View Full Version : An historical convoy question vs. GWX
If any of you have read the excellent book "Dönitz and the wolfpacks" by Bernard (!:o) Edwards, you will notice the map at page 90, showing the route of convoy SC 94 from Sydney to the UK. What caught my attention, was that the convoys route went through the Bell Isle Strait, instead of going the "normal" way outside Cape Race / St. John's (as shown on the pic below):
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3586/bellx6rp.jpg
My question is:
1: Why did the convoy select this route, and is this route a part of GWX?
If not; would the Bell Isle strait be to narrow to implement this route?
Tigrone
01-21-07, 06:41 PM
SC 94 took the northern route because in high summer the ice had pulled back allowing them to, and it would keep them under air cover longer. This was very a very dangerous time and large wolfpacks were working east of Cape Race.
As it was, this became one of the major convoy battles of war. 11 ships were lost in the end. This convoy is where HMCS Assiniboine rammed and sank U-210 in a pretty desperate engagement in thick fog. I think one of the Assiniboine's crew got the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal for this action.
Thanx mate, that makes perfect sense! IIRC, Dönitz was aware of this convoys departure. Was he also aware of the route selected, or did he just assume that they would choose the northern route?
Edit: And was this route only used by eastbound convoys, from US to UK?
bigboywooly
01-22-07, 10:47 AM
Sorry for bumping eh
:rotfl:
Any info on how many convoys did that route Seth ?
Atleast two...:oops: :rotfl: I'll have to check the numbers. I think there was a large amount of the allied shipping going through that strait. I'll post the numbers ASAP.
Here is a quote from http://www.randomhouse.com/randomhouse/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9781588363855&view=excerpt:
German U-boats in so-called wolf packs infested the Strait of Belle Isle, aptly referred to as Torpedo Junction, between Labrador and Newfoundland Island. They had already sunk scores of Allied ships in these swirling waters.
Some other links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_St._Lawrence
http://uboat.net/articles/?article=29
bigboywooly
01-22-07, 11:13 AM
Thanx mate
Not so much the numbers as the frequency
If say it were done for 4 months of the year - every year - then the convoy routes could be altered to reflect that
If only one of 2 a year then probably better to script them individually
Will check out SC94 anyway
Interesting read
The convoy is sighted by U-593 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=593) when a group of 6 ships with 2 escorts has romped from the convoy due to the fog. U-593 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=593) attacks at once this small group and sinks one ship. U-593 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=593) is the driven off together with U-595 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=595).
The next day the boats cannot get close to the convoy : both U-454 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=454) and U-595 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=595) are severely damaged by the escorts and have return to port after the operation. U-210 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=210) is sunk by the Assiniboine.
From 7 Aug on, the outbound boats U-174 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=174), U-176 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=176), U-256 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=256), U-438 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=438), U-660 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=660) and U-705 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=705) reinforce the wolfpack. Until mid-day of the 8th all attacks from U-597 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=597), U-605 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=605), U-607 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=607), U-660 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=660) and U-704 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=704) fail or miss. Then U-176 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=176) and U-379 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=379) attack almost at the same time and sink three and two ships respectively. Confronted with the first serious attacks since nearly a year on the North Atlantic route, some complements on the merchant ships are panicking. Three ships are abandoned without reason and one of them is sunk by the U-176 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=176).
The escort is reinforced with the Polish destroyer Blyskawica and the British destroyer Broke and strikes back : the Dianthus sinks U-379 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=379). The destroyers are equipped with HF/DF (http://uboat.net/allies/technical/hfdf.htm) and all night long the escorts make offensive sweeps towards contact and manage to keep the boats at bay. Only U-595 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=595) and U-607 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=607) fire at the escort and the convoy but both miss.
Towards morning all escorts except the Primrose are behind the convoy sitting on a U-boat contact but fortunately for the convoy it leaves now the black pit and air escort from Sqdn 120 is provided. During day of the 9th U-174 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=174), U-254 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=254), U-256 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=256) and U-704 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=704) and in the morning of the 10th U-597 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=597) manage to fire at the convoy but no hits are secured. On mid-day the air escort temporarily drops out and since most of the escort are still chasing contacts on the rear, U-438 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=438) and U-660 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=660) can move in quickly and sink three and one ship respectively.
BBW, you are the master! :up: I think the time period was from early spring to late fall, as the coastguard used icebreakers to keep the lane open during icy times. At hard winter, i assume they used the south passage (SE of newfoundland) . My concern is the historical correctness in the scripting. This strait could turn out to be a new "english channel"..:hmm:
Edit: OT, but fun for the norwegians..:up: From: http://uboat.net/articles/index.html?article=29
Although no U-boats ever docked in Canadian coastal villages (legends to the contrary notwithstanding), they did manage to land a number of spies, including Lieutenant Langbein in the Bay of Fundy, New Brunswick, on May 14, 1942.
(For those english people, "Langbein" in Norway is actually this fellow:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c8/Goofy.gif/180px-Goofy.gif
johan_d
01-22-07, 11:35 AM
wow, would be nice if thats in GWX!
bigboywooly
01-22-07, 11:48 AM
From what I gather the uboats hunted there in spring and summer 42 then were pulled back to the atlantic
Then they had another go in 44
So I suppose I could reroute the 42 convoys through there from say april to Oct in 42 then the same in 44
There are no documented attack at any other time so can leave the other years as they are
From what I gather the uboats hunted there in spring and summer 42 then were pulled back to the atlantic
Then they had another go in 44
So I suppose I could reroute the 42 convoys through there from say april to Oct in 42 then the same in 44
There are no documented attack at any other time so can leave the other years as they are
Sounds excellent, mate! Will the patrol grid be given from BdU also (in the orders)?
bigboywooly
01-22-07, 11:57 AM
From what I gather the uboats hunted there in spring and summer 42 then were pulled back to the atlantic
Then they had another go in 44
So I suppose I could reroute the 42 convoys through there from say april to Oct in 42 then the same in 44
There are no documented attack at any other time so can leave the other years as they are
Sounds excellent, mate! Will the patrol grid be given from BdU also (in the orders)?
Will have to speak to Jaeson on that one as he knows that bit inside out
Should think its doable
May even script SC94 as a one off
Then can have a single and MP mission :hmm:
BBW, you are the master! :up: I think the time period was from early spring to late fall, as the coastguard used icebreakers to keep the lane open during icy times. At hard winter, i assume they used the south passage (SE of newfoundland) . My concern is the historical correctness in the scripting. This strait could turn out to be a new "english channel"..:hmm:
Edit: OT, but fun for the norwegians..:up: From: http://uboat.net/articles/index.html?article=29
Although no U-boats ever docked in Canadian coastal villages (legends to the contrary notwithstanding), they did manage to land a number of spies, including Lieutenant Langbein in the Bay of Fundy, New Brunswick, on May 14, 1942. (For those english people, "Langbein" in Norway is actually this fellow:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c8/Goofy.gif/180px-Goofy.gif
:rotfl:
Maybe Bernards lost brother, this lieutenant..:rotfl:
mr chris
01-22-07, 12:02 PM
Great find Seth anything that adds to the game is great work in my eyes:up:
From what I gather the uboats hunted there in spring and summer 42 then were pulled back to the atlantic
Then they had another go in 44
So I suppose I could reroute the 42 convoys through there from say april to Oct in 42 then the same in 44
There are no documented attack at any other time so can leave the other years as they are Sounds excellent, mate! Will the patrol grid be given from BdU also (in the orders)?
Will have to speak to Jaeson on that one as he knows that bit inside out
Should think its doable
May even script SC94 as a one off
Then can have a single and MP mission :hmm::up::up::up::up::up::up:
@mrchris: Im sure BBW will do his magic here, no doubt! And maybe an mp mission in the strait..Could be...intense...!!
bigboywooly
01-22-07, 12:05 PM
Great find Seth anything that adds to the game is great work in my eyes:up:
Anything that adds to my work is great in your eyes :rotfl:
Great find Seth anything that adds to the game is great work in my eyes:up:
Anything that adds to my work is great in your eyes :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
mr chris
01-22-07, 12:12 PM
Great find Seth anything that adds to the game is great work in my eyes:up:
Anything that adds to my work is great in your eyes :rotfl:
Not at all mate. You are one of the real hero's of the Modding sence in my eyes mate the amount of work you get through is out of this world. Without your's and Rubini's unselfish drive we would never have such a amazing campagin to play in GWX. That we have now.:yep:
I just wish we could clone you mate so you could play the game for a bit.:up:
bigboywooly
01-22-07, 12:28 PM
was only messing with a mate
Have asked Ref to see if Pack3d can be altered to clone a person
:rotfl:
Mind it could end up like that episode from the Simpsons
:rotfl:
mr chris
01-22-07, 12:39 PM
was only messing with a mate
Have asked Ref to see if Pack3d can be altered to clone a person
:rotfl:
Mind it could end up like that episode from the Simpsons
:rotfl:
No worries mate i know it was meant in jest but just felt like saying how much your work is apricatiated around here:up:
Well on the cloning side if Ref gets it to work i would not mind a clone of Christina Augulaira for myself:D
I just hope the wife does not se this.:rotfl:
bigboywooly
01-22-07, 12:45 PM
was only messing with a mate
Have asked Ref to see if Pack3d can be altered to clone a person
:rotfl:
Mind it could end up like that episode from the Simpsons
:rotfl:
No worries mate i know it was meant in jest but just felt like saying how much your work is apricatiated around here:up:
Well on the cloning side if Ref gets it to work i would not mind a clone of Christina Augulaira for myself:D
I just hope the wife does not se this.:rotfl:
Have forwarded to her
:doh:
bigboywooly
01-22-07, 01:41 PM
Something like this Seth ?
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8014/screenhunter1806vb.jpg
Added some other traffic through there as well
Have scripted SC 94 as a seperate now too
Complete with single and multimissions
http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/4245/screenhunter1813to.jpg
Do me a favour and stop reading Seth
OH MAN OH MAN OH MAN!!!!!!!!!!! NOBEL PRICE TO YOU, BBW!!!!!:up::up::up:
Stop reading....:rotfl::rotfl:Just wait, i have some more in the storage compartments for you!!! But this is excellent!!! Dang, you are good!:up:
BTW BBW: Could this overwrite the existing RND file in GWX?
bigboywooly
01-23-07, 09:29 AM
The Jan update will include an updated rnd and scr to take into account other changes
This will be a part of those new campaign files
The Jan update will include an updated rnd and scr to take into account other changes
This will be a part of those new campaign files
Ok, sounds great, mate!! I really appreciate this, you know!! :up: :up:
Jimbuna
01-23-07, 11:38 AM
@BBW
Stop yabbering on with the natives and start rowing faster....Caesar wants to go water skiing :arrgh!:
:rotfl:
:rotfl::rotfl:Heck, he's doing an excellent thing!:up:
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