Despite all the great Mods......

[longdog499]

......for this game we must all feel there are still areas waiting for some genius out there to put right and make the game the complete World War II submarine sim.For me....the complete lack of any wreckage or trace of the huge ship you sank 30 seconds ago,(something hopefully DivingDuck is addressing),the HUGE anticlimax when after hours of trying to stay alive under repeated attacks by surface vessels,a screen pops up telling you that you are dead.I don't want to see people drowning in the control room but something like a switch of scenes to the surface and the ships that just sank you would be more dramatic and feel like a proper ending to a carrier and lastly that bloody 'renown' system which, for me anyway,makes the whole thing less of a simulation and much more of a 'game'.

[Corsair]

I agree on the black screen and getting rid of the "renown" system is one of the main reasons why I keep on playing NYGM mod. (so that makes at least 2 of us who don't like it :D)
But besides that it is nevertheless the best experience available up to now.

[Boris]

Corsair is right in saying we have the best experience availabe so far. We should be happy with that.

But things can alwys be improved and there is alot to be desired, not just in subsims, but in all games for that matter. Everything can be more realistic, have more features etc. Just think how amazing games will be 10, 20 years into the future.

The complete WW2 subsim..., mark my words, SH3 will never be it. We are coming to a cusp, where the envelope of all that is possible with SH3 is being stretched. Some amazing things are still being done, but these are not things that will adress those massive holes that have always been there.

SH4 will no doubt make a few steps in the right direction, and hopefully SH5 will bring us even more improvements in the form of another U-Boot sim.

Just some of the things I have dreamt of seeing in a U-Boot sim... maybe SH10?:

Actual crews on ships going about their business (military and merchants), crews have to get to the guns to actually fire them etc.
Crews able to man the liferafts
crew treading water
other ships recueing crews
Allied and maybe even neutral crews waving hello at your boat as you go past
Pilots bailing out of planes
locks at either end of canals, like in kiel etc.
dynamic traffic in kanals, pedetrian traffic such as bicycle riders and fisherman on the shore.
more marine creatures
better effects, lingering smoke, lingering wakes... i want the smoke to billow!
Entire sub interior, maybe even interactive characters employing RPG elements
Your crew actually out on deck moving torpedoes etc.
Being able to look at the foredeck from the bridge
Being able to signal ships with the light (give warning, recruit subs you may have met to a wolfpack, say hello etc.)
Being able to recieve such signals
Aircraft actually moving on the decks of carriers, taking off, taxiing etc.
Realistic dynamic damage model, taking out antennas takes out comms, taking out the bridge takes out control of the ship...
Actual holes blown into ships (looks like sh4 already has this), even from the Deck gun
Propper camouflage schemes for the propper vessels of the propper countries, and seeing them change appropriately throughout the course of the war.
Same same for merchants
Names on the merchants
Numbers on the warships
city names on the stern of merchants
Real liveries of merchant lines appropriate to the countries
Dynamic mission changes, orders from BdU
Radio messages relevant to what is actually happening around you
WOLFPACKS! Fully functional AI subs, both friendly and enemy.
I want to be able to eat the food hanging from the ceiling (not entirely necessary)
Incredibly detailed harbour life, ships actually docking in port, going about their business.
Less generic looking towns, more coastal scenery, people bathing at beaches.
I want to be able to see the D-Day landing actuall happen, for example!!!
Interactive base, and maybe nightclub element, also with real characters and 3d environments (even something not too over the top like in pirates).
Supplies actually being transferred and being able to see this happen during resupplies.
Exotic locations should have an exotic feel! Crew wears tropical uniforms, you get resupplied with bananas insted of wurst, and little asians running around in penang (as an example).
More locally unique vessels like fishing boats, junks, depending on where you are.





Phew, feel free to continue the list... :)

[stabiz]

Yeah, no disrespect to the American lads in the Gatos and such, but there is something mythical about the Atlantic war. I REALLY hope we get more uboats in SHV.

[Torplexed]

Sounds like what you guys are describing is more an alternate reality world than a combat sim. I agree it would be a marvelous thing, but any company putting it out on the market is always gonna be fighting the army of bean counters and suits who want this product to ship by this date to look good on this annual report....etc, etc, etc. I think the best we can hope for is that a developer would put a quality product out that was open-ended enough in it's design that enthusiasts and hobbyists could add what they feel is missing from the sim at their leisure...without regard for profits, marketing or deadlines. :cool:

[Boris]

One can dream...

half of what I have written may not even me technologically possible yet... but it will be. And when that day comes, I want everything on that list and more! :arrgh!:

[stabiz]

Corsair is right in saying we have the best experience availabe so far. We should be happy with that.

But things can alwys be improved and there is alot to be desired, not just in subsims, but in all games for that matter. Everything can be more realistic, have more features etc. Just think how amazing games will be 10, 20 years into the future.

The complete WW2 subsim..., mark my words, SH3 will never be it. We are coming to a cusp, where the envelope of all that is possible with SH3 is being stretched. Some amazing things are still being done, but these are not things that will adress those massive holes that have always been there.

SH4 will no doubt make a few steps in the right direction, and hopefully SH5 will bring us even more improvements in the form of another U-Boot sim.

Just some of the things I have dreamt of seeing in a U-Boot sim... maybe SH10?:

Actual crews on ships going about their business (military and merchants), crews have to get to the guns to actually fire them etc.
Crews able to man the liferafts
crew treading water
other ships recueing crews
Allied and maybe even neutral crews waving hello at your boat as you go past
Pilots bailing out of planes
locks at either end of canals, like in kiel etc.
dynamic traffic in kanals, pedetrian traffic such as bicycle riders and fisherman on the shore.
more marine creatures
better effects, lingering smoke, lingering wakes... i want the smoke to billow!
Entire sub interior, maybe even interactive characters employing RPG elements
Your crew actually out on deck moving torpedoes etc.
Being able to look at the foredeck from the bridge
Being able to signal ships with the light (give warning, recruit subs you may have met to a wolfpack, say hello etc.)
Being able to recieve such signals
Aircraft actually moving on the decks of carriers, taking off, taxiing etc.
Realistic dynamic damage model, taking out antennas takes out comms, taking out the bridge takes out control of the ship...
Actual holes blown into ships (looks like sh4 already has this), even from the Deck gun
Propper camouflage schemes for the propper vessels of the propper countries, and seeing them change appropriately throughout the course of the war.
Same same for merchants
Names on the merchants
Numbers on the warships
city names on the stern of merchants
Real liveries of merchant lines appropriate to the countries
Dynamic mission changes, orders from BdU
Radio messages relevant to what is actually happening around you
WOLFPACKS! Fully functional AI subs, both friendly and enemy.
I want to be able to eat the food hanging from the ceiling (not entirely necessary)
Incredibly detailed harbour life, ships actually docking in port, going about their business.
Less generic looking towns, more coastal scenery, people bathing at beaches.
I want to be able to see the D-Day landing actuall happen, for example!!!
Interactive base, and maybe nightclub element, also with real characters and 3d environments (even something not too over the top like in pirates).
Supplies actually being transferred and being able to see this happen during resupplies.
Exotic locations should have an exotic feel! Crew wears tropical uniforms, you get resupplied with bananas insted of wurst, and little asians running around in penang (as an example).
More locally unique vessels like fishing boats, junks, depending on where you are.





Phew, feel free to continue the list... :)

First I didnt understand anything, then I noticed you had edited your post.:D

Anyway, what you wrote there made me gaze blindly at the screen for several seconds. I want that game now, you hear? Ah ... lets hope that there is no World War 3 before this game is out.

[Boris]

Ah ... lets hope that there is no World War 3 before this game is out.

Lol, yeah, that would change a few things, bring down a few economies, halt the production of entertainment items. We're due for a depression soon... last one was in the 30s... lets hope its not too soon :rotfl:

[johnno74]

Yeah, no disrespect to the American lads in the Gatos and such, but there is something mythical about the Atlantic war. I REALLY hope we get more uboats in SHV.

I'm with you, I find the uboat war much more interesting than the pacific war.

I'd be pretty sure that as soon as SH4 comes out people will start work on a u-boat/battle of the atlantic mod/total conversion :lol:

Hopefully the developers of SH4 will leave things just as open as SH3 - hopefully even more so...

[iambecomelife]

Corsair is right in saying we have the best experience availabe so far. We should be happy with that.

But things can alwys be improved and there is alot to be desired, not just in subsims, but in all games for that matter. Everything can be more realistic, have more features etc. Just think how amazing games will be 10, 20 years into the future.

The complete WW2 subsim..., mark my words, SH3 will never be it. We are coming to a cusp, where the envelope of all that is possible with SH3 is being stretched. Some amazing things are still being done, but these are not things that will adress those massive holes that have always been there.

SH4 will no doubt make a few steps in the right direction, and hopefully SH5 will bring us even more improvements in the form of another U-Boot sim.

Just some of the things I have dreamt of seeing in a U-Boot sim... maybe SH10?:

Actual crews on ships going about their business (military and merchants), crews have to get to the guns to actually fire them etc.
Crews able to man the liferafts
crew treading water
other ships recueing crews
Allied and maybe even neutral crews waving hello at your boat as you go past
Pilots bailing out of planes
locks at either end of canals, like in kiel etc.
dynamic traffic in kanals, pedetrian traffic such as bicycle riders and fisherman on the shore.
more marine creatures
better effects, lingering smoke, lingering wakes... i want the smoke to billow!
Entire sub interior, maybe even interactive characters employing RPG elements
Your crew actually out on deck moving torpedoes etc.
Being able to look at the foredeck from the bridge
Being able to signal ships with the light (give warning, recruit subs you may have met to a wolfpack, say hello etc.)
Being able to recieve such signals
Aircraft actually moving on the decks of carriers, taking off, taxiing etc.
Realistic dynamic damage model, taking out antennas takes out comms, taking out the bridge takes out control of the ship...
Actual holes blown into ships (looks like sh4 already has this), even from the Deck gun
Propper camouflage schemes for the propper vessels of the propper countries, and seeing them change appropriately throughout the course of the war.
Same same for merchants
Names on the merchants
Numbers on the warships
city names on the stern of merchants
Real liveries of merchant lines appropriate to the countries
Dynamic mission changes, orders from BdU
Radio messages relevant to what is actually happening around you
WOLFPACKS! Fully functional AI subs, both friendly and enemy.
I want to be able to eat the food hanging from the ceiling (not entirely necessary)
Incredibly detailed harbour life, ships actually docking in port, going about their business.
Less generic looking towns, more coastal scenery, people bathing at beaches.
I want to be able to see the D-Day landing actuall happen, for example!!!
Interactive base, and maybe nightclub element, also with real characters and 3d environments (even something not too over the top like in pirates).
Supplies actually being transferred and being able to see this happen during resupplies.
Exotic locations should have an exotic feel! Crew wears tropical uniforms, you get resupplied with bananas insted of wurst, and little asians running around in penang (as an example).
More locally unique vessels like fishing boats, junks, depending on where you are.





Phew, feel free to continue the list... :)

FYI I'm currently working on a few of those issues myself - namely, the problems with ship liveries. There are some great sources out there about WWII - era shipping lines, and SH3 vessels are reasonably moddable.

As was mentioned before, DivingDuck is working on debris, and before long he may even have rafts and survivors ready.

Re: the things that most likely can't be resolved by modders, I'd say the most important things you mentioned are Wolfpacks, signalling, and interactive/rpg elements. This should not be too much of a problem for future games - "Aces of the Deep and B-17 II had wolfpacks and military rpg elements, respectively, and they are by no means cutting edge. Overall SH3 was a nice step up from its predecessor - now, I agree that it's time to focus more on the little things (and big things) that help improve the overall game atmosphere. I hope future game developers will use their budgets to improve immersion, rather than to wow us with graphics that are backed up by mediocre gameplay.

[peterloo]

To make SH3 or SH4 perfect, I think, they should improve

1) The current renown system (RENOWN, i.e. FAME won't use up when purchasing stuffs)

2) The number of boats avaliable (maybe Britian, French, Japanese, American, and even Soviet boats, with different careers and different models)

3) The feeling of UNCERTAIN. You need to depend on your messsage received. If someone follows History and find Bismarck and rescued her after sinking the 2 battleships attacking her, that would be MEANINGLESS as your career is just like a history exam --- testing how much you know about the history of WWII

[Hartmann]

Some little things that could boost a lot the experience and inmersion in the game

-All compartments modelled and full crew, roam free from bow to stern and tower.
(call of duty did that some time ago )

-Fully automatic crew managament,with options.

-Dynamic radio mensages and real wolfpacks

-Abandon ,scape of the boat in surface and surrender option

[Blacklight]

How possible IS it to get rid of that "You are dead" screen ? That's the only thing that really bothers me about this game.

[fabel]

Yeah, no disrespect to the American lads in the Gatos and such, but there is something mythical about the Atlantic war. I REALLY hope we get more uboats in SHV.
I agree

[Chaotic42]

The big thing that I want is a dynamic campaign. Did I just sink 70,000 tons of food headed for England? That should have an effect. Did I just sink a ship carrying 50 tanks? They should have 50 less when the computer simulates that land battle 2 months from now.

That's one of the things that I *love* about Falcon 4. If you hurt the enemy, you have to hurt them where it counts.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Some little things that could boost a lot the experience and inmersion in the game

-All compartments modelled and full crew, roam free from bow to stern and tower.
(call of duty did that some time ago )

-Fully automatic crew managament,with options.

-Dynamic radio mensages and real wolfpacks

-Abandon ,scape of the boat in surface and surrender option
And a kind "Excuse me, Sir" from passing by crewmen every two minutes while you stand by the sonar man and listen to his whispered reports on enemies trying to sink you all. :D

[AndyW]

A real multiplayer world, something like BF 1942 or Flashpoint - just with u-boats and with correct historic context.

This means online servers running from 1939 until 1945 and any time you enter a server you'll have to wait for a historically accurate slot to get a boat. You drive to your assigned area and meet your wolfpack of other online Kaleuns on the server map to hunt and get hunted.

In a perfect world, a comprehensive "Atlantic War" sim with a Flightsim (akin IL-2 or B-17), a naval simulation and a u-boat simulation in a combined game. But That's fantasy...

Cheers,
AndyW

[oRGy]

Why not contribute to an open-source ww2 subsim instead of just complaining about SH3?

www.dangerdeep.net

(This applies to programmers, modellers, artists and researchers)

[Boris]

Why not contribute to an open-source ww2 subsim instead of just complaining about SH3?

www.dangerdeep.net (http://www.dangerdeep.net)

(This applies to programmers, modellers, artists and researchers)

Full respect to those guys, but it takes a well funded commercial project to really raise the bar I think.

[oRGy]

No doubt thats what they said about Firefox and OpenOffice as well.

Simulations are ideal for open source development because there are no real artistic issues involved.

[Tim Stan Armstrong]

Corsair is right in saying we have the best experience availabe so far. We should be happy with that.

But things can alwys be improved and there is alot to be desired, not just in subsims, but in all games for that matter. Everything can be more realistic, have more features etc. Just think how amazing games will be 10, 20 years into the future.

The complete WW2 subsim..., mark my words, SH3 will never be it. We are coming to a cusp, where the envelope of all that is possible with SH3 is being stretched. Some amazing things are still being done, but these are not things that will adress those massive holes that have always been there.

SH4 will no doubt make a few steps in the right direction, and hopefully SH5 will bring us even more improvements in the form of another U-Boot sim.

Just some of the things I have dreamt of seeing in a U-Boot sim... maybe SH10?:

Actual crews on ships going about their business (military and merchants), crews have to get to the guns to actually fire them etc.
Crews able to man the liferafts
crew treading water
other ships recueing crews
Allied and maybe even neutral crews waving hello at your boat as you go past
Pilots bailing out of planes
locks at either end of canals, like in kiel etc.
dynamic traffic in kanals, pedetrian traffic such as bicycle riders and fisherman on the shore.
more marine creatures
better effects, lingering smoke, lingering wakes... i want the smoke to billow!
Entire sub interior, maybe even interactive characters employing RPG elements
Your crew actually out on deck moving torpedoes etc.
Being able to look at the foredeck from the bridge
Being able to signal ships with the light (give warning, recruit subs you may have met to a wolfpack, say hello etc.)
Being able to recieve such signals
Aircraft actually moving on the decks of carriers, taking off, taxiing etc.
Realistic dynamic damage model, taking out antennas takes out comms, taking out the bridge takes out control of the ship...
Actual holes blown into ships (looks like sh4 already has this), even from the Deck gun
Propper camouflage schemes for the propper vessels of the propper countries, and seeing them change appropriately throughout the course of the war.
Same same for merchants
Names on the merchants
Numbers on the warships
city names on the stern of merchants
Real liveries of merchant lines appropriate to the countries
Dynamic mission changes, orders from BdU
Radio messages relevant to what is actually happening around you
WOLFPACKS! Fully functional AI subs, both friendly and enemy.
I want to be able to eat the food hanging from the ceiling (not entirely necessary)
Incredibly detailed harbour life, ships actually docking in port, going about their business.
Less generic looking towns, more coastal scenery, people bathing at beaches.
I want to be able to see the D-Day landing actuall happen, for example!!!
Interactive base, and maybe nightclub element, also with real characters and 3d environments (even something not too over the top like in pirates).
Supplies actually being transferred and being able to see this happen during resupplies.
Exotic locations should have an exotic feel! Crew wears tropical uniforms, you get resupplied with bananas insted of wurst, and little asians running around in penang (as an example).
More locally unique vessels like fishing boats, junks, depending on where you are.





Phew, feel free to continue the list... :)

**** mate you dont want much do you?!

[Boris]

Yeah... as I said maybe SH10 :D

I just tried out that open source subsim, and despite is being a little dodgy and rough around the edges... the ocean graphics are bloody amazing!

It has to be seen to be believed!, the wake of the sub, the way the ocean ripples, the recflection of the sun on the water... bloody amazing, it looks real, far better that in SH3, and not even what I've seen of SHIV looks as good. The only thing missing is the actual wake rippling away from the vessels, but the foam looks real :o

[Mooncatt]

sounds cool but i choose life:D
no seriously i would have gameplay over gfx

[Boris]

Graphics is a gameplay multiplyer to me. Good gameplay needs to be had, but the better the graphics, the better the gameplay.

[The Munster]

Hi, here is my tuppenth worth ..

Be in Harbour and hear an air raid siren going off before enemy aircraft arrive.

[Torplexed]

One simple addition that doesn't demand much in the way of graphics I'd like to see included is mechanical breakdowns. Reading Clay Blair's book Hitler's U-Boat War you really get a sense of how many boats had to abort patrols for reasons that had nothing to do with battle damage. Broken compressors, leaking bilge pumps, cranky diesels, a batch of defective torpedoes, even sick or injured crewmen. SH2 had this feature in a limited way. It'd be frustrating as hell sometimes....but true to life. :cool:

[johnm]

I'm not greedy, I'll settle for a watch officer who gets on deck when we surface!

and, maybe, be able to give orders before surfacing and have them get up and start firing without the hassle of ordering deck officer up, then gun crews, then open fire.

surrendering would be good too - you had it in SH2.

How about a destroyer command II?

[Mowinz]

Allied and maybe even neutral crews waving hello at your boat as you go past

:)

That's too funny. Thanks!