Thermal Layer

[dean_acheson]

I'm sure this has come up, but I didn't find anything with search.

Are these modeled in the game?

[Albrecht Von Hesse]

I'm sure this has come up, but I didn't find anything with search.

Are these modeled in the game?

IIRC, no, that isn't modellled into the game. Don't quote me on that; however, to the best of my recollection of past discussions, thermal layering isn't part of the game code.

[JScones]

Correct. However, thanks to Hemisent, SH3Cmdr users experience pseudo-thermal layers by default. :up:

[GT182]

There was a mod to simulate thermal layers. I believe it was out last summer of fall, tho I can't remember who did the work on it. I have it installed in my Vanilla SHIII but have to search for the zipfile to see who made it. And, it works fairly well.

[HEMISENT]

Just get SH3 Commander2.7-It's included.
Works great for RUB and GWX

[gdogghenrikson]

Correct. However, thanks to Hemisent, SH3Cmdr users experience pseudo-thermal layers by default. :up:

yup that and allot more sweet things!

[dean_acheson]

Thanks, I was thinking when I went deep, the DDs would lose me, and I wondered if that was it.

Thanks guys!

[Koinonos]

Or else it's the DD/DE ASW detection cones. I am in the Med in 1942 in a VIIC and if I dive down to 140-160 meters and go silent running @2knots I can evade even 2-3 destroyers at a time fairly often.

I thought Thermal Layers were modeled somewhat since the GWX manual exhorts captains to dive deep to minimize sonar signature?

[Paajtor]

From the SH3Commander readme (http://www.users.on.net/%7Ejscones/software/SH3Cmdr%20Help.html):
Simulated thermal layers - by Hemisent.
Randomly adjusts active/passive listening device values to simulate the impact of thermal layers. Editable through 'Randomised events.cfg' located in your SH3 Commander\Cfg folder.
I would love to learn, how to find the layers....to know at which depth they occur in a particular area, in a particular season.
But since SH3Commander seems to randomize them, there isn't much to learn, I guess?

Why can't we read water-temp, in SH3? A pretty straight-forward sensor, even in WW2-days.
Would be a nice job for the nav.officer....surfaced, he reports weather, and submerged, he reports water-temp and currents.

[Kumando]

Just get SH3 Commander2.7-It's included.
Works great for RUB and GWX

How is that? I dont seem to see any option enbaling "thermal layer".

[GT182]

Kumando, it's already in GWX. You don't need to do anything to enable it.

My reference to it was for stock SHIII and as a mod to add in.

[HEMISENT]

I would love to learn, how to find the layers....to know at which depth they occur in a particular area, in a particular season.
But since SH3Commander seems to randomize them, there isn't much to learn, I guess?

There are five depths which are modelled:
100m + or -
140m + or -
190m + or -
220m + or -
260m + or -

There is no way to determine if you have one, other than by being very in tune to the enemy above's behaviour(other than using the stealth meter). The layers are not a hard deck but rather an area where the enemy listening abilities begin to degrade.

example: Commander issues you a 100m TL file. What this means is that, depending on the year and sensor being used above you the detection capabilities may begin to degrade around 85m for some, around 90 or 100m for others and perhaps at 105 or 110m for late war higher tech units.
If you were using the stealth meter you would notice the red bar gradually dirty up and slowly go to brown-olive-green as you slowly descended thry the layer. Having said this you still MUST be at silent running. If you try to increase speed you chance making noise and becoming detected. However, given this scenario should you dive down to 150 or 180 you can "sometimes" disable SR and reload, repair etc etc. A lot depends on sea state and AI level.

Hope this helps.

note* VALID ONLY FOR VANILLA, RUB and GWX PLAYERS USING SH3 COMMANDER

[Hakahura]

In real life 1939 to 1945, no German submarine was fitted with a device to monitor external water temperture.

Why?

At that point in history very little/nothing was understood about thermal layers and the effects these had on ASW warfare.

By diving deep U boat Kaleuns exploited thermal layers, but had no idea they were doing it. All they understood at that time, was that "safe", meant going deeper. Thereby accidently encountering thermal layers of which they had no knowledge of.

Hope this helps.

[Paajtor]

Yes, thank you guys. :up:

In general (if depth under keel permits), I go to 240m for evasions.
So there's a good chance I'm underneath a thermal layer. :D

[JScones]

Kumando, it's already in GWX. You don't need to do anything to enable it.
I assume you mean "it's already in SH3Cmdr"? ;)

[Zero Niner]

Kumando, it's already in GWX. You don't need to do anything to enable it. I assume you mean "it's already in SH3Cmdr"? ;)
I have both GWX & SH3C 2.7 installed.
I see no option in SH3C to enable this.
Can I assume it's part of GWX, and enabled by default?
:confused:

[JScones]

Kumando, it's already in GWX. You don't need to do anything to enable it. I assume you mean "it's already in SH3Cmdr"? ;)
I have both GWX & SH3C 2.7 installed.
I see no option in SH3C to enable this.
Can I assume it's part of GWX, and enabled by default?
:confused:
Sigh, RTFM...it's a default feature of SH3Cmdr (as I also mentioned in my first post above).

[GOZO]

SH3Cmdr (as I also mentioned in my first post above).

Yep, and if I am not completely misinformed the simulation of a layer was in 2.6.1 as well. Correct me if I am wrong.:)

Again, thanks for all work matey:up:

Per

[JScones]

Yep, and if I am not completely misinformed the simulation of a layer was in 2.6.1 as well. Correct me if I am wrong.:)
:yep: Correct. :up:

And R2.6 and R2.5 as well...

[TarJak]

In real life 1939 to 1945, no German submarine was fitted with a device to monitor external water temperture.

Why?

At that point in history very little/nothing was understood about thermal layers and the effects these had on ASW warfare.

By diving deep U boat Kaleuns exploited thermal layers, but had no idea they were doing it. All they understood at that time, was that "safe", meant going deeper. Thereby accidently encountering thermal layers of which they had no knowledge of.

Hope this helps.

That's not strictly true as the US had a very good understanding of the subject as early as 1938.

The main issue in the Atlantic was that the thermals in most places in that ocean were actually at such a great depths (+300m) that no submarine was capable of taking advantage of them. The pacific on the other hand has thermal layers as shallow as 50m meaning subs in these waters could take greater advantage of them.

Sorry I don't understand enough thermodynamics to explain why there were such vast differences between the two but I'm guessing it was more to do with the relative sizes, depths and current flows at play.

I don;t have a major problem with them being modelled at shallower depths with GWX and SH3C2.7 because from what I've read there where places and times when there were shallower thermals and therefore they "could" have been encountered. My only suggestion is that they be very rare rather than regular occurrences as they are not regular in the Atlantic in RL. Modern subs can however now dive deep enough to take advantage of them as well as carrying sophisticated measurement sensors to allow them to understand there presence.

[Vikinger]

In real life 1939 to 1945, no German submarine was fitted with a device to monitor external water temperture.

Why?

At that point in history very little/nothing was understood about thermal layers and the effects these had on ASW warfare.

By diving deep U boat Kaleuns exploited thermal layers, but had no idea they were doing it. All they understood at that time, was that "safe", meant going deeper. Thereby accidently encountering thermal layers of which they had no knowledge of.

Hope this helps.

That's not strictly true as the US had a very good understanding of the subject as early as 1938.

The main issue in the Atlantic was that the thermals in most places in that ocean were actually at such a great depths (+300m) that no submarine was capable of taking advantage of them. The pacific on the other hand has thermal layers as shallow as 50m meaning subs in these waters could take greater advantage of them.


In shallow waters the layer can appear at 15-20 meters depth.
I remember once when i was scuba diving.
I was diving outside the swedish westcoast and it was during a hot summer day.
(thermal layer in shallow water is season dependant)
It was about 23 degree celcius in the top layer of water. Normal bath temprature :)
But as we dived deeper and came down to about 15 meters we faced a green sludge. My first impression was that it was the bottom. it was so thick and dense and consisted of green planktoons. The layer was about 1 meters in thikness and when we dived belove it it was a shock. The temprature droped from 23 to 5-6 degree. and when i looked up it was like dense lid.
It was quite an experience to se this.

Next day we went to the east coast and dived there (baltic sea) but on that side of tghe coast there was not any thermal layers. reason for this is that the baltic sea is a mixture of salt and fresh water so thermal layer cant appaer.

So for thermal layer to appear in shallow water its dependant how much plankton its in the water, The density (salt water or fresh water or a mixture) and the time of year(temprature) and also how strong the current are.

[HEMISENT]

I knew that! "SLAP!" ......no i didn't.

[Paajtor]

a mixture of salt and fresh water so thermal layer cant appaer.
No thermal layer...but the fresh and salt water also form layers, right?
The fresh water floats on top of the salt water (or is it the other way around?:hmm:), if they're not disturbed by strong currents.
I think I've read somewhere, that this can form layers in polar areas, where there's allot of fresh water added because of melting ice.

[Vikinger]

a mixture of salt and fresh water so thermal layer cant appaer.
No thermal layer...but the fresh and salt water also form layers, right?
The fresh water floats on top of the salt water (or is it the other way around?:hmm:), if they're not disturbed by strong currents.
I think I've read somewhere, that this can form layers in polar areas, where there's allot of fresh water added because of melting ice.

Yes you are right about that but the fresh water that is smelted is in small quanities compared to all salt water around so it will be a small layer on top of the salt water just at the surface. Its all about the density. Salt water is "heavier" so the fresh water will float above it untill its mixed. Ice consist of fresh water therefor that float on the surface coz the lower density.
Its also a matter how strong the current are in thos areas. How fast the fresh water will mix it self whit salt water.

What i mean about is that thermal layer cant appear in brackish water like it is in the baltic sea.

[Paajtor]

Rgr that.
I learn something new here every day. :)

[Iron Budokan]

I thought the manual that came with the stock game talked about thermal layers and how you should use them but I just took a look and it's not mentioned after all. But I seem to remember the devs saying it was modeled.

Oh, well, I have GWX, too so I'm glad they've included it.

[Hartmann]

In real life 1939 to 1945, no German submarine was fitted with a device to monitor external water temperture.

Why?

At that point in history very little/nothing was understood about thermal layers and the effects these had on ASW warfare.

By diving deep U boat Kaleuns exploited thermal layers, but had no idea they were doing it. All they understood at that time, was that "safe", meant going deeper. Thereby accidently encountering thermal layers of which they had no knowledge of.

Hope this helps.

Us boats know this, because they used bathythermographs that allow know water temperature at determinate depth.:roll:

in sh1 is a normal instrumentation in us boats like gato and balao

[swuboo]

Thermal layers were mentioned in the manual to SHII.

In fact, if you are playing SHII and dive through a thermal layer, your crew will announce, "Passed thermal layer!"

Whether it is merely the crew announcement that has been removed, or the entire simulation of the event that is gone, I cannot say. But I know they said that in SHII, and I know I have never heard it in SHIII.

[Vikinger]

Thermal layers were mentioned in the manual to SHII.

In fact, if you are playing SHII and dive through a thermal layer, your crew will announce, "Passed thermal layer!"

Whether it is merely the crew announcement that has been removed, or the entire simulation of the event that is gone, I cannot say. But I know they said that in SHII, and I know I have never heard it in SHIII.

The devs for sh3 must have been intressted in this also coz they made a video whit Joergen Oesten about it.

Can be found here:

http://www.silent-hunteriii.com/uk/videos.php

And look for Herr oesten Thermal layers.

Quite intressting video where he explain how the uboat captains and crew took advantage of thermal layers.
He says that they knew they where under the layer when suddenly the destroyers/hunters lost track of them.

They where aware of this phenomen but didnt use to its advantage. Mostley coz they didnt know where the layer was.
He say that they could measure the water temprature but they never did that.

[JScones]

I thought the manual that came with the stock game talked about thermal layers and how you should use them but I just took a look and it's not mentioned after all. But I seem to remember the devs saying it was modeled.

Oh, well, I have GWX, too so I'm glad they've included it.
GWX does not model Thermal Layers, SH3Cmdr does. ;)

50 lashings to GT182 for his most unfortunate typo that has propulagated this confusion. :rotfl:

BTW, Thermal Layers are not necessarily modelled every time - it's random with an average chance of about 50% (including reloading during mid-patrol).