So this is why canada cant afford a navy

[Kapitan]

Canada's navy has seen better days i think we are all quite unanimous on that, whats the reason?

Canada is one of the biggest contributers to aiding the russians scrapping and de fueling programmes for thier nuclear submarines, in terms of money spent they spend more on helping the russians than they do on thier own navy.

This is a video i found on U tube of a canadian company breaking up a sierra class and a victor III class submarine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLkqk0BqvGs

Now candians how about having this boat in the navy?

[Oberon]

Does Canada have the facilities to maintain nuke boats? I mean, it could easily be built...but I should imagine these boats need some serious upkeep...plus...the Upholders are probably a lot quieter than a Sierra or Victor. Although really, I guess they could do with at least one nuke, for long range silent missions....the sort of missions that an Upholder couldn't do without snorkelling and betraying its location.

[ReallyDedPoet]

It's to bad considering what our Navy was in WW2, our Navy was a big part of the Battle of the Atlantic.

I actually had a chance recently to speak a Great Uncle of my Wife's, he is retired from the Canadian Navy, served on the Haida during the whole Cold War period. Interesting to know that the Haida also played a big role in WW2 as well.

[Letum]

It's to bad considering what our Navy was in WW2, our Navy was a big part of the Battle of the Atlantic.

I actually had a chance recently to speak a Great Uncle of my Wife's, he is retired from the Canadian Navy, served on the Haida during the whole Cold War period. Interesting to know that the Haida also played a big role in WW2 as well.

At the start of ww2 your navy was just as bad.
14 Atlantic destroyers?

By 1945 ~50% of destroyers in the north Atlantic where Canadian. :up:

[I-25]

well a victor III i understand but a sierra OUCH!:o i would have held on to that one a bit longer if i were the russian navy.

[Mush Martin]

It's to bad considering what our Navy was in WW2, our Navy was a big part of the Battle of the Atlantic.

I actually had a chance recently to speak a Great Uncle of my Wife's, he is retired from the Canadian Navy, served on the Haida during the whole Cold War period. Interesting to know that the Haida also played a big role in WW2 as well.
At the start of ww2 your navy was just as bad.
14 Atlantic destroyers?

By 1945 ~50% of destroyers in the north Atlantic where Canadian. :up:
as far as it goes we started with a Six reasonably fairly modern destroyers and five small brand new mine sweepers which themselves represented our naval construction efforts ( the ms not the dd ) also two training ships
two relevant naval bases Halifax and Esquimalt. 145 officers and 1674 men.

and as you aluded too at the end there moreso than any other navy US British Japanese italian or Russian the Canadian navy grew during the war
to finish it as the worlds third largest navy at the end. about an hour later
we were back to where we started. but lets not get me started on our
Canadian Support for and understanding the purpose of the military.
albeit theyve been coming along abit since 911 in our forces, but the navy
has special issues, our guys are alot undersupported by the civilian population. MM:|\\

[ReallyDedPoet]

Letum: Yeah, that is what I meant, we stepped up to the plate and were a big part of the success in that theatre:up:

[Mush Martin]

It's to bad considering what our Navy was in WW2, our Navy was a big part of the Battle of the Atlantic.

I actually had a chance recently to speak a Great Uncle of my Wife's, he is retired from the Canadian Navy, served on the Haida during the whole Cold War period. Interesting to know that the Haida also played a big role in WW2 as well.

I think Im going to make a trip to see Haida this summer we should make a day of it for Canookie members of Subsim and those of our cousins to the south that would wish to attend.
what do ya think there RDP

MM

[fatty]

Canada's foreign policy leaves no point for nuclear boats. Our submarines are mainly used for fishery and sovereignty patrols, things for which a nuclear boat would be expensive overkill.

A white paper was put forth in 1987 which did suggest the purchase of 10-12 nuclear subs. This paper was not very forward-thinking IIRC and took an archaic [even for that time] cold war adversarial stance. Needless to say the subs didn't get the green light.

To me, the cost of procurement, training, construction of facilities, and hiring of support staff outweighs the advantage of being able to piddle around underwater in the Persian Gulf all day doing interdictions. Our world-class FFHs already serve in that role impeccably.

[Mush Martin]

Canada's foreign policy leaves no point for nuclear boats. Our submarines are mainly used for fishery and sovereignty patrols, things for which a nuclear boat would be expensive overkill.

A white paper was put forth in 1987 which did suggest the purchase of 10-12 nuclear subs. This paper was not very forward-thinking IIRC and took an archaic [even for that time] cold war adversarial stance. Needless to say the subs didn't get the green light.

To me, the cost of procurement, training, construction of facilities, and hiring of support staff outweighs the advantage of being able to piddle around underwater in the Persian Gulf all day doing interdictions. Our world-class FFHs already serve in that role impeccably.

I understand the limitations of current popular support for the military
but its my subjective opinion that more force capability is necessary
whether or not it would include SSN's vs SSk's

the new york city police dept has more personell and could make a good
argument for some armour.

with forces strength under 70,000 now all branches I feel there are smaller less developed nations that are able and willing to support a more capable soveriegnty force. as far as it goes the trouble people have with the economics of it is that they think of the military as a pricey burden on the
economy not an actual part of it. the truth is that the value of a dollar isnt just based on the resources of country and that countries ability to develop and utilize those resources the strength of a dollar is also based on the security of that country in those capacities and the investment in the military industrial complex is just that an investment not a burden.

to my mind force levels for Canada should be pushed up to 100.000 standing reg forces + 150,000 reservists all branches minimum.

(oops someone got me started.)
MM

[LoBlo]

Great find. That was interesting to watch.

[fatty]

Martin, don't get me wrong, I am simply arguing that Canada has no use for SSNs.

I do concur with your post 100%. I think the underfunding of Canada's military became incontrovertible last month when our ships pulled out of exercises due to budget concerns. Now they're talking about nixing some ships and aircraft to pay for new stuff?

I'm hoping there's a nice fat fiscal injection for the CF coming to make up for these embarrassments.

[Mush Martin]

Martin, don't get me wrong, I am simply arguing that Canada has no use for SSNs.

I do concur with your post 100%. I think the underfunding of Canada's military became incontrovertible last month when our ships pulled out of exercises due to budget concerns. Now they're talking about nixing some ships and aircraft to pay for new stuff?

I'm hoping there's a nice fat fiscal injection for the CF coming to make up for these embarrassments.

I dont disagree with you either its just that we should assess our needs realisticly as you have when you say we currently dont need SSN's
however we should also never assume that what we decide today wont change tommorow. so as far as it goes I dont support the purchase outside of canada of any nuke boats but I dont think we should yank the slowpoke
reactor out of the RMC basement either. and if in the event we ever need to go that way the institutional knowledge should be indigineous not rented from a foriegn power with their own interests and a sense of we owe them
one. besides all that if we are going to make it into an egalitarian world of
equanimity the we as a nation need the type of credibility that brings influence (ie force capability and foriegn policy constistency and resolve)

It is interesting that we think of ourselves as leaders at the UN but I notice that Members of the permanent council have SSBN's

Life is what you make it , even if your a nation.
MM
(pontificating again.sorry)

[Kapitan]

Canada is not a super power nor a regional power not anything, its millatery could realy only be used for defence it hasnt the numbers to launch an attack on say the USA or indeed Britian, because it has no nukes canada has to rely on protection from those who do like japan does.

Canada doesnt need nukes at the moment its not a major player in iternational politics nor a major power that influencies anything on the sea any way so the diesel boats should be around for a fair while.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Don't need nukes to be a major influence on the international scene, there are other ways to influence.

RDP

[Kapitan]

What builds alot of economies is millatery power as it offers the investor of your country security hence why alot of people invest in british european and also american markets not forgetting the japanese.

Millatery can also crash the one thing that makes the world go round money, if the USA invaded a small country it could wipe billions off the ftse100 and 200.

[fatty]

It is interesting that we think of ourselves as leaders at the UN but I notice that Members of the permanent council have SSBN's

True, but some of these countries (i.e. Russia and China) are having a hard time looking after their own domestic issues. I would say their priorities are ill-placed by having a standing nuclear deterrent force when they are presently racked with corruption and poverty.

I think we do an okay job of making our way in the international scene. Canada has been and still is a pillar in the securing and developing of Afghanistan. I had an opportunity last year to hear former head of the Strategic Advisory Team Col. Mike Capstick speak on the mission there. Our impact in Afghanistan is more impressive than many realize.

As far as SSNs, maybe we should be forming some exploratory committees to research the nuclear option should the global situation suddenly shift and an urgent need emerges for SSNs.

What builds alot of economies is millatery power as it offers the investor of your country security hence why alot of people invest in british european and also american markets not forgetting the japanese.

Ummm, this maybe was true 100 years ago, but liberal democracies do not really get invaded anymore. Luxembourg has far and away the highest GDP per capita in the world, yet has a standing army of less than 1,000. This is also a country which has been occupied twice in the past century.

Edit: Also, if for some reason which I cannot imagine Canada ends up in a conflict with the U.S., we can always just turn off their electricity :lol:

[Mush Martin]

sorry boys I was down with network issues Im back.
and happy to say that there are ways other than nukes
but of those boycott or bribe are our current fav's

we are able to send small contingents overseas
but by way of example our internaitonal influence
wouldnt back argentina out of the falklands
or many more recent examples.

albeit I recognize the need for defence and for self control on
military spending I also recognize a need for a seperate
offensive force capability

as Sun Tzu observed in peacetime a wise man keeps his
sword by his side. How long do you think theyll give us
to gear up before the next big one is over.

and I defy anybody on this forum to say it cant happen
the world is full of small brushfires now.
It can happen, and almost inevitably will someday
although not to soon I hope.

How thin are you going to spread those guys in defense of the worlds second largest nation geographically after all for the size of the place
70,000 is almost a credible size for an insurgency. but a national defence?
standing forces have traditionally been limited in peacetime to what is necessary to complete sovreignty patrols and keep our claim to all this.

the reason we would need a seperate offensive capability is that if you have to drain your defenses to make an attack youve given the game to
any able enemy.

Oh but canada doesnt have any enemies.
yeah right!

all nations are self serving in the event. the whole idea is to make
it advantageous enough to make being part of a cooperative world community the best choice for them in there own opinion.

I like the british example in aden.
it was won there with vetrinarians and doctors and agricultural consultants
and well drilling, at which point the leadership was having a terrible time
convincing there people of British malfesance
MM
Ok im done now!

[John Channing]

Canada is not a super power nor a regional power not anything, its millatery could realy only be used for defence it hasnt the numbers to launch an attack on say the USA or indeed Britian, because it has no nukes canada has to rely on protection from those who do like japan does.

Canada doesnt need nukes at the moment its not a major player in iternational politics nor a major power that influencies anything on the sea any way so the diesel boats should be around for a fair while.

Not unlike Russia!

JCC

[Kapitan]

Russia can only be classified as a dormant super power it has some influence but not alot, it maintains a force that can be used in attack and defence, it has the 2nd largest navy 2nd largest airforce and about the 8th largest army making it still a pretty big contender.

Note if you said to a russian the americans are invading chances are the army would quadruple over night :D

[Mush Martin]

do you see how kapitan measures the influence of the nation it is based on the issues described and equates a succesfull investment in military industrial complex with international influence. he doesnt measure by oil or iron ore or platinum like many including common public perception.

in short people will only listen when you can back it up

and wether or not canada does or doesnt need nukes
Canada does need to beef up
our self image amounts to the worst kind of delusion
MM

[ReallyDedPoet]

do you see how kapitan measures the influence of the nation it is based on the issues described and equates a succesfull investment in military industrial complex with international influence. he doesnt measure by oil or iron ore or platinum like many including common public perception.

in short people will only listen when you can back it up

and wether or not canada does or doesnt need nukes
Canada does need to beef up
our self image amounts to the worst kind of delusion
MM

:up::up: MM

[fatty]

But Mush Martin, Sun Tzu also said:

To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence.

Both you and Kapitan neglect the economic clout that Canada has. I used a smiling emoticon when I mentioned turning off the electricity but it's really no joke; as was said in the terror-free oil threat, the U.S. imports the most oil from Canada.

Do you believe that the only way for Canada to be a serious world player is for the CF to double in size? Security advisors south of the border are quite vocally pushing for decreased reliance on foreign oil. Iran quite astutely knows the power of this:

"Given Iran's authority over the Strait of Hormuz, the passageway to more than 40 per cent of the world's energy, we have become so strong that the world's economic and energy security are in the hands of Iran," deputy Basij commander General Majid Mir Ahmadi was quoted as saying by the semi-official Fars news agency.

"We can exert pressure on the US and British economies as much as we ourselves are put under pressure," he said.

"US allies, especially those who host US military sites or facilitate American strategies against us, are exposed to our threat," Mir Ahmadi added.

About a week after this article is published, USS John C. Stennis departs from its homeport to form a strike group eventually bound for the Persian Gulf. Now then, I believe you mentioned something about not measuring international influence with oil?

Trade is a monumental trump card for Canada. We should be funding our forces enough that they don't need to cancel exercises or retire perfectly good aircraft, but the doubling of the CF is really unnecessary.

[LoBlo]

do you see how kapitan measures the influence of the nation it is based on the issues described and equates a succesfull investment in military industrial complex with international influence. he doesnt measure by oil or iron ore or platinum like many including common public perception.

in short people will only listen when you can back it up

and wether or not canada does or doesnt need nukes
Canada does need to beef up
our self image amounts to the worst kind of delusion
MM

Hm... very interesting points.:yep:
From a Non-Canadian perspective it has always been my perception that Cananda simply was not interested in military conflicts. There's something to be said for not bothering with 3rd world squabbles on the other side of the world...

[LoBlo]

Russia can only be classified as a dormant super power it has some influence but not alot, it maintains a force that can be used in attack and defence, it has the 2nd largest navy 2nd largest airforce and about the 8th largest army making it still a pretty big contender.

Note if you said to a russian the americans are invading chances are the army would quadruple over night :D

Just out of curiousity Kapitan. Would you say there is still a good amount of anti-American sentiment in Russia? I can tell you first hand that in America, Russia is no longer considered an enemy at all... a turbulent country with a semi-tenuous political environment yes... but an enemy no.

[CCIP]

Just out of curiousity Kapitan. Would you say there is still a good amount of anti-American sentiment in Russia? I can tell you first hand that in America, Russia is no longer considered an enemy at all... a turbulent country with a semi-tenuous political environment yes... but an enemy no.

I can tell you even more exactly (being a Russian).

The attitude of Russians was always very different from what an American might normally think. Actually, my perception is that many Americans DO see Russia as an enemy still...

Anyway - the vast overwhelming majority of Russians have never hated America as an enemy, and probably a large proportion actually always liked Americans. On the other hand, in a very typical fashion for that culture, they had and have a very suspicious attitude towards America, which can sometimes border on paranoia. Which is why many Russians are offended by the attitude Americans have towards it and its political environment now - sure they're not happy with things as they are in the country, but nothing gets them going more than America pointing a finger at it. They (and I too) believe that noone really has the right to do that.

I think one thing that Americans should be aware of is that there is such a thing as a 'Russian Way' (which Russians themselves can't quite articulate, either), and they take serious offense at anyone they perceive as meddling in their affairs (both at the government and popular level). Superpower or not, Russia is a state with very well-defined and broad-spanning interests. As soon as these interests are brought into question, Russians get miffed.

Again, I stress: most Russians like the average American. But most Russians have no interest in becoming the average American. They will insist on seeing the world their own way and don't take kindly to it being questioned by outsiders.

[LoBlo]

The attitude of Russians was always very different from what an American might normally think. Actually, my perception is that many Americans DO see Russia as an enemy still...

Interesting perspective, thanks. Really though, being an American born and raised, I can assure you that American's don't see Russia as an enemy...However, I have to admit that we do look down our noses at Russia abit. Not because of any cold war residual, but because American's perception of Russia in its current state is that its racked with deeply intrenched political corruption... not something to think of as a enemy or threat, but the American knee-jerk reaction to just about any country perceived to be in political corruption is to look down our noses at them.

My gut says that the level of political coruption that is perceived (through network and cable news services, etc) is probably exaggerated... quite frankly, I'm not sure if the average American really knows what the heck is going on over there... just rumor and speculation for the most part.

[CCIP]

I should clarify so I don't come off as being unfriendly towards America in any way... what I mean is that there ARE quite a few Americans who think Russians are angry (whereas in reality they're very weary) and could potentially 'go berserk' and do something that would really hurt America or American interest. The chances of that are, and nearly always were close to zero. The other problem is that Americans like to project themselves onto Russia, and I think it's a tragic mistake to even begin to compare the two countries - of course Russia will end up looking bad. But Russia had a terrible, violent history - especially in the last 100 years - which America mercifully avoided. Much of the modern Russian character is shaped by the weariness of this violence and instability. Not that it does them any good.

Otherwise, I think the image of Russia not exaggarated, just mis-represented sometimes. Noone should be under any illusion of things there being good or bad - they're bad, but not in the ways one might always think. The key thing is that Russia as it is right now is a surprisingly stable state with a population that is surprisingly badly-off. I'd personally be far more optimistic if Russia were more unstable internally - but unfortunately the population is by and large so poor (besides a tiny and incredibly rich elite) and so politically passive that we can't even begin talking about democracy and other positive things there changing. It's a stable and not-really-good status quo. Most Russians will proudly announce that "we can survive in our country", and that's about as far as it goes for most of them (amazingly, it's a big improvement over the previous decade). Rather sad, really.

[LoBlo]

I should clarify so I don't come off as being unfriendly towards America in any way... what I mean is that there ARE quite a few Americans who think Russians are angry (whereas in reality they're very weary) and could potentially 'go berserk' and do something that would really hurt America or American interest.

Where do you get that perception from? No one I know believes that.

EDIT: Really. Have you really met American's that have expressed that?

[Kapitan]

It depends on the individual upbringing, CCIP sounds like his mother accepted anyone regardless which is a good thing. (not being offencive)

My stepfather is a old soviet school, he was brought up in his early years with Stalin and Kreschev and so he doesnt like the Americans and that is passed on in me a tiny bit.

[Mush Martin]

I feel that the people of most countries are interested in providing comfort
and security for their loved ones.

I am a Proud Canadian, and I am not inclined to get Canada involved in
the internal affairs of other nations. I am not a warmonger.

The economic diplomatic influences of canada exist as stated.

however, one should rely on ones self where possible.

doubling the canadian forces at their current level
would provide us with a force of approximately 126000 men
all branches. have you seen how many men belgium can muster.

their is a need for a realistic force capability but canadian civilian
population doesnt seem to understand the military as a tool.
and there seems to be some sort of underlying assumption
that if we ever need to go back to full scale war, that we
would have a year or three to gear up.

"I'll be back when the war is over an hour and a half from now"
(folk singer Roger James.)

I have already said that medling in the internal affairs of other nations
isnt on my list. But nations internal policies can often have an international
influence that may need to be dealt with. Ie Iraq or the afghan.

but seriously If Canada ever tried an oil boycott on the US for any reason
what do you guys suppose would happen.

the same thing as the japanese did when their oil was cut off by the states.??????
does any body believe they will continue peacfully with their neighbors if they
run out of fresh water??????

(remember boys these are meant to stimulate the conversation not
represent any type of anti american sentiment.)

MM

[Mush Martin]

To our cousins to the south, if my last post was in any way offensive
it wasnt really meant to be.

Canadians seem to hold a feeling of "well yes were capable of it, but we dont need to do it during peacetime armies are for wartime"

We tend to look with the eyes of the underachiever at you guys.

it doesnt mean we cant fight it just seems we actively try to avoid it.

and like appeasment of the approach to ww2 we dont want any force building to provoke anybody and change them from friend to enemy.

their is much in the american penchant for nationalism that canada could use.

and You guys very very respectably actively support your military.

that last point is starting to come along here now for the first time
in my life.

Canada and the US are like siblings, and I believe that america looks
at canada like an undercapable underachieving younger sibling

just like when you look at your youngest brother at home.

MM

[LoBlo]

but seriously If Canada ever tried an oil boycott on the US for any reasonwhat do you guys suppose would happen. the same thing as the japanese did when their oil was cut off by the states.?????? does any body believe they will continue peacfully with their neighbors if they run out of fresh water??????

It would be a nice and convient takeover... afterall you guys already speak english.:arrgh!: :huh: :yep: ... deep down inside you *know* you wanna join us ...;) [j/k]

[Mush Martin]

but seriously If Canada ever tried an oil boycott on the US for any reasonwhat do you guys suppose would happen. the same thing as the japanese did when their oil was cut off by the states.?????? does any body believe they will continue peacfully with their neighbors if they run out of fresh water??????
It would be a nice and convient takeover... afterall you guys already speak english.:arrgh!: :huh: :yep: ... deep down inside you *know* you wanna join us ...;) [j/k]

but can your codebreakers understand canadianized french
MM

[Mush Martin]

deep down inside you *know* you wanna join us ...;)

Well I dont know if we all "want" it but I feel it is
a socio economical inevitablity
MM

[LoBlo]

deep down inside you *know* you wanna join us ...;)

Well I dont know if we all "want" it but I feel it is a socio economical inevitablity

Great! Time to start a petitin to Congress. You start one in your Parliment and we'll start one in ours!!:up: The United States of North America.:yep:

Hm..... time to start a poll:hmm: :)

[Mush Martin]

deep down inside you *know* you wanna join us ...;)

Well I dont know if we all "want" it but I feel it is a socio economical inevitablity
Great! Time to start a petitin to Congress. You start one in your Parliment and we'll start one in ours!!:up:

Hm..... time to start a poll:hmm: :)

YOU know this is that part of the US where people are so clever
they dont pay taxes to washington

we have a lot to lose here
MM

[baggygreen]

Well Mush, why not buy a collins class from us??

while diesel, if you canadians ever suffer any military challenge from the states when you start your takeover, one of these babies got inside a carrier task force n 'sank' the nimitz, or something like that.. and more to the point got away again!

[Mush Martin]

Well Mush, why not buy a collins class from us??

while diesel, if you canadians ever suffer any military challenge from the states when you start your takeover, one of these babies got inside a carrier task force n 'sank' the nimitz, or something like that.. and more to the point got away again!

wed be honoured the Collins are an excellent class and a very capable
design, however Our new sub procurment allowance wont likely come
up in Canada until after these fine subs have warn out there careers
and gone to the breakers.

If you need a breakers by the way apparently we do that.
MM

[bookworm_020]

If you need a breakers by the way apparently we do that.
MM

Sorry, the job is taken by most of South East Asia!!