what kind of bases?

[Wave Skipper]

I was rereading a book about the USS Tang, about Richard O'Kane, in the book 'The Bravest Man' which describes a great deal about the US subs in the Pacific, (trying to get ready for SH4) when certain questions hit me. Are we going to see both the Australian bases and the big base at Pearl? And if we start the war out in Pearl will Ubi have the wreckage of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor all around? And as the years go by will this wreckage diminish historically until what we mainly see is still the sunken hulks of the BB ships Arizona and Oklahoma? Or will Pearl be a nice clean SH3 Germanic town?

Next: if we start at pearl will we be expexted to top off our fuel tanks at Midway, just as the REAL subs did?

Next: will we see the real screwed up command structure of the US sub force or as the book states on page 67: "In sum the Pacific submarine command structure was split three way, not from any naval or strategic logic but because that was the way the war command developed -- haphazardly."

And if so will we suffer what real sub captains suffered because, quote: "Brilliant as he was, King (Admiral King) never devised a systematic plan for sinking Japanese commerce. He failed to develop a strategic vision for the American submarines and their commands in the Pacific."

And will this game include the older S-boats based in Australia, in Brisbane, assigned as per reality to just the area of the Solomon Islands and East Indies?

Will the subs based at Perth, under ComSubSoWestPac under Wilkes and Admiral Carpenter find themselves in the same situation as historical reality, being under the ultimate command of General MacArthur, in Brisbane????

And if this is so will subs under MacArthur's whims find themselves doing missions that MacArthur actually forced subs to do (even though the sub captains hated the missions) of carrying supplies to troops and pro-American guerrillas, and landing special teams and guerrillas on islands??????

Also, will we see the pocket-sub bases, such as those in Brisbane, and Fremantle that were mainly makeshift bases where all the spare parts and services were supplied by sub tenders tied up to dockside???? (By the way this was an Idea I used in my Mod called V-Mod in Italian captured Somalia as some may recall).

So will we see these realistic command structures (per history) or will we only see ComSubPac in Pearl Harbor?

One more thing, will American subs be capable of launching their fish from 100 feet depth 33 meters just as was taught to submariners at the beginning of the war: launch a torpedo attack from 100 feet depth using sonar only, and at long distance.

ALSO: will the subs be able to travel QUOTE: "Running at 3 knots, a submarine could travel for up to 48 hours - or 150 miles distance." page 17.

And will we do what real US sub skippers did at the beginning of the war - only travel surfaced at night, and always travel submerged during the day? Although this system gave way by 43.

Will we have "depth charge medicine" (miniature bottles of bourbon, scotch, or brandy) to hand out to our men after battle?

Will the men cuss like real WWII US navy men aboard subs did, like when one officer stated, quote: "You mean we hit the son of a bitch?" Or will they all speak like politically-correct Euroweenies?

And will it contain real WWII terms for commands and so forth? Or some modern versions?

JUST WONDERING???

[hyperion2206]

I think the harbors in SH4 are filled with life. There will be moving cranes for example.
I don't know what kind of bases we will get, but we will get 6 different sub classes so there is a chance that the S-class will be included which would mean that we would have to start from Brisbane e.g.
But I'm pretty sure that they did not bother to recreate the command structure in any way. From what I've seen we will get an animated briefing before the mission starts (a map where ship symbols are moved to show you how the war is going on etc.)
I hope that answers some of your questions.

[Wave Skipper]

Too bad then, I suppose we will have to mod in the wreckage at pearl.

Also REAL US subs would get 'ULTRA' messages at sea (since the US had cracked Japan's codes) where skippers would get new updates on where Japanese ships were located and what their destination was. This would mean we should get info on enemy shipping while at sea.

[hyperion2206]

Too bad then, I suppose we will have to mod in the wreckage at pearl.

Also REAL US subs would get 'ULTRA' messages at sea (since the US had cracked Japan's codes) where skippers would get new updates on where Japanese ships were located and what their destination was. This would mean we should get info on enemy shipping while at sea.

I didn't say that the wreckages won't be there:p, but I guess that they won't because the DEVs don't have enough time for it.
However I'm pretty sure that we've got enough talented guys out there to fix that problem.:lol::up:

[Sailor Steve]

Considering the cool full-of-holes shipwrecks placed in various harbors in SHIII, I'm sure we'll have to avoid the wreck of the Arizona, and others that will be removed at the appropriate times.

[hyperion2206]

Considering the cool full-of-holes shipwrecks placed in various harbors in SHIII, I'm sure we'll have to avoid the wreck of the Arizona, and others that will be removed at the appropriate times.
I can't remember that there were any shipwrecks in stock SH3, the first wrecks I saw was when I first played GWX.:o:hmm:

[Torplexed]

I think people are putting too much emphasis on seeing the wreckage at Pearl Harbor. Aside from the Oklahoma, the Arizona, and the old target ship Utah most of the warships hit at Pearl had been refloated and either sent into local drydocks or to the US West Coast for repairs by May 1942. By the time you get back from your first patrol most of them will be gone. I think the sunken Arizona should definitely be included tho. Just to get your blood up. ;)

[Biggles]

I've read somewere some time ago that the dev. team wasn't really sure if they would let the player start in Pearl on December 7th, or some days before. Anyone got any update on this matter?

[Wave Skipper]

the truth is I am licking my lips and panting for this game to hit the shelves. And I know that modders will fill in the gaps and then some. I think what I wanted to do was just highlight how backward the US sub force was when first deployed in war - though by war's end a new breed of captains took over. By February 1943 over 30% of the sub skippers had been relieved of command for poor performance!!! Many were considered to be old chicken-****s by their crews. The new younger breed attempted to copy the German U-boat captains.

For example in 1942 the US sub force only managed to sink 180 Japanese ships, which was about the same number of ships sunk by German U-boats in the first 2 months of 42. The US military doctrine for subs at the beginning of the war was simply pathetic.

What we are about to do when we get hold of SH4 is infuse into the American Sub force hundreds of German U-boat captains - cause you know we aren't about to follow the pathetic 1942 American sub doctrines!

One thing that no doubt will need modding will be the refit time at base. In 1942-43 the refit time for American subs back from patrol was 14 days.

This book I mentioned was copywritten in 2001. Its out in paper back now and everyone should get a copy. Its and great source for the lingo used by the American submariners in the 40s.

There is even the account of how skipper Mush Morton ordered the gunners of the Wahoo to machine gun and shell the Japanese lifeboots from a sunken troop transport. It caused quite a shock to many American sub skippers at the time, but no official problems. The logic he used was this: those troops are in uniform. They are now on smaller transports (life boats) that will try to head for the nearby islands and war zones. They are still valid targets until they are swimming.

[Torplexed]

What we are about to do when we get hold of SH4 is infuse into the American Sub force hundreds of German U-boat captains - cause you know we aren't about to follow the pathetic 1942 American sub doctrines!
Isn't that the truth. Most of us have been playing SH2 or Sh3 for the last five years, so we practically are U-Boat captains. It does outline the problem of playing a sim tho. You can't get cold feet conducting an attack the way a new sub skipper with 80 lives to look after can when commanding a silicon sub. I hope the sim attempts to simulate that you are a cog in a bigger machine called a 'navy'. I sometimes feel like I'm commanding a mercenary ship because I get so little direction from headquarters. The Ultra intercepts would be a great idea.

[Sailor Steve]

Considering the cool full-of-holes shipwrecks placed in various harbors in SHIII, I'm sure we'll have to avoid the wreck of the Arizona, and others that will be removed at the appropriate times.
I can't remember that there were any shipwrecks in stock SH3, the first wrecks I saw was when I first played GWX.:o:hmm:
Sorry, I didn't say that properly. I don't remember who modded the shipwrecks, but they first appeared in the original Grey Wolves, with Harbour Traffic 1.48 by Rubini.

[hyperion2206]

I've just read some interesting answers from the devs http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/7651021115/p/2 (last post on that page).

The devs confirmed that there will be Australian bases (probably Brisbane) but at the moment they're not sure whether Cairns will make it into the game.

[Wave Skipper]

I noted in my reading about the Wahoo that after it had been beat up in 5 patrols it was sent back to San Francisco for a full refit, rather than Pearl!!!! Apparently from mid 42 on the sub force was growing so fast that lower officers didn't last long on subs before they were tranfered to a new sub. Those new subs usually started out State side out of San Francisco. So when Wahoo went back State side she lost crew. 5 patrols was a common limit for officers and NCOs before they 'd be grabbed up by a new sub. Of course the Skippers hated this, cause they would just get a man trained and off he'd go. I doubt SH4 will have this, I know it had nothing like that in SH3, but I hope SH4 gives modders more options to mod this sort of detail in.

Another thing, not only were the US fish as dud prone as the German eels, they seem to have been MORE dud prone. According to the book I am reading the American magnetic detonators were never tested outside of the design lab, Quote: "Because of the secrecy surrounding the magnetic exploder, and peacetime budgetary constraints, the torpedo and exploders were never actually tested live under simulated combat conditions." Slade Cutter, who had witnessed the tests described how he watched: "a technician at Newport pass a charged wand over the torpedo, supposedly simulating its movement going through a magnetic field. The wand would "click" and the technicians would say, "See, it works."

Also by 1943 they realized that these torpedoes (Mark 14) were on average racing to their targets 11 feet (3.3 meters) too deep! But the American naval arms system was so corrupt that captains that complained loudly were sacked or thrown out of the service. According to Naval Command there was nothing wrong with the torpedoes - it was all sloppy skippers and crews.

Of course the smart skippers started to quietly set the depth of their fish 11 feet higher, and they'd disable the magnetic detonators. But they kept quiet about this cause they were under strict orders to use the magnetic exploders. Thus the US Navy brass continued to believe that ships were being sunk by the non-functional magnetic torpedo settings.

One thing that really comes clear, the US Navy in 41-42 was realy hidebound! I think Germany was lucky in that its navy more or less began from scratch and thus avoided SOME of the bureaucratic system common in the peace time US forces.

I hope we have more options in adding a large number of CONDITIONS to the career mode. I recall that in SH3 you could only add such options easily to single missions. If SH4 will be smart and give modders more access to the game's guts we should be able to make this game true to history. I also hope that they fix the clock so that when one adds timed events they don't just work for the first day - as in single missions.

Something I'd like to add to the careers are "makee-learn" crew members. Most subs would often have a new officer assigned to them for just one mission who was about to get command of his own sub. He'd tag along on one mission to make sure he understood the ropes.

I guess what I am saying is I hope to see mods capable of making a more complex crew rotation system.

BUT there is one thing more - what's up with storms in SH4? Will they finally produce rare storms with waves 60 to 80 foot high, as in the Pacific typhoons that in one case capsized the DDs: Spence, Monaghan, and Hull, while knocking out a cruiser, and seriously damaging 5 light carriers and two other destroyers, with a loss of 146 planes? Das Boot aside (with its captain's optimistic view of storms), it seems that several US surfaced subs were destroyed in heavy seas when huge waves came up from behind them and more or less created the condition of a sub that had submerged without shutting its hatches. The salt water came in so heavy that it would wreck the batteries, short out most everything in the control room and leave the sub dead in the water until later waves would catch it drifting out of control and break it in half!

I wanta see those kinds of storms - not every other day, but once in a great while.

I know that in SH2 I could set the wind and waves to max overload and get conditions where my sub would make no headway into a storm (just like real). What I want is a sub that cannot check the sun and stars during storms, and that gets knocked with the wind off course so that like Das Boot, and like many real stories of subs in WWII the sub gets lost. I want that.

gimmie!

[Threadfin]

it seems that several US surfaced subs were destroyed in heavy seas when huge waves came up from behind them and more or less created the condition of a sub that had submerged without shutting its hatches.
Destroyed? Pooped yes, but destroyed? Which US boats were destroyed by wave action?

[Sailor Steve]

The wave action is called a following sea. The sea is actually pushing the ship from behind, causing a loss of control. There was one u-boat that lost it's watch crew, leaving the boat unprotected until the next watch came up to the bridge.

I have never heard of a submarine being lost due to a following sea. I too would like to know which ones this happened to.

[Wave Skipper]

the text stated that "...several U.S. submarines had nearly broached and sunk in heavy weather." In my memory I had dropped the word NEARLY. This is in the book The Bravest Man, about the career of O'Kane on the USS Tang, on page 98. It gives the one account of the Tarpon, where it was flooded by a huge wave which shorted out everything in the control room leaving the boat helpless in the storm unable to dive. On page 99 it states that it barely rode out the storm. So no sub was actually lost, but the submariners realized that the subs COULD be lost and in some cases almost were. It was talking in the context about 60 to 80 foot waves. Any ship without power can be sunk in a huge storm. Even sub hulls are not reality proof.

So my mistake. NEARLY sunk. I still want the huge waves and storms in my games.

[Sailor Steve]

Even sub hulls are not reality proof.
:rotfl: :rock: I like that one! It's so...true!