Does European Islam Mean Islamic Europe?

[Rockstar]

http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.25132,filter.all/pub_detail.asp

...The challenge starts with demographic trends. European birthrates have fallen way below replacement levels. In today’s Italy, for example, there are barely half as many children under the age of five as there were in 1970. As the proportion of old people increases and the proportion of young workers declines, European welfare states face financial strains that make our own problems with Social Security look mild and manageable.

In practice, Steyn warns, Europe is trending toward societies that are not so much multicultural as bicultural–split between a growing minority that embraces Muslim discipline and identity, and a bewildered, anxious, aging population that does not. Bicultural societies are rarely stable. [...]

[DAB]

Thats supposed to be an accademic piece!? Theres no sourcing, or indeed statements that are provable, and a lot of very general stereotyping. Something like that would barely pass (without honours) in most Universities. If I said, "Americans are ignorent people who don't own passports", there would be uproar among many here. Why is this document any better?

Right, time for myth demolishing. There are at the last count around 20million people who are considered Muslim living in the European Union. That is 4% of the entire EU population. When you take into account the fact that Europeans are currently not breeding at that great a level, then at most (based on current immigration figures), Muslims will make up just 10% of the EU population.

All of this seems to have the knickers of the right wing think tanks of the United States in a twist. These are, by the way, the same right wing think tanks that tend to say Europeans have no right to comment on US internal affairs! Names like Eurabia, Londonstan have sprung up in the US media - which is frankly scaremongering. And when you look at the people who are making these claims, Bernard Lewis (Dick Chenneys favourate "Middle East expert") for example - you find that they are pretty unpleasent pieces of work often with an axe to grind (Bernard Lewis for example denies the Armean Genocide)

To be frank, the paper all of this stupidity is written on is only useful as substitute toilet paper.

First of all: The claims (like those on this forum) that muslims in the West eat children in the night or something like that. Some people cited events such as various terrorist attacks, riots in France etc. To be frank, thats litrolly a skin deep analysis of the problem, which if applied to any other group anywhere in the world would be rightly derrided as a racist methodology.

Those kids behind the riots in France. Almost all of them would not know what the inside of a Mosque looked like if they lived next to one. They are secular, westernised kids (probably second or third generation immigrants) The people recruited into terrorist cells are well off, and don't tend to live in immigrent Gheatos. Any hard evidence (eg, primary investigations, not sudo-philiosophical meusings) actually shows that First Generation Immigrents are less radical then their 2nd and 3rd generation counterparts. And despite a uniform religious umbrella, an Asian Muslim living in Britain has very little in common with a North African Muslim living in France. Yet they are given the same label and derrided as a common ememy by many in the United States and Europe who should know better.

And to say these people are not intergrating is to selectively ignore a considerable ammount of evidence. Anyone whose gone to a Conservative Party meeting in the UK recently can't have failed to notice a large number of Muslims rising through the ranks of that party. Muslims are studying alongside their Christian, Jewish and Agnostic counterparts in British Universities. In France, 25% of Muslim women in each generation marry non-muslim French men. Thats more then any other ethnic group in Europe.

So, where is this evidence for an International conspirosy, which all Muslim people are apart of. A conspirasy so hennous that we have to repeal their human rights and make them wear identifying marks. Can someone provide me with any hard evidence (Jihard Watch is not hard evidence) or proof.

[Rockstar]

Well first off it's a book review not an academic piece.

secondly what do you know of Islam you defend it like it was your own?

Population growth is not something to just shrug off as some minor blip on the radar. Western Europe has gone from a Muslim population of 250,000, 50 years ago, to 20 million today. According to Robert S. Leiken, director of the Immigration and National Security Program at the Nixon Center, higher Muslim birthrates combined with Muslim immigration have led the U.S. National Intelligence Council to project that Europe's Muslim population will double by 2025. As a result, demographics may bring about what the Moors and Ottoman Empire couldn't: a Muslim Europe."


Here from a muslim website they boast

According to a report issued by The International Center for Population Studies, an affiliate of Al-Azhar University of Cairo, Egypt: Muslims are 23 per cent of the earth's population. Contrary to popular belief, there are over 170 million Muslims in Indonesia, the largest Muslim country. There are over 70 million Muslims in China and over 54 million in the former Soviet States. The majority of Muslims, the study said are youth and children. Children below five years old represent 43 per cent of the Muslim world! By the year 2020 CE, our population will be expected to reach 2.5 billion, Insha Allah. In Canada, startling statistical data has been released. One in three children born in Canadian hospitals today is from a Muslim family! What does this mean to us?

The future is bright for Muslims if we make the right choices today.

If we do not change our ways and return to the path of Islam, Allah has made a promise: In Surah al-Ma`idah, verse 54, He says: O you who believe. If any from among you turn back from his religion, soon Allah will produce a people whom He will love and they will love Him. They will be humble with the Believers and mighty against the Unbelievers. They will struggle in the path of Allah and not be afraid of the blame of those who find fault. That is grace of Allah which He gives to whom He pleases and Allah encompasses all and has knowledge of all things.


You know being a Christian the events taking today place do not in anyway offend me. I think it amazing to see things spoken of in times past unfolding today.

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

To help you understand you must look at the City of David Jeruselam as the center of earth how world events affect that city will help you understand the events unfolding today. What the above verse boils down to is the five mountains that have fallen were the Egyption, Assyrian, Greek, Babylonian and Persian Empires. The "one is" was the Roman Empire which was ruling at the time John recieved this revelation. Each of these in time past ruled over the Jews and or Jerusalem and as one Empire defeated the other the victor grew in size. But we have many looking for a revieved Roman Empire or the Pope and the Catholic Church but as I've said before Europe is asleep. Not only that but it would mean the Roman Empire would be the 6th, 7th and 8th Empires to come however even the Roman was eventually defeated. So who defeated it? The Ottoman Empire did which also conquered Jerusalem 637 and builded upon the Temple Mount an abomination that causes desolation. The Ottoman Empire continued up until around 1909 and if I'm not mistaken the caliphate was abolished in the late 20's.

Are we now seeing the makings of the revived Ottoman Empire there is already talk of a a new caliphate will this be the Sahib Al-Zaman a.k.a. Al-Madi al-Muntadhar The Guided One so many Muslims are looking foward too? According to the word of the God of Israel he is called the Desolater, the Assyrian, the little horn, Gog, the man of lawlessness. Could happen tomorrow or it could happen after the population growth continues which also leads to a 'falling away' (apostasy) as more people are raised or convert to believe in allah and his false prophet Isa al-mesiah rather than the God of Israel and His Son Jesus the Christ.

Our history will prove God's prophecy.

[Onkel Neal]

When you take into account the fact that Europeans are currently not breeding at that great a level, ....

I'm willing to help with that. Please provide pictures and airfare.

[The Avon Lady]

When you take into account the fact that Europeans are currently not breeding at that great a level, ....
I'm willing to help with that. Please provide pictures
http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/4307/41146468afghanburqa203abs0.jpg

:88)

[The Avon Lady]

Can someone provide me with any hard evidence (Jihard Watch is not hard evidence) or proof.
Why? Because you say so?

Anyway, on the subject of demographics and linked to at Jihad Watch: Germany "well on the way to becoming a Muslim state by 2050" (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014061.php).

But keep hiding your head in the sand. Why waste good eyes and ears!

[Tchocky]

I consider myself European first and foremost, can't say I've found trouble integrating anywhere.

As regards birth rates, it seems to be the standard for a lot of post-Catholic countries these days.

[DAB]

Well first off it's a book review not an academic piece.

secondly what do you know of Islam you defend it like it was your own?

Firstly, any accademic will tell you that a Book Review is still an accademic piece. Postgraduates spend years doing Rook Review exercises.

Secondly. I'm a sort of old fashioned freedom loving, equality respecting Westerner. I believe that it is the actions of people that are important, not the label they are given.


Population growth is not something to just shrug off as some minor blip on the radar. Western Europe has gone from a Muslim population of 250,000, 50 years ago, to 20 million today. According to Robert S. Leiken, director of the Immigration and National Security Program at the Nixon Center, higher Muslim birthrates combined with Muslim immigration have led the U.S. National Intelligence Council to project that Europe's Muslim population will double by 2025. As a result, demographics may bring about what the Moors and Ottoman Empire couldn't: a Muslim Europe."

I suspect you want me to afraid of that. I'm not. Not just because I have no problem with Islam, but because what I wrote before (which you are not by implication contesting) disproves your point.

Any any centre whose name combines Immigration and National Security in one sentence tells me all I need to know about its politics. Again, Accademics will tell you, its not what is said thats important, its whose saying it.

Here from a muslim website they boast

According to a report issued by The International Center for Population Studies, an affiliate of Al-Azhar University of Cairo, Egypt: Muslims are 23 per cent of the earth's population. Contrary to popular belief, there are over 170 million Muslims in Indonesia, the largest Muslim country. There are over 70 million Muslims in China and over 54 million in the former Soviet States. The majority of Muslims, the study said are youth and children. Children below five years old represent 43 per cent of the Muslim world! By the year 2020 CE, our population will be expected to reach 2.5 billion, Insha Allah. In Canada, startling statistical data has been released. One in three children born in Canadian hospitals today is from a Muslim family! What does this mean to us?

The future is bright for Muslims if we make the right choices today.

If we do not change our ways and return to the path of Islam, Allah has made a promise: In Surah al-Ma`idah, verse 54, He says: O you who believe. If any from among you turn back from his religion, soon Allah will produce a people whom He will love and they will love Him. They will be humble with the Believers and mighty against the Unbelievers. They will struggle in the path of Allah and not be afraid of the blame of those who find fault. That is grace of Allah which He gives to whom He pleases and Allah encompasses all and has knowledge of all things.

How does any of that technically differ from what you write beneath. To that matter, where is this website, who wrote it, what was the intended audience, what is the politics of the editor. An extract like that is absolutely meaningless.


You know being a Christian the events taking today place do not in anyway offend me. I think it amazing to see things spoken of in times past unfolding today.

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

To help you understand you must look at the City of David Jeruselam as the center of earth how world events affect that city will help you understand the events unfolding today. What the above verse boils down to is the five mountains that have fallen were the Egyption, Assyrian, Greek, Babylonian and Persian Empires. The "one is" was the Roman Empire which was ruling at the time John recieved this revelation. Each of these in time past ruled over the Jews and or Jerusalem and as one Empire defeated the other the victor grew in size. But we have many looking for a revieved Roman Empire or the Pope and the Catholic Church but as I've said before Europe is asleep. Not only that but it would mean the Roman Empire would be the 6th, 7th and 8th Empires to come however even the Roman was eventually defeated. So who defeated it? The Ottoman Empire did which also conquered Jerusalem 637 and builded upon the Temple Mount an abomination that causes desolation. The Ottoman Empire continued up until around 1909 and if I'm not mistaken the caliphate was abolished in the late 20's.

Are we now seeing the makings of the revived Ottoman Empire there is already talk of a a new caliphate will this be the Sahib Al-Zaman a.k.a. Al-Madi al-Muntadhar The Guided One so many Muslims are looking foward too? According to the word of the God of Israel he is called the Desolater, the Assyrian, the little horn, Gog, the man of lawlessness. Could happen tomorrow or it could happen after the population growth continues which also leads to a 'falling away' (apostasy) as more people are raised or convert to believe in allah and his false prophet Isa al-mesiah rather than the God of Israel and His Son Jesus the Christ.

Our history will prove God's prophecy.

I remember these discussions from my childhood in Sunday School. You know, every other generation has an end of the world scare. Prophecy in the bible is written in such a way it can mean anything. I've heard people say that the seven hills is a reference to the Treaty of Rome. Of course, Protestants in the 16th century maintained the seven hills was a reference to the Papacy. If you use selective evidence, you can prove almost anything with anything. That is why religion is called faith and not science.

I feel obliged to return to your quotes of the Korran.

Muslim Children spend hours every week learning Arabic. They learn so they can read the Korran in the original language it was written in. Translation, by nature distorts meaning, I wonder where all these translations are coming from.

Allow me to use an example closser to home. My everyday Language is Cymraeg. Imagine I said:

Dw I’n defnyddio’r cyfrifiadur i sharad i ti!


Now I know exactly what I have said in that sentance, and any Welsh Speaker would understand the reference. Welsh is however a Insular Celtic language of the Brythonic family, unlike English which is a West Germanic Indo European Language. Somethings that are said in a sentence in English can be said in a word in Welsh. In Welsh, we have no word for Yes, we use a sentance to express something in the affirmative.

Now if you tried to translate the above litteroly, you would get a translation along the lines of...

"I am using an abacus to have a conversation with a familiar." That makes no sence. Actually, the translation is

"I am using a glorified Abacus to speak to you." But even thats not quite right. cyfrifiadur means glorified Abacus, of course the better english word to use is Computer.

My point is simple. If that problem is caused by translating between two languages from the same corner of Europe - how the hell can you even begin to guarentee the accuracy of any translation between two languages from different continents. Even if the word can itself be directly translated, the context and use of the word cant. Cariad is Welsh for Love, yet we use the word in a very different way to the English.

So all of you who weald your Arabic to English dictionaries... forget it. Quoting the Korran is useless out of cultural and ethnic context.

And we haven't even touched on the evolution of languages yet.

[Rockstar]

Firstly, any accademic will tell you that a Book Review is still an accademic piece. Postgraduates spend years doing Rook Review exercises.

Secondly. I'm a sort of old fashioned freedom loving, equality respecting Westerner. I believe that it is the actions of people that are important, not the label they are given.


I suspect you want me to afraid of that. I'm not. Not just because I have no problem with Islam, but because what I wrote before (which you are not by implication contesting) disproves your point.

Any any centre whose name combines Immigration and National Security in one sentence tells me all I need to know about its politics. Again, Accademics will tell you, its not what is said thats important, its whose saying it.


How does any of that technically differ from what you write beneath. To that matter, where is this website, who wrote it, what was the intended audience, what is the politics of the editor. An extract like that is absolutely meaningless.



I remember these discussions from my childhood in Sunday School. You know, every other generation has an end of the world scare. Prophecy in the bible is written in such a way it can mean anything. I've heard people say that the seven hills is a reference to the Treaty of Rome. Of course, Protestants in the 16th century maintained the seven hills was a reference to the Papacy. If you use selective evidence, you can prove almost anything with anything. That is why religion is called faith and not science.

I feel obliged to return to your quotes of the Korran.

Muslim Children spend hours every week learning Arabic. They learn so they can read the Korran in the original language it was written in. Translation, by nature distorts meaning, I wonder where all these translations are coming from.

Allow me to use an example closser to home. My everyday Language is Cymraeg. Imagine I said:

Dw I’n defnyddio’r cyfrifiadur i sharad i ti!


Now I know exactly what I have said in that sentance, and any Welsh Speaker would understand the reference. Welsh is however a Insular Celtic language of the Brythonic family, unlike English which is a West Germanic Indo European Language. Somethings that are said in a sentence in English can be said in a word in Welsh. In Welsh, we have no word for Yes, we use a sentance to express something in the affirmative.

Now if you tried to translate the above litteroly, you would get a translation along the lines of...

"I am using an abacus to have a conversation with a familiar." That makes no sence. Actually, the translation is

"I am using a glorified Abacus to speak to you." But even thats not quite right. cyfrifiadur means glorified Abacus, of course the better english word to use is Computer.

My point is simple. If that problem is caused by translating between two languages from the same corner of Europe - how the hell can you even begin to guarentee the accuracy of any translation between two languages from different continents. Even if the word can itself be directly translated, the context and use of the word cant. Cariad is Welsh for Love, yet we use the word in a very different way to the English.

So all of you who weald your Arabic to English dictionaries... forget it. Quoting the Korran is useless out of cultural and ethnic context.

And we haven't even touched on the evolution of languages yet.

The website I got the above information from is www.islaam.com and another one which is just as interesting www.al-sunnah.com


As far as prophecy goes one thing what many of the old time commentators like Scofield, Henry, or Ironsides never saw was in Ezekiel 38 & 39. Which I believe identifies modern day Israel who will come against it and a specific list nations involved all of which right now happen to be under Islamic rule and law (Magog, Gomer, Put, Persia, Meshek, Tubal, Cush, Gomer and Togarmah). Look in your history books they will explain the borders of these nations.

Your take on translations and languages I don't think has anything to do with my ability to read what someone has printed on paper or verbally confess for that matter. For if I told you the Muslim belief is that a man the Al-Madi will in the middle of a seven year reign come against Israel. Then compare it with scripture from the God of Israel which warns me that man identified as Gog will do the same. Do you not understand what I just said?

Here are two of the same Book let me know if you have a problem with translation or language. Hadith literature is where you discover much more of what muslim beliefs are. The Quran alone you will barely scratch the surface.

The Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

The Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The (Final) Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

You say don't believe the Arabic to English translations but here you translate Cymraeg to english and then expect me to believe that. Why, what makes your words more believable than thiers?