UK Friday 5th 21:00 BBC2 - Timewatch: The Hunt for U-864

[Kaleun]

Heads up for the UK

From the Radio Times

"A new series of BBC2's history strand begins with a tense tale of submarine warfare. Timewatch has a thing about submarines, but then again, this story is arguably a bit special - the only time in naval warfare that two submarines have duelled to the death underwater. It was February 1945 off the coast of Norway when HMS Venturer managed, by some brilliant manoeuvres, to hunt down and torpedo the German U-boat U864. Sweaty reconstructions capture the atmosphere of the duel ("Commander, port side! Another torpedo!"), while in the present day a salvage team sends cameras down to the whiskery wreck."

Regards

Kaleun

[Jimbuna]

Very interesting...thanks for the heads up :up:

[Paajtor]

Hey, thank you for the tip!
Gonna record it.

[mr chris]

Oh yes i will be watching:up:

[fabel]

I will be watching too:)

[STEED]

Of course I shall be watching.

[Von Hinten]

It's at times like these where I wished I had a dvd recorder ... So I'll be watching it live too I guess. :roll:

Thanks :up:

[Paajtor]

Don't worry...those will become incredibly cheap in less than 2 years. :D

[Kaleun]

bump!! I don't want people to miss it!

[Jimbuna]

miss what ? :hmm:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[_Seth_]

:nope:
Yeah, guys...just rub it in.....

(I dont have BBC on my cable...)

[Captain Nemo]

bump!! I don't want people to miss it!

I'm recording it and will watch it over the weekend.:up:

Nemo

[martxyz]

As it's "on" in an hour, I'm just "bumping" this thread, to get it to the tp so people see it and don't forget to record it. I've seen trailers. Looks really good.


Cheers,

Martin

[Paajtor]

:nope:
Yeah, guys...just rub it in.....

(I dont have BBC on my cable...)
Maybe the BBC will put it online as well?

[martxyz]

Sorry, but I don't think they are at that stage yet. It would be great if they releases their timewatch series programmes on DVD, but it is such a good series, they wouldn't know wher to stop. They'd also have a lot of other good candidate programmes.

Incidentally, the Timewatch web-page is at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/programmes/timewatch/index.shtml

and if you look in their archive, you'll see they have done quite a few naval programmes.

I hope you find a way to be able to see it. I am recording on VHS (not a DVD recorder), so I can't be much help.

All the best, Martin

[Paajtor]

Yes, same here, Seth...:-?
I have a top-quality recorder - a 6-head hifi stereo Philips - but it's VHS, which I can't copy.
If I had a dvd-recorder, I would be glad to send a copy over to Norway.
But who knows...maybe someone else will step up!

[Jimbuna]

Bump!!
Nearly time people :yep:

[martxyz]

Just watched the film - great! The film production credits read as follows:

"Spiegel TV and Cream Productions for ZDF, BBC, History Canada, Discovery Science, in association with LA7, History UK, and NRK"

I hope this means that the documentary will be able to be seen by a wider audience.

The documentary was especially interesting because of the logic that the British Sub Captain used to achieve a reasonable firing solution in a situation where his information was limited.

The wreck itself is now a serious ecological hazhard, because of its cargo.

Well worth the watch.

Martin

[mr chris]

Yep was a great programe very intersting indeed. The Uboat memorial at the end had me very very shocked 30,000 names take up alot of room. May god rest there souls.

[Jimbuna]

Yep...a very well put together documentary/programme...worthy of the world famous broadcasting institution (BBC) :rock: :up:

[martxyz]

Although he didn't contribute much, the well respected naval historian, Eric Groves, was in the documentary. He featured strongly in a previous Timewatch programme about the Graf Spee, and the Battle of the River Plate. He has an astounding knowledge of this matter and has written a book about it (The Price of Disobedience). He was clearly very impressed by the humanity of Langsdorff. In the same run, there was a programme about the wreck of the Ark Royal, in the Med., and also about the first confederate sub during the American Civil War, and how it came to sink, following it's attack.

What comes through from all these programmes is that seamen have something of a common bond. One of the pilots from the Ark Royal witnessed the sinking Bismark, and the men dying in the water. He felt glad the Bismark was done for, but so very sad for the crew. In tonight's documentary, it was clear that the initial euphoria of killing the u-boat (after a real feeling of apprehension that the u-boat might get them instead) was quickly folowed by the realisation that they knew that they'd just killed fellow submariners, in the most ghastly way.

This isn't the sort of thing you tend to hear much in people recounting their experiences of the ground war.

My dad was a chaplain for The Missions to Seamen (now called The Mission to Seafarers, I think) for 10 years, so I got to go on-board a couple of diesel subs whilst they were still in commission, and talk to the crew. Ghastly machines. Stuffy, cramped and claustrophobic. A very limited supply of water, and hot-bedding sleeping arrangements. During war-time, they must have been horrific places at times. Must take a very special sort of person.

Anyway; if you get the chance to see the programme, it was well worth it.

Cheers,
Martin

[STEED]

Another winner from Time Watch. :rock:

[Von Hinten]

I watched it with a fellow captain of mine and we agreed that we need to see this kind of documentaries more often.

[andy_311]

I just watched it and found it fascinating the only thing am puzzled with correct me if am wrong but when the Brit sub fired it's fish at 17.5 seconds intervals I assumed it stayed at the same depth and the u-boat captain avoided the first 3 toprs so how did he turn into the 4 fish as the program explained he "ordered hard to port emergency dive to 40 m" so if he avoid the first 3 wouldn't the 4th one be just as easy to avoid?

[_Seth_]

Its hard without BBC, mateys..
I dont know if it has any copyright issues, but if someone has a copy i would really like to see this.. If it is legal. :yep:

[Fidd]

I thought it was rather poor myself - in the writing. There seemed to be a lot of confusion and mixing of terms - particularly "hydrophones" (passive) and "sonar" and "asdic" (wtf!) when characterising how the venturer managed to acquire the Uboat while both were underwater (and without alerting the U-boat). It never suggested for what purpose the Japs wanted 60 tons of mercury for - which would have been interesting, nor looked in any detail at the Norwegian proposals for sealing the wreck-site - which are very contentious on several grounds.

All in all, worth taping and watching, but could have been done a lot better. IMHO.

[JU_88]

Yeah I watched this one, it could have been better... but it was still very intresting to get some idea how HMS Venturer accomplished the nearly impossible.

Makes you realise what we are missing out on in SH3 (and in SH4) :nope:

[martxyz]

As regards the 4 torpedoes, my impression was that the captain had made a calculation that the u-boat commander would follow normal evasive procedure, when attacked by torpedoes coming in that direction. It wasn't entirely clear though it was hinted at. The u-boat commander knew he had loud engines, and was zig-zagging to minimize the risk. However, the risks he anticipated were surface vessels. He was also inexperienced, and really had no good idea of what the situation was. He apparently followed a "standard" evasion procedure when the first torpedo missed. This effectively stopped him zig-zagging, in favour of taking evasive manoeuvres. My impression was that the sub captain had guessed that the u-boat would react in this way and accounted for it. His spread and timing of torpedoes, if I understood it right, may have effectively driven the u-boat into his 4th torpedo, because with each torpedo, the u-boat's orientation and depth would have become increasingly predictable.

As to the loose use of terms, I imagine that they sacrificed some consistent terminology in order to tell a smooth story to a wide public. I did find it a bit disorientating when they chopped continually between 1945 and today, but that's quite common in modern documentaries. Timewatch does it much less than some. Another flagship BBC series, Horizon, at one point became so verbose, by attempting to tell a great tale and make it seem "epic", that they took an hour to say what could have been told in 5 minutes. Happily, things have improved.

I may have enjoyed the documentary more than some because I know a lot less about the subject. I'd still highly recommend it to anybody as a great "ripping yarn". :D

[Letum]

The u-boat commander knew he had loud engines, and was zig-zagging to minimize the risk. However, the risks he anticipated were surface vessels.

Submerged zigzagging is too slow to confuse enemy aircraft and pointless against destroyers at such shallow depth.
The only reason he could have had for zigzagging whilst at periscope depth is that he was worried about torpedoes. Perhaps it was known that British submarines operated in that area or perhaps torpedo boats where expected. :hmm:

[martxyz]

Hi Letum,

unfortunately I can only go from the programme, which stated that he was unaware of a threat from another submarine, and the zigg-zag pattern was to confuse surface vessels. You may be right, but I was just recounting the information in the programme. The u-boat was in periodic radio contact and I suspect that the transcripts of these messages were used to confirm that he was not expecting trouble from another sub. I can't tell you any more I'm afraid, as I simply don't know enough about it.

Cheers,

martin

[Gezoes]

I missed it too unfortunately, if anyone can put it up that would be smashing! Or any other online possiblities for U-boat documentaries for that matter.

I think that, given the genuine audience here, the BBC won't mind too much? :know:

[Jimbuna]

So has anyone got any ideas what the Japs wanted to do with the mercury ? :hmm:

[azn_132]

So has anyone got any ideas what the Japs wanted to do with the mercury ? :hmm:

make a bomb out of it?

[Letum]

So has anyone got any ideas what the Japs wanted to do with the mercury ? :hmm:
make a bomb out of it?
I would guess that they where using it as a metallic coolant. Perhaps for stationary jet engine recherche. Jets get hot quickly if they are not flying, so you need a effective way to keep them cool if you want to do tests for a few hours on them.
Mercury a very effective coolant when used at high temperature.
(I'm just speculating that they where useing it for that, but it seams likely)

There are myths about "red mercury" being used in nuclear bombs, but there isn't such a thing and mercury is not used in any explosives I know of.

[azn_132]

So has anyone got any ideas what the Japs wanted to do with the mercury ? :hmm:
make a bomb out of it?

I would guess that they where using it as a metallic coolant. Perhaps for stationary jet engine recherche. Jets get hot quickly if they are not flying, so you need a effective way to keep them cool if you want to do tests for a few hours on them.
Mercury a very effective coolant when used at high temperature.

There are myths about "red mercury" being used in nuclear bombs, but there isn't such a thing and mercury is not used in any explosives I know of.

Jets? well, Japan have been bombed by weapons of mass destuction but if Japan recivied that mercury.....

[Letum]

Jets? well, Japan have been bombed by weapons of mass destruction but if Japan receive that mercury.....
Japan already had examples of working jet engines, but they where a long way from building a production jet. However they did have working rocket planes which was a little action as manned flying bombs.
Even without mercury there are plenty of other ways to cool down primitive jets anyhow.

*edit* Heres a nice article on Japans jets project:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Kikka

[bigboywooly]

I would guess they wanted it for jet engine testing as Letum said



11 March-15 April 1944:
The I-29 arrives safely at Lorient. She anchors next to Kapitänleutnant Max Wintermeyer's U-190. The U-boat's crew cheers and waves welcoming greetings to the I-29's crewmen on parade in their dress uniforms on her deck. Later, the I-29 is berthed in one of Lorient's massive Keroman bunkers.

Lorient is the home of the 2nd U-Flotille "Saltzwedel" commanded by Knight's Cross winner Fregattenkapitän (later Kapitän zur See) Ernst Kals (former CO of U-130) and the 10th U-Flotille commanded by Knight's Cross winner Korvettenkapitän (later Konteradmiral, Bundesmarine) Günter Kuhnke (former CO of U-28). The German submariners entertain the I-29's officers at a dockside bar at Lorient. The bar's low ceiling rafters are covered with the carved signatures of U-boat officers. The I-29's Chief Engineering Officer Lt Taguchi Hiroshi, her Chief Navigation Officer Lt Otani Hideo and several other of the I-29's officers carve their signatures into the rafters.

Later, the Germans host the I-29's entire crew in their luxurious Château de Trévarez that overlooks the small town of Châteauneuf-de-Faou. Cdr Kinashi and the I-29's crew are well fed, engage in competitive sports and party with their German counterparts. The Kriegsmarine arranges a train trip to Paris for the I-29's crew. One of their sightseeing stops is at the Palais de Chaillot that houses the French Maritime Museum and overlooks the Eiffel Tower.

Cdr Kinashi travels to Berlin. Adolf Hitler presents him with the Iron Cross, 2nd Class for sinking the USS WASP.

Meanwhile during her stay, four Japanese Type 96 25-mm AA guns are removed from the I-29 and replaced by a German 37-mm Krupp AA gun and one quad 20-mm Mauser 'Flakvierling'. The I-29 embarks 18 passengers (including four Germans) and takes on an HWK 509A-1 rocket motor used on the Me-163 "Komet" interceptor and a Jumo 004B engine used on the Me-262 jet fighter.


16 April 1944:
The I-29 departs Lorient, escorted by seven M-class minesweepers. She carries drawings of the Isotta-Fraschini torpedo boat engine, a V-1 "buzz bomb" fuselage, TMC acoustic mines, bauxite and mercury-radium amalgam.*****.

Technical Cdr Iwaya Eiichi carries blueprints of the Messerschmitt Me-163 "Komet" rocket interceptor and the Me-262 jet fighter and Captain Matsui is in possession of plans for rocket launch accelerators. The officers also carry plans for a glider bomb and radar equipment. Twenty "Enigma" coding machines are included in the cargo.



http://www.combinedfleet.com/I-29.htm

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=88580&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=ee5be5df2bcfe744d1b0926d02fac75e

[Jimbuna]

Was hoping for a few more 'theorists'...but I'm very close to your reply (metallic coolant) Letum ...cheers for that mate :yep:
@BB....nice one mate...qualative as ever :up:


Cdr Kinashi travels to Berlin. Adolf Hitler presents him with the Iron Cross, 2nd Class for sinking the USS WASP.


Poor bugger...some kaleuns got the 1st class for lesser achievements :rotfl:

[Letum]

Thanks Wooly
Ive just been reading up on Mercury Radium.
It seams that mercury was used as a primitive way of extracting radium from uranium salts. If the mercury was being used for that, then it would have been a nice toy for scientists, but useless for making nuclear bombs.

I'm starting to doubt that japan or Germany had the technology for using mercury as a coolant in the war years. I know it was used in the 1950s - 1980s as a coolant.
They where probably just playing about with radium tho.

[azn_132]

Jets? well, Japan have been bombed by weapons of mass destruction but if Japan receive that mercury.....
Japan already had examples of working jet engines, but they where a long way from building a production jet. However they did have working rocket planes which was a little action as manned flying bombs.
Even without mercury there are plenty of other ways to cool down primitive jets anyhow.

*edit* Heres a nice article on Japans jets project:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Kikka

Okha or JW somethang.

[Ducimus]

Ok this is just madddening. Someone posted the trailer to this episode on Youtube, but not the episode itself. Its like having a taste of excellent cake, and then have someone take it away from you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZp7Ycu8WKk

[Captain Nemo]

Not sure of the copyright issues here (perhaps someone can clarify), but I recorded this programme on my HDD/DVD recorder (yet to watch it though) and can easily transfer it to DVD if anyone is interested.

Nemo

[Malc]

nemo, you have a PM ;)

[Subwolf]

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