question about American WWII sub fires

[Wave Skipper]

It appears from my reading that US subs had a lot of fires on board compared to German U-boats. I know the old truism that German machines tended to be better built with tighter specs. But after reading many accounts of US subs in WWII I kept running into accounts of how sea water pouring down the hatches cuased fires in the control room and batteries below. When the Tang was dead on the bottom of 180 feet of water a battery fire was causing the paint to peel off the walls in the torpedo room as the men were trying to escape to the surface. I have read several books about U-boats and never recall reading much about fires caused by salt water. I do recall how we in the US brought many German rocket scientists to the states to build our early rocket force, and I do recall that our electronics was of so low quality that most of our rockets exploded or fell over on the pads (and that was with German scientists trying to walk us through the development).

Was the equipment on German U-boats better sealed or water-proofed than American electronics? And did the German U-boats have many battery fires?

[Sailor Steve]

Well, Tang had a big torpedo hole, and probably the whole pressure hull was buckled because of it, so that example doesn't really count.

[Wave Skipper]

The torpedo had not set the fires. According to the accounts of those who survived the fire started when water flooded the control room from the conning tower hatch, and from the water that flooded the forward batteries. German subs took hits too but I don't recall a lot of fires from salt water. I mean I know they had some fires from DC attacks. But in most of the American fire accounts these things happened during storms when water flooded in from big waves. I don't recall U-boats bursting in flame because of big waves. SO my question is was American equipment as water tight as German gear? I know in the 80s our company built many power supplies and gear for Navy Radar and I know what we built was tightly sealed. But From what I read about WWII US subs it looks like such equipment wasn't.

(note: the torpedo that sunk Tang hit in the stern and all those compartments flooded instantly and took the sub down by the rear - no fires survived that flooding, and the forward areas where sealed off by water tight hatches. The flooding in the control room came from the bridge hatch until someone managed to shut it.. The sub would never have settled to the bottom as it was, but because it was at a 45 degree angle the crew could not move to escape. One man reached the control to flood the tanks to take her to the bottom, hoping that once the boat was level they could move to the forward torpedo room to exit the boat. They exited the boat at 180 foot depth, so deep that their voices became high pitched in the escape locker as they began equalizing the pressure with the outside water. First they had to get their bodies used to the outside pressure before they flooded the locker to escape outside. I just read their account.)

[Sailor Steve]

I didn't say the torpedo started the fires. When a car is in a collision the frame is usually bent, and the doors no longer close properly. I said that there is a reasonable chance that the hatches were leaking because the pressure hull was distorted from the blast. You said that it was probably from inferior design.

[Wave Skipper]

'The Bravest Man' about Richard O'Kane and the Tang, page 140, "The all-day dives, then considered doctrine, were a severe strain on Argonaunt's equipment, with high humidity contributing to small fires that broke out in electrical equipment." (my comment:!!!!!!!!!!!!!:o!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Then later in the book where it talks about several subs that were heavily damaged by big storms the main problem began when huge wave water flooded the control rooms of the subs setting of fires because of the salt water.

SO my point is: was German equipment better sealed. Hopefully someone who has studied this subject should know. Perhaps I need to contact uboat.net....

[dean_acheson]

Good question, but to be honest, over the last few months I have been doing quite a bit of reading on these boats, and haven't noticed the fire thing much.

The old argonaut boats, well, they were built in the 1920s, and were not indicitive of the reliability of the later fleet boats.

I think that most folks consider the German boats as superior to the American boats, but I simply don't agree. At the beginning of the war, certainly the Americans were behind the Germans, but by the 44 period, I would feel a bit more confidence in an American boat, simply because of superior technology.

The ongoing debate about diving depths will continue, but I would give up a bit of that, for the superior electronics of the American boats.

O'Kane might not have been impressed with the V class, but he has nothing but superlatives to discuss his feelings of the Balao class Tang... and O'Kane was not an easy man to impress.

[Hueywolf123]

It must be stated however, that the Germans did have far superior technologies at hand but it was Admiral Readers reluctance to use it that stopped it being refined and implemented.
IE, in '37 tests were done on the walter turbine, using electricity to separate hydrogen from oxygen. The products of combustion were almost nil except for oxygen and fresh water.
This boat was timed at 25kt submerged, and could stay under for several days running. Both Reader and the powers that be, refused to see it as anything more than fantasy. But the prototype had worked.
The german boats were much more seaworthy, and much simpler to operate, although they were more cramped. They had a smaller turning circle, faster to dive and much more maneuverable. They also ran quieter at silent speed.

[Torpex752]

Submarine fires. When I toured U-505 I noticed that she was not as electrical as our boats of the period. I also noticed that the German splashproofing seemed to me to be better on the outside through the use of compression seals vice the putty on US boats. I agree that I too have heard more about US boat fires. One issue could be the type of electrical system used. I believe that many of the systems and indications on German boats were DC, where as the US boats used AC alot more. DC is less prone to fires and fried wires (fires) when wet unlike an AC system. US boats were also true electric drive, where a majority of U-Boats were direct drive. My conclusion is German boats were simpler and relied on alot of manual operation, US boats have a much more complex electrical system and alot more electrical stuff.

Frank
:cool:

[LZ_Baker]

Submarine fires. When I toured U-505 I noticed that she was not as electrical as our boats of the period. I also noticed that the German splashproofing seemed to me to be better on the outside through the use of compression seals vice the putty on US boats. I agree that I too have heard more about US boat fires. One issue could be the type of electrical system used. I believe that many of the systems and indications on German boats were DC, where as the US boats used AC alot more. DC is less prone to fires and fried wires (fires) when wet unlike an AC system. US boats were also true electric drive, where a majority of U-Boats were direct drive. My conclusion is German boats were simpler and relied on alot of manual operation, US boats have a much more complex electrical system and alot more electrical stuff.

Frank
:cool:

I would agree with Torpelx here. More electrical stuff = more fires

[Caseck]

NM. I like the above answer better.

[NEON DEON]

'The Bravest Man' about Richard O'Kane and the Tang, page 140, "The all-day dives, then considered doctrine, were a severe strain on Argonaunt's equipment, with high humidity contributing to small fires that broke out in electrical equipment." (my comment:!!!!!!!!!!!!!:o!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Then later in the book where it talks about several subs that were heavily damaged by big storms the main problem began when huge wave water flooded the control rooms of the subs setting of fires because of the salt water.

SO my point is: was German equipment better sealed. Hopefully someone who has studied this subject should know. Perhaps I need to contact uboat.net....

Seals alone will not stop ac electrical equipment from shorting. The condensation will bleed right thru the metal Just like like a glass of iced tea on a hot day will develop water on the outside of the glass. In the case of the Argonaut, her original equipment could not handle the condensation build up which required some equipment to be baked out on a regular basis. But that changed when all three of the big boats (Argonaut, Narwhal, and Nautilus) recieved air conditioning in overhauls in 1941/42.

I cannot find any incidinces of a U S boats being lost due to electircal fires in WW II. If you know of any, please let me know so I can read up on it.