Manual targeting Process?

[dc1962]

I've been playing SH for a year, and am still somewhat at a loss for finding a good way of doing manual targeting. It is of course a challenge trying to do all the calculations without an officer to assist and the need to hit F-6 to input manually and shift away from the periscope view.

But the main problem remains gauging target speed and distance.


1) Is there a good way to measure speed, other than setting a parallel course and determining it that way, especially while submerged? I believe the u boats could get a ship’s speed by the counting the propeller rotations, is there a way of doing that in the game? Any other suggestions?

2) Having spent some time at sea, I am aware that one get’s experienced at judging distances, which is hard to duplicate in a game. But what are other ways to judge distance in SH? The interface using measuring mast height is always inaccurate for me. Can you use the periscope’s recital pattern like you would in a modern set of binos with the mil divisions to gain distance? If so how?

If this posted any where please let me know.

Thanks

[Kiwi Commandant]

I've been playing SH for a year, and am still somewhat at a loss for finding a good way of doing manual targeting. It is of course a challenge trying to do all the calculations without an officer to assist and the need to hit F-6 to input manually and shift away from the periscope view.

But the main problem remains gauging target speed and distance.


1) Is there a good way to measure speed, other than setting a parallel course and determining it that way, especially while submerged? I believe the u boats could get a ship’s speed by the counting the propeller rotations, is there a way of doing that in the game? Any other suggestions?



It seems you are playing 100% realism. How would you feel about using only the map position updates feature ( which results in 97% realism). Then you get the target´s position which makes for much easier speed calculations, using the 3 min 15 sec rule or similar.

[don1reed]

The easiest way to "do speed" is to be setting off the target's track about 1000m, either travelling at 1 kn. or temporarily at all-stop.

Place the vertical reticule on the targets bow, begin the stop watch...without moving the scope until the target passes, stop the stopwatch when the stern crosses the vertical...do the math, i.e.,
C3 (150m LOA) / time in seconds x 1.95 = speed in knots.

Distance: never worry about the distance...just get close enough to the target's track to where the length of the ship fills the scope lens at X6 or X10 (depending on the mod you use.)

[Sawdust]

Can you use the periscope’s recital pattern like you would in a modern set of binos with the mil divisions to gain distance? If so how? I made some tables that let you convert the periscope's reticle pattern into a distance for ships. If you're interested, they can be found here: http://webpages.charter.net/sawdust/sh3/sh3.html

As for speed, I use the method where you mark a ship's position on the map at two points...a fixed amount of time between them. If you mark the distance (in kilometers) covered by a ship in 3 minutes and 14 seconds, then multiply by 10 and you have a speed in knots. Or, to save time, measure the distance covered by a ship in 1:37 (half of 3:14), and then double the result from above.

The most famous site for good manual targetting is Wazoo's page: http://www.paulwasserman.net/SHIII/

[Mav87th]

Sawdust - those pages are way cool.

If you give me your blessing ill try to get them transported to tga files and have them show up as sheets in peri and uzo modes...:ping:

[dc1962]

I seem to remember a post (can't find it now) where someone posted the number of propeller rotations and translated that into speed?

I like as close as 100% realism--except I like the external view for the visual graphics duirng the game but I don't use if during combat.

The problem I have with the map view is it simply give me too much information about the enemy. IT takes a lot of the mystery out of the game, at least for me.


Thanks again for the input

I might add that my main complant about this game and the great mods such as GWX is it is too darn addictive. I am at home trying to get some writing done and keep getting distracted!! :cry:

[don1reed]

greyrider had a system prior to NYGM and GWX. The two mods changed all the prop pitch sounds and I don't believe greyrider's system works any longer...but, check out this thread:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=88997&highlight=count+prop+pitch

cheers,

[raduz]

I've been playing SH for a year, and am still somewhat at a loss for finding a good way of doing manual targeting. It is of course a challenge trying to do all the calculations without an officer to assist and the need to hit F-6 to input manually and shift away from the periscope view.

But the main problem remains gauging target speed and distance.


1) Is there a good way to measure speed, other than setting a parallel course and determining it that way, especially while submerged? I believe the u boats could get a ship’s speed by the counting the propeller rotations, is there a way of doing that in the game? Any other suggestions?

2) Having spent some time at sea, I am aware that one get’s experienced at judging distances, which is hard to duplicate in a game. But what are other ways to judge distance in SH? The interface using measuring mast height is always inaccurate for me. Can you use the periscope’s recital pattern like you would in a modern set of binos with the mil divisions to gain distance? If so how?

If this posted any where please let me know.

Thanks
hi,

yes, there is a way to judge distances and speeds quite precisely, if you are able to use the hydrophone properly. i have been working with hydrophone intensively since 5 months so maybe I can give you some little advice. however, there is a couple of problems:

first of all, you didnt mention what type of game do you play (stock/GWX/NYGM). this is an important information because modded game doesnt allow you to count the RPM and determinate the distances. (some modders changed the original propeller sounds which made the original RPM charts useless...)

however, you can use the hydrophone and the charts if you replace the modded propeler sounds by the original ones (those are the files located in data/sounds finishing on "hyd.wav" , e.g. "cargo_hyd.wav", "oil_tanker_hyd.wav" etc.).

this will allow you to use the Greyrider and cpt. Nautilus RPM charts. they are located in the sound trainer readme file. you can download the sound trainer here:
http://www.subsim.com/subsim_files/patches2005.html#sh3
i like these charts but i have to warn you that they are not allways precise (according to my tests and my experience). but it is good for beginning.

problem No 2., you have to realize that even if you replaced the sound files, some supermods add new ships to the game (GWX: ore carrier, artillery barge, pyro ammunition ship...) and these new ships are not included in Greyriders RPM charts. so you cant count theirs RPM unless someone (you?:)) create the new charts.

problem No 3, the propeler sounds are not specific for each ship. sometimes yes, but you have to be pretty skilled to discriminate small differences between sounds. when using the hydrophone, you can say what type of ship you intercepted but it is really difficult to say whether the contact is a small merchant or a C2. BUT - it is possible, if you are listening carefully. progressively, you can learn to discriminate almost all the sounds. but the new GWX ships make your task even more difficult because AFAIK, the GWX team did not add the new propeler sounds. (correct me if I am wrong). they just added the new ships and they made them to share theirs propeler sound with the other ships. that means, one propeler sound will now make you think about 4-5 ships......

for these reasons, me personally, i prefer the stock SH3. I am able to judge the speed of the contact quite precisely. (the distance too, although my calculations are approximative). however, it is accurate enough for a kill.

if you want to know more about the hydrophone tehcniques, try to find ALL the posts by Greyrider. you can find it on this forum. i was thinking about editing a hydrophone tutorial but I see that almost all kaleuns here are playing the GWX or some other supermod so I think it would be useless, especially when the sound propelers are changed and a lot of people doesnt use the hydrophone. besides this, the GWX allows you to use the sonar operator assistance (those black lines indicating the bearing to contact and the approximative range) with 100 percent realism so I think in GWX, there is no need to rely on hydrophone too much .

that said, I recommend you to start by making a test mission in the mission editor. place a ship in a specific distance, travelling at a specific speed and try to count the RPM and to judge the distance by compairing the sound of propeler to the sound of the hydrophone environment (background). this way, you can set some triggers that will tell you where the contact is. when the sound of the propeller overdrowns the background sound, i know that the contact is closer then 18 km. (be carefull, this can be different for everyone because we all hear in different way). it is up to you to set the triggers.

there is no time nor space for describing all this topic that but if you have a question, i am ready to help . good luck

[Jager]

My website (link in my sig) has a section on manual targeting. I was also sent a link to a filefront page that has three videos relating to tracking a target on the navigation map only. I am watching these videos trying to learn the sequence which is quite precise and doesn't even require the need of the periscope until its time to fire.

The link is HERE (http://hosted.filefront.com/dantenoc)

Author is dantenoc

[dc1962]

thanks Raduz for the input that was what I was looking for. I am playing GWX so it might not be possible short of changing sound files. I'll take your advice and run a test to work sound triggers.

[Iron Budokan]

Could someone please post a link on how to do manual targeting with no map contact updates? Thank you. :)

[don1reed]

Iron B:

Search: author, Dantenoc "How to sink ships"

[Iron Budokan]

Thank you!

[raduz]

thanks Raduz for the input that was what I was looking for. I am playing GWX so it might not be possible short of changing sound files. I'll take your advice and run a test to work sound triggers.

you are welcome. alas, the GWX prefers the DD evading instead of hydrophone hunting, so... keep testing in the mission editor, just for fun:)

[dmlavan]

I'm playing SH3 w/ the awesome GWX mod. I found Sawdust's tables that convert mils off the periscope reticule to a range based on mast height (thanks Sawdust - great work). However, GWX increases the periscope magnification to 10x. Does anyone know the equation to determine range based on mast head height and mils, so I can make my own table based on the new magnification? Thank.s

[Sawdust]

I'm playing SH3 w/ the awesome GWX mod. I found Sawdust's tables that convert mils off the periscope reticule to a range based on mast height (thanks Sawdust - great work). However, GWX increases the periscope magnification to 10x. Does anyone know the equation to determine range based on mast head height and mils, so I can make my own table based on the new magnification? Thank.s
I'm glad you like those tables, dmlavan. The missing ingredient for making range tables for GWX is the number of degrees that each mark on the 2 periscopes and UZO represent in GWX. (For example, the tables I made for regular SHIII use the data from page 39 in the manual which says that a small tick mark in the zoomed periscope is 0.25° (a quarter of a degree). (Though, note the published UZO value of 0.20° is incorrect, based on my experiments; it should say 0.15°.)

If the GWX guys would share this info, I could whip up some similar tables for use with this popular mod.

[maillemaker]

Wow, fantastic video! All this time I've been avoiding doing manual targetting because I thought it would be too hard. That wasn't bad at all! I figured setting the angle on the bow was going to be a long drawn out geometric process - instead you just spin the sub around the target until it matches up what you see in the scope. Not bad at all.

I was really intimidated by all those knobs and things in the TDC view.

That was a great video tutorial. Thanks!

[WeeBubba]

hi raduz

i am using GWX mod. and i have been reading ur tutorial. but u r saying that GWX mod doesnt have much call for hydrophone as sonar operator maps black lines on map showing target location and distance on map.

im wondering which is the best way. to keep GWX method and ignore ur tutorial. but part of me finds ur tutorial very interesting and wants to learn more.

is it possible to keep GWX and retain ur hydrophone methods with no sonar black lines on map? is this what u would recommend. i am really enjoying the challenge of this game and i am simply looking for the most immersive experience thanks

[raduz]

I am not sure what exactly is your point, but if you simply want to remove the black lines just uncheck the "map updates on" (or check "map updates off", I dont remember) in realism settigns and the lines will disappear.

[Maraz]

1) Is there a good way to measure speed, other than setting a parallel course and determining it that way, especially while submerged? I believe the u boats could get a ship’s speed by the counting the propeller rotations, is there a way of doing that in the game? Any other suggestions?

2) Having spent some time at sea, I am aware that one get’s experienced at judging distances, which is hard to duplicate in a game. But what are other ways to judge distance in SH? The interface using measuring mast height is always inaccurate for me. Can you use the periscope’s recital pattern like you would in a modern set of binos with the mil divisions to gain distance? If so how?



Getting the ship's speed by counting RPM was not possible in the real world, it's sort of a cheat of this game, so I advise you not to do it for the sake of realism.

You should have a look at Wazoo's guide about plotting and targeting:
http://www.paulwasserman.net/SHIII/

If you don't like plotting on the map, you might get the Kriegsmarine Whiz Wheel by Hitman:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114351

the guide for using it (or actually the US Navy equivalent but it's practically the same) can be found here:
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/attackfinder/index.htm

Good luck with your manual targeting and don't be tempted to switch to "god's eye" or auto targeting, that takes away most of the fun and realism!

Maraz

[looney]

It WAS possible to get speed from counting RPM...

See here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=88997&highlight=count+prop+pitch

[Hadrys]

If you want realism than stop plotting on the map, keep the whole situation in your head, make simple notes from observations and use this (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112765) if really needed. Most of the time while doing stuff in your head you will just know what to do. Experience is the key.

[don1reed]

I agree with looney & greyrider et al and fully subscribe to USN doctrine of the war years that "prop count" was used...

...however, how does this effect the major MODS?

1) in the original and 1.4 patch & NYGM mod, prop counts can be utilized.
2) Not so for GWX as they have changed the sounds and alas, the individual prop sounds are lost.

3) BUT...all is not lost if you use GWX, as you can install the original prop sounds over the one's in gwx...and you're back in business.

[Hitman]

For me in SH3 it doesn't matter if counting RPM in WW2 was realistic or not, since german U-Boot crews certainly didn't do it, so I also don't and use the same methods as them:yep: In SH4 it is another matter, though:hmm:

[raduz]

I agree with looney & greyrider et al and fully subscribe to USN doctrine of the war years that "prop count" was used...

...however, how does this effect the major MODS?

1) in the original and 1.4 patch & NYGM mod, prop counts can be utilized.
2) Not so for GWX as they have changed the sounds and alas, the individual prop sounds are lost.

3) BUT...all is not lost if you use GWX, as you can install the original prop sounds over the one's in gwx...and you're back in business.

check here, I made a small "mod" including RPM chart allowing this:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=107303

[don1reed]

Sorry I missed that, Raduz. Great job!:D

[Mowinz]

You may wish to watch this video. We made it to assist our newcomers learn the basics of manual targetting. It may be a bit too simple for you, as it is aimed at complete beginners, but I've posted the link anyway in case it helps.

http://3rdflotilla.org/videos/manual_targetting_notepad.wmv
It's a WMV file, about 26 Mbytes, and lasts about 6 minutes 15 seconds.

-- Dietrich.

Thanks for that! I've been at this game for some time now and manual targeting is the icing on the cake for this game. This whole thread has been very helpful. I'm playing at 74% and always wanted to do the manual targeting. As a late comer to this game (my first naval game) it can be difficult learning the ropes and finding those essential mods. One can easily spend hours upon hours digging around finding useful bits of info and game add-ons. Manual targeting should bring this game to a higher level and I'm looking forward to it.

Great thread!

Thanks again! :up:

Cheers

[Nuoz]

I determine everything either by visual experience or plotting. I'd like to stress one thing though, which will save you lots of torpedos: always aim for the smoke stock. always. Because most likely than not your speed will be an aproximate value, so you have a better hitting chance if you aim for the smoke stock. Good hunting!

[Maraz]

Let's wait with patience what will come out from Hitman's research... then we will know how to !! ;)

Maraz