Thermal Layers

[paxromana]

Hi all

I´ve been away for several months, and i dont know if they will be included in the game.

I already know that they werent present in SH3 due to "limitations in the engine", but i think that they must be present now because the engagements at the Pacific Theater were at much less depth than in the Atlantic.

P.D - Sorry if this question has been asked before

[StandingCow]

Yea, I brought this up in another thread.. thermal layers are apparently much deeper in the Atlantic than they were the the pacific.. deeper than subs could go, so that is one reason they were not added.

However, they are a big part of the pacific theater... so.. I dunno, I will submit this question on the ubi forums.

EDIT: submitted, hopefully they will answer, on there I am meguassb.

[The General]

I used to love Red Storm Rising on the C64. They had thermal layers on that. Did they know about thermal layers in WWII?

[Iron Budokan]

Yes, they knew about thermal layers. Buchheim talks about them in his book Das Boot and also mentions how the ocean is stratified like sedimentary layers. He also mentions how they knew if they went below a layer of algae that helpled avoid Asdic, too.

[flintlock]

thermal layers are apparently much deeper in the Atlantic than they were the the pacific.. deeper than subs could go

I keep reading on posts on this forum where people state, matter of fact, that thermal layers were deeper than WWII subs could reach. I wanted to attempt to clear this up, but in the end may simply add to the confusion (hopefully not).

Disclaimer: I am no scientist and this is post is not directed at you or anyone in particular.

I believe thermal layers were well within the reach of subs. As a phenomenon, random element, I'm guessing these would be pretty dynamic and geographically localized. From what I have read, admittedly little, these could occur within the oceans thermocline layer. This is the layer directly below the mixed layer and where the temperature of water changes rapidly with depth. We know that once you get below the mixed layer (isothermal conditions) and prior to reaching the deep layer (isothermal conditions again), the temperature of the water decreases. As I understand it, the thermal layer is the phenomenon where you get a temperature increase within a thin boundary layer, before it would decrease again. There are many accounts where submariners during WWII said they managed to get below these in the Atlantic.

Again, I'm no scientist, so I'm simply going on what limited research I've done myelf. It's just that I keep seeing posts by people exclaiming, in a matter of fact fashion, certain things as fact. Fair enough, though if you're uncertain, then please indicate this -- or at least be prepared to cite your sources. I'm not suggesting you're doing this, I'm simply generalizing here (myself included). It's not limited to this topic either, trust me. Things become confusing to readers and risk becoming perpetuated when people, unsure about things, state them as fact.

Ubisoft's developers interviewed Jürgen Oesten (Kptlt. and commander of the 9th Flotilla in Brest) and asked him about thermal layers during WWII in the Atlantic. I've included a link to an audio file you can download from Ubisoft's ftp that features this audio interview.

Jürgen Oesten
http://www.uboat.net/men/oesten.htm

Audio interview with Jürgen Oesten
ftp://ftp.ubi.com/uk/silenthunteriii/videos/Oesten_Thermal_layer.zip



so that is one reason they were not added.
According to Ubisoft's developers, thermal layers were added SH3. At least I never read anything from them to the contrary after the fact. During SH3's development, at community Q&As, the devs were asked about thermal layers. They explained they would be modeled within the game. And who's to say they're not -- I think it's one of those things where it would be difficult to model to the extent you would know for certain whether or not you managed to slip under one.

SH3 Devteam Q&A Part 1 (see #19)
http://www.silenthunteriii.com/uk/devteamquestions1.php

SH3 Devteam IRC Live Chat 04.08.04 (see question by U-658)
http://www.silenthunteriii.com/uk/livechat040804.php

Cheers,
flintlock

[StandingCow]

You know what.. they MAY just be.. have you ever during a dive all the sudden hear the pings get very quiet?

That has got to be thermal layers... right? Or just because you are so deep?

[Finback]

I believe thermal layers are modelled in SH3 for the same reason StandingCow states.

Thermal Layers are Very Dynamic. Weather has a huge impact on where they are or if they exist at all. There can actually be multiple thermal layers in the same area (existing at certain depths of course). From my experience in SH3 (and i pre-ordered and still play it a lot) is that the Dev Team may have even modelled the "Afternoon Effect". The afternoon effect is a layer created right around periscope depth on very sunny days. The sun warms the surface of the water creating a very shallow layer. On afternoon attacks on bright days, I have sometimes gottn away undetected by staying at periscope depth and slinking away--even 1942 and later...

Layers work because the rapid temperature differential creates a dense Salinity layer. It's the layer of dense salt that reflects sound, not temperature itself.

[StandingCow]

Adds a bit more importance to the weather report you get from your watch crew too.

Warm, sunny = low dive might be best.

Stormy = Dive deep and run silent.

[Finback]

It works for me but not always and be fore-warded...when it doesn't work it means you've got an angry escort coming at you within sptting distance--not good when you're at periscope depth :nope: . So--use this tactic at your own risk. Being responsible for more than the boat I'm skippering would just be more burden than I could bear :smug: .

If you try it, let me know how it works for you!

[High Voltage]

U-boaters were definitely aware of the thermocline and more than one has mad reference to ducking under it to escape detection. This was especially noticeable when the enemy was using ASDIC, as thermal layers sometimes completely blocked out "the pitter-patter of raindrops" on the ship's hull.

FYI for those not familiar, ASDIC was often reported as sounding like rain or gentle tapping.

I would be curious to get a definitive answer as to whether or not this feature does in fact exist in SH3...

Cheers,

[jhelix70]

I would be curious to get a definitive answer as to whether or not this feature does in fact exist in SH3...


Even if they exist, you can't know that they are there without instrumentation. I'm not sure if Uboats were so equipped.

For US subs at least, they were (after a certain stage of the war) equipped with bathythermographs, simple devices to monitor water temperature outside the sub. So the skipper could actually be aware of a gradient and use it to hide under. This was in fact implemeted in SHI, so there is no excuse in my mind for it not being in SH4.

[flintlock]

Even if they exist, you can't know that they are there without instrumentation. I'm not sure if Uboats were so equipped. Although not an exact science and somewhat crude, a thermometor would tell them if they were inadvertently passing through one. There's a link contained in a post above to an audio interview with Jürgen Oesten, if you care to listen.

[FUBAR295]

All this reminds me of the thermal layer discussions when SH2 was out.

The technical aspects of thermal layers should be read by everyone so you get a good understanding on how the work. Heres the link:

http://uboat.net/articles/index.html?article=45



Good Hunting,
FUBAR

[NEON DEON]

Stick Bernard in one of the aft torpedo tubes with a thermometer and open the outer door. :yep: :yep: :yep:

Have him use his tongue to measure the salinity.:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Ducimus]

I dunno how long ive played SH3. Probably around 2 years or maybe even longer now.

Im quite certain there are no Thermal layers modeled in SH3. The closest thing your going to see to a thermal layer that game, is a nice windy day.

[flintlock]

Im quite certain there are no Thermal layers modeled in SH3.You may be right, though the devs insist the thermal layers are indeed modeled .

[Ducimus]

I think thermal layers in SH3 falls under the catagory of "things we meant to do, but didn't".

[edjcox]

Early in the seafaring explorations of the worlds oceans by the British Navy (1700's) and certain members of the Royal Society of Science, measurements of current flows and other parameters of the worlds currents were taken. Amongst this research and worldwide data acquisition was the recording of temperatures at various depths.

A little know fact was that British ships often trailed a wicker basket at great depths wherin the officers aboard had their stewards place bottles of wine for the purpose of cooling the libations prior to consumption.

The impact of thermal layers on the propagation and refraction of sonar wavefronts was probably poorly understood much earlier than WWI. The science of acoustics especially of underwater acoustics needed much exploration to determine the refraction properties and distortions thermal junctures would have on sonar waves.
As this became evident the process of useing these layers in masking of submarines at depth was a natural outcome of the research. The interesting aspect of this is that sonar initially were limited in frequency and power but as components changed so did the sonars abilities. Sonar's today utilize a wide range of frequencies and pulse forms to propagate through water. Sonar's can be tuned at realtime to maximize penetration, propagation and depth. Thus the thresholds that need be achieved in our modern world for detection or not are far less than at the infancy of this sensor system.

Acoustic systems today can mimic biologicals, adjust frequency and pulse fronts to negate thermal layers and the distortions they might produce on older sets.

To me, the most fitting and proper use of Thermal layers remains that of cooling off the Port and Champagnes of the 1700's.



:ping: :arrgh!: :ping:

[Sulikate]

Stick Bernard in one of the aft torpedo tubes with a thermometer and open the outer door. :yep: :yep: :yep:

Have him use his tongue to measure the salinity.:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Poor Bernard :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: