GWX: Uber Allied Detection that does not occur in GW1.1

[Koinonos]

I installed GWX and began playing and attempt to see how the Destroyer/Flower Corvette/Escort ships intelligence was and it appears to be expert always.

I am submitting this post in the hopes that other test and find the same issues that I have that may force me back to Grey Wolves 1.1a. The tests below do appear to confirm that GWX has an Uber AI detection bug as they always fail even with an Uber Quiet sub. The same tests in my SH3/Grey Wolves 1.1a always pass as the ships have the expected AI.

Setup:
======
Install #1 - SH3, 1.4 patch, and GW 1.1a - No other mods
Install #2 - SH3, 1.4 patch, and GWX - No other mods

Subs:
=====
1.) Standard 1939/1940 VII sub

2.) Uber equipped VIIC with 1943 equipment available in Jan 1940 to determine if improved sub and stealth equipment helps to minimize detection or boost getaway chances. This means Alberiche anti-sonar coating, 1st gen sub decoy, and 1/3 speed reduced to .20 from .26 to make it's noise signature as low as possible.

Example of Uber AI found in GWX:
-----------------------------------

Test #1
----------
In Sept, 1939 I took a VIIB out and completely silent, submerged, no snorkel, at full stop, at just under 1000 yards away from the path of DD my sub's Stealth meter went Red, and went silent 5 miles before the DD showed up. That smack of DD crews either being set for Expert/Elite (in 1939?) or they are running their ADSIC on always - yet I don't hear it on sonar (bug?)

So I decided to test this and created a modified basic.cfg to allow VIIC, Alberiche anti-sonar coating, and the first version noisemaker decoy and modifed 1/3 speed to be .20 instead of it's default to make the sub as quiet as possible for January of 1940 when the Allied crews have essentially had no combat time.

RESULTS:
GWX: No matter how stealthy you set it up. If you are within 900 meters (especially within 400 meters) of a DE/DD/Armed Trawler dead quiet, submerged, and stealthy miles before they even show up you will be detected no matter whether you have a basic 1939 VIIB or an Unber 1943 sub.
GW1.1: The Destoyer never detects me, even in 1943/44 since the sub made no movement or action to create any noise to give my position away.



TEST #2 - Does a early 1940 Armed Trawler have Uber detection AI? Yep..
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
So with 1942 Uber VIIC in hand I took it over to Bristol at night, torpedoed a docked ship to get an Jan, 1940 Armed Trawler's attention from 1500 meters away, and then cruised past it at 1,000 meters with my Uber Quiet submarine (stealth status is green), Silent running set, periscope down, and at 25 meter depth @ 2knots.

The moment my sub hit 999 meters (inside of 1000) as a suspected - My stealth meter went immeadiately Red, the Armed Trawler acquired me and after attempting multiple attempts to shake it using techniques frequent discussed including the noisemaker I could not get a 1942 Alberiche noisemaker decoy sub to shake a simple Armed Trawler in January of 1940.

RESULTS:
GWX: After ten attempts the results were the same with the 1939 VIIB or the Uber 1943 VIIC. If you get within 1,000 meters (even completely stopped and submerged) you will be detected without ASDIC.
GW1.1a: 50% of the time the 1939 VIIB could slip away undetected. Around 90% of the time with our Uber sub as to be expected even with active ASDIC on so long as you were >400 meters away.


TEST #3 - Can I sneak up to within 1,000 meters of a unspecting/unalerted Port with my Ubersub without automagically being detected at 2am? Not anymore.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
My next test was to reload and come up on ships docked in a unsuspecting harbor (with no military activity anywhere from Kiel and no plane or ship detection to ensure a good test). Running @ 2knots with said uber 1942 sub with Alberiche coating the moment I got to within 1000 meters of the ships my stealth meter immeadiately went Red, within 500 meter and their lights came on and all Trawlers/DE/DD destroyers docked had their search lights on.

RESULTS:
GWX: If you come within 600-900 meters of a enemy port a ship docked *will* detect you no matter what you do.
GW1.1: You can cruise around in a port with near impunity @2 knots until you make some significant noise or expose the sub on the surface.


I *really* think GWX is cool and I *really* want to play it. But not until I can figure out how to prevent automatic/always detection that I observed, reproduced, and documented above.

Does anyone have any ideas about how to dial down GWX's apparent Uber detection by any ship? Is there a way to transplant GW 1.1's AI instead?

[Corsair]

You should imho first stop using the stupid stealth meter, then re-think your tactics (showing little profile for instance, going down to 1 knt instead of 2, etc..) U-boats were there to sink merchant shipping at sea, not to troll around inside british harbours...:D
PS : re the ASDIC you don't hear, the DDs have also good hydrophones. You can at night get closer running surfaced than submerged if you are careful with the profile you show and not speeding.

[hornetsting]

Here is a link where you can download a zipfile from CB

I have installed it and gwx is now really great.


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=86629&page=5

[Pants]

You should imho first stop using the stupid stealth meter, then re-think your tactics (showing little profile for instance, going down to 1 knt instead of 2, etc..) :D
Agreed, don't depend on the stealth meter..you will know if you have been "detected" when ship alters course to either intercept you ( escorts ) or try to evade you ( merchants )
Like we keep saying you need new tactics with GWX, running with your scope fully up will cause wakes...enemy ships will spot the wakes, getting in close during day time they will spot your underwater Silhouette, Firing a steam torp you will see the escorts change course and head towards where the torp can from. And they have better opics than you.

Like KL keeps saying the rough weather and night time are your best allies

[mr chris]

True you need new tatics in GWX:up:
Think like a real U-Boat Kpt:yep:
Pants since when have you been stealthy? :rotfl: :rotfl: J/K mate:up:

[Pants]

Pants since when have you been stealthy? :rotfl: :rotfl: J/K mate:up:

Ermm...when staring down the barrels of a BB..then i go stealthy :p

[mr chris]

Pants since when have you been stealthy? :rotfl: :rotfl: J/K mate:up:

Ermm...when staring down the barrels of a BB..then i go stealthy :p

Ah a man after my own heart:arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!:

[HunterICX]

Wouldnt that be funny

you just surfaced and you as the captain go first up to smoke ur pipe....
and when you just lit the pipe you look up and ur starring at the barrels of the Battery guns the BB nelson has...:o

Alaaarm?!?

[mr chris]

Wouldnt that be funny

you just surfaced and you as the captain go first up to smoke ur pipe....
and when you just lit the pipe you look up and ur starring at the barrels of the Battery guns the BB nelson has...:o

Alaaarm?!?

ALARM??
Hell no on my boat it would be MAN THE DECK GUN:arrgh!: :arrgh!: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Pants]

I'd shove Bernards head in one of the barrels :p then i'd make a run for it and watch the fireworks :rotfl:

[danlisa]

You know, just because you're submerged and stopped, you're boat is still generating noise. There's lots of moving parts in a U-Boat.;) You can't expect just because you make like a hole in the water that you won't be detected.

I see this as a BIG THUMBS UP for the GWX AI system.

GWX Rules
Learn
Adapt
Play.

[E.B. Fluckey]

I believe his point is that no matter what you do, if you are withing 1000 meters of any enemy warship you will be detected. Even if you are silent, scope down. Even if they are docked and half the crew are in the whore houses.

This seems like a valid bug report. Why dismiss it so quickly as operator error?

[Pants]

I believe his point is that no matter what you do, if you are withing 1000 meters of any enemy warship you will be detected. Even if you are silent, scope down. Even if they are docked and half the crew are in the whore houses.

This seems like a valid bug report. Why dismiss it so quickly as operator error?
You should imho first stop using the stupid stealth meter, then re-think your tactics (showing little profile for instance, going down to 1 knt instead of 2, etc..) :D
Agreed, don't depend on the stealth meter..you will know if you have been "detected" when ship alters course to either intercept you ( escorts ) or try to evade you ( merchants )
Like we keep saying you need new tactics with GWX, running with your scope fully up will cause wakes...enemy ships will spot the wakes, getting in close during day time they will spot your underwater Silhouette, Firing a steam torp you will see the escorts change course and head towards where the torp can from. And they have better opics than you.

Like KL keeps saying the rough weather and night time are your best allies


Already answered this, i did not mention anything about operator error, just saying change your tactics.

[mr chris]

The is a saying in the Army which runs true for GWX.
It is similar to what Danlisa said. But here goes.
Impervise, adapt and overcome:up:

[hyperion2206]

I believe his point is that no matter what you do, if you are withing 1000 meters of any enemy warship you will be detected. Even if you are silent, scope down. Even if they are docked and half the crew are in the whore houses.

This seems like a valid bug report. Why dismiss it so quickly as operator error? You should imho first stop using the stupid stealth meter, then re-think your tactics (showing little profile for instance, going down to 1 knt instead of 2, etc..) :D
Agreed, don't depend on the stealth meter..you will know if you have been "detected" when ship alters course to either intercept you ( escorts ) or try to evade you ( merchants )
Like we keep saying you need new tactics with GWX, running with your scope fully up will cause wakes...enemy ships will spot the wakes, getting in close during day time they will spot your underwater Silhouette, Firing a steam torp you will see the escorts change course and head towards where the torp can from. And they have better opics than you.

Like KL keeps saying the rough weather and night time are your best allies

Already answered this, i did not mention anything about operator error, just saying change your tactics.


You have to change your tactics but a 100% detection rate is IMHO a bit to high. 75% would be more realistic. But that's just my opinion.

[Laffertytig]

ok heres my scenario in the med in june 1942. was spotted by a group of 4 destroyers at night and crashed dived, destroyers pinged me and made a couple of dd passes. i dived to 160 metres, went to 3 knots and rigged for silent running. they stopped pingin and droppin dd's but kept circling me for over 1 hour game time. cos they werent pingin i thought they must hear me so went to 0 knots and waited. yet after another hour they are still circling, no pinging no depth charges.

surely a sub at 160 metres, 0 knots and rigged for silent running shouldnt be heard by hydrophones? have they forgotten they have asdic?? and if they can hear me for some weird reason why arent they attacking me??

i realise this aint a GWX problem just the retarded AI at its best. how can it be so hard to program detroyers to act like destroyers, hell they done it in SH1 after all!

has anyone had any joy using any other AI mod?

[AVGWarhawk]

ok heres my scenario in the med in june 1942. was spotted by a group of 4 destroyers at night and crashed dived, destroyers pinged me and made a couple of dd passes. i dived to 160 metres, went to 3 knots and rigged for silent running. they stopped pingin and droppin dd's but kept circling me for over 1 hour game time. cos they werent pingin i thought they must hear me so went to 0 knots and waited. yet after another hour they are still circling, no pinging no depth charges.

surely a sub at 160 metres, 0 knots and rigged for silent running shouldnt be heard by hydrophones? have they forgotten they have asdic?? and if they can hear me for some weird reason why arent they attacking me??

i realise this aint a GWX problem just the retarded AI at its best. how can it be so hard to program detroyers to act like destroyers, hell they done it in SH1 after all!

has anyone had any joy using any other AI mod?

4 destroyers?????? No wonder they had a field day with you. All 4 working together.....perhaps it would have been best to turn on your heels and leave. I would be hard pressed to attack with 4 destroyers hanging around. Put that is just me.

Ok, as far as going silent and all stop. Of couse the destroyers will still circle your last known contact point. They know you did not blast off to the other side of the ocean....they know you are sitting below...just do not have the exact location. Seems realistic to me.....what, did the warships detect and lose contact then move on 5 minutes later....NO, they hung out in hopes to detect you again. Come on folks, you are not going to dive, go silent then have the warships move on 5 minutes later. Complete hog wash. They would circle and keep you down if they could take all day to do so they did.

Furthermore, I went by a destroyer on the surface on a clear night at 500m undetected.Hell, I was doing 10 knots and making all kinds of noise. The destroyer went on by and did not flinch. This was 1939. Furthermore I evaded an armed trawler and destroyer without issue. I was submerged at 1 kt and countered every search pattern they used. I got close to the bottom in hopes to throw off the ASDIC.

The time for arcade warships is over. "BE MORE AGGRESSIVE"

One more thing....did every u-boat that used every method of evasion work? NO! Be prepared to give up on some patrols and become a prisioner of war! Thanks GWX for making it real!

[Laffertytig]

i think you've missed the main point of my post.

WHY ARENT THEY USING ASDIC?

its just bizzarre that these four dd's wouldnt use their prime method of detection and is a glaring AI bug, not with the mod but the game itself.
everytime a major mod comes out i come back to SH3 hoping it will be the classic sim it should be and everytime i end up wastin 3 or 4 hours on it only for the AI to sell it short.

it sure looks good though!! but looks alone dont cut it with me in a sim.

[sergbuto]

has anyone had any joy using any other AI mod?
I still have a joy with vanilla SH3. Convoy escorts/destroyers are pictured quite well. Realistic behavior in my opinion. In RL, in early war, British did not even know that U-boats can go that deep and had depth charges with possible maximum depth setting of only 91 m.

The worst enemies of U-boats were aircrafts and hunter-killer groups, not convoy escorts. The later had a job to protect ships in convoy, not to hunt one sub for hours thus giving the opportunity for other subs to destroy the convoy.

In SH2, escorts/DDs were too tough in this respect and I think that SH3 devs did quite a decent job in getting this right.

[AVGWarhawk]

i think you've missed the main point of my post.

WHY ARENT THEY USING ASDIC?

its just bizzarre that these four dd's wouldnt use their prime method of detection and is a glaring AI bug, not with the mod but the game itself.
everytime a major mod comes out i come back to SH3 hoping it will be the classic sim it should be and everytime i end up wastin 3 or 4 hours on it only for the AI to sell it short.

it sure looks good though!! but looks alone dont cut it with me in a sim.

ASDIC was basically a cone projected from the front of the ship, not straight down. Also it was usless at about 400 feet ahead of the ship. Sonar was sometimes best to locate the uboat. Am I saying the game is perfect with ASDIC? No it is not but I believe it is as good as it can get with what the team had to work with. AI will always miss that human element no matter what we do. ;)

[AVGWarhawk]

has anyone had any joy using any other AI mod? I still have a joy with vanilla SH3. Convoy escorts/destroyers are pictured quite well. Realistic behavior in my opinion. In RL, in early war, British did not even know that U-boats can go that deep and had depth charges with possible maximum depth setting of only 91 m.

The worst enemies of U-boats were aircrafts and hunter-killer groups, not convoy escorts. The later had a job to protect ships in convoy, not to hunt one sub for hours thus giving the opportunity for other subs to destroy the convoy.

In SH2, escorts/DDs were too tough in this respect and I think that SH3 devs did quite a decent job in getting this right.

Not true on the destroyer escorts, if at all possible they would stay as long as possible to find the uboat! If at all possible take the hours needed to find the boat. This is just what I have read so I'm not arguing your point. I think the DD are on the money with GWX.

[mookiemookie]

The AI is hard coded, as far as I know. No matter what the mod, it will ALWAYS come up short. Thems the haps.

[Corsair]

And the good thing is that with all mods on the free market (you still can download RuB 1.45 or IuB ) plus the option of running stock game, I don't see why complaining. If you are not satisfied with how a mod goes, you can either tune it to your taste or try another one until you find what fits you. I am quite sure that even with supermods, most players are still adding little mods or playing with the config files. Well I am anyway...:D Today synchronized my NYGM and GWX sound base by picking up file by file which I liked better and adding some of Sailor's Steve mod...

[Hartmann]

I do the same

I have Rub 1.44 heavily modified with a lot of small mods
If you know the files structure and contents is not ivery difficult.:up:
but before make a backup copy in a separate folder in case of errors .

I`m downloading GWX now, but i´m sure that i would rip and modify some things until it fit my taste.:hmm:

The main task of scorts is take the initiative to the submarine, forcing it to dive during some time , not stay chasing the boat forever. Aircrafts were the main cause of u-boat loses.

[sergbuto]

has anyone had any joy using any other AI mod? I still have a joy with vanilla SH3. Convoy escorts/destroyers are pictured quite well. Realistic behavior in my opinion. In RL, in early war, British did not even know that U-boats can go that deep and had depth charges with possible maximum depth setting of only 91 m.

The worst enemies of U-boats were aircrafts and hunter-killer groups, not convoy escorts. The later had a job to protect ships in convoy, not to hunt one sub for hours thus giving the opportunity for other subs to destroy the convoy.

In SH2, escorts/DDs were too tough in this respect and I think that SH3 devs did quite a decent job in getting this right.

Not true on the destroyer escorts, if at all possible they would stay as long as possible to find the uboat! If at all possible take the hours needed to find the boat. This is just what I have read so I'm not arguing your point. I think the DD are on the money with GWX.

And I have read/learned what I have said. So, it is true. So, I think the DDs are on the money with stock SH3.

You already expressed your view quite a number of times so that everyone should know about it. In turn, I was actually responding to Laffertytig's question and frankly not interested in your definitions of what is true/not true.

[Jimbuna]

The is a saying in the Army which runs true for GWX.
It is similar to what Danlisa said. But here goes.
Impervise, adapt and overcome:up:

We have a saying in the police Force..."If at first you don't succeed...p*ss off and go home" lol :lol: :up:

[mr chris]

The is a saying in the Army which runs true for GWX.
It is similar to what Danlisa said. But here goes.
Impervise, adapt and overcome:up:

We have a saying in the police Force..."If at first you don't succeed...p*ss off and go home" lol :lol: :up:

Ah thats why England is in such a state:shifty: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Corsair]

I come from a town in France where people have been fighting at sea against british ships for centuries. I had my part in a more peaceful way by sailing races many years in british waters and being once in the crew of a RORC champion boat.
There is an old saying there " If God put the british on an island, there must be a good reason" :D
(No offense intended, being from celtic background I have close ties with many parts of the UK)

[mr chris]

There is an old saying there " If God put the british on an island, there must be a good reason" :D
(No offense intended, being from celtic background I have close ties with many parts of the UK)

Yep the reason being to keep the human elite as one. :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Corsair]

There is an old saying there " If God put the british on an island, there must be a good reason" :D
(No offense intended, being from celtic background I have close ties with many parts of the UK)
Yep the reason being to keep the human elite as one. :rotfl: :rotfl:

:rotfl::rotfl::up:

[mookiemookie]

has anyone had any joy using any other AI mod? I still have a joy with vanilla SH3. Convoy escorts/destroyers are pictured quite well. Realistic behavior in my opinion. In RL, in early war, British did not even know that U-boats can go that deep and had depth charges with possible maximum depth setting of only 91 m.

The worst enemies of U-boats were aircrafts and hunter-killer groups, not convoy escorts. The later had a job to protect ships in convoy, not to hunt one sub for hours thus giving the opportunity for other subs to destroy the convoy.

In SH2, escorts/DDs were too tough in this respect and I think that SH3 devs did quite a decent job in getting this right.
Not true on the destroyer escorts, if at all possible they would stay as long as possible to find the uboat! If at all possible take the hours needed to find the boat. This is just what I have read so I'm not arguing your point. I think the DD are on the money with GWX.
And I have read/learned what I have said. So, it is true. So, I think the DDs are on the money with stock SH3.

You already expressed your view quite a number of times so that everyone should know about it. In turn, I was actually responding to Laffertytig's question and frankly not interested in your definitions of what is true/not true.
http://www.valoratsea.com/destroyer.htm

For a convoy escort, destruction of a sub was a secondary priority. Putting as much space between the convoy and the sub was the primary job of the escort, unless (after contact with an enemy sub was made) it was detached from the convoy as part of a dedicated hunter/killer group. Then the priority became destruction of the enemy sub. So, you're both right. Now kiss and make up.

[Laffertytig]

i have to say im very surprised at your comments serbuto. how anyone could get any joy playin vanilla SH3 is beyond me but it is all about opinions and i respect yours. if it wasnt for mods i wouldvr shelved this game 1 month after i bought it in april last year.

noone is gonna convince me that the destroyer behaviour i described above is anywhere near realistic and it certainly doesnt give good gameplay. at the very least 1 of those dd's wouldvt hung of at a distance and pinged the area with asdic, i dont class june 1942 as early war. and i also never criticised GWX for this. if other people are happy with this kind of AI behaviour then thats cool.

im in the process of siftin through a thread where guys like CB and RED WINE were attempting to improve things so here's hopin i find somethin

[ref]

Here is a link where you can download a zipfile from CB

I have installed it and gwx is now really great.


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=86629&page=5

Are you talking about AIFight2.zip?
If it's that file you're breaking up a lot of thing in GWX, that file not only modifies AI_Sensors, it also changes command files, sim files (most of which are NOT COMPATIBLE with GWX files, rendering the ships useless), etc.

JUST TO BE CLEAR THIS IS AN OLD MOD AND NOT APPROVED FOR GWX


Ref

[clayton]

I tend to agree that the Destroyer's are a bit Uber, espically during the Happy Times, but they are perfect during the 43 and 44 war! :up: I have been playing sub games for twenty years and been reading about them for a lot longer, and every tactic in the book just doesn't work for the early war! That's ok, I suppose! You just have to play the way GWX wants you to play, and then it's ok! The secret is silent running at 2 knots! It's a great mod; I mean it's excellent! Just play it the GWX way!

Hey Serg; sorry I pi$$ed you off in a earlier post! I haven't played stock SH3 in a long time, and your probably right about the destroyers... I just keep hoping for that 'one' mod....

NSDQ

[Stix]

Silent running, deep and 1-2 knots NOT ahead slow!

Sometimes they are not good very good at detecting you but once they do that is the only way to evade.

Go ahead flank if needed to get you down deep (can't dive at 1 knot), once you down around 200 meters, 90 degree turn, silent running, 1 knot. They will keep dropping charges on where they last heard you but do this and you CAN evade.

Stix :)

[clayton]

Also, if your waiting for a convoy to cross your path while submerged, go silent running, 2 knots and around 30 to 40m depth. The lead escort 'should' not detect you. I never thought to go silent running waiting for a Convoy, especially if they had not detected you before hand. I shouldn't have to do that in 40 - 41 but I guess it's a trade-off! :hmm:

NSDQ

[sergbuto]

i have to say im very surprised at your comments serbuto. how anyone could get any joy playin vanilla SH3 is beyond me but it is all about opinions and i respect yours. if it wasnt for mods i wouldvr shelved this game 1 month after i bought it in april last year.
Perhaps, it would be somewhat easier for you in this case if you could go back and read various reviews and comments by SH3 players on these forums about how good SH3 is (something like "Best sub simulator ever") or how talanted the SH3 Devs are, and how SH3 will live for ages, right after the release of the game and after one month after the release and after two, three month...

Then after some time, some people started to complain how incredibly buggy, unfinished vanilla SH3 is and how Devs did not do a good job. Some claimed that they would drop it like in two-three weeks after buying if there was no modding and mods like RUB, IUB, etc.

This "progressed" further and f.e. recently I saw that some people started to call vanilla SH3 arcade game and some already call SH3 devs stupid.

So, I guess all those reviewers did not know what they are taking about (probably just wanted to please UBISOFT) and all the quite positive reviews were wrong including Subsim's review which gave SH3 ten out of ten? I guess UBISOFT started to make SH4 only because of its love to simulators, not because of profits on "boring and buggy" SH3 out of box?

The number of peoples coming to SH3 forums were always much higher as compared to e.g. SH2 which was recognised as a game with serious drawbacks both by reviewers and by the players. But even for SH2 I do not recall people saying that they shelved SH2 in two(!) weeks after they got it.

Anyhow, I was modding both SH2 and SH3 for quite some time and in my opinion any mod for SH3, no matter how damn good it is, is only a mod/tweaks for a solid SH3 simulator.

[LeafsFan]

If Uber escorts are the norm in 39 and 40, then that certainly is not historical.

HB

[Laffertytig]

is SH3 the best WW2 subsim out there? yes of course it is but i still reckon that SH1 playes better. there's no doubt that SH3's graphics are mindblowing but can anyone on these forums honestly say that they would still be playin it without any mods? ok maybe a few but not most.

all i want is for dd's, once they find me to attack me/drop depth charges and make me think. not circle endlessly like retards when i am so close.

man i wannna feel fear when there are 4 dd's directly above me but at present its so predictable and boring. im understand more casual players wont mind this, they just wanna sink ships etc but i prefer my sim to play like a sim.

[AVGWarhawk]

has anyone had any joy using any other AI mod? I still have a joy with vanilla SH3. Convoy escorts/destroyers are pictured quite well. Realistic behavior in my opinion. In RL, in early war, British did not even know that U-boats can go that deep and had depth charges with possible maximum depth setting of only 91 m.

The worst enemies of U-boats were aircrafts and hunter-killer groups, not convoy escorts. The later had a job to protect ships in convoy, not to hunt one sub for hours thus giving the opportunity for other subs to destroy the convoy.

In SH2, escorts/DDs were too tough in this respect and I think that SH3 devs did quite a decent job in getting this right.
Not true on the destroyer escorts, if at all possible they would stay as long as possible to find the uboat! If at all possible take the hours needed to find the boat. This is just what I have read so I'm not arguing your point. I think the DD are on the money with GWX.
And I have read/learned what I have said. So, it is true. So, I think the DDs are on the money with stock SH3.

You already expressed your view quite a number of times so that everyone should know about it. In turn, I was actually responding to Laffertytig's question and frankly not interested in your definitions of what is true/not true.
http://www.valoratsea.com/destroyer.htm

For a convoy escort, destruction of a sub was a secondary priority. Putting as much space between the convoy and the sub was the primary job of the escort, unless (after contact with an enemy sub was made) it was detached from the convoy as part of a dedicated hunter/killer group. Then the priority became destruction of the enemy sub. So, you're both right. Now kiss and make up.

Mookie:rotfl: :rotfl:
Yes, keep the uboat away from the lumbering convoy...how best to do this? Keep the uboat at bay as the convoy steams off. What tactic of the escort, ASDIC and sonar to keep an eye on the uboat, circle above throwing DC. It was not an issue for the escort to hang out for a while then steam off at 20kts back to the convoy that is hopefully a few miles off by that time. If there was a wolfpack, well then the escort would have to make a command decision to motor on with the convoy or keep at least one boat down.

I don't kiss and tell:rotfl: :rotfl:

[sergbuto]

man i wannna feel fear when there are 4 dd's directly above me but at present its so predictable and boring. im understand more casual players wont mind this, they just wanna sink ships etc but i prefer my sim to play like a sim.

Yes, I can understand that. In turn, I prefer to play as close as possible to what it was in RL (if anyone really knows how it was), no matter how predictable and boring it would be.

[Laffertytig]

sergbuto said
"Yes, I can understand that. In turn, I prefer to play as close as possible to what it was in RL (if anyone really knows how it was), no matter how predictable and boring it would be.[/quote]

i agree but again it seems you miss my point, or maybe u think 4 dd's forgettin to use active sonar while searchin for a sub IS realistic in which case u and i have very different ideas on realism/gameplay which is fair enough

[sergbuto]

sergbuto said
"Yes, I can understand that. In turn, I prefer to play as close as possible to what it was in RL (if anyone really knows how it was), no matter how predictable and boring it would be"


i agree but again it seems you miss my point, or maybe u think 4 dd's forgettin to use active sonar while searchin for a sub IS realistic in which case u and i have very different ideas on realism/gameplay which is fair enough

No I did not mean your particular case of 4 DDs related to GWX, I was rather referring to words "predictable and boring" as if they are applicable to convoy escorts behavior. You did not mention whether those 4 DDs were a TF/hunter-killer or convoy escorts so I can't comment on this particular case but in my view they should have used active sonar anyhow. The only thing I know if those were convoy escorts, hunting a single sub with four units and leaving convoy unprotected would be unappropriate behavior.

[Laffertytig]

just wanna clarify there's no way i was callin GWX or realism "predictable or boring" i was refering the experiece i had with those dd's.

if they wont use sonar then all i gotta do is hit 0 knots and they will never find me sure they might know im in the area but the chance if them sinkin me is ZERO, this equates to boring gameplay! oh and they were a hunter killer group but it shouldnt matter what they, they're job is to sink subs and they were doin a shocking job.

must admit i havent played since it happended so maybe it was a 1 off i dont know, these things tend to put me of playin