View Full Version : Fox Hunting one year on
British hunting ban considered ineffective (http://www.britainnews.net/story/e3a36b0470467a06)
Well folks a year on and this is a hot topic here in England. Is the law a joke full of loop holes, where do you stand on this issue?
This issue and the war in the gulf will be the only thing that useless pm of ours will be remembered for.I come from a rural background and have seen what a fox will do to a flock of sheep.Angling and shooting will be next in line to go.
I was in favour of anti hutting but now this government has made a right pigs ear of the issue with there half hearted law. I do see that foxes must be controlled and hunting is a form of control, I feel it needs to be reevaluated without the government sticking it nose in where it's not wanted.
British hunting ban considered ineffective (http://www.britainnews.net/story/e3a36b0470467a06)
Well folks a year on and this is a hot topic here in England. Is the law a joke full of loop holes, where do you stand on this issue?
The link you give doesnt explain much about loop holes.. it seems that the law is just basically being ignored!
I really dont know much about the sport.. other than the TV stereotypes we are fed over here (in the colonies :D ).. you know people wearing red suits speaking with overly posh accents making cavalry charges against some terrified little beast. Is this actually cruel? is there more to the "hunt"? i.e. are they using howitzers once the beast is cornered? do these foxes have ties to Al Queda?
If the only thing that really happens is the fox gets chased about, why not form the BSAFO! (British Society Against Fox Obesity).
StdDev, I will try and find some info to post.
OK found two
Is the fox hunting ban working? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4409760.stm)
The banned rode on (http://www.guardian.co.uk/hunt/Story/0,,1941183,00.html)
StdDev, I will try and find some info to post.
Right-o!.. and wear your red hunting suit! :p
bookworm_020
11-21-06, 06:03 PM
If they still want to hunt foxes and be cheered on doing so, come to Australia!! some of your breatheran thought it would be nice to hunt them, so they let some loose (as well as 6 rabbits). They weren't the best of shots, so some of them got away. The result is both rabbits and foxes are now doing great damage to the native animal population.
That's it!! I come and release some Australian possums in England, you'll love them, just ask the New Zealanders!!!
Well, what can I say? The Fox Hunting ban was less a 'lets save the fwufy wufy animals' and more of a class dig at the perceived privilage of the many who indulge in such a 'sport'. The idea that only 'posh people' go foxhunting is utter bull****; here in the midlands all social classes are involved either riding, running with the hounds or merely spectating following by car or on foot.
I used to go with my parents and grandparents most weekends during hunting season when I was a lad, so I've see most of it up close and personal. I'm older now and have decided that that kind of hunting is not for me; as days out go it was usually cold wet and miserable, especially if you're trying to follow on foot :o
But having said that, I don't think I have the right to deny anyone else participating if they so wish.
Hunting is a tricky issue, further muddied by townies who know nothing of real country life other than the fluffy side seen in 'All Creatures Great & Small' or portrayed by Animal Rights loonies and politicians with more invective than sense.
How cruel it is to chase a poor defenseless animal half to death and then rip it to bits with a pack of rabidly savage hounds who would just as soon eat babies as a fox.
WRONG
How cruel is it to give the natural selection survival of the fittest and smartest a chance to live another day, once a week for a few months of the year?
Hello? Have you been paying attention in class? The natrual world about us is a savage and cruel place and as a species so are we.
Compare that to the other means of fox population control, indiscriminate killers all:
Gassing (mmm asphyxia and not just of foxes either)
Trapping (see also the snare- nasty awful, slow way to die, for many animals)
Poisoning (takes a few days as your insides are slowly liquefied, like my cat who ate some poisoned bait- how was he to know it was only for foxes?)
Shooting (every man jack and his son, blazing away at anything that moves with scant thought for the idea of a humane kill or caution lest he decimate totally the wild fox numbers)
In my experience of fox hunting 9 out of 10 times the fox gets away unscathed and on the times it does get cought by the pack, there is usually a pack leader who gets there first and bites the fox on the back of the neck, severing the spninal column. Death is pretty much instantaneous. It's only the aftermath when the rest of the pack rushes in that you see (as propaganda in animal rights films) the carcass being fought over.
My feeling is that looking at the 'alternatively humane' methods outlined in bold above, the ban on hunting with dogs in the UK had nothing whatsoever to do with prevention of cruelty to animals through (ill named) blood-sports.
I guess the lesson here is that you can't be seen to enjoy yourself in such an enterprise, no no no.
At the end of the day, dogs wil chase foxes and foxes will run. It's a simple as that, if you'll forgive the pun: it's a dog eat dog world... or should that be fox? It's instinctual for them to do so and like so many other things we humans have understood and bent to our own ends hunting with dogs is just another extension of our use of the natural world around us.
My mum still goes 'drag-hunting' during the season, so some aspects of the sport have not really changed at all, but she still encounters anti's who despite having succeeded in their aim to ban the hunting of foxes with dogs, still shout obscenities and threaten person and property with damage: "we know where you live you evil ********** bitch, we're going to get you and yours!" etc etc Standing there with their petty video cameras trying to prove that some hunts are breaking the law, then going home to either cash their giros or back to 'mummy & daddy' in kent. It's all getting a bit old hat now; whatever happened to having victory with grace? Meanwhile the fate of many packs of hounds is at risk. They can't be had as pets, (at least not by ordinary folk as they are too lively and need a sh1t load of exercise) and places like the RSPCA are not interested in them, so baring some charitable folk, some of these magnificent animals will have to be destroyed for no good reason other than expediency.
What's next for the antis to give their lives, devoid of meaning without an axe to grind, purpose? Fishing? Shooting? Don't doubt it, if you enjoy either of those two, sometime in the next 5-10 years some lefty do gooder liberal with try and stop you doing it or hamstring you in pursuit of it.
But I digress. I am not in favor of this meddlesome ban, not from the outset, but majority rule is mob rule and everyone is entitled their opinion, except for blair who seems to think along the lines of 'when I want your opinion, I'll give it to you'.
badhat17
11-22-06, 12:34 AM
StdDev, I will try and find some info to post. Right-o!.. and wear your red hunting suit! :p
It's pink actualy you dumb colonial. :D
It's pink actualy you dumb colonial. :D
Actually the picture in Steeds link showed them wearing blue jackets. Explain that one you Red Coat. :D
StdDev, I will try and find some info to post. Right-o!.. and wear your red hunting suit! :p
It's pink actualy you dumb colonial. :D
Right.. everyone see tha ?.. Eeee's oppressin me! Its bloody colonial oppression it is! Whats next ?.. the Black Hole of Derbyshire!!?? :lol:
StdDev, I will try and find some info to post. Right-o!.. and wear your red hunting suit! :p
It's pink actualy you dumb colonial. :D
Right.. everyone see tha ?.. Eeee's oppressin me! Its bloody colonial oppression it is! Whats next ?.. the Black Hole of Derbyshire!!?? :lol:
Lets dump some tea in the harbor. That'll show 'em.
Lets dump some tea in the harbor. That'll show 'em.
Not again. :roll:
badhat17
11-22-06, 04:28 PM
It's pink actualy you dumb colonial. :D
Actually the picture in Steeds link showed them wearing blue jackets. Explain that one you Red Coat. :D
I think the explanation for that is that those wearing blue haven't earnt the right to wear pink. More social climbing still required. :D
Anyhow I have an urgent appointment right now, some colonial types are in desperate need of oppression so I'm orff to give them a damn good thrashing.
Pink is worn by the huntsman,the rest of the field may wear different clothing but there is usually a clothing standard for each hunt.
Anyhow I have an urgent appointment right now, some colonial types are in desperate need of oppression so I'm orff to give them a damn good thrashing.
Harumph, I thought we fixed your wagons at Yorktown. ;)
http://www.rootsweb.com/~nchyde/SPIRIT.GIF
That should do it.. huh August !?
Captain Nemo
11-24-06, 07:21 AM
I'm not against the hunting of foxes, but what I am against is the method used to hunt them.
No matter what jumpy says, if fox hunting was a predominantly working class pastime, it would have been banned years ago as being barbaric and cruel.
Thats my opinion anyway.
Nemo
No matter what jumpy says, if fox hunting was a predominantly working class pastime
I never said that.
Captain Nemo
11-24-06, 08:13 AM
No matter what jumpy says, if fox hunting was a predominantly working class pastime
I never said that.
Not exactly, but you expressed a view by stating "The idea that only 'posh people' go foxhunting is utter bull****" which implies that there is an even mixture of social classes that enjoy fox hunting. My post merely disagrees with this assumption (I'm not saying that no working class people go fox hunting, but I would think they are in the minority) and argues that if this sport were dominated by the working class it would have been banned years ago.
Nemo
The problem is as jumpy has pointed out the other four options are not a good way to kill a fox, so we are left with hunting as the only method of control.
PS: Is it true most hunts kill the old dog fox?
Captain Nemo
11-24-06, 09:06 AM
The problem is as jumpy has pointed out the other four options are not a good way to kill a fox, so we are left with hunting as the only method of control.
From what jumpy says, I quote "In my experience of fox hunting 9 out of 10 times the fox gets away unscathed", nor is traditional fox hunting an effective method of controlling the fox population. If fox hunting only results in a 10% reduction in the fox population, and this assumes there are enough hunts per year to keep up with the reproduction rate of the average fox, then why bother at all?
Edit: Just to add that from the number of dead foxes that I see on the roads of Britain, in the countryside and in towns, cars and lorries are probably the most effective method of keeping the fox population down.
Nemo
No matter what jumpy says, if fox hunting was a predominantly working class pastime
I never said that.
Not exactly, but you expressed a view by stating "The idea that only 'posh people' go fox hunting is utter bull****" which implies that there is an even mixture of social classes that enjoy fox-hunting. My post merely disagrees with this assumption (I'm not saying that no working class people go fox hunting, but I would think they are in the minority) and argues that if this sport were dominated by the working class it would have been banned years ago.
Nemo
hehe, that did come across a little p r i c k l y (sweary filter gets this one wrong), didn't it :oops::lol:
Without getting into a big rant for/against hunting with dogs I shall try and address the last two posts based upon what I have seen and on some of the opinions expressed in the county (as opposed to the connurb) as far as the hunting topic goes:
PS: Is it true most hunts kill the old dog fox? In as much as only the smartest and fittest have a chance to survive and 'out-fox' the hunt, yes. The old and the sick are invariably brought to bay without an overly prolonged chase. The odds might be stacked slightly against the fox but by no means are they certain of an outcome either way.
From what jumpy says, I quote "In my experience of fox hunting 9 out of 10 times the fox gets away unscathed", nor is traditional fox hunting an effective method of controlling the fox population. If fox hunting only results in a 10% reduction in the fox population, and this assumes there are enough hunts per year to keep up with the reproduction rate of the average fox, then why bother at all? True, hunting with dogs is not 100% effective. And that's exactly the point. The major issue and disadvantage with the other methods I outline in my first post are twofold:
1) Except perhaps for shooting done by professionals who understand the land and the it's needs as a habitat and an economy (the large majority of local shooters are probably farmers and the like who will shoot any animal on sight that they consider to be vermin or a pest, not always with regard to the impact that will have on long-term population numbers), they are indiscriminate killers. Not a good thing when only one species is targeted for culling.
2) The aim of the hunt is not to totally remove foxes from the food chain (which they are now at the top of due to humans wiping out all of the wolves and bears in this country) but to keep a check on the overall numbers in a given area of land. Fox-hunting (and it's other derivatives like beagle hunting which is all done on foot) is only practised during the autumn/winter and to some extent early spring months, allowing for the natural breeding cycle of the animals to take place unimpeded (like fishing there is a 'season' where certain species are not allowed to be hunted/fished for). In this respect it is a good thing that fox-hunting is not always successful. After all, one solution would be to drive foxes to extinction by all and any means, removing them as pests from the countryside. Obviously this is clearly not acceptable but is a risk with uncontrolled culling by many and diverse means with no clear limits placed upon the numbers taken or the time of year when this is acceptable to do so.
Bear in mind the hunt will not just pack up an go home when one fox is either caught or manages to escape. They usually start out in the early morning between 7 and 9 am and will most likely go on until dark.
A good example of the yo-yo effect that uncontrolled hunting and subsequent moratoria on hunting has is the ban on badger baiting (which I do not agree with - the baiting not the ban) is that the overall numbers of the animals went from teetering on the brink of being wiped out in the UK due to uncontrolled hunting, to exploding to such an extent that numbers are such that now, to protect dairy and beef herds from communicable diseases like tuberculosis (bovine TB) carried by badgers, licensed culling has been reintroduced, either by shooting individual animals over several nights to remove the badger population in an area, or by stopping up the entrances to a sett and then pumping cyanide gas (or other similar) into the sett, thus disposing of an entire population at one stroke.
A bitch fox might have one litter of cubs per year, maybe 3-4 cubs per litter and perhaps only 2 or three might survive to adulthood. I cannot tell you specific numbers of fox populations in a given area, neither I suspect could the ministry of agriculture and fisheries (or whatever the hell it's called now).
Suffice to say I am of the opinion that whilst some people might find the idea of fox hunting distasteful, it is by far and a way the most fair means of population control available. Indeed, odd though it may seem, the hunt probably does more to contribute to and ensure the continuation of the fox population in the wild as a whole than it does to exterminate them as individuals.
It is often difficult to assimilate the widely differing views on a subject like this and over the years I have reached my own conclusions regarding the matter and unfortunately this means I have no real respect for many of those 'antis'' who aggressively oppose hunting, this is largely due to their methods and overall demeanour where rational debate is concerned. The majority of people who seem to think it's a bad idea (I'm not inferring anyone here) have never been on a hunt to see for themselves, nor have they any real experience of what country and farming life is really all about, modern life being so very detached from the more visceral reality of where our food comes from and the management of the land on which the majority of it is produced. They rely on words from the mouths of others who (lets face it) are neither the most honest and unbiased or law-abiding individuals around. The notion is blinkered and quite honestly often violent in its intent.
If it were not for this last I might find the whole thing quite amusing; I have a good friend who is a vegetarian, she has never been to 'the countryside' for more than an afternoon (she doesn't like the smell or the mud :lol: ) but none the less she thinks she knows better, morally speaking, how 'things ought to be done there' with regards to animal husbandry and also the subject of this topic which she speaks out darkly against and with some conviction. Anyway, hehe, she has a cat; now we all know cats sometimes eat grass to aid digestion but are predominantly carnivores. Because of this grass eating and her own convictions regarding meat she only feeds her cat 'vegetarian' cat food :rotfl: truly this has to be one of the most conceited things I have ever seen and I'm not sure the cat is entirely happy about it either (he really likes pork scratchings which I occasionally slip him when she's not looking).
Sadly all of this is one of those things which will not change or be reconciled easily if at all. In the past I have tried to engage her in debate about vegetarianism, hunting and other things she has 'feelings' about (feelings and not reasoned thought are the real problem here) and I invariably meet with a stubborn refusal to acknowledge anything other than the fact that I obviously must only be one step away from stabbing babies with a bayonet and burning straw hooches to the ground for fun in my spare time. This kind of thinking is more prevalent as the years go by and people become less attached to reality, being more concerned with their playstation2's and their ipods and whatnot. Eventually much of the old ways will disappear completely, and largely to the detriment of many of the cultural traditions, environmental and ecological matters. My advice to anyone who wants to know more about things like this is to go and see for yourself don't take my word for it or anybody else's, not just one fleeting glimpse or relying on someone else's stance on the issue but a good long view. It's not everyone's cup of tea I grant you, but at least you can say "I went and saw for myself" and really nobody else can say any better than that.
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