Chavez to rule by decree

[Torpedo Fodder]

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6277379.stm?ls)

Rule by decree passed for Chavez

Venezuela's National Assembly has given initial approval to a bill granting the president the power to bypass congress and rule by decree for 18 months.

President Hugo Chavez says he wants "revolutionary laws" to enact sweeping political, economic and social changes.
He has said he wants to nationalise key sectors of the economy and scrap limits on the terms a president can serve.
Mr Chavez began his third term in office last week after a landslide election victory in December.
The bill allowing him to enact laws by decree is expected to win final approval easily in the assembly on its second reading on Tuesday.
Venezuela's political opposition has no representation in the National Assembly since it boycotted elections in 2005.

Pledge

Mr Chavez approved 49 laws by decree during the first year of his previous term, after the assembly passed a similar "Enabling Law" in November 2000.
Now the president says an Enabling Law is a key step in what he calls an accelerating march toward socialism.
He has said he wants to see major Venezuelan power and telecoms companies come under state control.
Mr Chavez also called for an end to foreign ownership of lucrative crude oil refineries in the Orinoco region.
Critics of the president accuse him of trying to build an authoritarian regime with all institutional powers consolidated into his own hands.
But, National Assembly President Cilia Flores said "there will always be opponents, and especially when they know that these laws will deepen the revolution".
Campaigning for the elections last year, Mr Chavez vowed he would strengthen his "Bolivarian revolution", named after the 19th-Century Latin American independence fighter.

So, I wonder how many peple there are left who still think this guy isn't a dictator, or worse, think he's some kind of a hero just because he hates Bush? Somehow, I bet the likes of Cindy Sheehan, Harry Belafonte and Danny Glover will still cheer him on despite this.

[Officerpuppy]

I think he did bring about some positive changes/reforms for his country, but what he's doing there is going over the line. The balance between the poor and rich in latin america is very great, there virtually is no middle class, but I don't think having almost dictatorial powers is the way to go about solving things either. :shifty:

[Marcantilan]

Well, Chavez is always following Castro´s advices (and Castro is not a democrat, for sure)

Sadly, this is the beginning of the end of another fragile South American democracy...

[Yahoshua]

I believe we have just witnessed the very means by which a democratic government will be dismantled and replaced with a dictatorship, namely ours.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

i support venezuela , cuba and north korea(a little bit i dont like their nuke policy) i support socialism because capitalism is pathetic IMHO , socialism everything is paid for esp university in america u pay thousands of dollars for a few pills :nope::nope: or a few hundred thou for a simple operation:nope::nope: luckily i live in canada and im proud of canada that our health care system is free and 2nd best in world only being beaten by american private health care

(almost) free education:rock::rock::rock:
free health care:rock::rock::rock:
high taxes:rock::rock:(rather have high taxes then to have low taxes and pay for every little thing)

anyone else agree here that free education and health care is THE #1 MOST IMPORTANT thing a country HAS to HAVE no matter what?

[Yahoshua]

Just wait until you have no freedoms and are unable to make enough money to feed yourself, see how proud you'll be of socialism then.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

Just wait until you have no freedoms and are unable to make enough money to feed yourself, see how proud you'll be of socialism then.

typical [snip] Yugoslavia before they broke up i lived there and everything was good there was very little crime lots of jobs and people were satisfied, health and education were as good as american health system (Not better or same obviously) then stupid NATO comes in with dumb UN and tears apart the entire country now my country is nothing but a shame with corrupt democrats and crime and drugs and poverty.

[CCIP]

While I would question Mr. Chavez' course of action, I do agree in part: when people are in a desperate situation economically, many freedoms that a middle-class-centred society considers crucial matter little to them. Someone who promises them an even marginally better living is seen as a saviour then. This is true of my native Russia.

You can yell about it as much as you like, but I don't think a more democratic regime can even promise so much as stability in this case. In this case I'm not surprised that many poorer countries are turning to socialism; in some cases it certainly ends up a human rights wreck, but I don't think it's a fantastic deal to be democratic and with a hopelessly empoverished population, either.

[joea]

i support venezuela , cuba and north korea(a little bit i dont like their nuke policy)

North Korea? :nope: Nothing in common with the other two...plus they are dirt poor and have a nutty leader. Anyway, let me remind you folks Chavez WAS elected....second I HATE this opposing of "abstract" vs. "concrete" human rights, while I agree with CCIP I don't think in the long term it is a good thing to deny freedom for the human sprit even if the body is cared for (which is a necessary factor) .

[waste gate]

While I would question Mr. Chavez' course of action, I do agree in part: when people are in a desperate situation economically, many freedoms that a middle-class-centred society considers crucial matter little to them. Someone who promises them an even marginally better living is seen as a saviour then. This is true of my native Russia.

You can yell about it as much as you like, but I don't think a more democratic regime can even promise so much as stability in this case. In this case I'm not surprised that many poorer countries are turning to socialism; in some cases it certainly ends up a human rights wreck, but I don't think it's a fantastic deal to be democratic and with a hopelessly empoverished population, either.


The problem is that socialist leaders are little more than dictators in training.
Show us where a country with many poor people have been elevated to middle class standards under a socialist system. I don't see many Cubans, Bolivians, Venezualians, or anyone from a socialist country on the internet. I cannot think of a better sign that that nation has a thriving middle class.

[Sea Demon]

The problem is that socialist leaders are little more than dictators in training.
Show us where a country with many poor people have been elevated to middle class standards under a socialist system. I don't see many Cubans, Bolivians, Venezualians, or anyone from a socialist country on the internet. I cannot think of a better sign that that nation has a thriving middle class.


You won't find it. Socialism is a con job. It promises everything and delivers nothing. The one thing that promoters of socialism can't seem to get is that there is this thing called "human nature". Incentive is a part of human nature. When you operate with a system that virtually kills incentive to produce, you ultimately end up with less for everyone. And when you end up with less, your system looks crappy. That's when the political oppression begins in these little crackpot socialist dictatorships. The big problem is Socialists think that people are either robots or can be made to function like an ant colony. I'm actually hoping the "enlightened" :roll: ones will finally see Socialism as the con job that it is. Karl Marx was a bum who was not a net producer in his own society. So of course he would write about the wonders of "collectivism". Geesh. It ain't so hard to see the con job.

[waste gate]

The problem is that socialist leaders are little more than dictators in training.
Show us where a country with many poor people have been elevated to middle class standards under a socialist system. I don't see many Cubans, Bolivians, Venezualians, or anyone from a socialist country on the internet. I cannot think of a better sign that that nation has a thriving middle class.


You won't find it. Socialism is a con job. It promises everything and delivers nothing. The one thing that promoters of socialism can't seem to get is that there is this thing called "human nature". Incentive is a part of human nature. When you operate with a system that virtually kills incentive to produce, you ultimately end up with less for everyone. And when you end up with less, your system looks crappy. That's when the political oppression begins in these little crackpot socialist dictatorships. The big problem is Socialists think that people are either robots or can be made to function like an ant colony. I'm actually hoping the "enlightened" :roll: ones will finally see Socialism as the con job that it is. Karl Marx was a bum who was not a net producer in his own society. So of course he would write about the wonders of "collectivism". Geesh. It ain't so hard to see the con job.


So what you are saying is the only people who want socialism are those who either can't or won't give back, by productivity, to that society?

[XabbaRus]

This is going slightly OT but why is it when ever anyone says that having a free National Health Care system is a good idea they are suddenly a socialist or communist. Geez even your most committed Tory in Britain likes the fact we have an NHS no matter how imperfect. It's one of those things once you have lost it it is impossible to get back.

Health care free in Canada? I heard you still have to pay up front but you get it back later.

[XabbaRus]

Just wait until you have no freedoms and are unable to make enough money to feed yourself, see how proud you'll be of socialism then.
typical [snip] look at Yugoslavia before they broke up i lived there and everything was good there was very little crime lots of jobs and people were satisfied, health and education were as good as american health system (Not better or same obviously) then stupid NATO comes in with dumb UN and tears apart the entire country now my country is nothing but a shame with corrupt democrats and crime and drugs and poverty.

Going slightly OT, but didn't Yugoslavia tear itself up and NATO and the UN picked up the pieces? And while I don't necessarily agree with Yahoshua that socialism = restrictions on freedoms per se the examples we have did impose restrictions however I think he simplifies it too much.

[Sea Demon]

So what you are saying is the only people who want socialism are those who either can't or won't give back, by productivity, to that society?

Absolutely not. There are a couple people I've worked with who believe in this stuff like it's a religion. Both net producers of society. I think they had a general "fear of envy" thing going on though. But if you look at the life of Karl Marx, he was not a net producer at all. He was a "philosopher" "poet" "essayist" "political economist". Don't get me wrong. I think poets and essayists are important parts of a nation's culture. However it's not a field that produces much in terms of a nation's capital. I'm just saying it's so easy to see the fraud perpetrated by Marx. It's unfortunate that it has endured and the pursuit of it has destroyed so many lives.

[CCIP]

I would claim that rampant capitalism under democratic regimes destroyed just as many if not more... It works decently well when stabilized and restrained by law, and more importantly - guarded by a strong and numerous middle class, but it is a huge problem for societies where the economy is grasped by a relatively small elite, which is where it becomes as bad if not worse than a socialist dictatorship. Unfortunately I'm seeing this concentration tendency even in the West now... No wonder there are Eastern Europeans who look back to the communist regimes - it's not the government system, it's the relative socioeconomic stability (everyone being near-equally ********ed is a way of stabilizing things, of course). Nor is it any wonder that there are nations with huge empoverished majorities who have little affinity for liberal democracy as well.

[waste gate]

So what you are saying is the only people who want socialism are those who either can't or won't give back, by productivity, to that society?

Absolutely not. There are a couple people I've worked with who believe in this stuff like it's a religion. Both net producers of society. I think they had a general "fear of envy" thing going on though. But if you look at the life of Karl Marx, he was not a net producer at all. He was a "philosopher" "poet" "essayist" "political economist". Don't get me wrong. I think poets and essayists are important parts of a nation's culture. However it's not a field that produces much in terms of a nation's capital. I'm just saying it's so easy to see the fraud perpetrated by Marx. It's unfortunate that it has endured and the pursuit of it has destroyed so many lives.

Don't back off your position. You are correct. It has been my experience that the only people who want socialism are those who either can't or won't give back.
Those who proclaim they are 'for the peolple' are those who's wealth give them a standing which makes them emune to the uphevel they advocate. As example, I give you the Barbara Streisands of the world.

[Sea Demon]

Don't back off your position. You are correct. It has been my experience that the only people who want socialism are those who either can't or won't give back.
Those who proclaim they are 'for the peolple' are those who's wealth give them a standing which makes them emune to the uphevel they advocate. As example, I give you the Barbara Streisands of the world.

I hear you. But I'm not backing off my position that socialism is a con job that was derived from a bum (Karl Marx) that was not a net producer of his society. You are correct that "collectivism" is heralded largely by those who don't give or produce for society. But I think the other motivator is some sort of a "fear of envy" or elitism by those who have produced wealth like the Barbara Streisands of the world. At any rate, it's nothing but a giant scam.

[Sea Demon]

I would claim that rampant capitalism under democratic regimes destroyed just as many if not more... It works decently well when stabilized and restrained by law, and more importantly - guarded by a strong and numerous middle class, but it is a huge problem for societies where the economy is grasped by a relatively small elite, which is where it becomes as bad if not worse than a socialist dictatorship. Unfortunately I'm seeing this concentration tendency even in the West now... No wonder there are Eastern Europeans who look back to the communist regimes - it's not the government system, it's the relative socioeconomic stability (everyone being near-equally ********ed is a way of stabilizing things, of course). Nor is it any wonder that there are nations with huge empoverished majorities who have little affinity for liberal democracy as well.

Hogwash. All of it. Capitalism has always given and created more opportunity than any other type of society in existence. Not only that, we have enjoyed a higher standard of living as well. Capitalism w/Democracy has not destroyed or politically repressed like those nations that have sought Socialism/Communism in the 20th Century. I think the count is at 100 million in the 20th Century dead by regimes grasping for the Socialist utopia. The problem that you see is that not everyone is guaranteed an equal outcome. But you fail to see that in a free and capitalistic society, there is a freedom to pursue. There is a freedom to invest. There is a freedom to become rather than be directed. This is what drives human nature. You are never going to be assured that everyone has everything on an equal footing. That's OK. As long as there is an opportunity for everyone to succeed. And right now, that exists. Well at least in the USA.

Those empoverished nations you talk about are ones who are not embracing capitalism as a basis for economic development or growth. As long as you pursue equal outcomes as a substitute for equal opportunity, you're screwed. Sorry, but I don't want to be equally miserable as everyone else. Let me be free and allow me to invest, innovate, and produce. The problem with the socialist is that they believe innovation/investment success is something to be punished because it doesn't guarantee equal outcomes. Do you see a flaw in punishing success CCIP for a nation to grow? Especially to make everyone equally f**ked as you say? I sure do. This is why Socialism is doomed. And will always be doomed. It is a con job that goes against the interests of human nature. Nothing anybody can do to change it. Human beings are neither robots or ants.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

Just wait until you have no freedoms and are unable to make enough money to feed yourself, see how proud you'll be of socialism then.
typical [snip] look at Yugoslavia before they broke up i lived there and everything was good there was very little crime lots of jobs and people were satisfied, health and education were as good as american health system (Not better or same obviously) then stupid NATO comes in with dumb UN and tears apart the entire country now my country is nothing but a shame with corrupt democrats and crime and drugs and poverty.
Going slightly OT, but didn't Yugoslavia tear itself up and NATO and the UN picked up the pieces? And while I don't necessarily agree with Yahoshua that socialism = restrictions on freedoms per se the examples we have did impose restrictions however I think he simplifies it too much.

the only reason yugoslavia split up is because of foreign intervention what happened was PARAMILITARY (rogue units who didnt listen to government) they killed innocent civilians the real army who did listen to the government never comited these atrocities , how do i know this? because my uncle was a general for the yugoslav army and he was never givin orders to kill innocent civilians he testified this in the hague. milosevic was murdered in the hague all the b.s propaganda said he died of a problem with his heart. now NATO bombed schools , hospitals and Bridges, since when do schools and hospitals help the military strategically during wartime??? heres my proof

http://www.designforafrica.com/pictures/dia_04_03mid.jpg

this was a former hospital as u can see NATO did bomb hospitals and civilian infrastructutre wile bombing some military targets, NATO has proven to be ineffective in neutralizing our military only effective in tearing us apart thus getting rid of a strong power in europe and getting rid of our economy and causing us to change to some pathetic form of democratic government right now for us to get back on our feet is to bee communist and everyone works for the nation so it can be rebuilt. then when its strong enough THEN we change to a good form of democracy not capitalism.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

the paramilitary were the ones responsible for the genocides in kosovo and bosnia they are the shame in our nation they were a bunch of frustrated units who thought they were doing something good but in fact were making things worse. the government was blamed for this even though they were trying to stop it. thats why i believe that CLinton or any clinton member is a idiot a BIG idiot, clinton didnt get his facts right and for that i hope he rots in hell if anyone here can even think of lecturing me on my familys history and my countries problems and history then u might as well cut ur internet cable.

[U-533]

i support venezuela , cuba and north korea(a little bit i dont like their nuke policy) i support socialism because capitalism is pathetic IMHO , socialism everything is paid for esp university in america u pay thousands of dollars for a few pills :nope: or a few hundred thou for a simple operation:nope: luckily i live in canada and im proud of canada that our health care system is free and 2nd best in world only being beaten by american private health care

(almost) free education:rock::rock:
free health care:rock::rock:
high taxes:rock:(rather have high taxes then to have low taxes and pay for every little thing)

anyone else agree here that free education and health care is THE #1 MOST IMPORTANT thing a country HAS to HAVE no matter what?


:huh:
Obviously you have never lived in a socialist country.
It is not what most people have been lead to believe.
Some one has to pay for all that free stuff.
:huh:

Here, where I live, only the "MOOCHERS" want a free ride, and even when they get the free ride they do not appreciate it.

:huh:

The term "MOOCHER" is used here as a person who can work but refuseto and recieves Government Money.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

i support venezuela , cuba and north korea(a little bit i dont like their nuke policy) i support socialism because capitalism is pathetic IMHO , socialism everything is paid for esp university in america u pay thousands of dollars for a few pills :nope: or a few hundred thou for a simple operation:nope: luckily i live in canada and im proud of canada that our health care system is free and 2nd best in world only being beaten by american private health care

(almost) free education:rock::rock:
free health care:rock::rock:
high taxes:rock:(rather have high taxes then to have low taxes and pay for every little thing)

anyone else agree here that free education and health care is THE #1 MOST IMPORTANT thing a country HAS to HAVE no matter what?

:huh:
Obviously you have never lived in a socialist country.
It is not what most people have been lead to believe.
Some one has to pay for all that free stuff.
:huh:

Here, where I live, only the "MOOCHERS" want a free ride, and even when they get the free ride they do not appreciate it.

:huh:

The term "MOOCHER" is used here as a person who can work but refuseto and recieves Government Money.

obviously uve been brainwashed i have physical proof from family from random people from my country that i have asked in the 60's 70's and 80's yugoslavia was strong they had a stable economy and had a good government so dont go calling around people that believe in socialism moochers because socialists work for each other the only reason why people think socialism is bad because it was said by the americans that it was communism communism is the dictatorship form of socialism yugoslavia was democratic socialism why Josef Tito was a croatian leader he was the glue that held yugoslavia together he was so good he was elected over and over until he passed away may he rest in peace. serbs were never fond of croatian leaders but tito they admired him and respected him and would die for him if they ever had to, after he died in the late 80's everything started going downhill from there.

[TteFAboB]

So, I wonder how many peple there are left who still think this guy isn't a dictator

As many as those who believe that democracy is the opposite of dictatorship, when in fact it is its cause. The magic word is vote. Tell them there was a voting and they'll buy it, even if there's fraud, even if the Executive has unlimited power over everything else. As Stalin said: "It's not who votes that counts, it's who counts the votes".

The balance between the poor and rich in latin america is very great, there virtually is no middle class

Latin America is a very big continent, it includes South, Central and some would like to throw in Mexico aswell. There is a middle class in virtually every country. The "balance" between poor and rich varies tremendously from country to country too.

Well, Chavez is always following Castro´s advices (and Castro is not a democrat, for sure)

Sadly, this is the beginning of the end of another fragile South American democracy...

Talk about fragility. How many constitutions did Venezuela had? 26? Is this the 27th? Sometimes it is better to respect and maintain the laws you have than to change to better ones. What good is a good law if nobody is willing to respect it or believe that they'll last no more than a few years? At least Nestor Kirchner takes advantage of the chaos in Mercosur to remain friendly but not submissive to Chavez, unlike his goons in Bolivia and Ecuador. But that's Argentina's prerogative as South America's 2nd economy. Chavez needs Argentina, especially for legitimacy, more than the reverse.

I believe we have just witnessed the very means by which a democratic government will be dismantled and replaced with a dictatorship, namely ours.

You believe wrong. Chavez is facing from 30% to 40% of opposition. Americans would reach that level in half a year of similar policies. Granted, I didn't see much rejection to Pelosi's proposal to create a public national radio station together with that law that breaks the spine of the little ones.

anyone else agree here that free education and health care is THE #1 MOST IMPORTANT thing a country HAS to HAVE no matter what

I agree. If with free education you can barely write, imagine how far you would be without it! Just kidding, you can probably write decently in Serbian or something else.

I do agree in part: when people are in a desperate situation economically, many freedoms that a middle-class-centred society considers crucial matter little to them. Someone who promises them an even marginally better living is seen as a saviour then. This is true of my native Russia

Venezuela was economically better off before Chavez than it is now, there were less people in desperate situations before him than there are now and unlike Russia Chavez never had unanimous support to do as he pleased, Lenin won the war and Stalin crushed whatever opposition existed, real or virtual, and that's the reason for the slow centralization of power, he must do what is possible, only as far as he can go safely, it is actually the reason why Chavez has taken this measure: Herbert Koeneke, chief of the political sciences department of University Simon Bolivar, is saying that the current surprise-escalation of authoritarianism is due to the 20% decline in the price of Oil since past August, something that "scares him [Chavez] alot". Notice how this "Lei Habilitante" was passed on congress three days after Rafael Ramírez, Oil & Energy minister, attempted to negotiate with the OPEP a cut in global Oil production to raise the price back up by 10%. Far from any planned master messianic plan, it is a desperate measure to avoid bankrupcy.

The saviour has been exposed, now it's a matter of avoiding popular insurrection and securing power, appealing to the groups that are happy to cling to the priviledges Chavez provides. Everything depending on a high Oil price.

You can yell about it as much as you like, but I don't think a more democratic regime can even promise so much as stability in this case. In this case I'm not surprised that many poorer countries are turning to socialism; in some cases it certainly ends up a human rights wreck, but I don't think it's a fantastic deal to be democratic and with a hopelessly empoverished population, either.

You can yell as much as you like too but it doesn't change the fact that Venezuela is empoverishing. What do you mean by "stability"? Have you seen the 2 million people protest against Chavez in the last election? The "Chavista" gangs that are taking control of Caracas, who fired against the crowd killing two and who are beginning to demand protection money like a mafia, soon to be officialized in the "Bairrista" association of Caracas? The Venezuelan economy and internal peace hanging on the price of Oil, his plan to control financial operations plummeting Caraca's stock market by 30%, destroying the retirement savings of thousands of Venezuelans, the situation is so dire Marco Aurélio Garcia from Brazil has said that the "Brazilian government will support Venezuela's industrial development, with investments, technology transfers and cooperative projects" because "Venezuela can't continue to live exclusively from Oil". What's currently being done in partnership are two refineries, one in Carabobo one in Refice, the final planning of a transcontinental gasoduct, the subway of Caracas is being financed by the Brazilian BNDES, all of this because Chavez's resources are limited to the Oil revenue and he's running short of it. The profits of the PDVSA are being eaten by the outbreak of inflation which has been out of control for a while now, so much for stability. Chavez opened the Orinoco bay to foreign companies because he lacked the money necessary to invest to pump the Oil out. Now, a few years later, after the platforms have been built, he comes to announce that he's taking control of the platforms. He "did the Lenin", just like in Baku. He wants to implement a policy of "substitution of imports". Many countries in South America attempted to implement these policies back in the 70's and some of the early 80's. It's an attempt to force the creation of national industries to replace what has to be imported. All failed, miserably. It was a complete disaster because no country ever had a fraction of the money required to do such a thing and as mentioned Chavez doesn't even have the funds to invest in the Oil industry, his source of power, let alone in the entire industry.

Venezuela has empoverished and will now lag behind without funds to construct anything but worse, it will fail to keep pace with other South American countries. A fantastic deal. No democracy, no wealth, no stability. Granted Venezuela has never been an example of democracy or stability or wealth. It does take skill to manage to worsen the situation even more, but far from unintended it is methodic: the poorer the population the more submissive it is.

Anyway, let me remind you folks Chavez WAS elected....

Elected for what? To leave office after 5 years. Nope, not anymore, he's been democratically elected to destroy the democratic institutions, to destroy democracy. Fear not joea, the time has come at last for unlimited re-elections. Let's see how many times we can say that he has been elected before raising an eyebrow. "Don't forget guys, Chavez has been elected for the 56th time, consecutive!". Not even Saddam had 100% of the congress in his hands.

However, even here the situation is changing for the worse. Chavez has announced that he will reform the "federation". Instead of city councils and provincial governments, both will be merged into new units that will not be elected, but legitimated by small assemblies. Not even 1/10th of the population will be represented nor be allowed to vote.

More later, ran out of time. It's incredible what a label can do. The guy says he's building the Socialism of the 21th century and nobody bothers checking what's going on before jumping to promised dreams.

[tycho102]

http://www.geocities.com/che_lbc/guevara.jpg

Komrade Che Approves!

[Sea Demon]

Komrade Che Approves!

Che's dead. :dead:

[elite_hunter_sh3]

che was a good man and a good leader he had potential to control all of south america and unite all the countries tere under one gigantic hispanic nation . good for him :up::rock: may he rest in peace

[Sea Demon]

che was a good man and a good leader he had potential to control all of south america and unite all the countries tere under one gigantic hispanic nation . good for him :up::rock: may he rest in peace

Che was a murdering thug. And he wasted his life vying for something that will never be.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

che was a good man and a good leader he had potential to control all of south america and unite all the countries tere under one gigantic hispanic nation . good for him :up::rock: may he rest in peace
Che was a murdering thug. And he wasted his life vying for something that will never be.

right now i believe ur a boob who jumps to conclusions show me the evidence and i will believe you.
have a nice day.:cool:

[Sea Demon]

right now i believe ur a boob who jumps to conclusions show me the evidence and i will believe you.
have a nice day.:cool:

If you don't know who Che was, that's your problem. ;) I'm not going to do your homework for ya'.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

i know who che was and i know wut his goals were. im jus pissed off that ur talking all this smack and not supporting it with evidence

[U-533]

i know who che was and i know wut his goals were. im jus pissed off that ur talking all this smack and not supporting it with evidence

:huh: aah Duude ah... Dude your like starting to freak and ah Dude... Its not that bigga deal... soooo like chill Dude and loosen up yaahh:smug:

:roll:

[elite_hunter_sh3]

#1 i dont do weed
#2 im in a baad mood today stupid internet kept crashing

[The Avon Lady]

i know who che was and i know wut his goals were. im jus pissed off that ur talking all this smack and not supporting it with evidence
Child of the world, grow up and learn:
Che Guevara: 39 Years of Idolatry (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=24800)
By Humberto Fontova
October 9, 2006

Thirty nine years ago last week, Ernesto "Che" Guevara got a major dose of his own medicine. Without trial he was declared a murderer, stood against a wall and shot. Historically speaking, justice has rarely been better served. If the saying, "what goes around comes around" ever fit, it's here. The number of men Che's "revolutionary tribunals" condemned to death in the identical manner range from 400 to 1,892. The number of defenseless men (and boys) Che personally murdered with his own pistol runs to the dozens. Imagine Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, and Son of Sam t-shirts on such as Johnny Depp and Prince Harry. Granted, these last three didn't match Che's murder tally.

"Executions?" Che Guevara exclaimed while addressing the hallowed halls of the UN General Assembly December 9, 1964. "Certainly, we execute! " he declared to the claps and cheers of that August body. "And we will continue executing (emphasis his) as long as it is necessary! This is a war to the DEATH against the Revolution's enemies!"

According to the Black Book of Communism those firing squad executions had reached around 10,000 by that time. Sloboban Milosevic, by the way, went on trial for allegedly ordering 8,000 executions. The charge against him by the same UN that deliriously applauded Che Guevara's proud proclamation was "genocide."

The "revolutions' enemies" being bound, gagged and murdered by Che and his henchmen were among the most enterprising and valiant fighters of the 20th century. These Cuban freedom-fighters ranked alongside the Polish Home Army and the Hungarian Freedom-Fighters. They fought just as valiantly, as desperately-- and ultimately--just as hopelessly. They fought to the last bullet and usually to the death.

Most heartbreaking of all, they fought alone and abandoned. They specialized in ripping off their gags and blindfolds to yell "VIVA CRISTO REY! or " VIVA CUBA LIBRE!" or "ABAJO COMUNISMO!"before the bullets shattered their bodies and the coup de grace from Che's henchman shattered their skulls.

The few survivors live in places like Miami and New Jersey today and qualify as the longest-suffering political prisoners in modern history. But you'll look for their stories on the History Channel, PBS, the New York Times, etc., in vain. They fought the Left's premier pin-up boys, you see. So their heroism doesn't qualify as Politically-Correct drama.

To be ignored would be bad enough. Instead, whenever acknowledged the media parrots the Castroite slander against them of "terrorists" and "mafiosi." It's a tribute to the MSM and academia's incurable obtuseness and imbecility that they still depict Castro/Che as the "plucky underdogs" against an aggressive colossus--when that collosus was in fact protecting Castro's regime, as pledged to Nikita Khrushchev by JFK in October 1962.

"I don't need proof to execute a man" snapped Che to a judicial underling in 1959. "I only need proof that it's necessary to execute him!"

Not that you'd surmise any of the above from the mainstream media or academia-- much less Hollywood. From the high priests of the Fourth Estate Che Guevara gets only accolades. Time magazine, for instance, honors Che Guevara among "The 100 Most Important People of the Century."

The man who declared, "a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate," (and set a spirited example,) who boasted that he executed from "revolutionary conviction" rather than from any "archaic bourgeois details" like judicial evidence, and who urged "atomic extermination" as the final solution for those American "hyenas," (and came hearth-thumpingly close with Nuclear missiles in October 1962) is hailed by Time--not just among the "most important" people of the Century--but in the "Heroes and Icons" section, alongside Anne Frank, Andrei Sakharov, and Rosa Parks.

"If the nuclear missiles had remained we would have used them against the very heart of America, including New York City," Che Guevara confided to the London Daily Worker in November of 1962. "We will march the path of victory even if it costs millions of atomic victims...We must keep our hatred alive and fan it to paroxysm." This was Che's prescription for America almost half a century before Osama Bin Laden, Mullah Omar, and Al-Zarqawi appeared on our radar screens.

But for the prudence of Nikita Khrushchev, Che Guevara's fondest wish would have made New York's 9/11 explosions appear like an errant cherry bomb. Yet listed alongside Che Guevara in Time's "Heroes and Icons of the Century," is Mother Theresa. From here the ironies only get richer.

The most popular version of Che t-shirt, for instance, sports the slogan "Fight Oppression" under his famous face. This is the face of a man who co-founded a regime that jailed more of it's subjects than Hitler or Stalin's and declared that "individualism must disappear!" In 1959, with the help of Soviet GRU agents, the man celebrated on that t-shirt helped found, train and indoctrinate Cuba's secret police. "Always interrogate your prisoners at night," Che ordered his goons. "A man's resistance is always lower at night." Today the world's largest Che mural adorns Cuba's Ministry of the Interior, the headquarters for Cuba's KGB and STASI trained secret police. Nothing could be more fitting.

Yet somehow, this same image is considered the height of hipness on everything from shirts, watches and snowboards, to thong underwear and an undisclosed location on Angelina Jolie's epidermis. Ms Jolie, by the way, recently won the UN's "Global Humanitarian Award" for her work with refugees.

Will someone please inform Angelina Jolie that her tattoo idol, with his firing squads and prison-camps, provoked one of the biggest refugee crises in the history of this hemisphere. On top of the 2 million who made it with only the clothes on their back, the Cuban Archives project, meticulously compiled and documented by scholars Maria Werlau and Dr Armando Lago, estimate that close to 80,000 Cubans have died of thirst and exposure, have drown, or have been ripped apart by sharks attempting to flee the handiwork of the man "Ms Global Humanitarian" honors by having him permanently emblazoned on her skin.

Yet prior to Fidel and Che's glorious reign, Cuba took in more immigrants (primarily from Europe) as a percentage of population than the U.S, and this includes the Ellis Island years. Prior to the glorious Cuban revolution people were as desperate to enter Cuba (especially from neighboring Haiti and Jamaica) as they are now to exit Cuba (at extreme risk to life and limb.) Perhaps Castro acolyte Charlie Rangel can explain this? Perhaps Jesse "Viva Fidel! Viva Che!" Jackson can explain it?

Not that ignorance, willful or otherwise, is exactly rare on the topic of Cuba or Che Guevara. When Carlos Santana and Eric Burdon, (among many other rockers) smugly sport their elegant Che t-shirts they plug a regime that in the mid to late 60's rounded up "roqueros" (Cuban rock & roll fans) and long hairs en masse, and herded them into prison camps for forced labor under a scorching sun. These young prisoners' "counter-revolutionary crimes" often involved nothing more than listening to music by The Animals and Santana.

When Madonna camped it up in her Che outfit for the cover of her American Life CD, she plugged a regime that criminalized homosexuals and anything smacking of gay mannerisms. In the mid 60's the crime of effeminate behavior got thousands of youths yanked off Cuba's streets and parks by secret police and dumped in prison camps with "Work Will Make Men Out of You" in bold letters above the gate (the one at Auschwitz' gate read: "Work Will Set You Free) and with machine gunners posted on the watchtowers. The initials for these camps were UMAP, not GULAG, but the conditions were identical.

"Iron" Mike Tyson used to end fights with his arms upraised in triumph. In 2002, he got a huge Che tattoo on his torso, visited Cuba, and has been consistently and horribly stomped in fight after fight ever since, a process perfectly mimicking the combat record of his tattoo idol. Che was indeed proficient at smiting his enemies, Mike, thousands of them--but only after they were bound, gagged, and blindfolded. Chances are nobody disclosed this to you in Cuba, much less in the mainstream media. But I'm afraid the World Boxing Association won't allow it anyway.

When the crowd of A-list hipsters and Beautiful People at the Sundance Film Festival (which included everyone from Tipper and Al Gore to Sharon Stone, Meryl Streep, and Paris Hilton) exploded in a rapturous standing ovation for Robert Redford's The Motorcycle Diaries, they were cheering a film glorifying a man who jailed or exiled most of Cuba's best writers, poets and independent film-makers while converting Cuba's press and cinema--at Czech machine-gun point-- into propaganda agencies for a Stalinist regime.

Executive producer of the movie, Robert Redford (who always kicks off the film festival with a long dirge about the importance of artistic freedom) was forced to screen the film for Che's widow (who heads Cuba's Che Guevara Studies Center) and Fidel Castro for their approval before release. We can only imagine the shrieks of outrage from the Sundance crowd--about "censorship!" and "selling out!"-- had, say, Robert Ackerman required (and acquiesced in) Nancy Reagan's approval to release HBO's The Reagans that same year.

Che groupies are many and varied. Christopher Hitchens, for instance marvels at Che's "untamable defiance" and assures us in the same New York Times article that "Che was no hypocrite."

The noted historian Benicio Del Toro, who will star as his hero in a Hollywood Biopic due next year, says: "Che was just one of those guys who walked the walk and talked the talk. There's just something cool about people like that. The more I get to know Che, the more I respect him."

More than his cruelty, megalomania or even his epic stupidity, what most distinguished Ernesto "Che" Guevara from his peers was his sniveling cowardice. His groupies can run off in a huff, slam their bedroom door, and dive headfirst into their beds sobbing and kicking and punching the pillows all they want-- but Che surrendered to the Bolivan Rangers voluntarily, from a safe distance, and was captured physically sound and with a fully loaded pistol.

One day before his death in Bolivia, Che Guevara--for the first time in his life--finally faced something properly describable as combat. So he ordered his guerrilla charges to give no quarter, to fight to their last breaths, and to their last bullet. A few hours later his "untamable defiance," lack of hypocrisy and "walking of the walk " all manifested themselves. With his men doing just what he ordered ( fighting and dying to the last bullet) a slightly wounded Che snuck away from the firefight and surrendered with a full clip in his pistol while whimpering to his captors: "Don't Shoot! I'm Che I'm worth more to you alive than dead!"

His Bolivian captors begged to differ.
All I can add in reference to this communist butcher is:

SPIT.

UPDATE: Viva Capitalism! (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=17277_Viva_Capitalism!&only)

[The Avon Lady]

While we're close to the subject, let's not leave out Castro: Monster (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18739).

Spit.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

ok first of all how is tis real is this authentic u have evidence supporting these ridculous trash talk?

[CCIP]

I hate to sound aggressive, but fortunately bull***t rhetoric spans both sides of the political spectrum. Great stuff :roll:

[The Avon Lady]

ok first of all how is tis real is this authentic u have evidence supporting these ridculous trash talk?
Close your eyes. Maybe it will all go away. Poof.

Don't bother independently verifying the quotations yourself.

Don't bother learning what others refuse to teach you.

Sweet dreams.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

ok screw this thread nothing but a bunch of pro capitalists zionist americans and israelies DOESNT ANYONE NOTICE ALL THE BAD STUFF AMERICA AND ISRAEL DO TO OTHER COUNTRIES HERES A LIST

Yugoslavia
Palestine
Iraq
Egypt, Syria (during the wars)
Lebanon
soon to be Iran
Cuba
Venezuela
Vietnam

[The Avon Lady]

Surprise!

[August]

ok screw this thread nothing but a bunch of pro capitalists zionist americans and israelies DOESNT ANYONE NOTICE ALL THE BAD STUFF AMERICA AND ISRAEL DO TO OTHER COUNTRIES HERES A LIST

Yugoslavia
Palestine
Iraq
Egypt, Syria (during the wars)
Lebanon
soon to be Iran
Cuba
Venezuela
Vietnam

Can't make a Kosher Yankee omlet without breaking a few bad eggs... :smug:

So which one of those countries are you from?

[The Avon Lady]

So which one of those countries are you from?
To quote his earlier rant:

obviously uve been brainwashed i have physical proof from family from random people from my country that i have asked in the 60's 70's and 80's yugoslavia was strong they had a stable economy and had a good government so dont go calling around people that believe in socialism moochers because socialists work for each other the only reason why people think socialism is bad because it was said by the americans that it was communism communism is the dictatorship form of socialism yugoslavia was democratic socialism why Josef Tito was a croatian leader he was the glue that held yugoslavia together he was so good he was elected over and over until he passed away may he rest in peace. serbs were never fond of croatian leaders but tito they admired him and respected him and would die for him if they ever had to, after he died in the late 80's everything started going downhill from there.

[Chaotic42]

ok screw this thread nothing but a bunch of pro capitalists zionist americans and israelies DOESNT ANYONE NOTICE ALL THE BAD STUFF AMERICA AND ISRAEL DO TO OTHER COUNTRIES HERES A LIST

Yugoslavia
Palestine
Iraq
Egypt, Syria (during the wars)
Lebanon
soon to be Iran
Cuba
Venezuela
Vietnam

So you question Avon Lady's post, she tells you to look up the quotations yourself, and you throw a hissy-fit and try to paint everyone in a negative light.

What exact issues do you have with the material that AL posted?

[joea]

the paramilitary were the ones responsible for the genocides in kosovo and bosnia they are the shame in our nation they were a bunch of frustrated units who thought they were doing something good but in fact were making things worse. the government was blamed for this even though they were trying to stop it. thats why i believe that CLinton or any clinton member is a idiot a BIG idiot, clinton didnt get his facts right and for that i hope he rots in hell if anyone here can even think of lecturing me on my familys history and my countries problems and history then u might as well cut ur internet cable.

I actually agree with some of what you say, anyway Yugoslavia was very different form other socialist countries (having some private economy for example) and I also was against the NATO intervention. But did you read my post? North Korea has nothing in common with the old Yugoslavia, nor with Venuzuela, nor with Cuba. Chavez has to be judged by rhe fact he has a lot of support from the majority of the population who again voted for his reforms. I do question some of his methods but again from his point of view he won't be able to changes what he wants without constant blocking by lobby groups.

[Schatten]

ok screw this thread nothing but a bunch of pro capitalists zionist americans and israelies DOESNT ANYONE NOTICE ALL THE BAD STUFF AMERICA AND ISRAEL DO TO OTHER COUNTRIES HERES A LIST

Yugoslavia
Palestine
Iraq
Egypt, Syria (during the wars)
Lebanon
soon to be Iran
Cuba
Venezuela
Vietnam
Countries that Communism/Socialists did Really Bad Things in when they took power in:

Russia
Half of Germany
Albania
Bulgaria
Romania
Czechoslovakia
Yugoslavia
Hungary
North Korea
Vietnam
Cambodia
China
Laos
Nicaragua
El Salvador
Cuba

And last but not least...

Poland: The country that suffered the most (non-self-inflicted at least) throughout the 20th century in Europe. What Poland went through makes what Yugoslavia did look like a tea party, with cake.

Don't forget the communist takeover attempts in places like Angola, Greece, Spain, etc.

Say what you want about Democracies, and they do have flaws, but you won't see us rounding up millions of our own people and killing them or working them to death in forced labor camps. Pol Pot alone killed more of his own people than the United States' military killed in all of WWII. And while he has an "impressive" scorecard people like Stalin and Mao make him look minor league. The US couldn't touch Stalin's body count for all of our wars combined, and unlike him we were killing people that we were at war with, not our own people.

Now back to your list of places the US and Israelis did Bad Things To:

Yugoslavia: We, along with NATO, stopped factions from doing genocidal war on their neighbors when the country broke up. Yeah that's evil of us to have done.

Palestine: There isn't a Palestine anymore, there could still be one without a lot of the troubles for the past 59 years but the Palestinians wouldn't take the partition deal.

Iraq: Because it's evil to depose a guy that fills mass graves with his own people, was constantly invading his neighbors from the time he took power, and sent money to terrorist groups so they could kill more Westerners and Israelis. Yep shame on us.

Egypt, Syria (during the wars): Egypt and Syria attacked Israel, but even with their overwhelming numbers they still lost the Sinai, Golan and Gaza to the Israelis. Shame on the IDF for being more tactically competent than their enemies.

Lebanon: If there was a group firing rockets from inside a neighboring country at you, you'd want to stop them too.

soon to be Iran: If there's a war with Iran it'd be because Iran is picking the fight not us. And anyone who believes Iran needs nuclear power for peaceful means just needs to take a look at an oil and natural gas reserves map...

Cuba: The US did what exactly to Cuba? We weren't the ones going door to door in the middle of the night and pulling people out to be executed. That would have been the Communists. If you mean the Bay of Pigs then that was one of the most ill advised military interventions of the 20th Century, we either shouldn't have helped the Cubans try to take their country back or have supported them fully with the military, we tried to do the middle road and those generally don't work.

Venezuela: What have we done to Venezuela? You can't blame the US for Venezuela's internal problems or the fact that a nutjob now looks to be their new leader for life. May it be a short one.

Vietnam: In Vietnam the US was acting to protect the sovereignty of the Republic of Vietnam, an ally. In case you didn't notice we never invaded North Vietnam, maybe we should have, but that was a purely defensive war to confront attacks against the RVN's government by Communists through both VC terrorism and then later through direct attacks by the North Vietnamese Army. Yes we bombed the North, people tend to do that to enemy countries.

As far as Che goes, he was a coward, a horrible military commander, and a sadistic excecutioner; in short your typical terrorist, but he had a good PR machine. Something that went into even higher gear after his death, the fact that he's popular with certain Hollywood types should surprise no one since most of those people have about as much grip on reality as a dyslexic ground sloth...although that's sort of putting down the ground sloths of the world.

I also find it ironic that the bulk of people who lived in socialist countries, and have nothing but nice things to say about them...don't live in them anymore. They live elsewhere in the West where they can have the full advantages of our decadent, evil, capitalistic and democratic institutions.

[U-533]

:smug:
Chavez should not rule by decree.
He should do as he threaten and shut down all his gas stations here in the USA and bring us to our knees.

I have already noticed that most of them have taken down the CITCO signs and are switching to different brands.

Will I need knee pads when he starts?
:smug:


This add not paid for buy the "Keep Chavez Campaign" nor any of the affiliates and in noway reflects anyone real or fictional but blood sucking Vampires do come to mind when no refections come to mind.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

Yugoslavia: We, along with NATO, stopped factions from doing genocidal war on their neighbors when the country broke up. Yeah that's evil of us to have done.
.

jesus christ omg ffs it was not the government it was rebel paramilitary units the government never did any of the crimes esp serbia, when croatia wanted to seperate the croatian government sent their LOYAL miltitary and started deported "ethnic cleansing" of the serbs if the serbs didnt leave they shot them, croatia are the real faction because their regime actually told the government to kill the serbs in croatia, then they spilled into bosnia and te war sadly was fought in bosnia between croats and serbs, some serb military generals broke off and created their own paramilitary like "black scorpions" who in srebrernica massacred thousands of muslim serbs, the government then ordered their loyal miitary to go into kosovo and protect the serb minority there. they were never ordered to kill albanians, the albanians were scared i mean who wouldnt finding out that a neigboring country is at war with croatia then finding out they r sending a force to protect the serbs in kosovo. hmm:hmm:
wouldnt u be scared and run for ur life? i mean the serbs were angry and when a human is angry tey can go out of control , the serb military never went out of control. they came and never killed any albanian civilians. THEN albanians got pissed off and then they took up arms and then they started attacking the serbs and called themselves the KLA (kosovo Liberation Army) the KLA is basically like the iraq insurgents, and the serbs the U.S very similar problem, then the serbs were told not to attack ANY albanian gun or no gun, obviously while serb soldiers died for no reason a few high commanders said screw this and they went rogue, thus attacking albanian KLA and albanian civilians. right now Even though UN is in kosovo, there are suicide bombings and attacks made by the rebels every day sadly it aint on the news because irq and iran is more important. sadly we in norht america cant do anything:cry::cry::cry: but watch:damn::damn:

[elite_hunter_sh3]

and YES there was a genocide and yes i am a serb who is saying that but the government we voted for never did any of these things these were rogue paramilitary pissed off drunk serbs who wanted revenge thinking they were doing something good but in the end it screwed them over and the entire nation of yugoslavia.

[Yahoshua]

You believe wrong. Chavez is facing from 30% to 40% of opposition. Americans would reach that level in half a year of similar policies. Granted, I didn't see much rejection to Pelosi's proposal to create a public national radio station together with that law that breaks the spine of the little ones.


Maybe it was the lack of coffee today but I have missed your point entirely.

[GakunGak]

The most obvious fact was, when Slobodan Milosevic was on trial, he tried to prove a large number of events that Albanian terrorists were executing Serbian people. He was interupted every 5 minutes, especially when he mentioned the NATO agression, and yeah, FYI, they used casette bombs with uranium, 100+ civilians injured, 200+ babies died at childbirth due to stress, lots of childen had trauma 'cos of NATO aircrafts flying soo low.... And the bombing was to "save us"... Thanks, but no thanks.... Ever wondered why the west is so scared from Serbian Radicals so they must unite everybody else so that they cannot rule? So-called-democracy... Right, I'm the terrorist 'cos CNN/BBC/FOX says so... Jesus was innocent and they all stood against him... Same with us.... Not to be rude, but check both sides of story and YOU be the judge of what's true, and what's not.... Ever heard of brainwashing?:know: