.
Ducimus, I completely understand. Guess I just made things worse by running on about the issue. It was not my intention to antagonize you. The thing is I've had friends who were victims of racist violence- some fools threw rocks through their windshield while calling them Japs. They weren't hurt physically, but it shames me that they were treated so badly in my country.
I do think it is best if we don't tie this issue to all our outside subsim issues though. So I'll drop it.
:ping:
DaMaGe007
02-11-07, 03:44 PM
Ouch, so they are just numbers eh :) Name, rank and serial number. Double-time, soldier!
Sir Yes Sir ! Zeig Heil !
Oops I forgot which army I was in...
dean_acheson
02-11-07, 05:55 PM
When I am getting shot at, I use lots of neato phrases.... ;)
Onkel Neal
02-11-07, 06:01 PM
I've hung around the battlefront.com website for years and this kind of thing would never have come up over there.
In fact those from battlefront.com that have been here once never go back since they consider Subsim as "internet kindergarden". Sorry Neal.
Really? I guess we'll have to do better. :)
Torplexed
02-11-07, 06:01 PM
Yes the fact that the same Japanese flags flown during the war years are back in many Asian countries does cause tension. Generally speaking these countries are now happy to have Japanese investment- on their terms. But the horrible wounds of the war years heal slowly.
Interestingly in Japan the naval SDF has a better rep as the war is largely blamed on the Army. Also the Navy was less willing to go to war with the US and UK than the army...but I suspect you knew that!
Oh and the fact that the same national anthem is being brought back is contraversial. Many teachers have lodged suit against the government after they were punished for not singing it. The problem with the anthem is that it simply extolls the Imperial Family and their reign.
Thanks for the info U-Dog.
Although a US citizen I was born in Japan and lived as a youth in Okinawa at Kadena AFB. I made the mistake of using the term 'Jap" once and got a severe reprimand from my Master Sargent father. Haven't used it since. ;)
DanCanovas
02-11-07, 06:13 PM
Hey Steve, I agree with you on principle, but before you go lecturing anyone one how to "speak", take a look at your signature. It's loaded with ethnic stereotypes - 2 for each group mentioned, for a grand total of ten! Funny or not, they're still stereotypes, and violate the spirit of your posts in this thread...
Point taken. I never even thought of that. Consider them gone.
No that was an ace signature!! :o
Personally I`d consider the use of terms like "Jap" and similiar OK in the terms of gaming. If I speak about WWII games and anything that goes around I refer to "Japs" "Krauts" "Amis" et c. - since it`s just a game and I`m just talking about gaming - not players, not the opponents... planes downed, ships sunk et c. et c. So tin cans go there ase well. But I`m not using such words when talking about anyone in person - personally I don`t find them to be polite. Some of my best friends are Japanese and I wouldn`t think calling them "Japs" or any offensive word. Also because I don`t want to be known as a rude moron from somewhere in Europe. But that`s just my opinion...
Bringing some issues on: I don`t find German Swastika offensive per se, the same with any other flag or insignia that is there. And the same with some words - people should be allowed to use it and a simple ban is not very reasonable as it`s all the matter of context and strongly depends on it.
For example: I don`t find Swastika and SS signs offensive, when I see them on a box of a plastic model kit. It`s more like a historical insignia.
But when it appears among skinheads, screaming "sieg heil" everything is so much damn different.
So I don`t find it really offensive when someone here uses "Japs" as long as it`s not pointed at Japanese. Yattky has said it was offensive, the issue has been IMHO solved.
IRONxMortlock
02-11-07, 07:02 PM
I don't know if "Jap" is a slur that Japanese find offensive or not. I use it as short for Japanese, but if I found using it was causing friction, I would not use it.
Yes, it is offensive.
Regarding the comments made by TheSatyr:
I have been hanging around the Battlefront.com forums for years (more of a lurker than a poster), and while the folks there are fantastically knowledgeable about WWII history they are also prone to having giant pissing matches...
There have been numerous threads about the use of swastikas in games that degenerated into political arguments complete with name-calling - heck, I have seen several threads where debates over the relative merits of German vs. Allied tanks wound up as insult-fests. Having said that, part of the culture at Battlefront.com is to debate issues in a somewhat belligerent manner, so if you hang around there that's what you get... It can be fun at times.
I would say that overall this forum (although less serious in tone) has way less stupid fights and dumbass behaviour than Battlefront.com. As a long-time member of both forums I thought I would chuck in my $0.02...
timmyg00
02-11-07, 09:08 PM
Hey Steve, I agree with you on principle, but before you go lecturing anyone one how to "speak", take a look at your signature. It's loaded with ethnic stereotypes - 2 for each group mentioned, for a grand total of ten! Funny or not, they're still stereotypes, and violate the spirit of your posts in this thread...
Point taken. I never even thought of that. Consider them gone. You're a good man... probably better than me :)
TG
timmyg00
02-11-07, 09:13 PM
I think my problem is the immaturity level of people who have to use derogatory terms about any nationality in a game just for the immersion excuse.
I've hung around the battlefront.com website for years and this kind of thing would never have come up over there.
Are you sure?
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Nuff said... BUSTED :lol:
I wish people who say they're "leaving" the forum would just leave and shut up about it, instead of trying to grab their last bit of holier-than-thou, you-guys-suck glory before they go, or acting as if people were going to apologize and beg them to stay. Don't let the hatch hit you in the a$$ on the way out, mate.
TG
Mush Martin
02-11-07, 09:26 PM
the correct name for the enemy should be "the enemy"
it wont matter which side your on
everyone will know who your talking about.
Just for the record it is innefficient to hate your enemy
however its good to make them angry upset and off balance.
MM
Onkel Neal
02-11-07, 10:34 PM
I don't know if "Jap" is a slur that Japanese find offensive or not. I use it as short for Japanese, but if I found using it was causing friction, I would not use it.
Yes, it is offensive.
Fair enough, I won't use it.
THE_MASK
02-11-07, 10:53 PM
Some poeple would be horrified to know that on australian anzac day , the national tv broadcaster shows old news reel footages . One i remember from a couple of years ago was a life boet filled with Japanese and the footage from the plane as he strafes them and the commentary went something like " those nips will cop it now "
nattydread
02-11-07, 11:11 PM
"Japs" is just the shortened form of "Japanese". It's like a nickname.
Likewise, "Nips" is the short form of "Nipponese" (Nippon = Japan) ... ditto.
Were I a German citizen, I might find "Krauts" annoying, since it stereotypes Germans as sauerkraut eaters, which is silly. However, I don't think I'd find it to be particularly bigoted. But... I'm not a German citizen, so I really don't have a frame of reference for an informed opinion.
There are far worse epithets that could be, and have been, used to describe any given racial or ethnic group. I think shortened forms of acceptable terms are, by extension, also acceptable (As a citizen of the U.S., I reference the term "Yanks", as our British friends call us... hardly an offensive term...)
TG
Ok, lets be real, Americans didnt call them Japs and Nips because they liked them, knew them, identified with them, grew up with them on the block, had slumber parties with them on weekends or respected them. They called them these names at a time when we were at war with, while upset, while feeling violated, while wanting to kill them and on some level desiring to exterminate them as people. It was a name that grew in hostile times, with hostile thoughts, fears and a general air of racial tension and public acceptance for racist attitudes.
The Japanese wouldnt have accepted these "nickname" from us anymore than you'd accept the nickname given to you by some one you deem hostile or that you have conflict with. You'd never freely accept the nickname gievn you by a bully or someone you hated. When your at each other's throats and trying to kill the other, no name you come up with for the other will have any friendly, nice or good intentions behind it. Its a slur, plain and simple. The only difference is the name hasnt been challenged or question on any large social level. But then again, being called a ****** didnt either until about a couple of generations ago, it didnt mean African-Americans didnt like being called that until the '60s(yes, Im Black).
I assure you when my Viet-Nam vet father uses the term "Gook", that it has no good intentions behind it, its laced with pain, hurt and anger. Jap and Nip carried the same.
Im not going to tell you not to use it, that argument will take too much energy and generally its wasted breath on those who have yet to understand and crasp on a larger social level why it shouldnt be used. But lets not fool ourselves, if your going to enjoy its use, be real. Accept it for what it is, and accept your contribution and participation in it.
No hard feelings on my part(and hopefully none on yours), I've said my piece, its added into the conversation, you weigh its merit just like everyone elses comments. I will say that it may be a bit easier for me to identify, and perhaps easy for me to make more of it also, because Im a minority...been there, done that.
p.s. please dont lock the thread or be scared to further discuss the matter on my part. Its a reasonable discussion topic.
Onkel Neal
02-11-07, 11:20 PM
"Japs" is just the shortened form of "Japanese". It's like a nickname.
Likewise, "Nips" is the short form of "Nipponese" (Nippon = Japan) ... ditto.
Were I a German citizen, I might find "Krauts" annoying, since it stereotypes Germans as sauerkraut eaters, which is silly. However, I don't think I'd find it to be particularly bigoted. But... I'm not a German citizen, so I really don't have a frame of reference for an informed opinion.
There are far worse epithets that could be, and have been, used to describe any given racial or ethnic group. I think shortened forms of acceptable terms are, by extension, also acceptable (As a citizen of the U.S., I reference the term "Yanks", as our British friends call us... hardly an offensive term...)
TG
Ok, lets be real, Americans didnt call them Japs and Nips because they liked them, knew them, identified with them, grew up with them on the block, had slumber parties with them on weekends or respected them. They called them these names at a time when we were at war with, while upset, while feeling violated, while wanting to kill them and on some level desiring to exterminate them as people. It was a name that grew in hostile times, with hostile thoughts, fears and a general air of racial tension and public acceptance for racist attitudes.
The Japanese wouldnt have accepted these "nickname" from us anymore than you'd accept the nickname given to you by some one you deem hostile or that you have conflict with. You'd never freely accept the nickname gievn you by a bully or someone you hated. When your at each other's throats and trying to kill the other, no name you come up with for the other will have any friendly, nice or good intentions behind it. Its a slur, plain and simple. The only difference is the name hasnt been challenged or question on any large social level. But then again, being called a ****** didnt either until about a couple of generations ago, it didnt mean African-Americans didnt like being called that until the '60s(yes, Im Black).
I assure you when my Viet-Nam vet father uses the term "Gook", that it has no good intentions behind it, its laced with pain, hurt and anger. Jap and Nip carried the same.
Im not going to tell you not to use it, that argument will take too much energy and generally its wasted breath on those who have yet to understand and crasp on a larger social level why it shouldnt be used. But lets not fool ourselves, if your going to enjoy its use, be real. Accept it for what it is, and accept your contribution and participation in it.
No hard feelings on my part(and hopefully none on yours), I've said my piece, its added into the conversation, you weigh its merit just like everyone elses comments. I will say that it may be a bit easier for me to identify, and perhaps easy for me to make more of it also, because Im a minority...been there, done that.
p.s. please dont lock the thread or be scared to further discuss the matter on my part. Its a reasonable discussion topic.
Well said, Natty. :yep: These type of terms were used in times of hate and intolerance. We can do without them.
I want Japanese subsim players to feel welcome here, same with all people. I think the main thing to keep in mind, we here in this forum, are from all over the world. It's more important to extend a hand of friendship than the hate-shaking fist.
Neal
Immacolata
02-12-07, 05:24 AM
The word for today ladies and gent's is.....
Context.
And
Political Correctness
How I hate people who are 'politcal correct'!:p:rotfl:
I just like people that behave well.
I haven't read yet all of thread where posted here.
I can say as subsim member ,that people of here
doesn't use Jap for offense words.Just easy to write.
Yes I know :up: I don't matter now.
But if I see words "Jap " as a non registered General Japanese,
a little bit sad and feel what a non educational peoples are in here !
Here is international famous forum.
And many nations coming here.
So I want know to all of here,
Not all of but some of Japanese doen' t feel good
if see the word "JAP" .
Hmmm hard to discuss this matter in English....
flintlock
02-12-07, 12:09 PM
Hmmm hard to discuss this matter in English.... Thanks for weighing your opinion into the discussion, zaza. You got your point across perfectly. Your English excellent, and a lot better than my Japanese. I respect the fact that many Japanese people and some community members here find it disparaging, thus I won't use it, even under the guise of it being contextually accurate in the historical era covered by SH4.
Ducimus
02-12-07, 01:43 PM
I think my problem is the immaturity level of people who have to use derogatory terms about any nationality in a game just for the immersion excuse.
I've hung around the battlefront.com website for years and this kind of thing would never have come up over there.
Are you sure?
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Nuff said... BUSTED :lol:
I wish people who say they're "leaving" the forum would just leave and shut up about it, instead of trying to grab their last bit of holier-than-thou, you-guys-suck glory before they go, or acting as if people were going to apologize and beg them to stay. Don't let the hatch hit you in the a$$ on the way out, mate.
TG
As they say on many messageboards throughout the internet.....
http://www.ducimus.net/blee.gif
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geetrue
02-12-07, 02:09 PM
The Hindu Swastika turns left, and is a completely different looking symbol IMO. Apparently Hitler made it turn right and diamond shaped to make it look more powerful/agressive.
So they are hardly the same symbol at all. They should make a distinction between the Nazi "Hakenkreuz" and the Hindu Swastika.
Hmm... Yes, but it's still a swastika, same simbol, as these are all just crosses:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Christian_cross.svg/150px-Christian_cross.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Greek_cross.svg/150px-Greek_cross.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/17/St_Brigid.png/150px-St_Brigid.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Flag_of_the_Red_Cross.svg/150px-Flag_of_the_Red_Cross.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Peter's_Cross.svg/160px-Peter's_Cross.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Maltese-Cross-Heraldry.svg/150px-Maltese-Cross-Heraldry.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Stjamescross.png
My cross stands for forgiveness ... :know:
sunvalleyslim
02-12-07, 05:34 PM
Nattydread,
Well stated and accurate........words are words.....and some can be offended by such, even if no foul intended.......
anzacmick
02-13-07, 04:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRONxMortlock
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal Stevens
I don't know if "Jap" is a slur that Japanese find offensive or not. I use it as short for Japanese, but if I found using it was causing friction, I would not use it.
Yes, it is offensive.
without deliberatly raisin a **** storm......
why is it offensive? and How is it offensive?
nip=nippon, japans old world name jap=japanese aussie=australian
pom=english kiwi=new zealander canuck=canadian yanks=US kraut=german
quite simple nikterms i woulda thought, hardy deriding or hateful.... now gook or chink or sommet...that would be offensive and derogitory, and tottally outa order for today.
So the whole offensive thing has me puzzled, especially from japanese perspective, whos government still to this day fail to reconize their war crimes and commited attrocities against allied POW`s.
My grandfather was lost to the Burma railway and I personnally find the minority argument of the word jap or nip being politically correct or offensive a travesty for those brave men. Theyd be rollin in their graves im sure....
Names calling, nicknames and such is quite a cultural thing in Australia, has been and always will be and we actually take pride in the derogitry terms aimed at us.
(comes from the convict days) Look at the Rats of Tobruk for example, the term was meant as a heinous insult to our fightin men in north afrika at their futility and desperate situation. We took it on as a badge to wear with pride, and gave the "krauts" their first taste of loss of the war, after so many easy success`s.
Imagine the reverse phychology? defeated by mere rats...bit like "theAshes" this year against England in the cricket...Dads army they called our team...we loved it and whupped them 5 zip in the series.....hehe..
...Remember the ol` :
sticks n stones will break my bones...;) the world needs to get a tougher skin or remember this nursery rhyme.
oh...and BTW that hindi swastika: it means "life" and its over 2500 years old... food for thought:|\\
DaMaGe007
02-13-07, 04:50 AM
Too bloody right cobba I agree.
My Grandfather served on a Allied Submarine in the war, He was held down and tattooed against his will, and these were the men serving with him. His best friend Exploded right next to him (not my description), he was shot in the leg (not sure if it was disiplinary or enemy fire)
The submarine was sunk, he was one of the "lucky" ones and survived.
And people think they are suffering from name calling or abreviations.
Steeltrap
02-13-07, 10:24 AM
I find this thread is interesting on a number of fronts.
Racism or racist are terms I can't find in a dictionary of 1949 vintage. My understanding of literal meaning is that it pertains to treating/thinking about a person differently on the grounds of their race.
To say a word is racist is, to my mind, a nonsense. Words can be derogatory, perjorative, demeaning, dismissive, disrespectful etc...but not racist per se, as words themselves do not think/behave.
It is only when behaviour is involved that racism etc. becomes possible.
That, to me, is one of the biggest issues surrounding PC and the whole racism 'debate' (not that most of it qualifies as a debate, hence the inverted commas).
Ask for a translation of 'gwai loh' or 'faan gwai loh'. Not hard to hear those terms in Asian countries. Ask that Japanese about the Ainu, about citizenship for 'comfort women' (forceably removed from parts of Asia, particularly Korea, to serve as forced prostitutes by Japanese military in WWII), about land ownership for non-Japanese etc.... and see what reply you get. THOSE behaviours, singly a group or groups out and treating them defferently from the rest of society on the grounds of race are the very essence of racism. Japanese history books covering WWII are the things of fantasy (before anyone asks, a long term girlfriend of mine - fluent in Japanese - lived and taught in Japan for four years. She would find this all very illuminating....compared with the constant racial/sexual abuse she copped as a tall, good looking caucasian woman).
All this talk about words is too rich.......and it gives us an easy out for, while we all bark like trained seals at anyone using them, an actual discussion of the REAL problems is conveniently drowned out.
Having said all that, I don't support using words that are abusive etc (see initial list of attributes), but please let's not call them racist.
Incidentally, there's a wonderful quote in the front of the dictionary to which I referred:
"Words are the dress of thoughts, which should no more be presented in rags, tatters, and dirt, than your person should."
Earl of Chesterfield
Shame our current age seems to value bling more than genuine style and taste - at least when it comes to expression.
Cheers all!
(haven't been around for a while)
IRONxMortlock
02-14-07, 12:03 AM
nip=nippon, japans old world name jap=japanese aussie=australian
pom=english kiwi=new zealander canuck=canadian yanks=US kraut=german
Yes and abo=Aborigine
Yet are you going to walk down the street in Redfern calling people "Abos"? No, you wouldn't dare. Just like you wouldn't call people "nips" or "japs" if you were to walk around the streets of Tokyo. Why? Well I'd hope that you'd avoid using those terms out of basic courtesy and respect for other people. When not sitting safely behind the anonymity of an ADSL connection your own personal safety is perhaps also a likely factor.
You see this is what happens on the internet. Suddenly under the guise of free speech people feel they have the right to insult one another. What is offensive to one person may not be offensive to another. I generally swear and curse like a sailor but I don't do this when I feel (and especially when I know) that someone will be offended by the use of certain words. That's why I don't write swear words on this forum; I know some people will be offended and I adjust my language accordingly. This is not a matter of freedom of speech, it is a matter of manners and being considerate to other people's feelings.
FACT: Japanese people find it very offensive when called "jap" and "nip".
It doesn't matter why Japanese people find it offensive. It is offensive, plain and simple. The actions of the Japanese over sixty years ago doesn't provide you carte blanche to insult the Japanese today (most Japanese alive today were not even born during WW2).
Use those terms if you must but be aware you will be hurting the feelings of the Japanese subsimers every time you do. This is a community and as such I think it is important to respect its members. You don't show respect when you knowingly insult someone.
Peace,
M
anzacmick
02-14-07, 02:30 AM
steeltraps on the money.....and I stand by what ive said....
You see this is what happens on the internet. Suddenly under the guise of free speech people feel they have the right to insult one another.
IRONxMortlock...who did i insult?
I asked the questions and offered my opinion, that is all.
Far as i knew, forum debate is free speech within reason.
no shame here...no racism either... just the facts ma`am....
fullmetaledges
02-14-07, 03:42 AM
I see a few times in this disscussion that "the americans were racist against the japanese". Keep in mind that the japanese military in the first half of the 20th century looked upon anyone who was not japanese as sub human. The japanese military commited just as many if not more war atrocities as nazi germany. Things ranging from, using prisoners as live bayonet practice, beheading prisoners, eating prisoners, cutting open live prisoners so there surgens in training could study the human body at work and testing the effects of various ammunition on live prisoners. Look at the thousands of people they massacured in china. My point to all this is that for the most part this stuff is lost to history but before you start calling all the americans who hated the japanese in ww2 racists take a step back and look at why the japanese were so hated. I can't blame them for feeling the way they they did.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-03/30/xin_2903023013331181790217.jpg
nattydread
02-14-07, 04:48 AM
I see a few times in this disscussion that "the americans were racist against the japanese". Keep in mind that the japanese military in the first half of the 20th century looked upon anyone who was not japanese as sub human. The japanese military commited just as many if not more war atrocities as nazi germany. Things ranging from, using prisoners as live bayonet practice, beheading prisoners, eating prisoners, cutting open live prisoners so there surgens in training could study the human body at work and testing the effects of various ammunition on live prisoners. Look at the thousands of people they massacured in china. My point to all this is that for the most part this stuff is lost to history but before you start calling all the americans who hated the japanese in ww2 racists take a step back and look at why the japanese were so hated. I can't blame them for feeling the way they they did.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-03/30/xin_2903023013331181790217.jpg
Very true. I dont think anyone was trying to say the Japanese were innocent and of no wrong doing...no nation is. The point that was being made was that the American sentiment behind these "nicknames" was one of hate, anger, fear, racism or prejudice, and that the contiuned use of such names born from that sentiment is unacceptable in itself, and unacceptable because it is deem insulting by those the nicknames were intended.
If past atrocities is enough, then I could go about spouting all kind of hatered(If my info is right, Im only 3-4 generations out of slavery, 1 generation to vote and basic civil rights), but I'd be a lesser person if I did, that hatered would have no positive or constructive basis but to spread my anger and my anxse(spelling?). Its use and my defense of it use would be to only allow me to hide behind that anger without really dealing with it, or Im making an excuse to use this as means to lash out as transference from other sources of dissatisfaction. It would be more of a sign of my general state of unhappiness, anger, fear, etc in my life.
To be upset about things is normal, but to use that anger as justification to step out of that realm and spew poison freely in others is irresponsible.
Yes we have have free speech and other wonderful rights and liberities, but with these rights comes responsibilty in how we use it. Responisbilty to self, but also to the larger community, society and so forth. Granted we have the right to be ass-hats with these liberties, but its such a waste.
Also, various atrocities committed by the Japanese military, not neccessarily its general population, was done by a small minority soldiers(maninly Japanese Army). It was an unfortunate practice pushed by a portion of the higher command. It turns out many of the more common, peasant conscripts didnt have the desire or stomach to do such things and these tasks were forced upon them under threat.
Also the act of cannibalism was two pronged. Some of the leaders in command felt they could absorb the strengths of their enemies through the eating of their flesh. But it turns out much of the cannibalism was out of true hunger, and the eating of humans wasnt only practied on the enemy, but also on fellow soldiers. The Japanese had no desire, nor the ability to engage in a prolonged war of attrition. They didnt have the resources to support their troops and required the troops from the beginning to aquire resources from the area the best they could. It was literally eat or be eaten.
Anyway, Im not here in defense of the Japanese, but in the defense of common descency.
So if some of you are right, we should campaign for the forum to become uncensored, and allow all words including all forms of swearing. After all they're all just words... would be fine by be me.
I'm not someone who can get offended by single words, rather statements or deeds.
So if you're going on the principle "it's just a word", then allow one offensive word you have to allow them all.
Personally I don't know how the word Jap is offensive because it's just a shortening of the word Japanese, just like Aussie is a shoterening of Australian. Maybe the difference is we chose our nickname for ourselves.
I don't see why abo is offensive either, but Ironxmortlock is right, I sure wouldn't be going around saying it in Redfern. But I get a feeling minorities like to make up little taboos like this to piss of their former oppressors. Like the stereotype of the black man "what do you mean you people, you think we're all the same, don't you", and the polite unknowing white man not being able to come to words... :rotfl:
Which brings me to something I've just thought of. Maybe Aboriginals, Native Americans, Blacks, etc. deserve not to be caused offence because generally white people treated them like crap a while back.
Should Japan deserve the same respect, considering it's past? If we let bygones be bygones we should be able to call everyone what we like. So if we should forget what the Japanese did, we should also distance ourselves from our past with the Aboriginals. After all, that was generations ago.
I grew up as a German in Australia, and had to put up with various forms of racisim, being called a Nazi and such. But I took it on the chin and lived with it. As my army Sergeant always used to say, "Dry your eyes princess, and harden up sunshine!":D
IRONxMortlock
02-14-07, 05:01 AM
IRONxMortlock...who did i insult?
I asked the questions and offered my opinion, that is all.
Far as i knew, forum debate is free speech within reason.
no shame here...no racism either... just the facts ma`am....
Read carefully and you'll notice that I didn't claim you insulted anyone. In the interests of "forum debate" I explained that using "nip" and "jap" (terms which you appeared to be defending the use of) IS offensive.
If you were to use these terms, then you could safely assume that you will be insulting the Japanese people who read them.
hyperion2206
02-14-07, 05:08 AM
I guess you can only be offended if you want to be offended. One time I was in London with some firends of mine and some Brits;) started singing "There were ten German bombers in the air". They wanted to exasperate us but we thought it was plain funny. They stopped before the song was over.:cry:
I guess what I want to say is that 'Kraut' or 'Jap' are no words that came just like that, you have to look at the historical context. And if you understand why they were used one shouldn't be offended anymore. At least I'm not, in fact I'm a proud Kraut.:lol:
Another thing I wanted to say...
the difference between saying abo in Redfern, and saying Jap in Tokyo... In Redfern you'd get beat up. :yep:
... but when talking to people I'm a polite kind of person and wouldn't say anything offensive to anyone I didn't know.
nattydread
02-14-07, 05:21 AM
Hey, if you chose to embrace that name, thats fine. Its not the first time a group as accepted a derogatory nickname as their own. My understanding is Chicano was once derogatory, but then became accepted by that group...but that group accepted it. Until i get a since that the Japanese has embraced the word, I wont use it. If some memebers of that group accept it and others dont, i'll hedge my usage on the side of safety, responsibilty and consideration and use it only in company that i know wont be offended, if i use it at all.
hyperion2206
02-14-07, 05:38 AM
When you read all the AAR of SH3 you'll hardly find anyone saying 'I sank 2 Brits and 3 yanks' so I guess that hardly anybody will say that they sank any 'Japs'. But since it is a simulation I think everybody should be allowed to say that 'I have sunk some Jap tin cans'. Calling somebody a 'Jap' e.g. should however not be tolerated.
wow
7 pages discussing the word "jap"
DaMaGe007
02-14-07, 06:17 AM
wow
7 pages discussing the word "jap"
Amazing isnt it, but we are discussing alot of aspects surrounding its use, and we could go another hunderd pages and still not come to an agreement or concencus.
The word is not going to go away, it will always be used, which is why people make the bad a good so it doesnt upset them unless it words around it indicate TRUE racism, and I cant see any of that happening on these forums.
It helps to build a stronger charactor, if it upsets you (and you dont like being upset), only you can change your thinking so it doesnt, people will always use it so its best to accept it and wear it with pride. It doesnt make you less of a man.
DaMaGe007
02-14-07, 06:30 AM
I also find it amusing that the person who started the thread posted once and hasnt participated in the discussion beyond the first post. Usually people comment on the comments in a thread they start.
"I could be opening a can of worms here..."
Its amazing that the discussion has been so cordial, previous threads havent been so lucky.
hyperion2206
02-14-07, 06:36 AM
I also find it amusing that the person who started the thread posted once and hasnt participated in the discussion beyond the first post. Usually people comment on the comments in a thread they start.
"I could be opening a can of worms here..."
Its amazing that the discussion has been so cordial, previous threads havent been so lucky.
I guess we've learned our lesson.;) Sorry again for pissing you off on the other thread I had started.:)
DaMaGe007
02-14-07, 06:46 AM
I was refering to previous threads refering to the "Japs" issue, not the thread you made the other day hyperion.
I didnt have much of a problem with you to be honest, if my comment wasnt funny to you thats quite ok, I was arguing against the cencorship of somthing I concided acceptable and by arguing with you and the mods we may come to an understanding.
My comments regarding "The Germans combining forces" was just my sence of humour continuing, trying to indiacte I wasnt upset in a big way, more disapointed...
So you have no need to be sorry mate :)
IRONxMortlock
02-14-07, 07:27 AM
Another thing I wanted to say...
the difference between saying abo in Redfern, and saying Jap in Tokyo... In Redfern you'd get beat up. :yep:
Hehe, I think you should rephrase that to say, " the difference between saying abo in Redfern, and saying Jap in Tokyo... In Redfern you'd get beat up faster. " :p
... but when talking to people I'm a polite kind of person and wouldn't say anything offensive to anyone I didn't know.
Exactly:yep:
Spaxspore
02-14-07, 10:32 AM
Last time i checked Japanese wasnt a race... its a a person/place/or thing originating (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=wVg&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=originating&spell=1) from the country of japan.
SO saying jap is short for japanese, i dont see how thats racists, like i said japan is a country not a race.
The
Japanses People's ethnicity (IE race) is asian (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=ToL&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=asian+&spell=1)
Thus in my humble opinion how can the word "jap" be considered a racist slur, since in all good intention its really an abreviation of the word japan/japanese.
Just my 2 cents in the bucket.
I'm pretty sure Japanese are able to tell their own race apart from other asian races. There are a number of different races in asia including Japanese, chinese, mongol, indonesian, indian, persian etc.
Abd_von_Mumit
02-14-07, 10:46 AM
Last time i checked Japanese wasnt a race... its a a person/place/or thing originating (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=wVg&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=originating&spell=1) from the country of japan.
SO saying jap is short for japanese, i dont see how thats racists, like i said japan is a country not a race.
The
Japanses People's ethnicity (IE race) is asian (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=ToL&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=asian+&spell=1)
Thus in my humble opinion how can the word "jap" be considered a racist slur, since in all good intention its really an abreviation of the word japan/japanese.
Just my 2 cents in the bucket.
The word racism doesn't name only strictly racial superstitions etc., but also ethnical, religious etc. It's very closely related to xenophobia. Antisemitism is a form of racism too, but noone says Jews are a separate race. In fact the term of 'race' hasn't been used much recently, as the researchers (biologists, geneticians, antropologists) prefer to use more modern terms, like 'type', 'family' (but, sorry, I am NOT sure of English words for them, as I read only some Polish-language literature on the topic).
Theres no reason to think the Jews are not a race. The European Ashkenazi Jews are genetically different from the rest of central europeans, having kept marriages within the jewish community. Same deal with sephardic Jews in the middle east. Sure, there was intermarrying with Europeans and Arabs respectively, to create the two separate subraces. Jews originated from the middle east and emmigrated to Europe far later than the "native" white population.
And Nazi propaganda aside, don't tell me you can't tell a Jew when you see one, not always of course.
Abd_von_Mumit
02-14-07, 11:06 AM
Theres no reason to think the Jews are not a race. The European Ashkenazi Jews are genetically different from the rest of central europeans, having kept marriages within the jewish community. Same deal with sephardic Jews in the middle east. Sure, there was intermarrying with Europeans and Arabs respectively, to create the two separate subraces. Jews originated from the middle east and emmigrated to Europe far later than the "native" white population.
And Nazi propaganda aside, don't tell me you can't tell a Jew when you see one, not always of course.
Usually I can't tell for the first look. Visit Israel, you are going to be shocked seeing blue-eyed blond-haired Jews there quite often. If we wanted to have a discussion about races, we'd have to find, what we understand under that term. Have a look at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race
and pick one of the word meanings. :D
EDIT: Now I see I've messed up the terminology. I meant "species", not race... I hereby delete part of my post. :D
AVGWarhawk
02-14-07, 11:12 AM
Lets just have posts with 'JP' for Japanse and we use 'Capitalist Warmonger' for the Americans. Use 'CW' for short. Just kidding. Look, I personally see 'Jap' as a slur. I do not find it offensive but in respect for the Japanese, I do not use the word. In respect for me, I hope the Japanses don't use "Cracker", "Whitey" or "Honkie". I do not use ethnic slurs with any race and I hope they would not with me. In the mutual respect for each other, these words are not needed. I for one will use Japanese.
Onkel Neal
02-14-07, 11:19 AM
ahoy all,
Ok, this thread has run its course so I am going to file it away. We've had a reasonable discussion about the term "Jap", established that it is considered by Japanese to be a slur, and I request we refrain from using it. If it does appear infrequently, let's not go red alert over it. Thanks.
Neal
Subsim
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