GWX and the AI destroyers

[pythos]

I know thisw has been harped on quite a bit, and please do not missunderstand this as an all out gripe agains GWX. I very much appreciate the effort and time people have put into this add on.

However, I think there is something decidely wrong with the escorts. This may be due to a limitation of SH3 itself, I cannot be sure.

My patrol is late in 42 (december I think).

I sneak up on a convoy at periscope depth, silent running 2kts. Not one reason given for any pinging to be done. "quiet as a ghost" as a certain kaleaun is said to say.

I am waiting for the correct moment to pop the scope up and get a first look at the convoy.

Just before the moment I get pinged. Not a search ping, but an honest to god ping, followed rapidly by another. I am at 15 meters, so no part of my tower popped out of the water, my silent running is being excercised. There was no reason for the pinging to start. I reload the scenerio to see if it happens again. It does.

I pop my scope up and 1900 meters away there is the escort bearing down on me.

I have to ask, is a nearly 2km 90 degree active arc correct? Did they just randomly fire off pings. Or did I enter an active arc which automatically started the pinging? If that is the case then there is no way of sneaking up on a convoy, concidering there is no way to get inside without getting pinged.

I thought the active arc was only a few hundred meters, not a couple 1000.

There does not seem to be a probability of error when it comes to the AI.

Perhaps I just goofed.

[ReallyDedPoet]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=104377

I take it you read this then.

[Ducimus]

Somebody goofed :88)

[TarJak]

Fire the dumkopf who dropped a spanner in the engine room out the rear tube!:nope:

[Ducimus]

That would be Bernard.

Look what happends when you let him into the engineroom with that wrench of his:

http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/snorkel_fun_1.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/snorkel_fun_2.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/snorkel_fun_3.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/snorkel_fun_4.jpg

[TarJak]

He was practising his morse code on the pipes in there!:rotfl:

[pythos]

I guess you all did not read my post through. I was silent running. I was below the waves, I was pointing at the advesary.

Now why are they pinging if they have no reason?

I cannot hope to get a shot off with these bastards around pinging for no decernable reason.

You answere seems to be dive deep. The damn late war active cuts off at 300 friggin meters. My boat will pop before that, let alone get a shot off.

No wonder the u boats became death traps, if this is historically acurrate.

[TarJak]

How close were you to the DD's? Where there any AI Uboats around? If you cross the cone of their sensors you will more likely get picked up and then they'll start pinging. I was a bit frustrated at first. When you were at silent, did you set your speed manually to 2kt or less?

At the depth you were at you are almost certain to get heard if your sub enters their sensor cone.

[Ducimus]

Now why are they pinging if they have no reason?

Don't take this personal but the AI does NOT ping for no reason. My view is, whenever the AI starts pinging is because *I* (the player) did something wrong. The truth is the AI is incredibly stupid, and only reacts when the player does a set number of things. Otherwise its as dumb as bricks.

Give me a few mins, i can tell i need to break out MS Paint again.

[Ducimus]

Ok, here's what i think your doing.

Posiitiong yourself directly ahead of the convoy and laying in wait.

http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/convoy_attack_wrong.jpg
Bad F'ing Idea. Espeically after 42 or 43.


Here's what i would suggest doing for a submerged approach:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/convoy_attack_1.jpg
First of all lay off to the SIDE of the convoy, keeping at least 3K meters away from the lead escort. Dont sit directly infront of it. Yeah yeah i know, "i want to get inside the convoy so i can use all my tubes at once".. Well, tough luck man, doesnt always happen that way.

Once the lead escort passes you, THEN move in as quickly, and as quietly as you can. The object being to get as close as you can to the convoy before the side guarding escort arrives at your location. As illustrated below.

http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/convoy_attack_2.jpg

Notice the angle i placed the uboat. This is deliberate. Ive found that a straight 90 shot on convoys doesnt always work the best. Primarly because its harder to time when the torpedo's hit. You want all 4 hitting around the same time. This allows you to shoot INSIDE the convoy, and be able to time your shots so they impact at roughly the same time period. Also it increases your chances of scoring a hit since targets tend to overlap some. Just dong get too much angle or you'll hear the thud of a dud.

Once you cut loose your 2nd salvo, start going deep.
OR
If your feeling ballsy, stick around to see what the side escort is going to do. If he runs off in another direction, you have time to turn your ass around and bring your stern tubes to bear. Just dont forget to keep an eye on the lead escort as you do this. Once your done taking your chances go deep REALLY fast as your on borrowed time as it is already.

[Finback]

Great synopsis of a a good mid-war attack!!!!

As far as escorts only pinging if they have a reason... The escorts ALWAYS have a reason to ping. They're looking for U-Boats. Historically, the escorts used active most of the time over passive when leading a convoy.

Also: If I find myself too close to an escorts path, I frequently turn and put it at my 150 if his AOB is =>1. I then do a slow turn to starboard and try to keep as much range from as possible while I work away from his patrol path. When he is at "constant distance" I then cut back in behind him. If his AOB is <=359, I put him to my 210 and do the same thing to port. If his AOB is 0 I start going deep :hmm: .

Every situation is a bit different though so sometimes you have to risk it or guess the best tactic. Also--don't forget that are 5 levels of escort crew experience!!! Elite escorts can be tough to get around.

Cheers!!!

[High Voltage]

Ducimus,
your artistic talents have not dulled with age. It looks like a page pulled straight out of Ubootwaffe Combat Tactics 101!:lol:

Seriously though, thanks for the tip.;)

[Ducimus]

As far as escorts only pinging if they have a reason... The escorts ALWAYS have a reason to ping. They're looking for U-Boats. Historically, the escorts used active most of the time over passive when leading a convoy.

Historically yes. In SH3, no, they don't ping unless some criteria is met.

(edit: frankly thats what takes alot of the fun out of the game for me. Im fairly confident i know why and when they ping. Knowing the when and why, all a "PIIINNNNG" means is... "ok i goofed." If i never hear a ping, i know i did it right. Infact i just exited sh3, game is in feb43. I just took out two DE's and a CV, a tramp steamer, and damaged a liberty cargo in a WELL escorted convoy outside of capetown . NOT A SINGLE PING out of any of them the entire time. Obviously i didnt screw up at any point in time, and the 15 kt winds helped :roll:. Attack went by the numbers, and i got out totally undetected, in an big fat IXD2.

[pythos]

Come in at an angle from one side or another. Do'H.

I will give it a wirl. Thank for the hint. Of course I should have thought about that, but homer being my name for the time being isn't a great help.

Mmmmm, tanker.

[scalelokt]

Pythos, in my experience the escorts are pinging as they protect the convoy all the time. I dont necessarily think you did anything "wrong" to give away your position necessarily. Its more likely that you found yourself in front of an escort and it was doing its routine ping that it does whether you are there or not and it found you. The key is to stay away from them and find a way to get close to the convoy without passing close to, or in front, of the escort. I have had the same thing happen to me even at the beginning of the war. After I realized I needed to change tactics it wasnt difficult. Figure out where the escorts are and make your way around them. Last night I saw a large convoy with several excorts and made my way in after the escorts in front had passed me, and before the escorts in the back were close enough to see me. Really torpedoed the hell out of that convoy, ended up with 40,000 tons. Also remember that after you get your first torpedo hit the escorts will be coming full speed. Sneak your way in, do as much damage as quickly as possible, get the hell out of there, and expect to be depth charged for a while before you finally get away. FUN FUN FUN! :D

[Ducimus]

Escorts don't ping unless your in their active sonar cone, your giving them a favorable area of your sub to ping off of, and youve been doing both for.. im guessing around 10 seconds. That's the general rule as ive defined it for msyelf after ALOT of testing.

There are variables however.

1.) State of the sea

2.) crew rating of the AI. Crew rating i beleives defines the minimum threshold sensitivies that the AI will react to. Crew ratings vary from 0 to 4. - 0 being a total retard, 4 being elite. The higher the crew rating, the more sensitive they are to their sensors.

3.) Another thing i recall being mentioned in the pass is the alert state of the AI. ITs either passing and in cruise mode. Or it's been alerted and has gotten the idea that your around and now it's sensor values are extra sensitive and it wont take much to trip them.


Obviously i take a very mechanical point of view with the AI. :lol:

[Iron Budokan]

I have a question about the diagrams presented for the convoy attack. Those torps are coming in at an awfully oblique angle. Doesn't that impinge on the impact detonators? No 90-degree impact angles represented there. Or should we be using mag detonators at an acute AOB as represented in the diagram?

[GT182]

IB, think magnetic and under the keel for shots like what Duc is trying to show you. It works very well. ;)

[Ducimus]

This pictures are not to scale. I honestly just eyeball my angle of approach to the convoy. The exact angle i just learned from practice. The angle is a tinsy bit shallower then what i drew on those pictures though.

[Ducimus]

IB, think magnetic and under the keel for shots like what Duc is trying to show you. It works very well. ;)

I acutaly vary rarely use magnetics. I think the best way to describe the angle i approach at would be a slight oblique.

[GT182]

I always use magnetic.... even in late Nov of '40 on up. And even with 90 degree shots, I've had more luck not having duds with magnetic than with impact. Impact seems to bounce off more times than not at 90. And yes, they have plenty of time to arm.... shots way over 500 and 1000 meters. Magnetic can even take out a DD even as close as 265 meters. Honest, I've done it several times. Impact needs 300 or more meters to arm, magnetic doesn't.

Plus duds is checked in my realism. 66%

[Ducimus]

I use magnetic on DD's, DE's. Their draft is too shallow for anything else. Or in weather 7kt winds or less.

Impact seems to bounce off more times than not at 90.

That happends when you hit the part of the hull where the side curves round to form the bottom of the hull and keel.

[Eagle Eye]

If I'm in deep water Ive had great success getting directly in frnt the convoy diving deep 100 meters at least going to one knot and letting the lead escort roll right over me. once he's past start up to PD youll usually be in a position to use all your tubes at the back half of the convoy. I was picked up once like that in totally calm waters.
In that case I would come in at an angle.

[Brag]

On the other extreme, I approached a convoy at an oblique angle. (night, rough seas) Lead destroyer zig-zagged its way toward me. At about 200 meters "Bernard" let go with a torpedo. The destroyer passed me about 140 meters away, never detecting the torpedo shot or my presence. The escorts got pissed after I torpedoed a couple of ships--they lack sense of humour. :nope:

[Sailor Steve]

Naw, they just don't like German humor. They think it's a lot funnier to see bits and pieces of u-boat floating to the surface.

[pythos]

I did as was suggested, I came in at angle behind the lead escort (an everts) and got into the convoy, passing just in front of a flower (curiously no arcs represented. (yes I was kinda cheating, I wanted to see if I was getting things right.

To make a long story short, I fired four torpedoes, one salvo at a factory whale ship close by and the other salvo, at another such ship. Then I just dived as deep as I could. On my way down I heard the crumph of the torpedoes going off.

A few minutes later someone dropped some cans, which did very minor damage.

forty five minutes later the whale ship sunk, and the escorts and convoy were far away.

I couldn't persue due to low fuel reserves so I set course for the nearest U-tanker.

Thanks for the hints fellas.:arrgh!:

[Ducimus]

:up: