Sine, cosine, whiz wheels...what did they really do?

[Iron Budokan]

There are a lot of ways to compute attacks on this game, which is fine. But what did the U-boat captains really do? Didn't they pretty much eyeball everything? I know American sub skippers used Whiz Wheels or something like it, and so did the British sub commanders, but did the Germans? I dunno, that's why I'm asking....

Of course it's difficult to do eyeball estimates on the game without input from your other senses you would have while directing a true attack from a conning tower...but did the uboat captains really take the time to do all this trig and stuff for figuring out an attack? Historically, what was it the really did? I seems from my reading they either called out AOB and such from the conning tower or while peeking through a periscope.

I'm not trying to put down the other ways fellows have come up with here on the forums. I use them, too. I just want to know historically what the uboat capts. did....

Thanks! :)

[AVGWarhawk]

Historyically the German TDC was a basic computer. The captain called out AOB, course and estimated speed. He also called out the depth he wanted for the torpedos. Once put into the TDC it did all the figuring and sent this info via wire the torpedo. Hopefully the torpedo did not go off course, premeture, runout of fuel, or just not leave the tube period. Somehow they managed.

[IceGrog]

I am in no way near to being a WW2 submarine expert, I’m just here enjoying the fun. Now I was just recently reading a book on German subs and in it was a vintage torpedo room picture showing the crewman sitting on and around a torpedo, one of them had a special wench and looked like he was turning something on the torpedo. The picture’s caption said “German adjusting torpedo’s gages”
Now did they have to do this every time the target changed and then shove the fish into the tube,? How did the info from these "Whiz Wheels" get to the torpedos, before they went into the tubes or after, if after, how?

[Iron Budokan]

See, that's kind of what I thought, too. They eyeballed it and called it out and these were input to the TDC. I'm sort of thinking about running a career based just on that...is that a waste of time, though? Because I don't want to treat it like a FPS, but try to play it more the way the old skippers did....

I would then be interested to see if my "estimates" through a career ever got better over time.

Dunno.

[Corsair]

I had trouble several times with the notepad like forgetting to cancel old data. Since then I make my inputs directly in the slide out dials in scope or UZO view. This way I can have a last look before shooting that all data is correct.
I have no problem with AOB or speed of target, I find out the most difficult to estimate is the range, specially if the sea is not perfectly calm. But the real guys had the same problem, they didn't have a magician as Weapon Officer who could make the call in 2 seconds and answer "no problemo, Herr Kaleun, target is running 6 knts with AOB 27° and distance 2184.5 meters...;)

[_Seth_]

I had trouble several times with the notepad like forgetting to cancel old data. Since then I make my inputs directly in the slide out dials in scope or UZO view. This way I can have a last look before shooting that all data is correct.
I have no problem with AOB or speed of target, I find out the most difficult to estimate is the range, specially if the sea is not perfectly calm. But the real guys had the same problem, they didn't have a magician as Weapon Officer who could make the call in 2 seconds and answer "no problemo, Herr Kaleun, target is running 6 knts with AOB 27° and distance 2184.5 meters...;):yep::yep: So true, mate!

[Corsair]

This is probably the main reason why I try to make short shots whenever posible (500 - 800 m) because it is more forgiving. If I'm a little off on the distance I will hit either more in front or more in back than my aiming point, but I will usually hit somewhere. The longer the distance, the more chances to miss completely if you're off in your estimate.
Hey but that's why they didn't come back from every patrol with 100.000 tons on the log...
I now feel quite happy when I get home with anything above 30.000 tons after a 4 weeks patrol. (not talking after the "happy times" when I am already very happy to get back home :D)

[Iron Budokan]

Yep, I agree. Real uboat capts rarely sniped a ship from across the horizon like you can almost do in sh3. The more I think about this the more inclined I am to give it a try.....

I know my tonnage will drop. But, heck, it took a nosedive when GWX came out anyway! :rotfl:

[theluckyone17]

I'm right there with you. I'm getting really good at getting myself in front of my target without getting seen, then maneuvering so that the target will pass approximately 500-1000m either in front or behind my boat.

Speed comes from a rough guess from the hydrophones. AOB comes from a rough guess on the 'scope. A steam torp set at fast moves quick enough that you can be off on your guess, and still hit. Short range means less of a chance of a premie, too.

I'm playing without an external cam (glutton for punishment, who me?), so it makes it gawd awful hard to figure out why I miss, too... did I guess too slow? Too far? Or did the ship get lifted by the waves, so my magnetic trigger didn't go off? Or was it just a dud?

Nothing to do but fire another one off...

[Jazer]

I like this idea. How do you pull out the TDC in peri or uzu view? I didn't know you could that?

[Krupp]

I am in no way near to being a WW2 submarine expert, I’m just here enjoying the fun. Now I was just recently reading a book on German subs and in it was a vintage torpedo room picture showing the crewman sitting on and around a torpedo, one of them had a special wench and looked like he was turning something on the torpedo. The picture’s caption said “German adjusting torpedo’s gages”
Now did they have to do this every time the target changed and then shove the fish into the tube,? How did the info from these "Whiz Wheels" get to the torpedos, before they went into the tubes or after, if after, how?

Torpedo maintenance was everyday job for the torpedopersonnels in the boat, they checked the rudders, hydroplanes, depthkeepingthingies, batteries etc. Also they changed the magnetic zone settings depending on their location (North Sea, Nothern Atlantic...).

IIRC, The data (AoB, gyroangle, speed, depth...) from the "TDC" was transferred via small rotating axles (inside the tube), that were connected top of the torpedoes before launching. Just prior the launch, those axles were disconnected (upwards) and then compressed air just pushed torpedo out of the tube and torpedoes own propulsion fired.

[peterloo]

sine, cosine are trigonometry ratios (u will learn it in mathematics)

With them, you can figure out the range of target from you, and the other torpedo settings

U-boat crews will enter their calculated values into AOB, which configurates the fish. Then, they will fire it, hopefully to score a hit

[von Zelda]

I had trouble several times with the notepad like forgetting to cancel old data. Since then I make my inputs directly in the slide out dials in scope or UZO view. This way I can have a last look before shooting that all data is correct.

Where are these slide out dials and how do you access them?

[Corsair]

I had trouble several times with the notepad like forgetting to cancel old data. Since then I make my inputs directly in the slide out dials in scope or UZO view. This way I can have a last look before shooting that all data is correct.
Where are these slide out dials and how do you access them?

You go in the Mod Workshop and look for threads about "6 dials simfeeling" or you can get them I suppose by Uboat real simulation website. (For NYGM this is an optional JSGME install included in the download of 2.2)
Besides replacing original speed, depth and compass dials by nice huge slideout ones (good for my aging eyes) this mod installs slideout TDC dials in periscope and UZO view, which means you don't need to go back and forth to TDC anymore.
I have in fact 2 different versions (in NYGM the dials slideout from top, in GWX - I have version from Boris - they slide out from bottom left and are bigger) You also have another slideout for all torpedo managing.
The manual input is activated by Ctrl-T and closed by same. (I changed key in Boris version which was Shift-T so I have same key command in both installs.)

[IceGrog]

Torpedo maintenance was everyday job for the torpedopersonnels in the boat, they checked the rudders, hydroplanes, depthkeepingthingies, batteries etc. Also they changed the magnetic zone settings depending on their location (North Sea, Nothern Atlantic...).

IIRC, The data (AoB, gyroangle, speed, depth...) from the "TDC" was transferred via small rotating axles (inside the tube), that were connected top of the torpedoes before launching. Just prior the launch, those axles were disconnected (upwards) and then compressed air just pushed torpedo out of the tube and torpedoes own propulsion fired.

thank you very much,,,,,,,,,,,that made it very clear:up:

[don1reed]

Iron B: I pull this photo up about once every 6 mo. or so, to show that the UBoat skippers used whiz-wheels too.

...and, they also used sliderules, both circular and the linerar type for trigonometry solutions.

...also, check out this thread:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=94608

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j42/donhreed/TDCWHEEL.jpg

[Iron Budokan]

Thank you very much, that's really informative! :up:

[Jazer]

will the pull-out dials work with GWX?

[Corsair]

Look in the Mods Workshops, there are several threads about GWX compatible versions. I use the one made by Boris.

[AS]

Historically they really eyeballed most of their targets. Speed could be estimated by the sonar man who could count the propulsion (pretty much the simple version of how they do it in high tech subs today). Apart from those theoretical things it was just experince. And we shouldn´t underestimate the "real world" factor: Just imagine you were on a real U-Boat tower with a huge merchant in front of you - how difficult would it be to hit such a vessel? It would be more simple than in SH3, I´m sure, because you were actually THERE and with some experience you would learn to judge the right data instinctively. Sadly, this cannot be simulated in any subsim I guess...

[Corsair]

Well it is simulated in some way... like in real life, you learn a lot by experience. After having some patrols on the log, you can identify ships without going to the book, and you start to have some rough idea of the distance - at least in close quarters like 500 to 2000m - as well by looking in the scope or the UZO.

[Iron Budokan]

Yes, I agree there is a sim factor here we can count on but of course that wouldn't compare to being up there on the conning tower as your ship races across the ocean towards a merchant. There you can take in and integrate all the factors you are experiencing: sight, sound, angles, the breeze against your face, the actual movement of the ship and distance as it nears its prey, speed, etc. Like you said it's probably not simmable...at least not in the near future.

I've done a bit of sailing. The experience on a sailboat isn't comparable at all to say Virtual Sailor...not in the least. IRL you're taking in your environment through your senses and using that information to do what is needed. Here we're staring at a two-dimensional screen.

Now if SH only went 3-D with pitch and roll motion chairs we could sit in, along with a little squirt bottle that sprayed sea water on your face and an implosion band you fit around your skull that would constrict as your little uboat plummeted towards the ocean floor because Bernard had left the tube doors open to the sea.... :)