Did you ever think about it?

[AVGWarhawk]

After watching movies by Stabiz and footage from the real thing, etc. has anyone really thought about what the Germans were doing out there in the oceans? These guys were in a steel tube hundreds of mile from anywhere, including the bottom! There was no GPS or fast rescue boats. They depended on the compass and the stars to get where they were going. Talk about being out there on your own!! Next time you make the trip to the east coast in the game, stop in the middle of the Atlantic, go to outside view on the conning tower and just look at the expanse of water. This is what these guys had seen. Nothing but water and sky, while in a steel tube already over 1/2 sunk! It takes a large set of kahunas to do something like that in my view.

[bigboywooly]

Yeah it certainly does

I remember standing on the back of a ship some years ago in the bay of Biscay at night
Not a sound apart from the engines and not a light to be seen

Eerie but great all the same

They certainly deserve respect

[AVGWarhawk]

Yeah, eerie seems to be the word. Also a feeling of being insignificate in the large scheme of things.

[mookiemookie]

Take it a step further. Imagine being one of the guys in the engine room who never saw the sun, never got fresh air (except the few and far between times the kaleun let them up on deck) had no idea what was going on in an attack.

And still knowing that you were stranded in that iron coffin, in the middle of the ocean. Man, I would have gone stir crazy. I totally understand why Ghost from Das Boot flipped out.

[Jimbuna]

'Lonely' is the word that springs to mind with me....and the tight confined/cramped/damp conditions...yuk !!...what an existence :down:

[Sailor Steve]

Standing on a deck and seeing nothing but water all the way to the horizon? Yeah, that can be lonely. Being inside with 50 or 200 or 6000 other sailors? No, lonely isn't the word. "Suffocating"...that's the word.

[melnibonian]

No matter what we think of the second world war and Germany I feel we should respect the level of professionalism, endurance and (unfortunatelly) ruthlessness of the U-Boat crews. The achieve a lot with inferior machines and in really difficult conditions.

[mookiemookie]

The descriptions of the smell is what always gets me. The combined B.O. of 50 guys who haven't bathed in weeks, mixed with diesel oil, saltwater and urine on clothes that haven't been washed in weeks, and moldy food all in humid and stale air...blah. I wonder if you just became immune to it after a while. Turns your stomach!

[AVGWarhawk]

No matter what we think of the second world war and Germany I feel we should respect the level of professionalism, endurance and (unfortunatelly) ruthlessness of the U-Boat crews. The achieve a lot with inferior machines and in really difficult conditions.

It is not what we think of Germany, there was less than a handful of radicals. For the most part the German soldiers were much like you and me. Unfortunate that Hollywood always shows the extremely bad side of the Germany back then. If you get out of Hollywood and read accounts by soldiers in the Germany military, most loved, laughed, cared for family and country...not much unlike the Allied troops. Most thrown into a war they did not want.

As far as inferior machines as to what we have today....you bet man, it was sometimes a shoe string operation at best. Hell, the wildcats that flew off carriers had no compass, fly only while the sun is up so they could see their way back. Now that takes a large set of nuts to do that!!!!

A very different world then what we see today, no doubt.

[AVGWarhawk]

The descriptions of the smell is what always gets me. The combined B.O. of 50 guys who haven't bathed in weeks, mixed with diesel oil, saltwater and urine on clothes that haven't been washed in weeks, and moldy food all in humid and stale air...blah. I wonder if you just became immune to it after a while. Turns your stomach!

That must have been a living hell!!! I would suspect they did not smell themselves after a while. What I find funny are old movies reels showing the crew coming off the boats, smelly and beards, etc. and the girls kissing and hugging them. It's like honey, I have not brushed my teeth or washed my rearend for over 4 weeks. Man, the stench!:dead: Must be very brave women or extremely hard up.

[melnibonian]

It is not what we think of Germany, there was less than a handful of radicals. For the most part the German soldiers were much like you and me. Unfortunate that Hollywood always shows the extremely bad side of the Germany back then. If you get out of Hollywood and read accounts by soldiers in the Germany military, most loved, laughed, cared for family and country...not much unlike the Allied troops. Most thrown into a war they did not want.

As far as inferior machines as to what we have today....you bet man, it was sometimes a shoe string operation at best. Hell, the wildcats that flew off carriers had no compass, fly only while the sun is up so they could see their way back. Now that takes a large set of nuts to do that!!!!

A very different world then what we see today, no doubt.
Oh I do agree in everything you say. All of the operations during WWII look dated by modern standards, especially U-Boat operations. Still the german crews did the best they could (soe ties even more) given the circumstances. I feel they did more than enough for their country in a messy, bloody and horrible war.

[AVGWarhawk]

Yes, the one mans vision(Hilter) was not the vision of all. Didn't the U-boat arm claim to be no part of Nazi Gemany?

[melnibonian]

Didn't the U-boat arm claim to be no part of Nazi Gemany?
In the Iron Coffins and a few other books of the period they do claim that U-Boat crews had nothing to do with the Nazis. That's of course not true. They had as much to do with the Nazi party as any other part of the German Army or the German people (with the exeption of the SS obviously). Some of them (like Luth) were die-hard Nazis were others did not support them. In general though they did tolerate them and up to a point agreed with them. Obviously after Germany entered the war all this became accademic. Their country was at war so there was no question about not doing their bst for the final victory or fight until the bitter end. Thet of course doesn't make them criminals but they share the same level of responsibility like the rest of the German people for what happen in 1939-1945.

[mookiemookie]

Yes, the one mans vision(Hilter) was not the vision of all. Didn't the U-boat arm claim to be no part of Nazi Gemany?

IIRC that they made a special effort to keep the Kriegsmarine, or at least the U-bootwaffe as one of the least politicized arms of the the German armed forces. I know Doenitz never joined the Nazi party. Don't know much about Raeder, though.

In the Iron Coffins and a few other books of the period they do claim that U-Boat crews had nothing to do with the Nazis. That's of course not true. They had as much to do with the Nazi party as any other part of the German Army or the German people (with the exeption of the SS obviously). Some of them (like Luth) were die-hard Nazis were others did not support them. In general though they did tolerate them and up to a point agreed with them. Obviously after Germany entered the war all this became accademic. Their country was at war so there was no question about not doing their bst for the final victory or fight until the bitter end. Thet of course doesn't make them criminals but they share the same level of responsibility like the rest of the German people for what happen in 1939-1945.

True. I would imagine that any branch of the German armed forces at the time had a percentage of true Nazi's in it that mirrored the overall percentage of true Nazis in the German population as a whole. But I think the point of it is that the Nazi doctrine was not ingrained as an integral part of the command structure of the Kriegsmarine. At least not to the degree of other branches of the German military, anyways.

Not trying to make excuses for them, of course.

[melnibonian]

True. I would imagine that any branch of the German armed forces at the time had a percentage of true Nazi's in it that mirrored the overall percentage of true Nazis in the German population as a whole. But I think the point of it is that the Nazi doctrine was not ingrained as an integral part of the command structure of the Kriegsmarine.

Not trying to make excuses for them, of course.
No one is trying to make excuses for Germany, Japan, England, USA and all other countries that took part in this horrible war. They all have their fair share of crimes and responsibility for it (some more than others obviously). All I was saying is that since the country was at war there was no question of Nazi or not. They were professional soldiers and they did all they could to reach the final victory. To be fair the nature of war they were involved in allowed them to be distanced from crimes involved in the Russian Front or with mass deportations etc. hence it was simpler for them as they were fighting a lonely kind of war not to be so stict about Nazi ideology as the Panzer Divisions for example that were fighting in close proximity with the SS.

[mookiemookie]

No one is trying to make excuses for Germany, Japan, England, USA and all other countries that took part in this horrible war. They all have their fair share of crimes and responsibility for it (some more than others obviously). All I was saying is that since the country was at war there was no question of Nazi or not. They were professional soldiers and they did all they could to reach the final victory. To be fair the nature of war they were involved in allowed them to be distanced from crimes involved in the Russian Front or with mass deportations etc. hence it was simpler for them as they were fighting a lonely kind of war not to be so stict about Nazi ideology as the Panzer Divisions for example that were fighting in close proximity with the SS.

Exactly. I remember posting something a while back..."when you're 200m underwater with depth charges raining down on you, political ideology means squat!" :yep:

I think the very nature of the warfare they were waging was also a factor. Despite the fact that merchant sailors were civillians, sinking cargo ships to cut off your enemy's supply chain was a pretty sterile and businesslike thing without much room for political ideologies. It just comes down to pure numbers. Sink more ships than they can build. Deny as many tons of supplies to them as you can. Little room for political expression there.

Much different than razing towns and villages because of the ethnicity/religion of the inhabitants.

[AVGWarhawk]

No one is trying to make excuses for Germany, Japan, England, USA and all other countries that took part in this horrible war. They all have their fair share of crimes and responsibility for it (some more than others obviously). All I was saying is that since the country was at war there was no question of Nazi or not. They were professional soldiers and they did all they could to reach the final victory. To be fair the nature of war they were involved in allowed them to be distanced from crimes involved in the Russian Front or with mass deportations etc. hence it was simpler for them as they were fighting a lonely kind of war not to be so stict about Nazi ideology as the Panzer Divisions for example that were fighting in close proximity with the SS.
Exactly. I remember posting something a while back..."when you're 200m underwater with depth charges raining down on you, political ideology means squat!" :yep:

I think the very nature of the warfare they were waging was also a factor. Despite the fact that merchant sailors were civillians, sinking cargo ships to cut off your enemy's supply chain was a pretty sterile and businesslike thing without much room for political ideologies. It just comes down to pure numbers. Sink more ships than they can build. Deny as many tons of supplies to them as you can. Little room for political expression there.

Much different than razing towns and villages because of the ethnicity/religion of the inhabitants.

Agreed on all points. What is the saying? "You will find no aethiests in a foxhole."

[sonicninja]

Whilst I was off the coast of Scotland last year on a Royal Navy Nuclear Submarine we surfaced for a few hours and I went up the conning tower to get some fresh air and the weather was quite bad, a force 8 I think, and the boat was rolling around quite badly even later on when we dived to 60 meters, and thats on a 5000 ton nuclear submarine, imagine what it was like on a U-Boot 60 years ago.

BTW: Ive been to Scapa Flow on a boat too a couple of years ago and was quite impressed that the German U-Boats got anywhere near the place looking at the terrain and the weather, these men have my respect from one submariner to another, they had it hard, very hard and what they achieved paved a huge cornerstone in todays modern submarine warfare.

Respect your enemys past and present :know:

[Jimbuna]

Whilst I was off the coast of Scotland last year on a Royal Navy Nuclear Submarine we surfaced for a few hours and I went up the conning tower to get some fresh air and the weather was quite bad, a force 8 I think, and the boat was rolling around quite badly even later on when we dived to 60 meters, and thats on a 5000 ton nuclear submarine, imagine what it was like on a U-Boot 60 years ago.

BTW: Ive been to Scapa Flow on a boat too a couple of years ago and was quite impressed that the German U-Boats got anywhere near the place looking at the terrain and the weather, these men have my respect from one submariner to another, they had it hard, very hard and what they achieved paved a huge cornerstone in todays modern submarine warfare.

Respect your enemys past and present :know:

Never a truer word mate :yep: Never had the experience personally (visiting Scapa) but I once watched a documentary and it def looked 'VERY FORBIDDING' :yep:

[Ole]

talking about the smell:
they brushed their teeth evereyday :D showers were onboard, but usable only every 10 days, because they had not enough water which they gained from evaporation.

the disussion about the role of soldiers in world war 2 shows that its impossible to sort them by country and ideology. of course there were a lot of soldiers in the german army who were also Nazis. I don´t want to apologize anyones behavior, i can only tell you about my grandpa, who wanted to become forest ranger when he was young. it would have lasted 4 or 5 years or he could serve in the army for one year. he served and before his year was over, the second world war began. i guess, there were many whoose possibilities were raised only by serving in the army or even joining the Nazi party. These, for me, were poor pigs. Those who identified themselves with the Nazi party, their programm and their ideology, were barbarous men. Its a sad part of the german history. But it developed something good in the german population: we try to avoid wars as good as possible and we are very aware of the government. in so far, i think no one would be able to install a new dictatorship in germany, even not an official "elected" like an other big country has.
a government sending their people into a war, is ruthless and worthless.
i had a lot of discussions with a friend from britain about 9.11 and afghanistan. my education is to solve a problem political, find its sources to achieve a solution. for him, it was only possible to sent troops. long nights of discussions and we were unable to figure out whats right or wrong. finally i´m glad germany didn´t join, as everyhing is only a big "make-me-and-my-pals-rich-war" lead by some greedy governments.
in so far, van Clausewitz is not right any more....
as its said: "war is the terror of the rich, terror is the war of the poor" - wo don´t need either

[Dan0859]

Ole,
"i had a lot of discussions with a friend from britain about 9.11 and afghanistan. my education is to solve a problem political, find its sources to achieve a solution. for him, it was only possible to sent troops. long nights of discussions and we were unable to figure out whats right or wrong. finally i´m glad germany didn´t join, as everyhing is only a big "make-me-and-my-pals-rich-war" lead by some greedy governments."

Here's the problem: How do you reach a political solution with a person/group who's only goal in life is to literally kill you, destroy your culture, society, and country, and impose their religion and views on you and the rest of the world? The source of the problem is that from their point of view, there's no compromise possible. I'm in Iraq, I've been here for over 2 years. I've seen enough first-hand to know something of which I speak.
It's ironic that you consider the Nazis "barbarous men", yet you apparently believe the right thing to have done after 9.11 was to reach some sort of political compromise. The 9.11 attacks weren't barbaric? People being forced to jump out the window, to certain death, to avoid being roasted alive, isn't barbaric? Think for a moment what it must have been like for them, being forced to make that choice. If that's not barbaric, I don't know what is.
We're supposed to sit down, negotiate, and reach a political compromise? Polical compromise didn't work with Hitler, either, did it?.
As far as "a government sending their people into a war, is ruthless and worthless.", Britian and France were the ones who declared war on Germany, not the other way around. So, by your definition, the British and French governments were ruthless and worthless.
Please, think about what you're saying, and what would be the logical outcome of your views. Throughout history, there have always been people/groups who wanted to impose their views on others.
I'll grant you, democracy is a sometimes messy and inefficient form of government, but it's the best one so far, for protecting the rights of it's members. Trying to reach a political compromise with dictators and tyrants is just not possible. Just remember, the only reason you can have these discussions with your British friend, and post your views here, is because of democratic goverments. Do you really want to give up those rights?

[Subwolf]

I can't believe you guys, feeling so sorry for the German U-boat crews...

But none of you even mention the heroic civilian men and women who sailed in the merchant fleet during the war, those who gave their lives to save your country from the nazi's, those who sailed for up to five years under a constant threat of getting killed by a torpedo, and could never get a good night's sleep while at sea.

They are the real heroes of the Atlantic war.

Of course it was tough for the Germans too, but remember...they started the war, they wanted it to happen.

[mookiemookie]

I can't believe you guys, feeling so sorry for the German U-boat crews...

But none of you even mention the heroic civilian men and women who sailed in the merchant fleet during the war, those who gave their lives to save your country from the nazi's, those who sailed for up to five years under a constant threat of getting killed by a torpedo, and could never get a good night's sleep while at sea.

They are the real heroes of the Atlantic war.

Of course it was tough for the Germans too, but remember...they started the war, they wanted it to happen.
Agreed on that point. The merchant sailors were men of valor and bravery, and no one is taking away from their deeds. But to say that the average U-boat sailor isn't worthy of some measure of respect is wrong, I think.

Perhaps this might express it better than I can. They're the words of USN Captain Edward Beach, from the introduction of Iron Coffins:

"'Madness!' cries Werner, and it was madness. But there were heroes, too, who deserve admiration even though their cause was wrong and, therefore, their sacrifice was worthless. No one can fault the warrior who believes in his country so strongly that he dies for it. This ought to permit these brave spirits to lie in peace, secure in the world's regard for them and their memory. Madness though it was, these were the flower of young German manhood, unfortunately - but not to their own discredit - early imbued with a warped ideal of how to achieve German destiny. They ought not to bear too harsh criticism, considering the Treaty of Versailles is now hardly considered an ideal document. Furthermore, they were a group unsullied by the cancer which afflicted the leading body politic. Beacuase their leaders told them so, they believed that if they fought desperately, they might save their country from the disaster plainly grinding in from every side. They expected death, and most of them found it; but they fought hard all the same, and they carpeted the ocean floor with their bodies."

[AirborneCZ]

o matter what we think of the second world war and Germany I feel we should respect the level of professionalism, endurance and (unfortunatelly) ruthlessness of the U-Boat crews.


of course. I might be new to sub sims but this is something i know of muay thai, my army's IFOR missions etc...

its called warriors respect.

same as I witnessed at the Wehrmacht/SS WWII graveyard where during D-Day celebrations I have found flowers by GI's vets at Michael Wittmann's grave (!) stating among others i.e. "From one soldier to another".

That pretty much says it all. (for NAVY guys= M.W. was the best German and World's Panzer Ace ever)


it has no relation what we think of Germany koz we (in Europe beside Germany) could now think about young US guys in Iraq (no flaming please, I have my deepest and greatest respect for all of them and have many friends among them!!)...

my point is just to make very clear distinction between front line soldiers and politicians.... I guess you know what I mean...

[Subwolf]

Well I play SH3 because it's a good strategy game, but I don't go too far and believe that the U-boat crews were the heroes.

I read a book by a commander of a British destroyer escort, and I totally agree with his words when he could confirm a U-boat kill, but I think those words are too strong for this forum.

SH3 is just a game, but as far as the German U-boat crews are concerned: :down:

[CCIP]

I'm personally in it for that whole 'feel'.

And I think it's too simplistic to say something along the lines of ':up:' or ':down:' about U-boat crews. You have to realize that they were people called up to fight in a total war. There was a lot of good and bad guys on all sides of the war, but in a battle 'good' and 'bad' is simply a matter which side you happen to be on. A U-boat sinking your ship is as bad as a ship sinking your U-boat.

I'd never be particularly interested in war were there not a sharply controversial humanistic aspect to it. I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, but I'm fascinated by people pushed to the limit - and not in the sport-like sense of it, either - but totally in a life-and-death sort of way. And the Battle of the Atlantic certainly did that. It's one thing to judge war sitting at a desk at home, and another thing to judge it with your finger on the trigger of a weapon aimed at an enemy.

I'd never confuse a game with reality, of course, but things like that are always in the back of my mind when I play wargames. Likewise, some imagery in SHIII is amazing food-for-thought for thinking about the conditions as they really were.

[Subwolf]

I'm personally in it for that whole 'feel'.
And I think it's too simplistic to say something along the lines of ':up:' or ':down:' about U-boat crews. You have to realize that they were people called up to fight in a total war.

They were brainwashed by their sick leader, they were ready to conquer the whole world :roll:

I lost five family members in the Atlantic during the war, their ships sunk by them. That's the reason for my opinion about this.

[AirborneCZ]

I read a book by a commander of a British destroyer escort, and I totally agree with his words when he could confirm a U-boat kill, but I think those words are too strong for this forum.

Bing it on!

Surprise us??

"Bunch of Bosches got what they deserved" ? or "Another scum of the world is gone."???


Have you ever realized that those guys dying in both german subs/british merchants/us DDs/everywhere else were mostly 18+ guys that never really got a chance to understand any of this $hit????

I guess not koz most of the guys like you never seen guy dying/ or even dead body which is perhaps good thing but still leaves you behind kind of psychologic curtain.... I was unfortunate enough to go behind it.

All-volunteer army is a gift of today's world.....

[AVGWarhawk]

I really have not found anyone calling the u-boat crews as heros. The discussion is about what they saw and experienced. That is all. Nothing more, nothing less. As the victor countries sit in their high horse, I was only pointing out that these men in the boats and in the trenches were not unlike the victors. They had wives, family, homes and sense of being a countrymen to their land. The thread was about the great spans of ocean and the undertaking of being ordered to sink Allied vessels basically on a shoe string of technology. The same as what Allied forces had to content with. One cannot sit back and wonder how any of the opposing forces did what they did with by todays standards would be cavemen tools. How it turned into who is a hero and who is not is beyond me. But I guess that what open forums are about and all opinions are taken, mulled over and thought about. Like I said from the start, imagine yourself in the middle of the Atlantic in a boat that is already half sunk, a radio that might work, might not, a compass that is so-so and depending on a clear night to see the stars so you could figure out with in a few hundred miles where you are on the planet. That is all this thread was to be.

[AirborneCZ]

They were brainwashed by their sick leader, they were ready to conquer the whole world

First, Im sorry about your family members, my family has its "war-losses" too and so did several hundereds thousands of my countrymen, but still they were conscripts if you know what is that.

Im not defending WWII Germans for Christ sake, my nation was bleeding under them, but its the same bull$hit like saying that RAF (and my uncle was a RAF bomber crew member) & USAF bombing of German cities (with more civilian victims inflicted than by Little Boy&Fat Man in Japan that actually stopped the war) has shortned the war....

[AirborneCZ]

I really have not found anyone calling the u-boat crews as heros.

well anyway discussion has moved that way. And I have the guts to call them HEROS koz Im not tied with some politcal correctness issues.

As much as the USN crews, as much as RAF &USAF & Luftwaffe crews & pilots, as much as anyone who didnt fight that war because of stupid ideologies but simply because they were doing their best to survive and did extremely well under extreme conditions.

You can hate someone in the heat of the battle, but you gotta respect them if they fight fair. That of course counts only for some. On all sides. And all conflicts. Up to now.

[CCIP]

Alright, that's fair enough then. On a personal level, holding some bitterness at lost family members is acceptable. And I read further up and definitely agree with you on the point of the merchant seamen, they definitely deserve praise above all.

But I think the side they fought on shouldn't be dismissed outright. 'Heroes' might not be a totally appropriate term depending on how you define heroes, and certainly I don't think sinking Allied merchant ships is something you want to take as an example of heroism to future generations. It's not. But some of the things done on U-boats might be far more admirable, if you can look past the side of the war they fought on.

I'd be the last to bring Nazi forces up as heroes of course. To put it in likewise-personal perspective, I was born in the city of Leningrad - that should say something about what I feel about the war. But you can't look at it as some war machine that was composed of completely brainwashed millions. It was not. It was composed of people. Again, this is also very personal to me, being of mixed Russo-German-Finnish ancestry and with my family having lost a lot of kin in the war in all sorts of awful ways - from dying of wounds, to dying of hunger, to dying in a concentration camp.

I'm completely and utterly opposed to the 'demonization' of even the highest Nazi leaders in that way. If we don't acknowledge what they did as part of the fabric of humanity, then we've learned nothing from the war. Even the worst enemies of our sense of humanity have something to teach us about being human. Forget U-boats, crewed mostly by 20 year olds who couldn't begin to make sense of what they were getting into, nor had any logical way of avoiding it. Cursing them on the battlefield is acceptable, cursing them some 60-odd years after the fact is just plain rude. As long as the survivors acknowledge that their country's cause was criminal, they deserve none of this dehumanization today. And if they do, then so does every other wartime submariner in history.

[Subwolf]

Well AVGWarhawk...

This just confirms that you got little knowledge about U-boats. Half sunk? Okey maybe if it's damaged. Otherwise a U-boat is a much more seaworthy and safer vessel than a surface ship...

But again, I'm really surprised that some of you can really honor the U-boat crews. No thanks :nope:

[Ole]

Here's the problem: How do you reach a political solution with a person/group who's only goal in life is to literally kill you, destroy your culture, society, and country, and impose their religion and views on you and the rest of the world? The source of the problem is that from their point of view, there's no compromise possible. I'm in Iraq, I've been here for over 2 years. I've seen enough first-hand to know something of which I speak.
your problem is a war in a country, where terrorist from all over the world travel to, to fight against you. for me, these terrorists can all be erased, got no problem with that. but if you think this is the only way it goes, well, your opinion. the process going on in the arabic countries, is a process like it has been in europe over 500 years ago. for me, regarding their society structures, they are far behind us, but they overhaul. this process is more comprehensive than you might think. in the history of europe, many wars have been fought by religious causes, it was part of our history to achieve what we got today. our problem today is: we sell them weapons, train them in terror-tactics, financiate them and finally wonder when they turn against us. thats the point we should think about.
i say, leave them alone, don´t help them, sell them anything, let them pass their cultural developments on their one. but this is much more complex as to explain here in short form.

It's ironic that you consider the Nazis "barbarous men", yet you apparently believe the right thing to have done after 9.11 was to reach some sort of political compromise. The 9.11 attacks weren't barbaric? People being forced to jump out the window, to certain death, to avoid being roasted alive, isn't barbaric? Think for a moment what it must have been like for them, being forced to make that choice. If that's not barbaric, I don't know what is.
read again, i didn´t say what you are trying to assume.


We're supposed to sit down, negotiate, and reach a political compromise? Polical compromise didn't work with Hitler, either, did it?.
study the history, and you´ll find out, that in the beginning of the expansion politics of the Nazis, their neighbours neglected political sanctions. the only action was a condemn in the league of nations. thats not consequent and it is like today. the UN does realy not condemn any countries actions or even impose a sanction.


As far as "a government sending their people into a war, is ruthless and worthless.", Britian and France were the ones who declared war on Germany, not the other way around. So, by your definition, the British and French governments were ruthless and worthless.
you only read want you want. i wrote every country. not only british and french. a war is always battled on the back of the underclass, thats the point i was talking about.

Please, think about what you're saying, and what would be the logical outcome of your views. Throughout history, there have always been people/groups who wanted to impose their views on others.
I'll grant you, democracy is a sometimes messy and inefficient form of government, but it's the best one so far, for protecting the rights of it's members. Trying to reach a political compromise with dictators and tyrants is just not possible. Just remember, the only reason you can have these discussions with your British friend, and post your views here, is because of democratic goverments. Do you really want to give up those rights?
you make me angry, you should become a advocate. i didn´t wrote anything about abolishing democracy, so why do you say that? Yoi say a political compromise with dictators is impossible? so why did your government work together with saddam hussein against iran since 1979? i hope you know about it.

to come back to the main statement: a war is always bad, for the country attacking, defending, it doesn´t matter. i think every country should always try to prevent a war as good as possible. actually this is not happening today, that is sad.
and please stop assuming such bull****, thx.

[CCIP]

But again, I'm really surprised that some of you can really honor the U-boat crews. No thanks :nope:
I think you're still a bit touchy on just what we mean by that, I don't think most of us 'honor' them in the way you'd assume. Chill out. None of us are building a cult of U-boat worship, I think :)

I'll put it this way - I'll respect any good soldier, not because of what they fight for, but in a pure sense of military honour. It's an idea that's been around since the most ancient times you know, doesn't even have to be humanist in the sense that I take it.

At the same time, if by some chance I lived in World War II, and I ended up near a U-boat with some potent weapon? You bet I'd be trying to sink it.

[Dan0859]

First,
Somebody please tell me how to make those boxes you use when you quote someone.
Second, I had a friend of mine who served in the merchant marine during WW2. He survived a number of attacks, including one that sank the ship he was on. What was interesting to me, was that he made a definite distinction between the war and the German U-boat sailors. His view was that the sailors were doing the job they were ordered to do, and he never expressed anything but respect for them. I think it's possible be against Hitler and what he stood for, yet to respect the average sailor (or soldier) who was trying to do the job he was given.

[Jimbuna]

First,
Somebody please tell me how to make those boxes you use when you quote someone.
Second, I had a friend of mine who served in the merchant marine during WW2. He survived a number of attacks, including one that sank the ship he was on. What was interesting to me, was that he made a definite distinction between the war and the German U-boat sailors. His view was that the sailors were doing the job they were ordered to do, and he never expressed anything but respect for them. I think it's possible be against Hitler and what he stood for, yet to respect the average sailor (or soldier) who was trying to do the job he was given.

The first thing I did was click my mouse on the small box marked "quote" at the bottom right corner of your post :up:

BTW colleagues this is an interesting thread...but I fear there will be no conclusion that will be satisfactory to all contributors :nope:

[AVGWarhawk]

Well AVGWarhawk...

This just confirms that you got little knowledge about U-boats. Half sunk? Okey maybe if it's damaged. Otherwise a U-boat is a much more seaworthy and safer vessel than a surface ship...

But again, I'm really surprised that some of you can really honor the U-boat crews. No thanks :nope:

Ah ha! Subwolf, looking at the u-boat and it's characteristics can be looked at like a glass of water, is the glass half full or half empty. In comparison, is the u-boat or submarine half afloat or half sunk? You be the judge. Maybe sunk is not the proper work, how about submerged? Let look at it, the tanks were filled with water producing close to negative boyancy or the inability to float. Once the additional water was added to the tanks the negative boyancy was enough to sink the u-boat or submerge it. So in my opinion, the u-boat was a vessel that was an half sinking vessel with the ability to create positive boyancy to float. This is what I ment by half sunk vessel. You have to admit one turn of a valve or two and the vessel is sunk or submerged in under 30 seconds.

As far as honoring the crew, the honor and respect was for how they accomplished the task with what little mechanical knowledge of engineering we enjoy today. This also applies to the Allies. This was the only thought provoking question I proposed on this thread.

Now onward and upward. I had three family members in the war. Edward Schultheis was a torpedo mechanic and aircraft mechanic in the PTO aboard aircraft carriers. He is still living today. Jean Schltheis was a WAVE and in charge of 35 nurses in the PTO. Charles Schultheis was a B-17 pilot with the 94th Squadron, 410th bombardment group. Charles was shot down over Kiel Germany June, 13th 1943. Guess what, he was going after the sub pens. That day he was the lead ship and protocal stated the lead ship was to have all rated officers. Charles was put in the tail gunners seat. This was his first and last mission. Do I feel anamosity towards the Germans, no. Sure, I would love to have my Uncle around but this was a different time and place. Over time, you learn to understand and accept. Below is the State Departments account of June, 13th 1943.


The Demise of "Klo-Kay"



"Klo-Kay," aircraft #42-29715, was one of nine ships lost by the 94th Bomb Group on June 12, 1943. All aboard were killed in action with the exception of 410th C.O., Capt. Bolling H. Rawlinson, who miraculously survived, was captured and finished the war in captivity. In October of 1945 he was interviewed by Army Intelligence and this is the essence of his story.

Target time was approximately 0810. About 20 minutes prior to that time heavy German fighter attacks began. The #2[inboard port side] engine was set on fire, and the prop feathered. Shortly thereafter, the ball turret gunner [S/Sgt. Harold S. Hilts of Anthony, Kansas] reported that he was being forced to abandon his post due to extreme heat and smoke. Capt. Arthur J. Hebert was sent to report on the condition of the ship [Hebert, the pilot, was flying in the left hand seat, while Rawlinson occupied the right hand seat as command pilot].He immediately returned with word that fire was advancing through the bomb bay. Rawlinson rang the bail-out alarm, but the intercom was not functioning. All the while German fighters continued to attack. Capt. Hebert and the top turret gunner [T/Sgt. Edward H. Cameron of Mexia, Texas], both wearing chest type parachutes, headed through the catwalk toward the nose hatch. Flying at 28,500 feet, Rawlinson made a turn off of the I.P. toward the target with the intention of releasing bombs from the cockpit prior to abandoning ship. Short of bombing-point the plane exploded. Rawlinson, wearing a seat-type parachute, was blown clear, deployed his parachute, and quickly lost consciousness. On the way down, floating in and out of consciousness, he observed one other parachute from an unknown source. He landed at a spot approximately four miles WSW of Kiel, was taken into custody and transported to hospital along with an American sergeant from another aircraft.

While in captivity, another prisoner reported to Rawlinson that he had observed one man bail out of "Klo Kay", but the man became caught on the tail assembly prior to the explosion. In light of the enemy fire hitting the armor plate behind him and the number of bullets passing through the cabin and out the windshield, Rawlinson surmised that men in the rear of the plane must have taken heavy casualties prior to the explosion. At any rate, all would have perished in the explosion.

Rawlinson was eventually assigned to Stalagluft III, where he remained until war’s end.

Source: Hq. AAF Redistribution Station No. 2, Miami District AAFFDC, Intelligence and Security Division, Miami Beach, Florida. 17 October 1945. Document and photos provided by Mr. C. Gossweiler, nephew of 2nd Lt. Charles Schultheis, who
was killed in the action described.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/94-klo-kayhebertcrewusnarp.jpg
That is my uncle in the middle with this hat off to the side, squating in the middle.
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/cid_788CC9D9-C222-464C-B6FE-F986E0A.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/cid_871CE583-3A05-4F5A-B719-A20FB36.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/cid_5184FDCC-000B-4E88-82AD-8B02777.jpg

Here we have the German records of the night before June 13th 1943, the day of and the day after. I also have several pictures of the German pilots that had flown against the 410th on June 13th. Unfortunate they were sent to me as a Rich Text Format and I do not know how to upload to photobucket. The point is, I investigated, learned, question and came to grips with how my Uncle was killed at the age of 22 over Kiel, Germany. I have learned to accept that this was a different time and place in history and that both sides, although had some diabolical individuals, also had some very human individuals that loved, laughed and cared for family. I do not sit on a high horse and point my finger at Germany and what happened. I accepted what was called "duty" weather right or wrong for both sides.

My Uncle remains were taken and buried in England. His remains were then disentured and move to Flushing Cemetery, Flushing NY. His American Flag that draped his casket is flown every Memorial Day over the Cemetery. After I had dug further into my Uncles past, I found out his military headstone had the date of KIA as June 13th 1942. This was less than 4 years ago. I contacted the State Department for Veteran Affairs and they gladly had another headstone created with the correct date and shipped it to Flushing. This was all done at no expense to me. The stone was rededicated to the Lord and the record set straight. To me, this was the one best thing I could do to honor my Uncle and all others on both sides that had family caught up in the conflict. As a result, I'm better able to understand and accept both friend and foe and realize both side had some very human people...not much unlike you and me.

[Dan0859]

First,
Somebody please tell me how to make those boxes you use when you quote someone.
Second, I had a friend of mine who served in the merchant marine during WW2. He survived a number of attacks, including one that sank the ship he was on. What was interesting to me, was that he made a definite distinction between the war and the German U-boat sailors. His view was that the sailors were doing the job they were ordered to do, and he never expressed anything but respect for them. I think it's possible be against Hitler and what he stood for, yet to respect the average sailor (or soldier) who was trying to do the job he was given.

The first thing I did was click my mouse on the small box marked "quote" at the bottom right corner of your post :up:

BTW colleagues this is an interesting thread...but I fear there will be no conclusion that will be satisfactory to all contributors :nope:

Well, let's see what happens...

Cool!!! Thanks, Jim!

[AVGWarhawk]

Dan,

Open forum is for discussion like this in hopes to enlighten all who participate, weather any or all points are agreed upon, this is what separate us from the animals and keeps us at the top of the food chain.:up:

Although some responses will be inflamatory, that is to be expected in discussions like this, I urge all to fire away and bring some deep though to any question imposed.

[Dan0859]

Here's the problem: How do you reach a political solution with a person/group who's only goal in life is to literally kill you, destroy your culture, society, and country, and impose their religion and views on you and the rest of the world? The source of the problem is that from their point of view, there's no compromise possible. I'm in Iraq, I've been here for over 2 years. I've seen enough first-hand to know something of which I speak.
your problem is a war in a country, where terrorist from all over the world travel to, to fight against you. for me, these terrorists can all be erased, got no problem with that. but if you think this is the only way it goes, well, your opinion. the process going on in the arabic countries, is a process like it has been in europe over 500 years ago. for me, regarding their society structures, they are far behind us, but they overhaul. this process is more comprehensive than you might think. in the history of europe, many wars have been fought by religious causes, it was part of our history to achieve what we got today. our problem today is: we sell them weapons, train them in terror-tactics, financiate them and finally wonder when they turn against us. thats the point we should think about.
i say, leave them alone, don´t help them, sell them anything, let them pass their cultural developments on their one. but this is much more complex as to explain here in short form.

I agree, leave them alone, don't help them, and don't sell them anything. But, they won't leave us alone. For 25 years, they've been attacking the West. They've said publicly, many times, that their goal is to destroy Western civilization, so Islam can become the universal religion and law throughout the world. Yes, it's terrible that religion has been used to justify so much war, death, and destruction over the centuries. Does the fact that this happened in Europe 500 years ago, mean that we must accept these attacks today?

It's ironic that you consider the Nazis "barbarous men", yet you apparently believe the right thing to have done after 9.11 was to reach some sort of political compromise. The 9.11 attacks weren't barbaric? People being forced to jump out the window, to certain death, to avoid being roasted alive, isn't barbaric? Think for a moment what it must have been like for them, being forced to make that choice. If that's not barbaric, I don't know what is.
read again, i didn´t say what you are trying to assume.

This is what you said: Nazis are "barbarous men". I agree 100%. Also, you said earlier, that "i had a lot of discussions with a friend from britain about 9.11 and afghanistan. my education is to solve a problem political, find its sources to achieve a solution." I'm not trying to assume anything. Either the 9.11 attack was barbaric, or it wasn't. I'm pretty sure you'd agree it was. So, my point is, you condemn Nazism as barbaric, yet you say we should solve the 9.11 attack politically, find its sources to achieve a solution. Sorry, but I don't think it's possible in this case. We know what their solution is, they've already told us.


We're supposed to sit down, negotiate, and reach a political compromise? Polical compromise didn't work with Hitler, either, did it?.
study the history, and you´ll find out, that in the beginning of the expansion politics of the Nazis, their neighbours neglected political sanctions. the only action was a condemn in the league of nations. thats not consequent and it is like today. the UN does realy not condemn any countries actions or even impose a sanction.

I do study history and what history shows, is that engaging Hitler in the political process didn't work. As far as other countries neglecting political sanctions, that's a "what if" scenario. Who knows what would have happened then? I agree, in today's world, the UN is often ineffective in dealing with these problems.


As far as "a government sending their people into a war, is ruthless and worthless.", Britian and France were the ones who declared war on Germany, not the other way around. So, by your definition, the British and French governments were ruthless and worthless.
you only read want you want. i wrote every country. not only british and french. a war is always battled on the back of the underclass, thats the point i was talking about.

I'm only reading what you wrote. Again, "a government sending their people into a war, is ruthless and worthless.". Now, you say every country, not just British and French. So, you're saying every government that sends it's people into war is ruthless and worthless? Because America sent people to war against Germany, America is ruthless and worthless? "A war is always battled on the back of the underclass, that was the point I was talking about.". Well, it's not what you said. Also, define "underclass". My grandfather was a successful businessman. His sons fought in WW2, and one of my uncles is buried in France. My father was a successful businessman, and both my older brothers fought in Vietnam. I have a university degree and a successful career. My oldest son was in the Marines, and my middle son is in the Marines as we speak. Especially now, given that the Western military forces are volunteers, I don't understand the point you're trying to make. No one is being forced into military service.

Please, think about what you're saying, and what would be the logical outcome of your views. Throughout history, there have always been people/groups who wanted to impose their views on others.
I'll grant you, democracy is a sometimes messy and inefficient form of government, but it's the best one so far, for protecting the rights of it's members. Trying to reach a political compromise with dictators and tyrants is just not possible. Just remember, the only reason you can have these discussions with your British friend, and post your views here, is because of democratic goverments. Do you really want to give up those rights?
you make me angry, you should become a advocate. i didn´t wrote anything about abolishing democracy, so why do you say that? Yoi say a political compromise with dictators is impossible? so why did your government work together with saddam hussein against iran since 1979? i hope you know about it.

Why do I make you angry, and why does that mean I should become an advocate? I didn't say you wrote anything about abolishing democracy. What I said is that if you simply give in to dictators and tyrants, you lose your rights. Yes, we supported Saddam against the Iranians in the Iran-Iraq War. This was after Iran assaulted and seized our embassy and took our citizens hostage. We also supported Stalin against Hitler, even after Stalin killed millions of people in his own country, before the war even started. In both cases, we shared a common foe. This is why people say that politics makes strange bedfellows.

to come back to the main statement: a war is always bad, for the country attacking, defending, it doesn´t matter. i think every country should always try to prevent a war as good as possible. actually this is not happening today, that is sad.
and please stop assuming such bull****, thx.

I agree that war is bad. It sucks. It sucks especially for the civilians caught in the middle. Sometimes, however, the alternatives are worse. Finally, why the profanity? Why are my views and opinions bull****? The only thing I did was to disagree with some of what you wrote.
Dan

[AVGWarhawk]

Dan/Ole,

You both have valid points and all good ones. But would you not agree that political solutions are always the best but sometimes the breakdown in communication and wants of each country far out exceed the expectation of each and the only answer is a military response?

[Dan0859]

AVGWarhawk,
That's a very good way of putting it. Certainly, I respect everyone's right to his opinion, and his right to express it. I do agree with both of you, that war is something to be avoided. My point is that avoiding war at any and all cost is a recipe for the oppression of the weak by the strong. Therefore, even though war is bad, sometimes it's necessary. The fact that we wish to avoid war, as you say, doesn't guarantee our wishes will come true.
I do object to sweeping generalizations and absolute statements, especially when unsupported by any facts. I also object to profanity, insults or personal attacks when one person disagrees with another. I'm more than happy to discuss or debate most any topic, but all who take part need to observe basic rules of civility and conduct.
Just my opinion, but that's how I see things.
Thanks,
Dan

[Kuzz]

I'd just like to thank AVGWarhawk for one of the best inputs I have read thus far. That is a very realistic, mature and probably the grim reality that war is. I look up to people like you that can, altough having lost family members, say that you understand what made you loose a family member, and not just take the easy way out by pointing fingers.

Hating the enemy does not defeat him, understanding him does.

Take Hartenstein and the Laconia catastrophy... Whom was right at that point? The bombers that attacked his uboat, Hartenstein whom at other times killed allied soldiers or... no one? The latter is probably the most reasonable explenation, since a war, or a single event, is far to complex to just judge as "good" and "bad". As the same with the U-boat war, a war in which all our scandinavic countries lost men as well, even Swedes whom at other theaters were neutral. I still don't blame everything on the German U-boat commanders... they did what they had to do. I'm just glad the lost the war.

[mookiemookie]

Now onward and upward.... <snip> ...As a result, I'm better able to understand and accept both friend and foe and realize both side had some very human people...not much unlike you and me.

Man, what a great post. Here's to the bravery of your uncle and his sacrifice. I will make sure I lift my glass to him tonight. (company Christmas party, so there will be plenty of opportunities to!:()1:)

[AVGWarhawk]

AVGWarhawk,
That's a very good way of putting it. Certainly, I respect everyone's right to his opinion, and his right to express it. I do agree with both of you, that war is something to be avoided. My point is that avoiding war at any and all cost is a recipe for the oppression of the weak by the strong. Therefore, even though war is bad, sometimes it's necessary. The fact that we wish to avoid war, as you say, doesn't guarantee our wishes will come true.
I do object to sweeping generalizations and absolute statements, especially when unsupported by any facts. I also object to profanity, insults or personal attacks when one person disagrees with another. I'm more than happy to discuss or debate most any topic, but all who take part need to observe basic rules of civility and conduct.
Just my opinion, but that's how I see things.
Thanks,
Dan

Dan,
Agreed on personal attacks. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Individual thought makes us individuals, unique in our own way. I often find that those who engage in personal attacks and profanity have been corned and are fighting their way out. In what light anyone sees someones opinion as flawed must open their minds to the possiblities presented before them, digest it and analyze it's potential. It is at this point this person should make logical, analylitical conclusions or retort. Always with a civilized tone. Your opinion is as much sought after as anyone elses who wish to participate.

[AVGWarhawk]

Now onward and upward.... <snip> ...As a result, I'm better able to understand and accept both friend and foe and realize both side had some very human people...not much unlike you and me.

Man, what a great post. Here's to the bravery of your uncle and his sacrifice. I will make sure I lift my glass to him tonight. (company Christmas party, so there will be plenty of opportunities to!:()1:)

Mookie,

Thanks for kind words. Digging into my Uncles endeavours during the war was quite a trip and what a trip is was. It definitley enlighted me in both corners and made me a better person for it. During my quest I encountered many who were their and willing to provide information. Both German and American alike. You will often read of the old warriors from both sides meeting after 50 years since a battle between the two had taken place. THEY ALWAYS LEAVE AS FRIENDS AND STAY IN CONTACT. This is where the maturity stands in. Two warriors, young in age, willing to kill each other for sake of country over 50 years ago. Today, they understand, have grown wiser and become damn good friends. Once again, proving that both side were human and I'm sure just wanted to spend a night in pub having a good time. I think I would be hard pressed to find two on opposing sides with the common bond of WW2 that would not come away from a meeting not feeling like they have made a friend.

[AVGWarhawk]

I'd just like to thank AVGWarhawk for one of the best inputs I have read thus far. That is a very realistic, mature and probably the grim reality that war is. I look up to people like you that can, altough having lost family members, say that you understand what made you loose a family member, and not just take the easy way out by pointing fingers.

Hating the enemy does not defeat him, understanding him does.

Take Hartenstein and the Laconia catastrophy... Whom was right at that point? The bombers that attacked his uboat, Hartenstein whom at other times killed allied soldiers or... no one? The latter is probably the most reasonable explenation, since a war, or a single event, is far to complex to just judge as "good" and "bad". As the same with the U-boat war, a war in which all our scandinavic countries lost men as well, even Swedes whom at other theaters were neutral. I still don't blame everything on the German U-boat commanders... they did what they had to do. I'm just glad the lost the war.

Kuzz,

Losing a family member is terrible specifically if it was done by auto acident or something of the like. If ones life is given in the line of duty and in protection of the freedoms offered then it is not in vain. Today, my wife and two daughters live a free country without oppression. It was this ultimate sacrifice of my Uncle and MANY like him that afforded this great pleasure to my family. This goes for every country weather the aggressor or non-aggressor whos sons and daughters gave it their all in the best way they knew how. We have to remember these were young men, 19-22 years old full of piss and vinegar. Today the piss and vinegar has all but gone and a general understanding is present. Again, the human factor for both sides.

As far as winning the war. Yes the Allieds won the war. But in hindsight the Germans won as well. Germany could not go on with the leadership of Hitler. Hitler had great power/persuasion over the German people. He used it in the wrong way. Do you realize what a great nation Germany would be today(not that it is not a great nation today) if this power Hitler had was used for common good? Just the sheer technology the Germans had developed alone would have made it a great nation back in 1939. Jet engines, flying wings, U-boats, rocket motors, the list goes on. Just that alone shows what a nation it could have been during these years. Now we understand why the mad dash to take Berlin because we knew there was plenty more technology to be had. If this technology was used and shared with the great thinkers of the time we might even be using hover cars today or some other out of this world technology. I often chuckle looking at the technology we have today was a result of German engineering. Not to say we did not have our day in the sun!!!

Here is a case and point. In the Pacific, the Americans found a almost intact Japanese zero. It was taken, put back together and used as a trainer. It was also analyzed for it weakness and its potential. As a result, the Grumman Hellcat was created. The Hellcat defeated the zero in just about every engagement once it hit the theater of operation. German V rockets and the technology has given us the Space Shuttle as we know it today. If all the technologies were pulled together at this time, man, wonder what we would be flying around in today or driving to the super market....

[mookiemookie]

Now onward and upward.... <snip> ...As a result, I'm better able to understand and accept both friend and foe and realize both side had some very human people...not much unlike you and me.
Man, what a great post. Here's to the bravery of your uncle and his sacrifice. I will make sure I lift my glass to him tonight. (company Christmas party, so there will be plenty of opportunities to!:()1:)
Mookie,

Thanks for kind words. Digging into my Uncles endeavours during the war was quite a trip and what a trip is was. It definitley enlighted me in both corners and made me a better person for it. During my quest I encountered many who were their and willing to provide information. Both German and American alike. You will often read of the old warriors from both sides meeting after 50 years since a battle between the two had taken place. THEY ALWAYS LEAVE AS FRIENDS AND STAY IN CONTACT. This is where the maturity stands in. Two warriors, young in age, willing to kill each other for sake of country over 50 years ago. Today, they understand, have grown wiser and become damn good friends. Once again, proving that both side were human and I'm sure just wanted to spend a night in pub having a good time. I think I would be hard pressed to find two on opposing sides with the common bond of WW2 that would not come away from a meeting not feeling like they have made a friend.

My grandfather was a tank mechanic in the Battle of the Bulge. He's passed on now but from what I remember him telling me when I was young, his unit was one of the first to come along the concentration camps. Anyways, he luckily survived the war and came back home to Ohio. A few years later, a German man about his age moved in down the street. They became friendly, and it came out later that his neighbor was at the Battle of the Bulge on the German side. From what I was told, they would sit on the porch and drink beer and trade stories.

As you said, it illustrates the point that soldiers are human beings, no matter what side they fight on.

[AVGWarhawk]

Here here, Mookie! I would have loved to talked to your Grandfather. I bet he was simply horrified with the camps. No doubt in his young mind such atrocity could not be happening but how could he deny this when it was laid out before him? The camps were abyssmal. Simply evil. I'm really at a loss for words when it comes the camps. I do, however, believe that many of the German people did not know this was going on. Once liberated the civilians were presented the camps and told to bury the remains. Fitting at the time. Germany still lives under this dark blanket of history. Several camps remain standing as a grim reminder. But, as you stated, a German miliitary man from the Bulge moved in down the street from you Grandfather, became friends and shot the **it over a few cans of, I hope, good German beer! Truly awesome! Man, if you knew then what you know now and spend your time studing things from WW2, what questions you would have. Not only that but answers right from the horses mouth!!!! If you get a chance, as any family members for pictures or letters from you Grandfather that might still be around. You will find out some amazing family history. I asked my mom about Uncle Chip and did she pull out pictures. I have his wings that he received when he became a fully commissioned B-17 pilot. I have letters and a neckless he mailed over from England to my mom when she was a little girl. I have made a shadow box of all the she had hidden away concerning Chippy, as she called him when she was little. My other Uncle, Ed is still alive in NJ. He is quite old at this point and not quite there anymore. He talked about the war with me once. Never again did we speak of it. He was so mentally affected and this was a dark period in his life. He enlisted at age 17. Lied to get in. My grandmother offered him a new car if he would not go but he went anyway. He was an aircraft mechanic on carriers and also worked on torpedos. Since the war he has never been on an airplane. He just won't fly. The hot dog pilots took it right out of him!!!! He is great man and I have deep respect for him. He has his brother Purple Heart framed and hanging in his home. The loss of Chip just did him in. Anyway, he married my Aunt Jean who was a WAVE. She looked after 35 nurses in the PTO. She was a tough old bird and got that way because you put 35 cute nurses with thousands of GI....you got a problem on your hands LOL. Family history man, ask the elders in your crowd what they have and you just might be surprised.

[Dowly]

@Subwolf

I really cant believe you think that way. Hitler started the war, not the soldiers. I dont like the war in Iraq so should I hate the whole America because of it, instead of just hating Mr. Bush?

The soldiers didnt plan the killings of the Jews, so dont blame them about it. And before you say, that the soldiers had choice not to do as ordered; sure they had two choices, kill or be killed.

And now, as I got started. Do you hate Russia too? Stalin killed almost 20mil people? Or the Americans for dropping the A-bombs that kill still, over 60 years after the bombs?

[Jimbuna]

@Subwolf

I really cant believe you think that way. Hitler started the war, not the soldiers. I dont like the war in Iraq so should I hate the whole America because of it, instead of just hating Mr. Bush?

The soldiers didnt plan the killings of the Jews, so dont blame them about it. And before you say, that the soldiers had choice not to do as ordered; sure they had two choices, kill or be killed.

And now, as I got started. Do you hate Russia too? Stalin killed almost 20mil people? Or the Americans for dropping the A-bombs that kill still, over 60 years after the bombs?

Very well put Dowly :rock: :up: It's more often the politicians who make the policies and the leaders that dish out the orders that are the ones responsible and who should be held accountable :yep:

[Ole]

AVGWarhawk,
That's a very good way of putting it. Certainly, I respect everyone's right to his opinion, and his right to express it. I do agree with both of you, that war is something to be avoided. My point is that avoiding war at any and all cost is a recipe for the oppression of the weak by the strong. Therefore, even though war is bad, sometimes it's necessary. The fact that we wish to avoid war, as you say, doesn't guarantee our wishes will come true.
I do object to sweeping generalizations and absolute statements, especially when unsupported by any facts. I also object to profanity, insults or personal attacks when one person disagrees with another. I'm more than happy to discuss or debate most any topic, but all who take part need to observe basic rules of civility and conduct.
Just my opinion, but that's how I see things.
Thanks,
Dan
Dan,
Agreed on personal attacks. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Individual thought makes us individuals, unique in our own way. I often find that those who engage in personal attacks and profanity have been corned and are fighting their way out. In what light anyone sees someones opinion as flawed must open their minds to the possiblities presented before them, digest it and analyze it's potential. It is at this point this person should make logical, analylitical conclusions or retort. Always with a civilized tone. Your opinion is as much sought after as anyone elses who wish to participate.

the general discussions topic is the role of the crew of the uboats during world war 2. i tried to figure out my opinion:war has to be avoided, always!
I never showed profanity or anything else, but i don´t want to be rebuked only of my opninion! in fact, when you read my first post, and the response i got to it, you will find out, that many things were assumed which i neither wrote or meant. this is not a fair behavior and i am very sad that this happening.
my view is and will be:
war is unecessary! to defend your country, war might be inevitable, but this does not trivialise a war.
i´m sorry if some do not agree with this, but they should not call me a person, trying to abolish democracy or even trivialising the Nazi Regime. this is unbelievable.

[melnibonian]

I have the feeling that such discussions never lead anywhere as every one of us has strong opinions on the subject. That of course does not mean we shouldn’t have them. On the contrary, I feel they are important as they allow us to exchange our opinions.

In the case of Germany in WWII my view is like this. Germans did support Hitler. Probably they didn’t wish to see the mass exterminations and the genocides but they did support his idea and view of the Greater Germany that controls Europe. Therefore they did go along with the war, the persecutions of the Jews and the erosion of the Weimar Republic due to a strange sense of duty and obedience to the Fatherland. Obviously that does not make every single German a war criminal and a monster (or anything else you would like to call them), but it does not diminish the level of responsibility for the actions of their country. Something that applies today for the US citizens and the occupation of Iraq, or the British and European citizens and the war in Afghanistan and so many other places. I have the feeling that calling all Germans murderers or responsible for the war is the easy way out, as it covers the guilt, responsibility and possible crimes, other countries can be called to account for that period. Let’s not forget that the Allied soldiers were also killing civilians (innocent or not depends on who’s side you are actually-if they belong to the opposition you can call the collateral damage) Obviously war is a horrible and dirty affair and its results can be (and were) devastating. I do believe that no one can call the German soldiers heroes or villains. They did their duty for their country and for what they seriously believed to be correct (i.e. the global fight against communism, taking revenge for the result of WWI, even the purity of their race). Let’s make one thing clear here. I do talk about the ordinary soldiers here and not the SS, concentration camp crews etc. These do belong to a different category that probably need another thread and maybe physiological evaluation as well. The German soldiers fought for their country with bravery and resolute determination but not more or less than the soldiers of other countries. They were ordinary people who had families and thought that their country was in danger. Think about it for a second. Doesn’t this argument apply for the Allied soldiers as well? Of course it does. They also fought for their country and for their beliefs. So how can we say that they cannot be considered as heroes if our soldiers do??? For that reason I do believe that we should see all soldiers of all sides as combatants and give them the respect they deserve. They fought and gave their lives for their country, their future and their beliefs. In my view there is nothing more gallant than that. We do hear today and for the last 50 years the victors’ side of the story. I do not dispute it or argue against it as I do believe that the Nazi regime was an evil one and it lasted far more than it deserved. What I do believe though is that we tend demonise far too much the Nazis and forget that life is not jut black and white but has shades of grey. I do not advocate that Germany was correct in declaring war to everyone who was not speaking German but I do not believe that 50 million Germans woke up one morning and thought out of the blue ‘It would be a good idea to go and conquer the world’. There were other issues behind it (Versailles treaty, general fear in the west of the Communist regimes, German isolation and economic depression etc), issues that the Allies had a certain responsibility (how much is debatable).

[melnibonian]

The soldiers didnt plan the killings of the Jews, so dont blame them about it. And before you say, that the soldiers had choice not to do as ordered; sure they had two choices, kill or be killed.
Dowly we agree in almost everything you say.
Unfortunatelly it's part of human nature to go out and kill each other. 100,000 years of evolution and 6,000 years of civilisation did nothing to make us better. I guess we will see things like this in the future unfortunatelly.

Also as far as the soldiers are concerned you're right. it is kill or be killed, and after all what do children and old people have in common??? They do not fight back. They were soft targets, and if your choise was kill the old man or go to the Eastern Front and face the Soviet tanks I don't think many would have managed to bypass the self preservation issue here.

[AVGWarhawk]

Melbionian,:up:

Well put and to the point. The thread started a general discussion on the common German soldier/Navyman. Not unlike you or me. One insignificant person in a iron tube floating out in the vastness of the ocean with one directive from his higher ups as it were. This was not about the dreaded SS and its diabolical practices. This was about the commom man either German or Allied traversing the ocean in a machine I would have second thoughts about taking on a voyage weather for aggressive acts or just sightseeing. I see you brought up the word isolationism. Was this not what the Japanese had accomplished? We all know the outcome of that particular part of the war as well. You are correct, it was a kill or be killed situation and many Germans were caught up in it but still wanted no parts of it. God forbid(and Donitz) that you show cowardice in the face of the enemy. You will be put in front of a firing squad. Yes, I agree that we do need to look deeper and long before 1939 that lead up to the war. I do believe that is another thread in itself as you stated! But alas, the German soldier was not an automaton. There are German heros that fought heroically to protect family, country and beliefs. Unfortunate most get their history lessons from Bollywood porducers who have a tendency to portray the German soldier as evil. Even Darth Vadar has an SS quality about him. When in all reality as you stated, the German soldier was just protected ones own. These soldiers did not pick a fight, they were told to join in or be shot. Did some join in with shall we say with glee? You bet they did. I believe most joined in because they had no other choice. The Germans did support Hitler. Unfortunate that Hitler used this in the wrong way. People got sweeped up in the 'hype' for lack of a better word. I'm certain that a large majority were not aware of the mass exterminations and if they had known there would have been more outcry. Yes, all in the country should bear responsiblity for this action. Unfortunate for them they were rooting for the home team and must bear the loss of the game with the rest of the teammates.

But back to the original thread, man, machine, tiny speck in the ocean. What was going through his mind?

[melnibonian]

man, machine, tiny speck in the ocean. What was going through his mind?
I'm glad we agree AVGWarhawk:up:

To come back to your original question I would say.....To Survive

I know it's not as galmorous as we like to think but I'm affraid it's the truth:yep: :yep:

[AVGWarhawk]

AVGWarhawk,
That's a very good way of putting it. Certainly, I respect everyone's right to his opinion, and his right to express it. I do agree with both of you, that war is something to be avoided. My point is that avoiding war at any and all cost is a recipe for the oppression of the weak by the strong. Therefore, even though war is bad, sometimes it's necessary. The fact that we wish to avoid war, as you say, doesn't guarantee our wishes will come true.
I do object to sweeping generalizations and absolute statements, especially when unsupported by any facts. I also object to profanity, insults or personal attacks when one person disagrees with another. I'm more than happy to discuss or debate most any topic, but all who take part need to observe basic rules of civility and conduct.
Just my opinion, but that's how I see things.
Thanks,
Dan
Dan,
Agreed on personal attacks. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Individual thought makes us individuals, unique in our own way. I often find that those who engage in personal attacks and profanity have been corned and are fighting their way out. In what light anyone sees someones opinion as flawed must open their minds to the possiblities presented before them, digest it and analyze it's potential. It is at this point this person should make logical, analylitical conclusions or retort. Always with a civilized tone. Your opinion is as much sought after as anyone elses who wish to participate.

the general discussions topic is the role of the crew of the uboats during world war 2. i tried to figure out my opinion:war has to be avoided, always!
I never showed profanity or anything else, but i don´t want to be rebuked only of my opninion! in fact, when you read my first post, and the response i got to it, you will find out, that many things were assumed which i neither wrote or meant. this is not a fair behavior and i am very sad that this happening.
my view is and will be:
war is unecessary! to defend your country, war might be inevitable, but this does not trivialise a war.
i´m sorry if some do not agree with this, but they should not call me a person, trying to abolish democracy or even trivialising the Nazi Regime. this is unbelievable.

Ole,
Perhaps this is where it went sour, you stated what the crews role was as the thread topic noted above from your response. In all reality it was what this man (German crewman)was thinking and doing in the vastness of the ocean floating around as insignificant as ant in a hay field. Less than a handful of what I would say dependable devices to get from point A to point B. That is all. The thread has grown into something more which is excellent because open minded discussion always make for good entertainment and I just might learn something!! Please join in and give us what you got. All opinions, thoughts and point of fact are always welcomed.:up:

[Corsair]

As I am also musician, here a fast translation of parts of a very nice french song from Jean Jacques Goldman (hope its ok, english not my original language) :


If I had been born in 1917 in Leidenstadt
On the ruins of a battlefield
Would I have been better or worse than these people
If I had been born German.

Raised in humiliation, hatred and ignorance
Fed with dreams of revenge
Would I have been among these rare consciousnesses
Just a tear in the middle of a wild stream ?

.....

We will never know what's really in our guts
Hidden behind what we show to the outside
The soul of a brave, of an accomplice or an executioner
The worst or the most beautiful
Would we be among those who resist
Or one of the sheep in the herd
When it would come to more than words

....

I hope that you and me are spared for a very long time
To have to choose a side.

[AVGWarhawk]

man, machine, tiny speck in the ocean. What was going through his mind?
I'm glad we agree AVGWarhawk:up:

To come back to your original question I would say.....To Survive

I know it's not as galmorous as we like to think but I'm affraid it's the truth:yep: :yep:

Melnibonia...excellent response dude. No doubt his forefront thought was to survive and for what? Family, friends, a future? You bet'cha:up: Gosh, these guys were almost.....human! Go figure. Case closed! Thanks Menibonian for bring it home!

[Subwolf]

Case is far from closed. It looks like most of you don't agree with me, I'm beginning to wonder..

I'm just home from work, and now I head for the shower. But I got some more to say in this matter sooner or later.

[mookiemookie]

But back to the original thread, man, machine, tiny speck in the ocean. What was going through his mind?
Fear, loneliness, disillusionment. Finding out the "glory" of war and "serving the Fatherland" is not at all like they made it out to be. Realizing the rest of your life wasn't counted in years, but rather minutes and hours and days. Gradually coming to the understanding that the war was hopeless and everything you were led to believe was a lie, propogated by a sick and twisted form of nationalism.

I think that idea is expressed very well by Buchheim in Das Boot: "They made us all train for this day. 'To be fearless and proud and alone. To need no one, just sacrifice. All for the Fatherland.' Oh God, all just empty words. It's not the way they said it was, is it? I just want someone to be with. The only thing I feel is afraid."

[TheSatyr]

It was Raeder not Doenitz that made the Kriegsmarine what it was as far as politics went. Raeder wanted an apolitical Navy. The Nazi salute was actually frowned upon in the Kreigsmarine...unofficially of course. Which might explain Hitler's ambivalance towards the Kriegsmarine.

As Hitler supposedly once said,He had a National Socialist Airforce, a Weimar Republic Army,and an Imperial Germany Navy.

[CCIP]

Well I think the political situation everywhere can't be genralized. Even Das Boot, which is about as anti-Nazi as one could imagine, has its token Nazi to make the point. Many famous U-boat commanders like Prien and Luth were dedicated Nazis themselves.

That actually brings me to an interesting point. Having read writings by both Luth and Prien, who beyond all doubt were Nazis, I can say this: Prien's raid into Scapa flow, much as Luth's several-month patrol to the Far East, can certainly be called daring, admirably brave and I dare say even heroic deeds. Imagine the nerves it took to stay calm while riding the tide into the midst of the enemy's main base, or the perseverance it took to be trapped for many months in an iron tube - and how admirably well, in both cases, the two man had taken leadership roles over their crew and led them to victory. I think without a doubt both were great leaders of men, whose skills in that role deserve admiration and should serve as lessons for everyone. You can't, with reference to that specific situation, say that Prien and Luth were cowards, unworthy men, or anything like that. Try doing what they did. But what you can say is that they were Nazis. But let's not mix the two. I don't see why we can't learn from them. Americans certainly didn't mind learning usefully from former Nazis in general - think of where much of the space program came from. :hmm:

I can even play devil's advocate. What is one's argument to belittle the suffering endured by U-boat crews besides political alignment? Who is in position to say that political alignment determines the degree to which one is human? These are key questions to be addressed. I honestly believe that when one makes a distinction between 'more human' or 'less human', we get into very dangerous territory which was the very territory the Nazi ideology lived in.

[Dowly]

Case is far from closed. It looks like most of you don't agree with me, I'm beginning to wonder..

I'm just home from work, and now I head for the shower. But I got some more to say in this matter sooner or later.

Dont get me wrong there, mate. It just that from time to time people forget that it was the Nazi party who took actions againts the Jews, not the soldiers, but the leaders of the party.

IMO, the Ubootwaffe was the most uninfluenced branch of the German military, mostly because they were out on the sea most of the time. Whereas a soldier of the Wermacht saw and heard the propaganda in daily basis.

Most of the soldiers never wanted the war, but under Hitler´s reign, they had no choice but to fight, either that or be executed as a 'enemy of the Reich'.

[Subwolf]

In every German WW2 U-boat there were at least one nazi officer, often the captain were among them. The last thing I would do is to support nazism, and I hope that you all share that view.

I'm gonna tell you some of what my grandfather went thru out there in the Atlantic during the war.

In late -41 his eastbound convoy was attacked by several U-boats at night. There were two ships from the same company in the convoy, my grandfather was a crewmember on one of them, and on the other ship his older brother and his son. That ship was hit by two torpedoes and went down quickly, the crew ended up in the water, some of them still alive including his brother's son. My grandfather's ship was behind the sinking one, and he could see him in water screaming. They were not allowed to stop and pick up survivors, but something was thrown in the water at the end of a rope in an effort to save him. He managed to hold on for a while but the cold water soon drained his energy. My grandfather had to see him disappear into the dark Atlantic. The boy was just 16...

About two months later his convoy was attacked again, this time a British ship was sunk and the crew escaped in two lifeboats. Later the lifeboats were spotted by an escort from another convoy, they found the crew killed, all of them shot to death except one who survived and could tell what happened. The U-boat surfaced and opened fire on the lifeboats.

The innocent civilians who died during city bombings were casualties of war, these men in the lifeboats were victims of murderers. How many of the merchant sailors who were murdered by the German U-boat crews is not known, but they can be added to the six million jews killed by the nazis.

This is why some your posts here almost makes me sick, you look up to them and applaude them for what they did to our relatives. But no matter what you think about them, this is something we can never forgive. Please play SH3 for the fun of the game, but don't go too far thinking that the U-boat crews and murderers were the heroes of the battle of the Atlantic. Instead start to show some more respect for those who saved us from the nazis.

[melnibonian]

In every German WW2 U-boat there were at least one nazi officer, often the captain were among them. The last thing I would do is to support nazism, and I hope that you all share that view.
I do share your view and I do not support Nazism, but I have the feeling that the number of Nazis in U-Boats was the same as it was in any other part of German Army and German life. Some of them were professional soldiers who just did their job, others were there because their country was at war and some were die-heard Nazis who thought Hitler was a living God.


About two months later his convoy was attacked again, this time a British ship was sunk and the crew escaped in two lifeboats. Later the lifeboats were spotted by an escort from another convoy, they found the crew killed, all of them shot to death except one who survived and could tell what happened. The U-boat surfaced and opened fire on the lifeboats.
I do not dispute your story and I do not want to be pedantic here but actual evidence and records of the Royal Navy do not show that this was a common practice. If I remember correctly there are 2 or 3 confirmed incidents of U-Boats firing at lifeboats. In any case it is unacceptable and these people were criminals. We should not confuse or even compare the execusions of prisoners that took part in the Estern Front or other theater of operations with the Atlantic though.


The innocent civilians who died during city bombings were casualties of war, these men in the lifeboats were victims of murderers. How many of the merchant sailors who were murdered by the German U-boat crews is not known, but they can be added to the six million jews killed by the nazis.
I'm sorry if I sound harsh or cruel but if you're labeled casualty of war (or if we want to use the modern NATO terminology collateral damage) or a murdered victim has a lot to do with who's doing the labeling and the counting. Unfortunatelly these two notions tend to be a bit vague. The important thing is that people died by an evil regime in a premeditated manner (the case of concentration camps etc) and people died as a natural cancequence of battles fought during the war. Although both deaths are sad I think there should be a slight difference in the way we treat them.


This is why some your posts here almost makes me sick, you look up to them and applaude them for what they did to our relatives.
I do not look up to them and I do not applaude. I'm just saying that if you run the numbers people died in both sides of the conflict. Nothing more nothing less.


But no matter what you think about them, this is something we can never forgive.
I'm affraid this attitude is the seed of future conflicts. I know it's difficult to forgive, and I believe that we should never forget, but there should be a point where you have to let go and try to see things a little less passionate.


Please play SH3 for the fun of the game, but don't go too far thinking that the U-boat crews and murderers were the heroes of the battle of the Atlantic. Instead start to show some more respect for those who saved us from the nazis.
SH3 is just a game we all enjoy. Nothing more and nothing less. As far as the crews I've made my opinion clear if previous posts. As far who saved us I would have said Russian blood and American money, but I know the issue is a bit more complex than that.

Subwolf don't get me wrong. I do agree with a lot of your points but I do believe that life is not just black and white. There are shades of grey. If something I said hurts you I appologise deeply as this is not my intention. Don't forget I come from a country (Greece) that suffered in percentages as much in casualties of war as the Soviet Union and Germany, so I do know what it means to mourn deaths. I have no intention to glorify the Nazis and if you read my previous posts you should see that. All I'm saying is that it was a horrible war and it would be better for us the younger generations to see things less in black and white and more in grey.

[baggygreen]

How about we just look at them as men who went in against the odds, and did what most men did in that time, fight for their country.

15 years ago, Paul Keating (then PM of oz) gave an address at the burial of the unknown australian soldier in the War memorial here in canberra. He said something along the lines of "it does not matter that we fought, because the only real enemy in war is death" or something along those lines. It was a long time ago, my memory may well be rusty, and who knows, i may well be quoting someone else - but i think its right..

bottom line - No sane soldier wants war, today it is best we acknowledge the hardships that they endured on all sides.

[Dowly]

There is only one proven case of Uboat shooting survivors.

Here´s the article on Uboat.net about it:
http://uboat.net/articles/index.html?article=55

[Subwolf]

I got nothing more to say in this thread, if I do it could turn ugly. I'm out of it.

[Dowly]

We can talk without fighting! You have your opinions and I have mine, I cant change your´s and you cant change mine. No need to fight.

The thing I´m trying to say here, is that you cant judge a country because one lunatic decided that all Jews must be murdered and that everyone who opposes him will get the same fate as the Jews.

And I´m sorry that your grandfather had to go through all that, but what can I say? It was war, I doubt he didnt know that there are uboats stalking the merchant shipping.
My grandfather lost two of his brothers in the war and my grandmother was identifying the mutilated bodies coming home from the front, so dont think I dont know what war can do to someone. :-?

[CCIP]

I don't see how it got ugly. It got personal at points, but everyone so far has been remarkably civil. And I'm actually curious if you can get me another documented case of lifeboats being shot - this would be a big historical thing. As Dowly very appropriately mentioned, there is only one known case so far, and that one was rather shady (the captain claimed he was only shooting at debri, unaware there were survivors on it) and was punished harshly by an allied tribunal (hanging for both captain and XO).

Again, Subwolf - you're completely misinterpreting the term 'heroes' as it may be applied. Noone is taking 'heroes' in the sense of suffering for a righteous cause from the merchant seamen and giving it to the U-boats, nor should they.

I find your bitterness surprising. With all due respect, if anyone can 'boast' a harsh family history in regard to WWII, I certainly fall under that category. The three that I know of didn't even have the 'luxury' of a quick death - one died by starving in his own home, one died after the war as a crippled alcoholic (who turned to it because of his injuries), one died in a concentration camp. But I don't hold bitterness towards the armies that did it to them. No, let me correct that: I don't hold bitterness to EVERY individual in the armies that did it to them. People are not some grey mass, even in an army. People are individuals that should be judged individually. Perhaps when you try and give an individual U-boat man's story as much consideration as your relatives', you might understand that.

Noone has still addressed my point on de-humanization. That either went over people's ears or stung too hard, hmm? :hmm:

[Subwolf]

Didn't say it got ugly, I said it can get ugly if I continue to be a part of this discussion.

What we know for a fact when it comes to attacking lifeboats is this: It was an order by Hitler, but Donitz was against it. We know of some attacks were victims survived, but most of them could not be confirmed. And the reason is easy, how the hell do you think it is possible to prove it when they were alone with the U-boats, and were shot to pieces? Nobody survived to testify, and do you really think that the germans logged those attacks? They suspect that a large numbers of sailors were murdered by them.

[Venatore]

I'll get this back on track. I'm totally awe struck by these young U-Boat Captain's because they were about my age or younger and were in command of a U-boat and their men (30-50). I can't image me, being sent on a mission for up to 6-8 weeks alone with my crew and trying to disrupt a convoy/route with limited direction from my commander/s. Trying to also keep your crew sane and focused.

Imagine you as a captain; have hit your first ship, but in doing so you have brought the rath of four maybe five destoryer commnanders onto to you. Each one of these destoryer commanders is trained if not better than you. All your men now look to you for the correct tactial decsion, the wrong one will have you and your crew intombed on an enternal voyage.

How many people my age could do that today......not many.

[CCIP]

Nobody survived to testify, and do you really think that the germans logged those attacks? They suspect that a large numbers of sailors were murdered by them.
A good question. I would say they probably would record this, based on the fact that there are many rather undesirable events recorded in the logbooks. Elswhere, look at the meticulously-documented atrocities by the death squads in the East and the concentration camps of course - complete with photos of the deed and name lists of victims, even. Why would submarines be such a mysterious exception?

There may have been more incidents, I don't deny that. But I strongly doubt that, with the exception of a possible few, german naval officers did not follow their established naval code. Ask any naval officer about the consequences of failing to report everything accurately. I fail to see why these would not be enforced in the Kriegsmarine.

[AVGWarhawk]

I'll get this back on track. I'm 36yrs old and have been in the Army for 18 yrs. I lead men on operations and now am at the rank to man-manage up to about 120 soldiers. I am totally awe struck by these young U-Boat Captain's because they were about my age or younger and were in command of a U-boat and their men (30-50). I can't image me, being sent on a mission for up to 6-8 weeks alone with my crew and trying to disrupt a convoy/route with limited direction from my commander/s. Trying to also keep your crew sane and focused.

Imagine you as a captain; have hit your first ship, but in doing so you have brought the rath of four maybe five destoryer commnanders onto to you. Each one of these destoryer commanders is trained if not better than you. All your men now look to you for the correct tactial decsion, the wrong one will have you and your crew intombed on an enternal voyage.

How many people my age could do that today......not many.


Good point. I'm 42 and at the tender age of 22 I was busy looking for my next six pack and a good lay. I would be hard pressed to command a vessel at that age.

[AVGWarhawk]

Didn't say it got ugly, I said it can get ugly if I continue to be a part of this discussion.

What we know for a fact when it comes to attacking lifeboats is this: It was an order by Hitler, but Donitz was against it. We know of some attacks were victims survived, but most of them could not be confirmed. And the reason is easy, how the hell do you think it is possible to prove it when they were alone with the U-boats, and were shot to pieces? Nobody survived to testify, and do you really think that the germans logged those attacks? They suspect that a large numbers of sailors were murdered by them.

It will only get ugly if you let it. Continue on with your point of view. Thus far, the discussion has been pretty tame and I venture to guess it will remain so. The Germans were meticulas in record keeping. In fact, this was the nail in their coffins when the war was over and the trials began. I suspect that the u-boat logs were accurate. Furthermore, I suspect one of the crew would have raised a hand on any incidents that went against doctrine. The noted incident of shooting survivors, as I understand it, one of the officers refused to do it. Even with the threat of being shot for not following a direct order. These captains were out for tonnage not the sport of shooting sailors in the water. Tonnage bought medals and respect. Shooting of swimmers did not. Least we forget the Wahoo and what happened with this US submarine. Same circumstances, same ending to the story. Skipper is glorified anyway. :hmm: There is a thread in the SH4 forums discussing this at length.

[CCIP]

Meanwhile on the subject of Germans and survivors, here are some far better-documented cases that one should be aware of.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/northwest/series6/city_of_benares.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/derbyshire/3261873.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/94/a4262294.shtml

Or,

Not knowing the number of the boat or the name of her commander, he could only base his search on the edelweiss flower depicted on her conning tower that he mistook for a sunflower. With only this scarce information, he nevertheless managed to track down Schulz's name and locate his address in Hamburg. He wrote him a latter, asking if he's the same submarine captain that sunk "Tweed", and then saved him and his comrades.

When Schultz confirmed this, Baker invited him and his wife to visit him at Poole. And so, sixteen years after that fateful meeting off the coast of Africa, these two men shook each other's hands at a dock in Poole.

this was a strange and at the same time a happy meeting. The act of mercy, that even momentarily brushed aside the war to save the lives of shipwrecked sailors touched the hearts of Poole's residents. [...]

Schultz also learned the fate of the other three British men that survived the sinking of the "Umona" only to struggle to survive on a wooden raft. The man that received a head injury died several days later, but the other two reached the african shore after nineteen horrible days at sea. Both of them - Edward Elliot and F. Witout - wrote a letter thanking Schultz after the end of the war. Without the provisions that he gave them, they would not have survived

(note - I had to use a Russian version of the book for the quote, sorry for any inaccuracies)

[Kiwi Commandant]

Hey - what I find amazing about all this is the fact we all just play a 'computer game' and look at the intellectual grunt of the debate that's going on here! It's wonderful. Let's not ever listen to people who think this is kids' stuff -SH3 is fantastic and so are all you guys who contribute to this. After 15 years of playing all sorts of comp games (albeit at a superficial level for most of them), overall SH3 is the best for me yet. Brilliant - and GWX is isn't even out yet.

[bigboywooly]

Nice stories CCIP

On the other hand there are many stories where people were left to die
The sinking of the Bismark for one
The RN fleet sailed off leaving over 1000 men in the water as they thought they were in danger from uboat attack - with many very close to being rescued by the escort DD's

Such is war

[mr chris]

It really makes one think what people will do in the name of war.

[CCIP]

Nice stories CCIP

On the other hand there are many stories where people were left to die
The sinking of the Bismark for one
The RN fleet sailed off leaving over 1000 men in the water as they thought they were in danger from uboat attack - with many very close to being rescued by the escort DD's

Such is war
True. Let's not forget that in these incidents these weren't all nice stories, either. Schulz technically left the lifeboats almost sure that they wouldn't make it alive, and the one that sunk the passenger liner certainly didn't (nor couldn't) do much at all. But the fact is that the sides forgave each other, despite being on different sides of the torpedo, so to speak.

And as can be seen in the Scharnhorst story - some of the respect was instantaneous. I remember reading about Scharnhorst (which was also a commercial raider in its own right, like the U-boats) -

Scharnhorst sank at 19:45 hours with her propellers still turning.

Later that evening Admiral Bruce Fraser briefed his officers on board Duke of York: "Gentlemen, the battle against Scharnhorst has ended in victory for us. I hope that if any of you are ever called upon to lead a ship into action against an opponent many times superior, you will command your ship as gallantly as Scharnhorst was commanded today".

[melnibonian]

Noone has still addressed my point on de-humanization. That either went over people's ears or stung too hard, hmm? :hmm:
Unfortunatelly the idea of de-humanisation is a usual trick used throughout the centuries to make killing of the enemy easier. It's harsh, cruel but it's the truth. Don't just stick to WWII, see what is happening today around the world and you will see how de-humanisation makes killing simple and easier to digest. It's unfortunate that after so many years we still haven't moved on to a better understanding of our fellow humans

[mr chris]

Noone has still addressed my point on de-humanization. That either went over people's ears or stung too hard, hmm? :hmm:
Unfortunatelly the idea of de-humanisation is a usual trick used throughout the centuries to make killing of the enemy easier. It's harsh, cruel but it's the truth. Don't just stick to WWII, see what is happening today around the world and you will see how de-humanisation makes killing simple and easier to digest. It's unfortunate that after so many years we still haven't moved on to a better understanding of our fellow humans

True Mel very true. But Being the tool that kills is for a few people a job that has to be done to protect ones country. Im not saying that everyone who fights for ones country is a de-humanmised monster. At the end of the day people deal with things in there own way.

[melnibonian]

True Mel very true. But Being the tool that kills is for a few people a job that has to be done to protect ones country.
MrChris don't get me wrong. I do not judge why you (not you personally but soldiers in general) go out and kill someone. The reasons can be from protecting your country and your family to teach someone a lesson or settle an old score. What I'm saying is that by making the other appear less human it's easier and simple to kill him. That's what I find really difficult to accept. I do know though that I say all this from the comfort of my home in front of my computer and far away from harm's way, so I do not judge the job that soldiers do in the field. I do have obviously my opinion about some things but I do have full respect for the fact that some people are willing to risk their lives for me, irrispectably if the danger is true or not (that's the job of others)

[mr chris]

True Mel very true. But Being the tool that kills is for a few people a job that has to be done to protect ones country.
MrChris don't get me wrong. I do not judge why you (not you personally but soldiers in general) go out and kill someone. The reasons can be from protecting your country and your family to teach someone a lesson or settle an old score. What I'm saying is that by making the other appear less human it's easier and simple to kill him. That's what I find really difficult to accept. I do know though that I say all this from the comfort of my home in front of my computer and far away from harm's way, so I do not judge the job that soldiers do in the field. I do have obviously my opinion about some things but I do have full respect for the fact that some people are willing to risk their lives for me, irrispectably if the danger is true or not (that's the job of others)

Hey Mel sorry if i took your post the wrong way did not mean too mate.:up:
I totaly agree with what you poated there mate spot on:up: :yep:

[melnibonian]

True Mel very true. But Being the tool that kills is for a few people a job that has to be done to protect ones country.
MrChris don't get me wrong. I do not judge why you (not you personally but soldiers in general) go out and kill someone. The reasons can be from protecting your country and your family to teach someone a lesson or settle an old score. What I'm saying is that by making the other appear less human it's easier and simple to kill him. That's what I find really difficult to accept. I do know though that I say all this from the comfort of my home in front of my computer and far away from harm's way, so I do not judge the job that soldiers do in the field. I do have obviously my opinion about some things but I do have full respect for the fact that some people are willing to risk their lives for me, irrispectably if the danger is true or not (that's the job of others)

Hey Mel sorry if i took your post the wrong way did not mean too mate.:up:
I totaly agree with what you poated there mate spot on:up: :yep:
Oh no don't worry about it. The only reason why I did clarify things is because I do not want to offend anyone. (better be safe than sorry as you Brits say;) ;) ) You're correct in what you're talking about and we're really cool:up: :up: :up:

[melnibonian]

Im not saying that everyone who fights for ones country is a de-humanmised monster. At the end of the day people deal with things in there own way.
True MrChris TOTALLY TRUE:up: :up: :up: :up:

[mr chris]

True Mel very true. But Being the tool that kills is for a few people a job that has to be done to protect ones country.
MrChris don't get me wrong. I do not judge why you (not you personally but soldiers in general) go out and kill someone. The reasons can be from protecting your country and your family to teach someone a lesson or settle an old score. What I'm saying is that by making the other appear less human it's easier and simple to kill him. That's what I find really difficult to accept. I do know though that I say all this from the comfort of my home in front of my computer and far away from harm's way, so I do not judge the job that soldiers do in the field. I do have obviously my opinion about some things but I do have full respect for the fact that some people are willing to risk their lives for me, irrispectably if the danger is true or not (that's the job of others)

Hey Mel sorry if i took your post the wrong way did not mean too mate.:up:
I totaly agree with what you poated there mate spot on:up: :yep:
Oh no don't worry about it. The only reason why I did clarify things is because I do not want to offend anyone. (better be safe than sorry as you Brits say;) ;) ) You're correct in what you're talking about and we're really cool:up: :up: :up:

That is good to hear mate:up: :up:

[Dowly]

In a documentary about the Winter War I saw a few weeks back, a historian said that some of the finnish soldiers that were manning the machineguns had to be pulled out of the front as their mental state collapsed. The reason was the tactic the russians used most of the time, an all out frontal assault against a fortified lines. On a 'busy day' one machinegunner had to kill close to one thousand enemy soldiers that were just running towards you. I cant even imagine how that must have felt. :nope:

[heartc]

i guess, there were many whoose possibilities were raised only by serving in the army or even joining the Nazi party. These, for me, were poor pigs. Those who identified themselves with the Nazi party, their programm and their ideology, were barbarous men. Its a sad part of the german history. But it developed something good in the german population: we try to avoid wars as good as possible and we are very aware of the government.
So, we try to avoid wars "as good as possible"? True, and it's easy when others "die Kastanien aus dem Feuer holen", right? It grants people like you the comfortness to be able to come up with highly sophisticated concepts like: "a government sending people into war is ruthless and worthless." Right, there is nothing worth, in fact right enough, fighting for - the other side of that same coin would be all countries at war are the same. In your relativist mindset, that would mean Hitler's Germany was unjustifiably under attack by the Allies. We were not; and believe it or not, but WWII was neither the first nor the last war in the history of mankind when concepts of right and wrong - albeit in shades of grey - went off against each other. It is easy for you in hindsight 60 years after to damn the Nazis and thus claim the moral highground, but the rest of your posting and your slanderous and poorly hidden (smartass? try again) attack against one of the best allies - albeit not just out of courtesy, but of common goals - our country has ever had after WWII shows that you lack any deeper understanding of history and political mechanisms. In fact, your very simplicity in political thought and simply picking up on the Anti-US bias we are served in the media here on a daily base has you have more in common with your grandpa than you might have ever thought. My Grandpa was also serving in WWII, on the East Front, in fact my Dad was, too, on the West Front as 16 y.o., but this does not grant me the moral highground to now make smart ass remarks like

in so far, i think no one would be able to install a new dictatorship in germany, even not an official "elected" like an other big country has.
Very sophisticated indeed. What kind of logic is that anyway? "Because we in fact ELECTED a REAL dictatorship in the 1930s, and needed democracy bombed back into us, we do now have the authority to teach the rest of the world on how to conduct policy in a moral manner." Yeah, and the two students we pay the most attention to just coincidentaly happen to be our former enemies of WWII, those who bombed the **** out of us before giving us our freedom back while watching the fence during the Cold War for us, and those people we were bzy gassing in the 40s. Yes, we just want the best for them, since they are our friends, thus it's in their best interest if people like you and the media in this country call or portray the US a near-dictatorship and alienate about 50% of its population, and call or portray the Israelis today's Nazis. It's all in good spirit, folks! Anyone who detects attempts to whitewash one's own past by smearing others is just not thinking hard enough!

And "We are very aware of the government"?? Give me a break. "Very aware" as in having state sponsored television you have to pay mandatory fees for even if you don't watch it? Or as in our former chancellor Schröder calling Putin a "Spotless Democrat" short before his government goes belly up and he joins one of the biggest Russian gasoline companies as an "advisor"? And are you also "very aware" of what the bureacrats in EU's Brussels are spinning up each day, you know, those guys making laws for us and we couldn't even vote for? I hope you are, cause I'm not. But I see, you're rather busy with "worrying" about your 'ol friend the US turning fascist cause of that evil, evil BushHitler.

"Terror is the war of the poor" my ass. You want to be different than your grandpa, get a moral compass, and quickly. And maybe listen to some live speech of Bush or some else US figure next time on CNN International before you go and read the whickedly distorted "quoting" most of the German media, including what is prolly your beloved Spiegel and Heute Nachrichten are making out of it. But since people constantly wonder about my ability to read books written in English, I'm afraid proper knowledge of English to accomplish that feat might be beyond you as with most. No BBC for Grandpa, no CNN for you. No worries, we are "very aware". Allrighty. If you want to become aware of something, go to

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/hsa01.htm

and compare THAT with what you read TODAY in Germany. If still everything is fine for you, I feel very sorry. Hint: It's not really those skinheads running around occasionally, it's the BS up in people's head, OK? Back then, most were not "Barbarous" men, as you put it. They were just stupid and ignorant. And it doesn't matter whether it's a swastika or a red star. But don't worry - you know you are not alone, you are "very aware" together with about 85% of Germany.

To the rest: Sorry, but I have a hard time with that ****. Actually, I have a hard time staying in Europe, let alone Germany, albeit I was born here. I have this kind of BS and those kind of people talking this BS around me all damn day long. I hate it when I come here as a constant lurker only to get the same ****.

It is one thing to critizise Bush, especially when you are an American Citizen who might actually have relatives engaged in combat right now, it's another thing to just blabber bull**** about a pseudo-Fascist US you picked up from yet another Anti-American rant in yet another Anti-American weekly as a German - especially when you use it as a stinky revisionist tool in a discussion about Nazi-Germany - and ESPECIALLY when you do it without noticing it, or anything wrong.

Regards
heartc

[CCIP]

In a documentary about the Winter War I saw a few weeks back, a historian said that some of the finnish soldiers that were manning the machineguns had to be pulled out of the front as their mental state collapsed. The reason was the tactic the russians used most of the time, an all out frontal assault against a fortified lines. On a 'busy day' one machinegunner had to kill close to one thousand enemy soldiers that were just running towards you. I cant even imagine how that must have felt. :nope:
Right. It was horrible for both sides of that, just imagine being in one or the other side's shoes. Whichever side you're on - the Finnish soldier had their own country to defend behind their backs; and I think one could imagine just what sort of 'motivation' it took to get a Soviet soldier into one of those human wave attacks (read: you'd die a worse death if you refused to be part of it). Later in 1943, my great-grandfather would suffer a horrible fate at the hands of a Finnish sniper north of Leningrad (he was shot in the leg, or perhaps closer to 'had his leg shot off', in part to try and draw out the rest of his squad into the open to help him - and be shot all the same). But I'm not going to be bitter at the whole of the Finnish armed forces for that. They had a lot to lose if they relented. My response in this thread as proof of my view: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=101680

And you can't narrow it down to 'the guy behind the trigger'. The guy behind the trigger isn't just there pulling the trigger. If you think it was easy for U-boat men to sink poor harmless merchants... remember how the U-boot fleet had THE highest casualty rate of ANY armed service branch in any side of WWII? So much for cowardice. :hmm:

[Dowly]

Yea, it doesnt matter which nationality the guy is. Anyone going through the hell the people went through during the WWII ought to get a medal.

[bigboywooly]

I was watching some documenteries the other month on the battle of Britain
They had some interviews with pilots
One of them was saying his billet was on the edge of the airfield
He said the 4 of them went to bed one night at the start of the b of B
The next night there were 3 of them
2 the next night and the next day he was the only one left

A couple of days later he was shot down but he bailed out over land - the other 3 had died in the air or in the sea

After that he said he never bothered to even ask for his new room mates names and never made friends as it wasnt worth it

Now thats dehumanization for you

[AVGWarhawk]

I was watching some documenteries the other month on the battle of Britain
They had some interviews with pilots
One of them was saying his billet was on the edge of the airfield
He said the 4 of them went to bed one night at the start of the b of B
The next night there were 3 of them
2 the next night and the next day he was the only one left

A couple of days later he was shot down but he bailed out over land - the other 3 had died in the air or in the sea

After that he said he never bothered to even ask for his new room mates names and never made friends as it wasnt worth it

Now thats dehumanization for you


I have read that quite often. Most did not get chummy with new members to the squads. One day there and the next day gone. This was in all branches of the military. We cannot say though that quite a few did make it through in the same squads and were good friends.

[bigboywooly]

Goes without saying AVG
At the time - battle of Britain - it was the probably the best way to get through it
As war progressed and fighter pilot losses plummeted normal service would have been resumed lol
Mind its a bit hard not to make friends in a sub as you are stuck with them for weeks on end
And 90% of time if they go you go

[AVGWarhawk]

Goes without saying AVG
At the time - battle of Britain - it was the probably the best way to get through it
As war progressed and fighter pilot losses plummeted normal service would have been resumed lol
Mind its a bit hard not to make friends in a sub as you are stuck with them for weeks on end
And 90% of time if they go you go

I bet the percentage was higher than 90%! I bet Vegas would not have but the odds on the board!

[Safe-Keeper]

After watching movies by Stabiz and footage from the real thing, etc. has anyone really thought about what the Germans were doing out there in the oceans?Yesh. They were deployed by Grossadmiral Dönitz to operate against merchant shipping bound for England, in an effort to starve the island out.

More info:
http://uboat.net/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Atlantic_%281939-1945%29

:smug:

[/smartass]

[Subwolf]

Good point Safe-Keeper.

All of you who lives in the UK, USA, Canada, Australia were not occupied by the nazis for several years. Norway and most of the countries around Germany were. There is no history of occupation in your countries, you don't know what that means.

So I guess you are excused for all these nice words about the Germans during the war. But I hate them for it, and can never forgive them. That will never change.

However, I don't hate the people of Germany of today, they can't help what happened 65 years ago, and today they don't support nazism more than anyone else.

[CCIP]

So I guess you are excused for all these nice words about the Germans during the war. But I hate them for it, and can never forgive them. That will never change.


Remember, I said I was born in Leningrad, USSR. I guess I'm not excused. :88)

Well, but you're not one of those people who refuses to play SHIII because it's about Germans. Cheers for that, those kinds of things are a pet peeve for me.

To make amends, however, I promise to make a point of reading a book about the Battle of the Atlantic as it related to merchants seamen. Admit it, people - how many of you have read books about U-boats and escorts but read nothing about the merchantmen? Eh? Eh? ;)

[Subwolf]

So I guess you are excused for all these nice words about the Germans during the war. But I hate them for it, and can never forgive them. That will never change.


Remember, I said I was born in Leningrad, USSR. I guess I'm not excused. :88)

I can't remember that the USSR was occupied either..

But yes the nazis tried to, and had to pay for it. That failed operation was the beginning of the end for Hitler.

[CCIP]

But yes the nazis tried to, and had to pay for it. That failed operation was the beginning of the end for Hitler.
Not the whole of it, certainly. But the parts that were experienced the most brutal occupation seen anywhere. Certainly don't try to tell my grandfather the USSR wasn't occupied - Germans lived in his house, Germans killed his livestock, Germans took away his brother to a concentration camp, Germans left a 'present' in the barn when they were driven out, which was unfortunately discovered by my unwitting grandfather and friend, when they opened the door and the charge behind it detonated, killing one of the boys instantaneously and seriously wounding the other.

But these same Germans survived the battle of Demyansk pocket while they were there, being completely cut off from their own lines for weeks in the dead of winter under constant Russian counter-attacks, with an unfriendly Russian population around them taking revenge when opportunity arose. I can admire at least some of them for their persistence in a battle against all odds, can't I? As irony would have it, I'm sure some of these Germans were likely distant relatives of mine. All the more likely if any of them had last names like Mueller or von Koestner (my german roots). And, to think, aren't all people sort of related somewhere down the line?

That's quite off-topic, sorry. It's personal to me too as you can see. But I don't hold the same bitterness.

[Subwolf]

CCIP, yes I know how the Russians had to suffer, please don't get me wrong.

What I mean by no occupation is that they didn't manage to remove Stalin and the leadership, and they didn't reach Moscow I believe?

[melnibonian]

All of you who lives in the UK, USA, Canada, Australia were not occupied by the nazis for several years. Norway and most of the countries around Germany were. There is no history of occupation in your countries, you don't know what that means.

So I guess you are excused for all these nice words about the Germans during the war. But I hate them for it, and can never forgive them. That will never change.

Subwolf hi

I am Greek and we did suffer as a nation from the Germans. We had in percentages (as we used to be only 7 milion then) the same amount of casualties as Germany and the Soviet Union. People were starving and dropping dead in the streets. Whole villages were burnt and destroyed, people executed for almost no reason. Also don't forget that 30-50,000 Greek citizens of jewish faith were liquidated in the concentration camps. Th whole jewish community of Thesaloniki vanished. That community was there for almost 1000 years, and whithin a few months all of them perished. We also had (and still have) a huge merchant fleet that suffered a lot from the U-Boats. Still we do not hate the Germans. We don't forget but we do forgive. After all a long time has passed and the only thing we can do is to learn from the past and try to make sure it will never happen again. I'm not a religious person but I do like to follow the quote 'Mistakes are human, forgiveness is divine'. Don't let me wrong I do not judge you for not forgiving and keeping the grudge (or anything else you like to call it) against the germans. I just state my opinion which is different to yours. I mean no offence to you and your beliefs, and if I said something that you find offencive or even difficult to accept I am deeply sorry. After all we all exchange opinions here and we all learn something from each other. That's the legacy of WWII. We live in a democratic state and we solve our differences through dialog (well most of the times at least)

[Subwolf]

melnibonian,

We all got our own opinions, and we respect each others in this thread, otherwise it would turn into WW3. This is still today a very sensitive issue.

But I think you should speak for yourself and not on behalf of the Greek people or the Jews, I'm sure that many of them would not agree with you.

[melnibonian]

But I think you should speak for yourself and not on behalf of the Greek people or the Jews, I'm sure that many of them would not agree with you.
I totally agree with you. As I said in all my posts I do speak for myself and I do express my opinion, as I am sure you do as well. I'm sure many will not agree and I hope some will but the important issue here is that we are capable of having a civilised discussion about a difficult issue and exchange opinions while at the same time respecting each other;)

[Cpt. Stewker]

I'm amazed how off topic these threads get on these forums.

[AVGWarhawk]

I'm amazed how off topic these threads get on these forums.

Yeah, she slipped away but the following discussion is pretty good and a lot of viewpoints are brought to the table. These viewpoints from around the globe. It is interesting to read all and see the sentiments concerning the aftermath of WW2. Thus far it has been pretty civil.

[orangewhale]

They may have been motivated by an awful ideology and a 'ruthless sick leader' or whatever but those boys in those iron coffins and i stress the word boys, were not much older than me. In fact some of them would have been 19 year olds like myself. If all you can bring to mind when you think of that is that hitler was a bad man so everyone of his followers was evil then you need to watch das boot again. They went out boys came back men and they had to live with the torture of what they went through the rest of their lives if they lived through it. Don't you think they deserve a bit of credit everyone makes mistakes and they made the mistake of following a misguided ideology but i'll be damned if im gonna call them evil if they had to live through that just to learn what war was really about, rather than some abstract far flung glory seeking stunt that was to literally die for and for your country. Let them have peace in their iron coffins at the bottom of the sea i say. A good history teacher once said to me, in the study of WWII it does no good to concentrate on how evil hitler was because it detracts from the pursuit of the facts that surround that war. Remember wether we are Greek, Jews, or Germans we are all still men and women. Under the sun under the stars there is but one race the human race, we all suffered in that war let it rest and pay respect to the dead and not what makes them different for some far flung ideology.

Hope that makes some interesting point, i don't know, have a ponder on that one people.

[P_Funk]

Well my grandfather, the ruthless former Commando/Tank Commander (sounds crazy eh?), said that he had sympathy for the German soldiers. He says that they were just like him, a bunch of kids drawn into a war begun by a bunch of old men. But he said the SS were different and that he didn't spare them any mercy. Thats pretty understandable I think.

[Safe-Keeper]

[Apparates into thread from noplace]
Just for the record, what I said was a joke and nothing else. I didn't mean to suggest anyone here thought the German u-boat campaign was a "good thing".
[Vanishes out of thread into who-knows-where]

[orangewhale]

I'm not supporting either side but we are all human no matter what we do but it is precisley because we are human which makes us accountable for our actions. And your Grandfather is absolutely right. He's actually quoting a very famous thing Thucydides's said and countless others have said over history who knows if Thucydides started it but it's the truth that old men start wars for the young to fight because only the young can fight long and hard enough to win, sad but true. Anyway, my sh3 isn't working properly so im gonna post something less heavy so that i can work out how to get it running again you know how computers r people, lol. ahh off for a cigarette :p

[AVGWarhawk]

They may have been motivated by an awful ideology and a 'ruthless sick leader' or whatever but those boys in those iron coffins and i stress the word boys, were not much older than me. In fact some of them would have been 19 year olds like myself. If all you can bring to mind when you think of that is that hitler was a bad man so everyone of his followers was evil then you need to watch das boot again. They went out boys came back men and they had to live with the torture of what they went through the rest of their lives if they lived through it. Don't you think they deserve a bit of credit everyone makes mistakes and they made the mistake of following a misguided ideology but i'll be damned if im gonna call them evil if they had to live through that just to learn what war was really about, rather than some abstract far flung glory seeking stunt that was to literally die for and for your country. Let them have peace in their iron coffins at the bottom of the sea i say. A good history teacher once said to me, in the study of WWII it does no good to concentrate on how evil hitler was because it detracts from the pursuit of the facts that surround that war. Remember wether we are Greek, Jews, or Germans we are all still men and women. Under the sun under the stars there is but one race the human race, we all suffered in that war let it rest and pay respect to the dead and not what makes them different for some far flung ideology.

Hope that makes some interesting point, i don't know, have a ponder on that one people.


Your history teacher was not a good one but a great one. It would seem he/she has a pretty good grasp of human folly/nature and looks at all of history as an objective observer. You probably should have taken another class or two with this teacher if you could!

[hyperion2206]

I can't believe you guys, feeling so sorry for the German U-boat crews...

But none of you even mention the heroic civilian men and women who sailed in the merchant fleet during the war, those who gave their lives to save your country from the nazi's, those who sailed for up to five years under a constant threat of getting killed by a torpedo, and could never get a good night's sleep while at sea.

They are the real heroes of the Atlantic war.

Of course it was tough for the Germans too, but remember...they started the war, they wanted it to happen.


I don't think that you're right. The political leaders wanted the war but I don't think that any soldier was very happy to go out and get himself killed. It may sound cynical but these guys just did their job (I'm not talking about any attrocities that were conducted!)! So if you mourn the cillian losses of the Allies you have to remember that there were many German civillians as well, who have been killed.

[HundertzehnGustav]

this whole discussion is useless.

dead people are dead people.
working in a lancaster factory.
producing T-34s in Moskau
building 109s in Berlin
Shooting at germans in Arnheim
killing Jews in auschwitz
Kamikazes towards uss Essex

what ever

i was born in 82 and am happy not to see this

what you all must do is to get over, get some distance

cry a tear and learn your lessons

move on to a better future

not forget the pictures and the sights, the losses in all these wars mankind has fought

NOT FORGET THE WARS

REMEMBER WELL and TELL YOUR CHILDREN

WARN THEM

who was bad and who was right in the Namerica VS Samerica war is not important

the Japs invading China is not important.

6 day war in israel is not important.

important are the lessons you take, research you make and memorize well and tell your children.

THAT is important.

[hyperion2206]

this whole discussion is useless.

dead people are dead people.
working in a lancaster factory.
producing T-34s in Moskau
building 109s in Berlin
Shooting at germans in Arnheim
killing Jews in auschwitz
Kamikazes towards uss Essex

what ever

i was born in 82 and am happy not to see this

what you all must do is to get over, get some distance

cry a tear and learn your lessons

move on to a better future

not forget the pictures and the sights, the losses in all these wars mankind has fought

NOT FORGET THE WARS

REMEMBER WELL and TELL YOUR CHILDREN

WARN THEM

who was bad and who was right in the Namerica VS Samerica war is not important

the Japs invading China is not important.

6 day war in israel is not important.

important are the lessons you take, research you make and memorize well and tell your children.

THAT is important.


How can you learn a lesson if you don't think about the past, if you don't care if something was good or bad. The outcome of every conflict is as important as the way that led to that outcome! You see, this discussion is not useless at all.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, the thread was really concerning what the crewmen were thinking out there in the vast ocean. Somehow it turned into a Nazi is always a big old meanie without feeling. Most have come to the conclusion that they were just like you and me, they wanted to survive, love and laugh again. Just people forced into a war, nothing more, nothing less.

[AVGWarhawk]

this whole discussion is useless.

dead people are dead people.
working in a lancaster factory.
producing T-34s in Moskau
building 109s in Berlin
Shooting at germans in Arnheim
killing Jews in auschwitz
Kamikazes towards uss Essex

what ever

i was born in 82 and am happy not to see this

what you all must do is to get over, get some distance

cry a tear and learn your lessons

move on to a better future

not forget the pictures and the sights, the losses in all these wars mankind has fought

NOT FORGET THE WARS

REMEMBER WELL and TELL YOUR CHILDREN

WARN THEM

who was bad and who was right in the Namerica VS Samerica war is not important

the Japs invading China is not important.

6 day war in israel is not important.

important are the lessons you take, research you make and memorize well and tell your children.

THAT is important.


No one here was stating anything of the wars were important. What is important is that history does not repeat itself, but since you brought up these wars were not important is a faux pa at best. Perhaps not as important to you in your ripe old age of 24. Perhaps you might talk with those that did see what you are glad you did not see. Perhaps you might give a little more respect to those that saw to it you could sit on your arse and babble about WHATEVER and FORGET ABOUT IT and all the IMPORTANT LESSONS we teach our children. You might want to reassess you outlook on you FREEDOMS these WHATEVER'S did for you. Cry a tear and move on. Have a little respect for those on both sides that CRIED A TEAR on their sons flag drapped coffins. Get some distance???? Sounds like you are pretty distant from reality. Talk with those that were there and just see how cry a tear, move on and distance they have taken.

[mookiemookie]

No one here was stating anything of the wars were important. What is important is that history does not repeat itself, but since you brought up these wars were not important is a faux pa at best. Perhaps not as important to you in your ripe old age of 24. Perhaps you might talk with those that did see what you are glad you did not see. Perhaps you might give a little more respect to those that saw to it you could sit on your arse and babble about WHATEVER and FORGET ABOUT IT and all the IMPORTANT LESSONS we teach our children. You might want to reassess you outlook on you FREEDOMS these WHATEVER'S did for you. Cry a tear and move on. Have a little respect for those on both sides that CRIED A TEAR on their sons flag drapped coffins. Get some distance???? Sounds like you are pretty distant from reality. Talk with those that were there and just see how cry a tear, move on and distance they have taken.
I have nothing more to add to what you said, because you said it very well. I would be wrong not to applaud it. http://dragon.stack.nl/%7Enushae/images/clap.gif

Hiding your head in the sand does not make it go away.

[Subwolf]

I can't believe you guys, feeling so sorry for the German U-boat crews...

But none of you even mention the heroic civilian men and women who sailed in the merchant fleet during the war, those who gave their lives to save your country from the nazi's, those who sailed for up to five years under a constant threat of getting killed by a torpedo, and could never get a good night's sleep while at sea.

They are the real heroes of the Atlantic war.

Of course it was tough for the Germans too, but remember...they started the war, they wanted it to happen.


I don't think that you're right. The political leaders wanted the war but I don't think that any soldier was very happy to go out and get himself killed. It may sound cynical but these guys just did their job (I'm not talking about any attrocities that were conducted!)! So if you mourn the cillian losses of the Allies you have to remember that there were many German civillians as well, who have been killed.

I'm sorry, but I don't share your view. A German soldier didn't just do his job, he was fanatic about his sick leader. And so were the German people, look at some war film material and see how they saluted him when he told them that they were the world's pure people, and the rest outside Germany was trash.

I don't think I could care less about the civilians in Berlin and other cities who were bombed day and night, they asked for it.

Btw...this is a dangerous thread, I'm amazed that it hasn't turned into a real argument yet. But one thing is for sure, we will never come to an agreement in here.

[AVGWarhawk]

I can't believe you guys, feeling so sorry for the German U-boat crews...

But none of you even mention the heroic civilian men and women who sailed in the merchant fleet during the war, those who gave their lives to save your country from the nazi's, those who sailed for up to five years under a constant threat of getting killed by a torpedo, and could never get a good night's sleep while at sea.

They are the real heroes of the Atlantic war.

Of course it was tough for the Germans too, but remember...they started the war, they wanted it to happen.


I don't think that you're right. The political leaders wanted the war but I don't think that any soldier was very happy to go out and get himself killed. It may sound cynical but these guys just did their job (I'm not talking about any attrocities that were conducted!)! So if you mourn the cillian losses of the Allies you have to remember that there were many German civillians as well, who have been killed.

I'm sorry, but I don't share your view. A German soldier didn't just do his job, he was fanatic about his sick leader. And so were the German people, look at some war film material and see how they saluted him when he told them that they were the world's pure people, and the rest outside Germany was trash.

I don't think I could care less about the civilians in Berlin and other cities who were bombed day and night, they asked for it.

Btw...this is a dangerous thread, I'm amazed that it hasn't turned into a real argument yet. But one thing is for sure, we will never come to an agreement in here.


Really not about agreement. More at looking at others point of view. Just some thought provoking conversation. True, the civilians deserved it as the Allied civilians were getting their share of it. Perhaps the civilian bombing turned the support of Hiltler into resentment? I think I would be darned pissed if I was being bombed because some nut put me in that position.

[Schatten]

The bombing of Germany and the Blitz in Britain had one thing in common, neither attack seriously affected civilian morale to the extent that the planners had thought it would have. The effect on military personnel is a bit more varied since oftentimes German troops knew a certain city where they had family had been bombed, but no other details, that could affect morale among the troops for certain. But as for the civilians, aside from the grief of having people you knew killed it never came close to breaking overall morale in itself.

As for turning towards resentment towards Hitler I'm not so sure either. Afterall Dresden which absorbed a huge raid remained staunchly pro-Nazi until the very end, even having a multi-day period of mourning (10 days planned I believe) for Hitler after his death.

[mookiemookie]

I don't think I could care less about the civilians in Berlin and other cities who were bombed day and night, they asked for it.
Advocating and or condoning the bombing of women, children, elderly and the infirm is disgusting, regardless of war status.

[Schatten]

I don't think I could care less about the civilians in Berlin and other cities who were bombed day and night, they asked for it.
Advocating and or condoning the bombing of women, children, elderly and the infirm is disgusting, regardless of war status.

As opposed to the shooting, bombing, bayontting, dismembering, etc of youth in the primes of their lives with everything ahead of them? Most soldiers, in all armies, in WWII were just kids that should have been drinking soda (because most of them weren't of legal age at least in the US) and trying to get dates instead of rolling around in the mud trying to kill other kids.

To put it simply Sherman had it right, war is hell. But sometimes war is necessary. War is never pleasant and the military has one mission: to kill people and break things until the other guy says no more. It's just that simple. In a total war like WWII then all manner of disusting things happen, the trick is to have the other guy say no more as quickly as possible to prevent more of your people dying. It's simple, grisly, arithmatic.

[mookiemookie]

I don't think I could care less about the civilians in Berlin and other cities who were bombed day and night, they asked for it.
Advocating and or condoning the bombing of women, children, elderly and the infirm is disgusting, regardless of war status.
As opposed to the shooting, bombing, bayontting, dismembering, etc of youth in the primes of their lives with everything ahead of them? Most soldiers, in all armies, in WWII were just kids that should have been drinking soda (because most of them weren't of legal age at least in the US) and trying to get dates instead of rolling around in the mud trying to kill other kids.

To put it simply Sherman had it right, war is hell. But sometimes war is necessary. War is never pleasant and the military has one mission: to kill people and break things until the other guy says no more. It's just that simple. In a total war like WWII then all manner of disusting things happen, the trick is to have the other guy say no more as quickly as possible to prevent more of your people dying. It's simple, grisly, arithmatic.

While I agree with your points, I think that you're missing mine. You're not making the distinction between combatants and non-combatants. My point is that making non-combatants (like women, children, elderly and the infirm) military targets is tragic.

[AVGWarhawk]

I don't think I could care less about the civilians in Berlin and other cities who were bombed day and night, they asked for it.
Advocating and or condoning the bombing of women, children, elderly and the infirm is disgusting, regardless of war status.
As opposed to the shooting, bombing, bayontting, dismembering, etc of youth in the primes of their lives with everything ahead of them? Most soldiers, in all armies, in WWII were just kids that should have been drinking soda (because most of them weren't of legal age at least in the US) and trying to get dates instead of rolling around in the mud trying to kill other kids.

To put it simply Sherman had it right, war is hell. But sometimes war is necessary. War is never pleasant and the military has one mission: to kill people and break things until the other guy says no more. It's just that simple. In a total war like WWII then all manner of disusting things happen, the trick is to have the other guy say no more as quickly as possible to prevent more of your people dying. It's simple, grisly, arithmatic.

While I agree with your points, I think that you're missing mine. You're not making the distinction between combatants and non-combatants. My point is that making non-combatants (like women, children, elderly and the infirm) military targets is tragic.

Agreed.

[Schatten]

I think we're actually almost on the same wavelength. All war is tragic. I don't condone the intentional targetting of civilians either, that's not how the US military is trained, now. But at the time no one was sure what strategic bombing could or could not accomplish, in many respects the Allies fumbled their way through the bombing campaign for around 2 years before finally realising what was and what wasn't an effective target. The Germans drew many of the same false conclusions earlier through their bombing campaigns in Spain, Poland, France and the Low Countries but the scale didn't allow for definate answers to which sorts of bombing attacks on a strategic level were effective; at least that's how the Allied strategic bombing planners saw it.


The Allied planners knew that the Blitz didn't effectively degrade British morale, but only caused the Brits to get angry, but instead of realising the same thing would happen in Germany they assumed that since they were bombing on a much more massive scale, over a much longer period of time, and with more effective weaponry that it just might. Also civilians were usually not the primary target for Allied raids, the US bombed by daylight because we wanted to hit specific targets, unfortunately the Norden bombsight while much better than anything flying at the time wasn't nearly as precise as promised or hoped for. So civilians did die in those raids, but there was always a military target that was the actual target, they just didn't fly over and drop every bomb aboard because they happened to be over a city and wanted to level it. Yes cities did get levelled, but that was more of a result of inaccurate bombing than a concerted plan to "kill them all." Now granted, even though we didn't set out to completely destroy cities and kill every civilian in them, at the time I know not many tears were shed over collateral damage. They wanted to avoid it as much as humanly possible, but they saw any attack that did damage to the enemy as a positive thing, even if only as an (overestimated by all sides) effect on civilian morale.

As a matter of full disclosure I may be a bit biased here, both my grandfathers were on heavy bombers in WWII. One in the Eighth Air Force as a B-17 crewman, who did a full combat tour in the ETO (including Schweinfurt) and the other who navigated from the US to the UK ferrying over replacement B-17s and B-25s for the operational units, then he did transition training on B-29s and transferred to the PTO but the war ended just prior to his first operational flight. But from what I personally know of the attitudes of the guys that dropped the bombs in Europe, they didn't specifically want to just kill German civilians, they just wanted to win the war as quickly as possible and get home to their families.

[Dowly]

I'm sorry, but I don't share your view. A German soldier didn't just do his job, he was fanatic about his sick leader. And so were the German people, look at some war film material and see how they saluted him when he told them that they were the world's pure people, and the rest outside Germany was trash.

I don't think I could care less about the civilians in Berlin and other cities who were bombed day and night, they asked for it.

Btw...this is a dangerous thread, I'm amazed that it hasn't turned into a real argument yet. But one thing is for sure, we will never come to an agreement in here.
I cant believe that there is as naive people in the world as you are, sir.

You gotta remember, that the Germans were humiliated in the WWI. Of course the people were fanatic, that they had now a chance to revenge that. Much like the Americans are fanatic about the war on terrorism.

Oh and how did they ask for their cities to be bombed? By starting the war? Well, USA attacked Iraq, so it´s ok to bomb USA cities now?

Ban me if you want, but you , sir, are a F u c k i n g a s s h o l e.

[_Seth_]

Easy now, guys! We dont need that sort of things here! (Using the Kaleun-voice)

[Pants]

I'm sorry Seth but SW is a narrow minded fool who does not know what he is talking about.
There is a distinct difference between the SS and the Wehrmacht and to say that civilians deserved what they got is bang out of order :down:

[danlisa]

I don't think I could care less about the civilians in Berlin and other cities who were bombed day and night, they asked for it.

It's all well and good not agreeing with someone else's point of view.

No matter what there is no excuse for targeting civilians/innocents, whatever allegiance they take.

Attitudes like this we're the start/basis of the Nazi regime. It's always nice being on the winning side.

You sir are a ~@#'??! and I hope ~~@ ?*%£":x

[Sailor Steve]

I was taking offense at Dowly's language until I went back and read SubWolf's post in it's entirety.

I agree with Danlisa: this type of thinking is as bigoted and racist as the worst of the Nazi regime. It reflects arrogance, superiority and hate.

[mr chris]

I'm sorry, but I don't share your view. A German soldier didn't just do his job, he was fanatic about his sick leader. And so were the German people, look at some war film material and see how they saluted him when he told them that they were the world's pure people, and the rest outside Germany was trash.

I don't think I could care less about the civilians in Berlin and other cities who were bombed day and night, they asked for it.

Btw...this is a dangerous thread, I'm amazed that it hasn't turned into a real argument yet. But one thing is for sure, we will never come to an agreement in here.
I cant believe that there is as naive people in the world as you are, sir.

You gotta remember, that the Germans were humiliated in the WWI. Of course the people were fanatic, that they had now a chance to revenge that. Much like the Americans are fanatic about the war on terrorism.

Oh and how did they ask for their cities to be bombed? By starting the war? Well, USA attacked Iraq, so it´s ok to bomb USA cities now?

Ban me if you want, but you , sir, are a F u c k i n g a s s h o l e.

Spot on Dowly narrow minded people like Subwolf have not got the first idea of what war is like. Subwolf please go and take your face for a S H I T

[_Seth_]

I'm sorry Seth but SW is a narrow minded fool who does not know what he is talking about.
There is a distinct difference between the SS and the Wehrmacht and to say that civilians deserved what they got is bang out of order :down:

History have shown that civilians often is used as shields agains enemy attacks, and i dont think any of those civilians wanted to be a shield.. I can agree that Subwolf has a rather narrow view on this issue, but we have to respect his opinion in this matter. According to all my education, escpecially in philosophy, where i have studied the issues concerning human rights in war -and peacetime, no civilian deserves to be a target in a conflict. Thats why they are called civilians (as Non-combattants).
I think it would be smart to keep the "verbal" violence down, and instead discuss this in a normal way, with rational arguments, please..:up:

[Dowly]

Sure, I keep it civil. As long as that nutsack learns to respect human life. What he said could be considered as a racism, the same thing if someone says he hates blacks and would like to see them all dead. Same fracking thing.

[mr chris]

Seth im sorry if my language was harsh but SW has really pissed me off. As you say in your post "no civilian deserves to be a target in a conflict."
I know this more than most as you would not belive some of the rules of engaement we have to abide by in the Biritsh army these days. These rules are there to minimize the number of civilian deaths in war.

[_Seth_]

Seth im sorry if my language was harsh but SW has really pissed me off. As you say in your post "no civilian deserves to be a target in a conflict."
I know this more than most as you would not belive some of the rules of engaement we have to abide by in the Biritsh army these days. These rules are there to minimize the number of civilian deaths in war. Its ok, mate. I belive those rules have been invented because of earlier situations (WWII, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Bosnia and so on). I also understand that Subwolf had family members who were lost during WWII. In the light of those events i can understand his rage. I can also understand those who dont agree with him. I know that you, mr chris, and alot of other people here are rational and intelligent people, but the topic thats beeing discusses is a fragile one. We can ask ourselves: Was the crew of the German uboats heroes? Like: Was the hijackers who crashed into WTC heroes? Some say they are, some say not. Its a matter of "point of view".
I spend 4 years in the Norwegian army, but i didnt realise what the army was all about until i quit. We learned that the true heroes was the one that went beyond the call of duty, doing more than anyone could demand from them. Today when i look outside my window, i see heroes everywere. I see people with handicap, that smiles to the world like there is nothing wrong. I see someone giving a hug to another human, or helping an old lady cross the street. In my opinion, thats the REAL heroes in todays world. Let us learn form history, instead of letting it destroy us. The rest of our life starts right......NOW. Live it.:up:

[AS]

Hi all,

I don´t know about how many Germans were fanatics and how many weren´t, but i want to tell you guys something about me and my parents. i´m German, which means there are enough people in the world who are prejudiced against me for my being German. I understand them, it´s an abstract way to associate me with WW2, and although I´ve got nothing to do with it at all it´s only human that some people think about it that way.

Here´s what I have to do wtih WW2:

My Mom was born in 1939, the year when WW2 began. She was a little child, five years old, and all she remembers was that there were night attacks almost ervery night (her home town, Aachen, was almost completely destroyed). Her father was about 20 years, much younger than me now, he was a soldier, but he didn´t like the Nazis. When he spoke his mind he and some fellows were sent to certain death in an impossible mission (they called it "Himmelfahrtskommando", which alludes to the an operation that you wouldn´t survive).

My mom´s mother, a quite simple "working class" woman without any political knowledge or ambition, had to hide in the cellar or in a nearby shelter. One day, when they got out of the shelter, they saw that their house had been destroyed by bombs. They fled to Belgium. When war was over, US soldiers came and gave my 5 year old mom chocolate and chewing gum. That´s what my mom has to do with WW2 and the Nazis.

My father is a Hungarian. The Soviets made the Hungarians fight against Germany. My father was lucky enough to be a radio-operator far off the front, so he wasn´t actually involved in the war and he didn´t kill anyone.

Me, I was born in Cologne, Germany, in 1973. I do know a lot about German history, but I was born 28 years after the end of WW2. I was lucky enough to speak to real U-Boat men. When I talked to them I was 9 or ten and they were 70 or 80. They are all dead now. Although they were old men when I talked to them and war had been over for 50 years, they only reluctantly talked about their experiences. One of them refused to talk about it at all, another one started to cry like a child when he remembered the sailors of the merchants that died in the ocean.

Today, there are almost no eye-witnesses of WW2 left. Today, Germany is a very tolerant, liberal and multicultural society. Sadly, Germany is so neurotic about her past, that she has tended to left-wing politics for years now, which means we lost our common sense and made Germany a society so tolerant that we even looked away when Muslim radicals planned their evil deeds in Germany while being supported by our exaggerated welfare state. That´s the way mankind has always been - they go from one extremity to the other one. All in all I´m quite optimistic, though, that Germany will find its role in Europe and turn back to common sense. Although far from being perfect, it´s a country that I wouldn´t leave. I like my country, although I do criticise our politicians (but who doesn´t?), and I like living here, but I´m not an uncritical patriot.

Cheers, AS

[mr chris]

Seth im sorry if my language was harsh but SW has really pissed me off. As you say in your post "no civilian deserves to be a target in a conflict."
I know this more than most as you would not belive some of the rules of engaement we have to abide by in the Biritsh army these days. These rules are there to minimize the number of civilian deaths in war. Its ok, mate. I belive those rules have been invented because of earlier situations (WWII, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Bosnia and so on). I also understand that Subwolf had family members who were lost during WWII. In the light of those events i can understand his rage. I can also understand those who dont agree with him. I know that you, mr chris, and alot of other people here are rational and intelligent people, but the topic thats beeing discusses is a fragile one. We can ask ourselves: Was the crew of the German uboats heroes? Like: Was the hijackers who crashed into WTC heroes? Some say they are, some say not. Its a matter of "point of view".
I spend 4 years in the Norwegian army, but i didnt realise what the army was all about until i quit. We learned that the true heroes was the one that went beyond the call of duty, doing more than anyone could demand from them. Today when i look outside my window, i see heroes everywere. I see people with handicap, that smiles to the world like there is nothing wrong. I see someone giving a hug to another human, or helping an old lady cross the street. In my opinion, thats the REAL heroes in todays world. Let us learn form history, instead of letting it destroy us. The rest of our life starts right......NOW. Live it.:up:

I full agree with what you say there mate but just because SW lost some family in WWII it does not give him the right to have such a disregard for cillivan life. Im sure the are many people out there that lost family members in wars through the ages, But im sure a very small percentage think like SW.

[melnibonian]

Seth im sorry if my language was harsh but SW has really pissed me off. As you say in your post "no civilian deserves to be a target in a conflict."
I know this more than most as you would not belive some of the rules of engaement we have to abide by in the Biritsh army these days. These rules are there to minimize the number of civilian deaths in war. Its ok, mate. I belive those rules have been invented because of earlier situations (WWII, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Bosnia and so on). I also understand that Subwolf had family members who were lost during WWII. In the light of those events i can understand his rage. I can also understand those who dont agree with him. I know that you, mr chris, and alot of other people here are rational and intelligent people, but the topic thats beeing discusses is a fragile one. We can ask ourselves: Was the crew of the German uboats heroes? Like: Was the hijackers who crashed into WTC heroes? Some say they are, some say not. Its a matter of "point of view".
I spend 4 years in the Norwegian army, but i didnt realise what the army was all about until i quit. We learned that the true heroes was the one that went beyond the call of duty, doing more than anyone could demand from them. Today when i look outside my window, i see heroes everywere. I see people with handicap, that smiles to the world like there is nothing wrong. I see someone giving a hug to another human, or helping an old lady cross the street. In my opinion, thats the REAL heroes in todays world. Let us learn form history, instead of letting it destroy us. The rest of our life starts right......NOW. Live it.:up:

I full agree with what you say there mate but just because SW lost some family in WWII it does not give him the right to have such a disregard for cillivan life. Im sure the are many people out there that lost family members in wars through the ages, But im sure a very small percentage think like SW.
True MrChris:up: :up: :up:

Thankfully there are still people like you, AS and others who do think straight and are not fanatics. :yep: :yep:

[melnibonian]

Hi all,

I don´t know about how many Germans were fanatics and how many weren´t, but i want to tell you guys something about me and my parents. i´m German, which means there are enough people in the world who are prejudiced against me for my being German. I understand them, it´s an abstract way to associate me with WW2, and although I´ve got nothing to do with it at all it´s only human that some people think about it that way.

Here´s what I have to do wtih WW2:

My Mom was born in 1939, the year when WW2 began. She was a little child, five years old, and all she remembers was that there were night attacks almost ervery night (her home town, Aachen, was almost completely destroyed). Her father was about 20 years, much younger than me now, he was a soldier, but he didn´t like the Nazis. When he spoke his mind he and some fellows were sent to certain death in an impossible mission (they called it "Himmelfahrtskommando", which alludes to the an operation that you wouldn´t survive).

My mom´s mother, a quite simple "working class" woman without any political knowledge or ambition, had to hide in the cellar or in a nearby shelter. One day, when they got out of the shelter, they saw that their house had been destroyed by bombs. They fled to Belgium. When war was over, US soldiers came and gave my 5 year old mom chocolate and chewing gum. That´s what my mom has to do with WW2 and the Nazis.

My father is a Hungarian. The Soviets made the Hungarians fight against Germany. My father was lucky enough to be a radio-operator far off the front, so he wasn´t actually involved in the war and he didn´t kill anyone.

Me, I was born in Cologne, Germany, in 1973. I do know a lot about German history, but I was born 28 years after the end of WW2. I was lucky enough to speak to real U-Boat men. When I talked to them I was 9 or ten and they were 70 or 80. They are all dead now. Although they were old men when I talked to them and war had been over for 50 years, they only reluctantly talked about their experiences. One of them refused to talk about it at all, another one started to cry like a child when he remembered the sailors of the merchants that died in the ocean.

Today, there are almost no eye-witnesses of WW2 left. Today, Germany is a very tolerant, liberal and multicultural society. Sadly, Germany is so neurotic about her past, that she has tended to left-wing politics for years now, which means we lost our common sense and made Germany a society so tolerant that we even looked away when Muslim radicals planned their evil deeds in Germany while being supported by our exaggerated welfare state. That´s the way mankind has always been - they go from one extremity to the other one. All in all I´m quite optimistic, though, that Germany will find its role in Europe and turn back to common sense. Although far from being perfect, it´s a country that I wouldn´t leave. I like my country, although I do criticise our politicians (but who doesn´t?), and I like living here, but I´m not an uncritical patriot.

Cheers, AS
Sir you have my full respect:up: :up:

What you say is totally correct. I couldn't express it better myself:up: :up:

[mr chris]

Hi all,

I don´t know about how many Germans were fanatics and how many weren´t, but i want to tell you guys something about me and my parents. i´m German, which means there are enough people in the world who are prejudiced against me for my being German. I understand them, it´s an abstract way to associate me with WW2, and although I´ve got nothing to do with it at all it´s only human that some people think about it that way.

Here´s what I have to do wtih WW2:

My Mom was born in 1939, the year when WW2 began. She was a little child, five years old, and all she remembers was that there were night attacks almost ervery night (her home town, Aachen, was almost completely destroyed). Her father was about 20 years, much younger than me now, he was a soldier, but he didn´t like the Nazis. When he spoke his mind he and some fellows were sent to certain death in an impossible mission (they called it "Himmelfahrtskommando", which alludes to the an operation that you wouldn´t survive).

My mom´s mother, a quite simple "working class" woman without any political knowledge or ambition, had to hide in the cellar or in a nearby shelter. One day, when they got out of the shelter, they saw that their house had been destroyed by bombs. They fled to Belgium. When war was over, US soldiers came and gave my 5 year old mom chocolate and chewing gum. That´s what my mom has to do with WW2 and the Nazis.

My father is a Hungarian. The Soviets made the Hungarians fight against Germany. My father was lucky enough to be a radio-operator far off the front, so he wasn´t actually involved in the war and he didn´t kill anyone.

Me, I was born in Cologne, Germany, in 1973. I do know a lot about German history, but I was born 28 years after the end of WW2. I was lucky enough to speak to real U-Boat men. When I talked to them I was 9 or ten and they were 70 or 80. They are all dead now. Although they were old men when I talked to them and war had been over for 50 years, they only reluctantly talked about their experiences. One of them refused to talk about it at all, another one started to cry like a child when he remembered the sailors of the merchants that died in the ocean.

Today, there are almost no eye-witnesses of WW2 left. Today, Germany is a very tolerant, liberal and multicultural society. Sadly, Germany is so neurotic about her past, that she has tended to left-wing politics for years now, which means we lost our common sense and made Germany a society so tolerant that we even looked away when Muslim radicals planned their evil deeds in Germany while being supported by our exaggerated welfare state. That´s the way mankind has always been - they go from one extremity to the other one. All in all I´m quite optimistic, though, that Germany will find its role in Europe and turn back to common sense. Although far from being perfect, it´s a country that I wouldn´t leave. I like my country, although I do criticise our politicians (but who doesn´t?), and I like living here, but I´m not an uncritical patriot.

Cheers, AS
Sir you have my full respect:up: :up:

What you say is totally correct. I couldn't express it better myself:up: :up:
Yep totaly spot on.:up: :up:

[Jimbuna]

I cant believe that there is as naive people in the world as you are, sir.

You gotta remember, that the Germans were humiliated in the WWI. Of course the people were fanatic, that they had now a chance to revenge that. Much like the Americans are fanatic about the war on terrorism.

Oh and how did they ask for their cities to be bombed? By starting the war? Well, USA attacked Iraq, so it´s ok to bomb USA cities now?

Ban me if you want, but you , sir, are a F u c k i n g a s s h o l e.

I'm sorry Seth but SW is a narrow minded fool who does not know what he is talking about.
There is a distinct difference between the SS and the Wehrmacht and to say that civilians deserved what they got is bang out of order :down:


It's all well and good not agreeing with someone else's point of view.

No matter what there is no excuse for targeting civilians/innocents, whatever allegiance they take.

Attitudes like this we're the start/basis of the Nazi regime. It's always nice being on the winning side.

You sir are a ~@#'??! and I hope ~~@ ?*%£":x


Spot on Dowly narrow minded people like Subwolf have not got the first idea of what war is like. Subwolf please go and take your face for a S H I T


Sure, I keep it civil. As long as that nutsack learns to respect human life. What he said could be considered as a racism, the same thing if someone says he hates blacks and would like to see them all dead. Same fracking thing.


Seth im sorry if my language was harsh but SW has really pissed me off. As you say in your post "no civilian deserves to be a target in a conflict."
I know this more than most as you would not belive some of the rules of engaement we have to abide by in the Biritsh army these days. These rules are there to minimize the number of civilian deaths in war.

Well said fellow kaleuns...I don't think there's much to add really :nope: ...apart from......."GET BACK UNDER YER ROCK AND READ UP ON HUMANITY A LITTLE!!" :yep:

[_Seth_]

Seth im sorry if my language was harsh but SW has really pissed me off. As you say in your post "no civilian deserves to be a target in a conflict."
I know this more than most as you would not belive some of the rules of engaement we have to abide by in the Biritsh army these days. These rules are there to minimize the number of civilian deaths in war. Its ok, mate. I belive those rules have been invented because of earlier situations (WWII, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Bosnia and so on). I also understand that Subwolf had family members who were lost during WWII. In the light of those events i can understand his rage. I can also understand those who dont agree with him. I know that you, mr chris, and alot of other people here are rational and intelligent people, but the topic thats beeing discusses is a fragile one. We can ask ourselves: Was the crew of the German uboats heroes? Like: Was the hijackers who crashed into WTC heroes? Some say they are, some say not. Its a matter of "point of view".
I spend 4 years in the Norwegian army, but i didnt realise what the army was all about until i quit. We learned that the true heroes was the one that went beyond the call of duty, doing more than anyone could demand from them. Today when i look outside my window, i see heroes everywere. I see people with handicap, that smiles to the world like there is nothing wrong. I see someone giving a hug to another human, or helping an old lady cross the street. In my opinion, thats the REAL heroes in todays world. Let us learn form history, instead of letting it destroy us. The rest of our life starts right......NOW. Live it.:up:
I full agree with what you say there mate but just because SW lost some family in WWII it does not give him the right to have such a disregard for cillivan life. Im sure the are many people out there that lost family members in wars through the ages, But im sure a very small percentage think like SW.
Right on, Mr chris. Dont misunderstand me.. I dont think he has such disregard as he claims. War is brutal, and war is H*ll. But he is entitled to have his opinion, no matter how sick or disturbed it is. As long as its frontet in rational and mature ways. I do NOT support attacks on civilians (not attacks at all...Violence is a bad thing), but im happy to discuss and maybe convince disbeliefers about this issue. We cant go around hating people over something that happend 50 - 60 years ago. Its like som vendetta, and doesnt belong in the modern society.

Edit: Why are we discussing? Wasnt GWX released yesterday....?

[HunterICX]

Really Subwolf what you write is just so wrong,

Because in my family there runs German blood (from my moms side)
So you insulted me, but are you sure they desirved it?
Ofcourse they saluted hitler. wouldnt you, if you know if u where against him your head was going to be chopped off. or maybe because after WW1 germany lies in ruins...and someone appears to be there hero?

are you sure the germans civilians desirved to be bombed the crap out of them?
NO! because not all civilians agreed what hitler was doing...my grandmother spit in a Nazi Soldiers face...she almost got herself killed for that one!

Nowhere from my point of view civilians become VALID targets. How fanatic they are with their war leader...the civilians stay untouched...ofcourse thats never the case , in War civilians get a pounding as well. there is no guaranty that as a civilian you are safe on the streets during a War.

if a country goes to war, everyone bears the consecuences. Leaders,Officers, soldiers and civilians everyone suffers casualties. but DONT tell me Subwolf that Civilians desirve to be killed. if you think they do? Then go look for another comunity boy , you dont belong here.

HunterICX

[mr chris]

Seth im sorry if my language was harsh but SW has really pissed me off. As you say in your post "no civilian deserves to be a target in a conflict."
I know this more than most as you would not belive some of the rules of engaement we have to abide by in the Biritsh army these days. These rules are there to minimize the number of civilian deaths in war. Its ok, mate. I belive those rules have been invented because of earlier situations (WWII, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Bosnia and so on). I also understand that Subwolf had family members who were lost during WWII. In the light of those events i can understand his rage. I can also understand those who dont agree with him. I know that you, mr chris, and alot of other people here are rational and intelligent people, but the topic thats beeing discusses is a fragile one. We can ask ourselves: Was the crew of the German uboats heroes? Like: Was the hijackers who crashed into WTC heroes? Some say they are, some say not. Its a matter of "point of view".
I spend 4 years in the Norwegian army, but i didnt realise what the army was all about until i quit. We learned that the true heroes was the one that went beyond the call of duty, doing more than anyone could demand from them. Today when i look outside my window, i see heroes everywere. I see people with handicap, that smiles to the world like there is nothing wrong. I see someone giving a hug to another human, or helping an old lady cross the street. In my opinion, thats the REAL heroes in todays world. Let us learn form history, instead of letting it destroy us. The rest of our life starts right......NOW. Live it.:up:
I full agree with what you say there mate but just because SW lost some family in WWII it does not give him the right to have such a disregard for cillivan life. Im sure the are many people out there that lost family members in wars through the ages, But im sure a very small percentage think like SW.
Right on, Mr chris. Dont misunderstand me.. I dont think he has such disregard as he claims. War is brutal, and war is H*ll. But he is entitled to have his opinion, no matter how sick or disturbed it is. As long as its frontet in rational and mature ways. I do NOT support attacks on civilians (not attacks at all...Violence is a bad thing), but im happy to discuss and maybe convince disbeliefers about this issue. We cant go around hating people over something that happend 50 - 60 years ago. Its like som vendetta, and doesnt belong in the modern society.

Edit: Why are we discussing? Wasnt GWX released yesterday....?

No worries Seth im not missunderstanding you at all mate. :up:

[melnibonian]

Really Subwolf what you write is just so wrong,

Because in my family there runs German blood (from my moms side)
So you insulted me, but are you sure they desirved it?
Ofcourse they saluted hitler. wouldnt you, if you know if u where against him your head was going to be chopped off. or maybe because after WW1 germany lies in ruins...and someone appears to be there hero?

are you sure the germans civilians desirved to be bombed the crap out of them?
NO! because not all civilians agreed what hitler was doing...my grandmother spit in a Nazi Soldiers face...she almost got herself killed for that one!

Nowhere from my point of view civilians become VALID targets. How fanatic they are with their war leader...the civilians stay untouched...ofcourse thats never the case , in War civilians get a pounding as well. there is no guaranty that as a civilian you are safe on the streets during a War.

if a country goes to war, everyone bears the consecuences. Leaders,Officers, soldiers and civilians everyone suffers casualties. but DONT tell me Subwolf that Civilians desirve to be killed. if you think they do? Then go look for another comunity boy , you dont belong here.

HunterICX
True mate true. Spot on:up: :up:

I think we can see from the answers that Mr Subwolf is the minority here. So we either are all Nazis and we don't know it, or with all due respect there is a fault in his line of thinking;)

[_Seth_]

@ mr chris: Puhh...was afraid that my bad english would be misinterpreted..:lol:

[mr chris]

@ mr chris: Puhh...was afraid that my bad english would be misinterpreted..:lol:

Not at all mate we are all cool:up: :up:

[_Seth_]

@ mr chris: Puhh...was afraid that my bad english would be misinterpreted..:lol:
Not at all mate we are all cool:up: :up:
Good to hear! If you'll excuse me, i have a patrol out of Jakarta in about..right now!! GWX RULES!!:up::up:

[TheSatyr]

War is the ultimate act of terrorism. In the name of War people can lose their humanity and racial biases can become magnified. (Both sides in the PTO). In War,there are both acts of courage and acts of cowerdice,acts of honor and acts of depravity. There is no such thing as a "Good War".

War is sheer barbarism,but sadly there are times when war becomes necessary.

[AVGWarhawk]

Hi all,

I don´t know about how many Germans were fanatics and how many weren´t, but i want to tell you guys something about me and my parents. i´m German, which means there are enough people in the world who are prejudiced against me for my being German. I understand them, it´s an abstract way to associate me with WW2, and although I´ve got nothing to do with it at all it´s only human that some people think about it that way.

Here´s what I have to do wtih WW2:

My Mom was born in 1939, the year when WW2 began. She was a little child, five years old, and all she remembers was that there were night attacks almost ervery night (her home town, Aachen, was almost completely destroyed). Her father was about 20 years, much younger than me now, he was a soldier, but he didn´t like the Nazis. When he spoke his mind he and some fellows were sent to certain death in an impossible mission (they called it "Himmelfahrtskommando", which alludes to the an operation that you wouldn´t survive).

My mom´s mother, a quite simple "working class" woman without any political knowledge or ambition, had to hide in the cellar or in a nearby shelter. One day, when they got out of the shelter, they saw that their house had been destroyed by bombs. They fled to Belgium. When war was over, US soldiers came and gave my 5 year old mom chocolate and chewing gum. That´s what my mom has to do with WW2 and the Nazis.

My father is a Hungarian. The Soviets made the Hungarians fight against Germany. My father was lucky enough to be a radio-operator far off the front, so he wasn´t actually involved in the war and he didn´t kill anyone.

Me, I was born in Cologne, Germany, in 1973. I do know a lot about German history, but I was born 28 years after the end of WW2. I was lucky enough to speak to real U-Boat men. When I talked to them I was 9 or ten and they were 70 or 80. They are all dead now. Although they were old men when I talked to them and war had been over for 50 years, they only reluctantly talked about their experiences. One of them refused to talk about it at all, another one started to cry like a child when he remembered the sailors of the merchants that died in the ocean.

Today, there are almost no eye-witnesses of WW2 left. Today, Germany is a very tolerant, liberal and multicultural society. Sadly, Germany is so neurotic about her past, that she has tended to left-wing politics for years now, which means we lost our common sense and made Germany a society so tolerant that we even looked away when Muslim radicals planned their evil deeds in Germany while being supported by our exaggerated welfare state. That´s the way mankind has always been - they go from one extremity to the other one. All in all I´m quite optimistic, though, that Germany will find its role in Europe and turn back to common sense. Although far from being perfect, it´s a country that I wouldn´t leave. I like my country, although I do criticise our politicians (but who doesn´t?), and I like living here, but I´m not an uncritical patriot.

Cheers, AS
Sir you have my full respect:up: :up:

What you say is totally correct. I couldn't express it better myself:up: :up:
Yep totaly spot on.:up: :up:


Well gents, nothing like getting it from the horses mouth!!!! AS is sitting right in the heart of this discussion. My hat of to you and your family that endured the war and such a long time to live under the thumb of it. But you know, I have zero, silch, none, nadda prejudice against you or any of the German peoples. Sure, my Uncle was shot down over Kiel, his first and last mission as the B-17 exploded on the IP run. But does this make you responsible and someone I need to dislike. Hell no! I would prefer to sit in a bar with you, drink some fine German beer and talk about family history.:up: It is important to remember the human factor in all of it. Like I stated back a few posts, those that were dire enemies over 50 years ago had a chance of a life time to meet their challenger from the war and these folks walked away great friends. It must has been truely an awesome experience.

[Pants]

Well gents, nothing like getting it from the horses mouth!!!! AS is sitting right in the heart of this discussion. My hat of to you and your family that endured the war and such a long time to live under the thumb of it. But you know, I have zero, silch, none, nadda prejudice against you or any of the German peoples. Sure, my Uncle was shot down over Kiel, his first and last mission as the B-17 exploded on the IP run. But does this make you responsible and someone I need to dislike. Hell no! I would prefer to sit in a bar with you, drink some fine German beer and talk about family history.:up: It is important to remember the human factor in all of it. Like I stated back a few posts, those that were dire enemies over 50 years ago had a chance of a life time to meet their challenger from the war and these folks walked away great friends. It must has been truely an awesome experience.

Hear Hear..could NOT have said it better myself:rock:

[melnibonian]

Well gents, nothing like getting it from the horses mouth!!!! AS is sitting right in the heart of this discussion. My hat of to you and your family that endured the war and such a long time to live under the thumb of it. But you know, I have zero, silch, none, nadda prejudice against you or any of the German peoples. Sure, my Uncle was shot down over Kiel, his first and last mission as the B-17 exploded on the IP run. But does this make you responsible and someone I need to dislike. Hell no! I would prefer to sit in a bar with you, drink some fine German beer and talk about family history.:up: It is important to remember the human factor in all of it. Like I stated back a few posts, those that were dire enemies over 50 years ago had a chance of a life time to meet their challenger from the war and these folks walked away great friends. It must has been truely an awesome experience.
Once more correct and to the point.:up: Thanks you speak for all of us here and we could not have said it any better:yep: :yep: :up:

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Well gents, nothing like getting it from the horses mouth!!!! AS is sitting right in the heart of this discussion. My hat of to you and your family that endured the war and such a long time to live under the thumb of it. But you know, I have zero, silch, none, nadda prejudice against you or any of the German peoples. Sure, my Uncle was shot down over Kiel, his first and last mission as the B-17 exploded on the IP run. But does this make you responsible and someone I need to dislike. Hell no! I would prefer to sit in a bar with you, drink some fine German beer and talk about family history.:up: It is important to remember the human factor in all of it. Like I stated back a few posts, those that were dire enemies over 50 years ago had a chance of a life time to meet their challenger from the war and these folks walked away great friends. It must has been truely an awesome experience.

Very well put sir :up: a sentiment obviously shared by more than a few in this thread :yep: :arrgh!:

[Subwolf]

Well look at this, the thread took off after all.

Take a closer look at my other posting. I didn't say that they deserved it, I said that I couldn't care less about them. Nobody deserves something like this, but they did ask for it, no question about that. And I'm afraid that this was the way that most people in the allied countries were thinking.

There was a reason for the allied bomb raids over German cities around the clock, to stop the Nazi regime. Otherwise the German people, the civilians, would continue to produce more Nazi leaders and soldiers. Children had to suffer, but there was no way to avoid that.

As I said before, and as you all know, the large majority of the German people during the war supported Hitler and agreed on everything he did. This includes the order to exterminate all "unclean" people according to the Nazi's, like the jews, blacks, homosexuals and so on. Somebody in this discussion called me a racist, well talk about missing the target. In my opinion nazism is probably the root of racism of today.

I will never change what I mean about the German people of WW2, but I got no problems with the people of today. They are not to be blamed for their country's past.

Dowly, it looks like you were hit by one of my torpedoes. I'm disappointed that you can sink to the lowest level of discussion. But then again you may be excused since you represents a country which was an allied of Germany for much of the war. This is the reason why the Fins are not very popular in Norway. And if you continue like this you will simply end up on my ignore list, probably joined by Danlisa. Maybe you should do the same btw...

[mr chris]

I don't think I could care less about the civilians in Berlin and other cities who were bombed day and night, they asked for it.
Btw...this is a dangerous thread, I'm amazed that it hasn't turned into a real argument yet. But one thing is for sure, we will never come to an agreement in here.

I think this sums up what your saying. The Civillians in the German citys did not asked to be bomb into the next world. You seem to forget Hilter was a dictator the german people had no say in his rule. when they did try to kill him off he killed everyone he tought was against him even one of his best soilders Rommel.
So no they did not ask for it.
You have a go at Dowly for resorting to the lowest level of discussion, as you say.
But how else is Dowly surposed to talk to a idiot like yourself.
I just live in hope that idoits like yourself are the small minoraty.

[melnibonian]

And I'm afraid that this was the way that most people in the allied countries were thinking.
And that makes it acceptable right???? If this is an argument I don't really know what to say

In my opinion nazism is probably the root of racism of today.
So you're telling us that before the 1930s there was no racism??? You're telling us that jews and other nationalities were not subjected to it??? I suggest you check your facts. Racism unfortunatelly is part of humman nature and it will always be there. The only way to minimise it is through education.

They are not to be blamed for their country's past.
We totally agree in this one.

[Subwolf]

And that makes it acceptable right???? If this is an argument I don't really know what to say
Well if this was the general opinion of the British people back then I can't understand how Britain survived the war..


So you're telling us that before the 1930s there was no racism??? You're telling us that jews and other nationalities were not subjected to it??? I suggest you check your facts. Racism unfortunatelly is part of humman nature and it will always be there. The only way to minimise it is through education.

That's true, but you know what I mean.
This is just something you say to blow up the discussion even more :p

[mr chris]

And that makes it acceptable right???? If this is an argument I don't really know what to say
Well if this was the general opinion of the British people back then I can't understand how Britain survived the war..


So you're telling us that before the 1930s there was no racism??? You're telling us that jews and other nationalities were not subjected to it??? I suggest you check your facts. Racism unfortunatelly is part of humman nature and it will always be there. The only way to minimise it is through education.

That's true, but you know what I mean.
This is just something you say to blow up the discussion even more :p

Know i dont know what you mean. Mel is not saying this to blow up the debate.
He is saying it as it is a fact. You should get your facts right before spouting more divel from your mouth.

[melnibonian]

Well if this was the general opinion of the British people back then I can't understand how Britain survived the war..
The fact that that was the way people in Great Britain thought at the time doesn't mean they were correct, and doesn't mean that we accept this line of thinking today.

That's true, but you know what I mean.
This is just something you say to blow up the discussion even more :p
I do know what you mean Sir but I do not like the incinuation you make. I do not try to blow up the discussion. I was always very polite and kept the level of disagrement civil. I'm affraid that you are deliberatelly provocative and I do not wish to follow you down that road. Please let's just end this thread here and let us agree that we disagree.

[Subwolf]

melnibonian, I'm provoced by the fact that some of you can sit here and defend those, this time I can use the word a s s h o l e s too...I'm refering to the Nazis.

Again, Hitler started the war, the German people were with him...they had to take the consequences. That's how it is and that's how it ends. Nobody can deny that.

[melnibonian]

melnibonian, I'm provoced by the fact that some of you can sit here and defend those, this time I can use the word a s s h o l e s too...I'm refering to the Nazis.

If you are provoced by Mr Hitler go and sort it out with him. i doubt anyone here is supporting him. We just don't see the world in Black vs White Good vs Evil, that's all. We believe that there are shades of grey in everything. I'm asking you for the last time to end the thread here. Let's just be civil and agree to disagree. Please it's for the best I think

[Gizzmoe]

Thread closed. The amount of name-calling in this thread was unacceptable.