Enboldened by the cut and run folks

[waste gate]

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A purported audio recording by the leader of Iraq's al Qaeda wing gloated over the resignation of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, as a top U.S. general said the military was preparing to recommend strategy changes.
Abu Hamza al-Muhajir, also known as Abu Ayyub al-Masri, said in the recording posted on the Internet on Friday that the group had 12,000 armed fighters and 10,000 others waiting to be equipped to fight U.S. troops in Iraq. "I tell the lame duck (U.S. administration) do not rush to escape as did your defense minister...stay on the battle ground," he said.

if(!CMSB_ID){var CMSB_ID=""} CMSB_ID+="midarticle_elections,";document.write('');


He said his group would not rest until it had blown up the presidential mansion in Washington. "I swear by God we shall not rest from jihad until we...blow up the filthiest house known as the White House," the voice on the recording said.

[Ducimus]

He said his group would not rest until it had blown up the presidential mansion in Washington. "I swear by God we shall not rest from jihad until we...blow up the filthiest house known as the White House," the voice on the recording said.

They've been saying that for years. Watch "obsession" sometime.

As for the rest.. Whoopty do. Generalizations and fear mongering for teh win. I'm a little tired of both, and is a major reason why this republican is switching to independant. Im really tired of repubican "tactics" and total lack of ethics. Everytime i hear GOP, the "Grand ole party" i think of some guy in a straw hat with red white and blue hat band, white shirt, suspenders, in the south on some steamboat who's wired into the good ole boy network, touting and repeating the party line like a parrot.

[SUBMAN1]

Yawn - another wasted 2 minutes of my life reading the ramblings of mad men.

-S

[August]

Everytime i hear GOP, the "Grand ole party" i think of some guy in a straw hat with red white and blue hat band, white shirt, suspenders, in the south on some steamboat who's wired into the good ole boy network, touting and repeating the party line like a parrot.
To me you've just described your average Democrat to a tee.

[STEED]

Yawn - another wasted 2 minutes of my life reading the ramblings of mad men.

-S

And here's my secret spot a SUBMAN1 post like this one and I save the extra minute of my life. :up:

If you ever come to England SUBMAN1, I will buy you a drink.

[Ducimus]

To me you've just described your average Democrat to a tee.

Both parties suck ass. Im fed up with the entire thing. Donkies and Dumbo's don't like independant's. There should be a nationwide push for people to go independant to send a clear and concise message to both Dumbo and the Jack ass to clean up their horse****.

edit: And for the record, most hardcore republicans, all they do is parrot whatever bush says. They seem to accept and him with unquestioning loyalty. Zieg heil mein fuirer. (no thats not fair, but its arguably the truth)

[waste gate]

[quote=Ducimus
edit: And for the record, most hardcore republicans, all they do is parrot whatever bush says. They seem to accept and him with unquestioning loyalty. Zieg heil mein fuirer. (no thats not fair, but its arguably the truth)[/quote]

The same can be said for democrats. Your not breaking any new ground here.

[SUBMAN1]

Yawn - another wasted 2 minutes of my life reading the ramblings of mad men.

-S
And here's my secret spot a SUBMAN1 post like this one and I save the extra minute of my life. :up:

If you ever come to England SUBMAN1, I will buy you a drink.

Your on considering they don't arrest me right off the plane because I tripped up some new PC law! :up:

[Ducimus]

No, but this thread is an example of your parroting the hardcore republican line. "Cut and run" , thats bush talking, which would seem to indicate you hang onto most everything he says. Makes me wonder if your capable of thinking for yourself.

[waste gate]

No, but this thread is an example of your parroting the hardcore republican line. "Cut and run" , thats bush talking, which would seem to indicate you hang onto most everything he says. Makes me wonder if your capable of thinking for yourself.

Your right I'm a bubble headed idiot.

I should have said its a problem to be solved.

[Ducimus]

I freely admit that ive always voted staunchly republican. I always voted by party first. No longer.

Here's something to ponder, most of us, growing up, certain things are drilled into our heads.

1.) We're the good guys.
2.) we're always right
3.) Deomocrats are evil
4.) USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!
5.) Praise jesus.

Number 5 i never took, but 1 through 4 i did. For most of us, i think it is simplly inconcievable that, we could be a bad guy, or that we could be wrong, or even if the other party has a valid point.

Mine was a childhood of hardcore republican values and regimentation. Before i was in the military i was affilated with the military in various cadet programs. To this day i can still recite by memory the honor code, the defnation of military diclipline, and the value of drill and ceremonies.

So awhile back i saw something on youtube. In short (and im changing some of the wording around to make my point)

------------------------
[Cadet Youth boys march in formation]
Narrator:
Marching and saluting, salutingand marching, Johnny grows up. In him is planted no seed of tolerance.

Narrator: For him, only marching and saluting, saluting and marching as the years grind on.

[Cadets become armed US soldiers]
Narrator:
Manhood finds him still saluting and marching. But the grim years of regimentation have done their work: Now, he's a good Republcian. He sees nothing but what the party wants him to see, says nothing but what the party wants him to say, and he does no more than the party wants him to do.
--------------------------

That was me to a the Tee. And the truth is, I would have made a good Nazi.


So when i see people parroting hardcore party lines, now.. i wince. Just my perspective.

[waste gate]

I'm sorry your childhood was such agony. Perhaps children whoose agony was greater than yours might like the help that the US provides.

[Sea Demon]

I do find it funny that yesterday, Al Sadr in Iraq mentioned that he and his fanatic Islamists hope that the Democrats keep their promises to get us out of there. That's revealing in itself. And today, the terrorists are claiming they're winning. And who can blame them for thinking we lost our will by electing the people (Democrats) who've been pushing our defeat and surrender since we began? Democrats have been trying everything in their power to bring America's defeat quicker. I sadly expect that the violence in Iraq will increase over the next few month to hasten our departure. Heck, If Al Qaeda there kills 150 troops a day, they know the Democrats will be waving that white flag quicker. At any rate, how does this make you feel......

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/11/10/D8LABFF00.html

How about surrenduring to Al Qaeda? Sound good to you? Apparently alot of Americans did this last week? Do you really think electing the Democrats are going to make this situation better or us any safer? Do you really think if we leave Iraq, things will get better or stabilize? Do you like the idea of that place getting even more chaotic than it is and what the consequences of such will be? I'd really like to hear from my fellow Americans on this.

[Ducimus]

I'm sorry your childhood was such agony. Perhaps children whoose agony was greater than yours might like the help that the US provides.

I never said my childhood was agony. I was implying what we learn in this country from childhood. Obviously you still can't see past what your feed.

And since you want to help other people so much, rather then talk about how "we" do this or that, or how "we're" so ****ing great, put your money where your mouth is and enlist or get a god damn comission, and contribute to that greatness you like to espouse so much. Go to other countries ,and help and see them yourself, but don't sit there on the sidelines saying how "we" do this or that if you havent'd done jack **** to contrubte to any of it at all. Paying taxes don't count.

[Sea Demon]

Paying taxes don't count.

Oh, paying taxes does count. Those taxes are generated from a productive American that is helping to sustain such an American economy.

[Ducimus]

Rifleman in the mud pay taxes too. EVERYBODY pays taxes.
Taxes don't count. Even a Private basic pays them. Thats why i never have nor ever will accept the excuse of ones contrubution by paying taxes.

[Sea Demon]

Rifleman in the mud pay taxes too. EVERYBODY pays taxes.
Taxes don't count. Even a Private basic pays them.

Well I served in the military (both enlisted and officer) and pay taxes. So my super-duper authority on the issue says that civie taxpayers count. :p The only ones who don't count IMO is the slackers that go to the voting booth to vote themselves a living from the productive citizens.

[Ducimus]

My point is, at least you did something. My anger is directed at people who are such blowhards about how we do this or that, but haven't or won't back any of that talk up or have shown the courage of commitment.

Im sick of the ****ing fear mongering
im sick of the ****ing mudraking
im sick of the ****ing right or left wing extremist rhetorical bull**** and propganda.
im sick of ****ing blow hard flag wavers who are all show and no ****ing go.

****ing tired of it.

[bradclark1]

I tried to stay away but.........
I see August and Sea Deamon have recovered from the embarrassment of the elections.
It would seem that most voting Americans disagree with you guys. Oh, and the house and Senate now too. I guess it took the Republicans getting their butt squashed for the president to finally decide that not having a plan isn't going to work anymore and did the politically astute thing and dump Rumsfeld to bring someone else in.
The people have spoken pretty loud and clear on this issue I think.

[Sea Demon]

I tried to stay away but.........
I see August and Sea Deamon have recovered from the embarrassment of the elections.
It would seem that most voting Americans disagree with you guys. Oh, and the house and Senate now too. I guess it took the Republicans getting their butt squashed for the president to finally decide that not having a plan isn't going to work anymore and did the politically astute thing and dump Rumsfeld to bring someone else in.
The people have spoken pretty loud and clear on this issue I think.

LOL :rotfl:It looks like Brad and Skybird share the same "friend". Anyways, we'll be back. The electorate are going to see how crazy you're side is over the next two years, how emboldened the terrorists will become, and tax policies which will send a chill throughout the business communities. This is only temporary Brad. I'm not worried or embarrassed. BTW, did you know that the fact that the Democrats only won 30 seats and 6 Senate seats in two midterms is actually quite abysmal? And the Democrats had to win by endorsing very conservative Democrats to do it. Your side won by being intellectually dishonest about who they are. Enjoy this power, because it won't last. And you're not going to accomplish anything with this thin majority consisting of conservative Democrats. :D

[bradclark1]

LOL :rotfl:It looks like Brad and Skybird share the same "friend". Anyways, we'll be back. The electorate are going to see how crazy you're side is over the next two years, how emboldened the terrorists will become, and tax policies which will send a chill throughout the business communities. This is only temporary Brad. I'm not worried or embarrassed. BTW, did you know that the fact that the Democrats only won 30 seats and 6 Senate seats in two midterms is actually quite abysmal? And the Democrats had to win by endorsing very conservative Democrats to do it. Your side won by being intellectually dishonest about who they are. Enjoy this power, because it won't last. And you're not going to accomplish anything with this thin majority consisting of conservative Democrats. :D

Yeah, I was doing good until the party flag waving started again. ;)

You still don't get it do you? It had nothing to do with Republican or Democrat as a party. People got tired of the "yes" men Republican party line zombies. All those little party flag wavers that did nothing but suck up whatever Bush was saying and wasn't seeing what was in front of their nose. People wanted change and the Republican party was too arrogant to see it. If it wasn't Democrats they would have voted for Independents.
It really doesn't matter if the Democrats loose next election because you could bet your last dollar the Republicans will listen to the people now. I'll wave my flag now, but it's red, white and blue. You keep waving your red one. I'm satisfied for the present and am waiting to see what the Democrats will do.
I had a satisfying election. I voted 1 Democrat, 1 Republican, and 1 Independent and they all won. See! I'm an equal opportunity voter.:D I vote with my mind, not party line.

[Sea Demon]

You still don't get it do you? It had nothing to do with Republican or Democrat as a party. People got tired of the "yes" men Republican party line zombies. All those little party flag wavers that did nothing but suck up whatever Bush was saying and wasn't seeing what was in front of their nose. People wanted change and the Republican party was too arrogant to see it. If it wasn't Democrats they would have voted for Independents.
It really doesn't matter if the Democrats loose next election because you could bet your last dollar the Republicans will listen to the people now. I'll wave my flag now, but it's red, white and blue. You keep waving your red one. I'm satisfied for the present and am waiting to see what the Democrats will do.
I had a satisfying election. I voted 1 Democrat, 1 Republican, and 1 Independent and they all won. See! I'm an equal opportunity voter.:D I vote with my mind, not party line.
Not quite. I see and agree with much of what you say here, but my point is that the Democrats will not hold power for very long. They're already stepping in it, even though they haven't even been sworn in yet. Charlie Rangel is already arrogantly throwing his weight around(insulting Mississippi citizens), Nancy Pelosi is already saying that Iraq is not a war to win (yesterday), and other Dems are already talking entitlements, amnesty for illegals, tax cut repeals, and a committment to fighting the President on his constitutional duties to be the commander in chief (War policy). Yes, I see a silver lining to this. Many Republicans (Romney) have come out and are already beginning to look inward and will be more responsive. The Demcrats have shown they will not pursue the same agenda with Americans, but their own specific anti-war, big government, anti-business policies of their own. If you think that will make them survive, you're wrong.

I gotta say, I wasn't too motivated in going to vote the other day. I'm absolutely not happy with the Republican party in it's current form. But the principles that make Republicans successful, are a better recipe for America IMHO. Democrats will pursue the opposite. The fact that Democrats supported so many conservative Democrats to get power shows that the people did not disagree with my principles. They just rejected a Republican party that was not responsive to this core. That's why the Democrats will not see much success out of this. Their own hard core lefty consituencies are already calling for impeachment. This ain't gonna happen, and these hard-core lefties are going to be feeling as though they've been left out in the cold a year from now. On this issue and more. Mark my words.

[bradclark1]

The only thing we can do is wait and see. I expected some arrogance payback but I'm hopeful that B.S. will be reined in.

[SUBMAN1]

The problem with this last election is simply that no one turned out to vote.

I don't think the democrats will hold on for long, especially with some of the arrogant statements they are throwing around now, but we will see.

-S

PS. Ducimus - Get out of California - that is why your vote was influenced - it is because of that state - Nothing more. :D

[bradclark1]

The problem with this last election is simply that no one turned out to vote.

A nod is as good as a wink.

[The Avon Lady]

A g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-ghost!!!!! :o :o :o

;)

[bradclark1]

:D :oops:

[SkvyWvr]

I tried to stay away but.........
I see August and Sea Deamon have recovered from the embarrassment of the elections.
It would seem that most voting Americans disagree with you guys. Oh, and the house and Senate now too. I guess it took the Republicans getting their butt squashed for the president to finally decide that not having a plan isn't going to work anymore and did the politically astute thing and dump Rumsfeld to bring someone else in.
The people have spoken pretty loud and clear on this issue I think.

On that ISSUE, what is the Dem's solution? I've yet to hear any of them speak of a plan. Winning the election on "It's time for a change" hardly delt with any of the issues faceing America nor did it present any form of a platform to the people.

[bradclark1]

On that ISSUE, what is the Dem's solution? I've yet to hear any of them speak of a plan. Winning the election on "It's time for a change" hardly delt with any of the issues faceing America nor did it present any form of a platform to the people.
Iraq: is to double or triple the training cadre to accelerate the transition to begin with and try to figure out where we stand exactly.
On domestic issues it's taxes, college loans, campaign finance reform, "home"land security, balanced budgets and paying down the national debt, health care and the uninsured, environment, and everything else that the news has been reporting.

[SkvyWvr]

On that ISSUE, what is the Dem's solution? I've yet to hear any of them speak of a plan. Winning the election on "It's time for a change" hardly delt with any of the issues faceing America nor did it present any form of a platform to the people.
Iraq: is to double or triple the training cadre to accelerate the transition to begin with and try to figure out where we stand exactly.
On domestic issues it's taxes, college loans, campaign finance reform, "home"land security, balanced budgets and paying down the national debt, health care and the uninsured, environment, and everything else that the news has been reporting.

I understand the issues, what I said was, I've yet to hear any of them propose a plan to do all these wonderful things. All they did was criticize the current batch of clowns but never once did they offer solutions.

[Safe-Keeper]

They've been saying that for years. Watch "obsession" sometime.Or how about a movie that's actually made to enlighten and educate, rather than as a propaganda tool? "Muslims are evil and the whole world's at risk" is naught but a reprisal of the witch hunts, McCarthyism of the Cold War, paranoia about the "Jewish threat", and I could go on and on. Pick an enemy, real or imagined, and paint a pic' of it as an evil threat to the whole world that fights simply for being fanatical and/or evil.

I'm sorry your childhood was such agony. Perhaps children whoose agony was greater than yours might like the help that the US provides.I.e. the invasion of Iraq, which toppled a stable (albeit evil) government and replace it with a regime totally unable to keep the peace, giving militants the freedom to start a civil war?

I'd be crying from joy.

On that ISSUE, what is the Dem's solution? I've yet to hear any of them speak of a plan. Winning the election on "It's time for a change" hardly delt with any of the issues faceing America nor did it present any form of a platform to the people.Except they are.

How about surrenduring to Al Qaeda? Sound good to you?The USA surrendered to Al-Q'aida the moment they abandoned the War on Terror for the invasion of Iraq, purely for economic reasons (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/www.downingstreetmemo.com).

Surrender to Al-Q'aida? You're hardly even fighting them in the first place. If you haven't noticed, the extremists in Iraq have little to do with the extremists who blew up the WTC. Geez.

Do you really think electing the Democrats are going to make this situation better or us any safer?Anything short of a pull-out from Iraq is better than the McCarthyist doctrine of the GOP.

Do you really think if we leave Iraq, things will get better or stabilize?No. The only way to stabilize the country is to invent a time machine and go back in time.

When inspectors showed up at a facility after 1996, and I led the bulk of these inspections that ran into the confrontations, a lot of people would assume that, when the Iraqis obstructed the work of the inspectors, it's because they were hiding Weapons of Mass Destruction. Not so. 98% of the inspections run by the weapons inspection team from 1996 through 1998 got the full cooperation of the Iraqi government. A very small percentage, primarily the ones I led, were obstructed. Why? Because we were going to sites that were affiliated with Presidential security, Presidential palaces, and intelligence services. The Iraqis obstructed us not because they were hiding weapons. I'm here to tell you, as the person who planned these inspections; we never thought weapons were there. We were looking for the potential of documentation that might help us clear up outstanding questions as to what the final disposition of material was.
--Scott Ritter, weapons inspector. (http://www.traprockpeace.org/ritter09july03.html)

But no, no matter how illegal and unjust the blasted conflict was, pulling out of Iraq now will solve nothing.

[AVGWarhawk]

Three things:

1. Iraq will never become self relient because we are still there providing protection. They have become relaxed with it and will continue to depend on it until forced to do it themselves.

2. Iraq is this generations Viet Nam. We will pull out in disgrace and our fighting men and women will not have parade or fanfare they deserve. Truly a shame.

3. We have already forgotten this was a response to the 9/11 attacks. All of America backed it. Now that we are on the losing side, we don't want any part of it. Typical America with the short term memory.

Just my humble opinion.

[waste gate]

Now that we are on the losing side

How are you defining the losing side? Just because the hostilities haven't been wrapped up within the hour plot line of a TV show doesn't mean there is a losing side (Saddam's regime excepted). Have you been to Detroit, New Orleans, Camden, Miami, St Louis or Washington D.C. lately. Plenty of violence in those cities?

Has the US military been defeated in any military engagement in Iraq?

[AVGWarhawk]

Now that we are on the losing side
How are you defining the losing side? Just because the hostilities haven't been wrapped up within the hour plot line of a TV show doesn't mean there is a losing side (Saddam's regime excepted). Have you been to Detroit, New Orleans, Camden, Miami, St Louis or Washington D.C. lately. Plenty of violence in those cities?

Has the US military been defeated in any military engagement in Iraq?

I live between Washington DC and Baltimore MD....THE MURDER CAPITAL of the WORLD. So yeah, I see and read about it everyday. We have lost the battle and war in these two cities.

Sure we have won the battles but have we won the war?????? We have not won the war...the country is still in caos. It will remain so if we are still there. It has become a state of dependence and not a state self sufficient. Just like when you hit 18 years of age....booted out of the nest. It is time we boot the out of their nest and let them make it on their own.


Rumsfeld quit. George W has asked that his fathers cabinet of advisers step in.....should tell you something don't you think. The kids can't handle it anymore and dad has to do it.

[waste gate]

I live between Washington DC and Baltimore MD....THE MURDER CAPITAL of the WORLD. So yeah, I see and read about it everyday. We have lost the battle and war in these two cities.

So by your definition those cities should be abandoned.?

[AVGWarhawk]

You better believe it. Lock stock and barrell. Baltimore is a joke and Washington is a national disgrace. With exception of the museum mall and monuments the rest is just laughable at best. But you are comparing apples to oranges. Iraq is a country with a standing military and it is OURS! Time for them to pick up the pieces and move forward. We were asked to help remove Saddam and we answered. Now we are doing it alone. The baby steps are over. Our men and women have done enough. I'm glad you feel it is ok to keep ours over there losing appendages to bombs and grenades. Same as Viet Nam in my view. We want your help fighting will we stand idle by watching.

[waste gate]

[quote=AVGWarhawk]Our men and women have done enough. I'm glad you feel it is ok to keep ours over there losing appendages to bombs and grenades. Same as Viet Nam in my view.[quote]

Is that not the definition of cut and run?

[AVGWarhawk]

[quote=AVGWarhawk]Our men and women have done enough. I'm glad you feel it is ok to keep ours over there losing appendages to bombs and grenades. Same as Viet Nam in my view.[quote]

Is that not the definition of cut and run?
Absolutely....we cut and run. Our young men and women need to come on home. It is time for the Iraqi to figure out his future. We did what was asked....oust a dictator. Do you realise how rich this country will be with sale of oil that will be dispersed amongst the people. Filthy rich by every stretch of the imagination. What I dislike is CNN..constant negative on it. Fox5 usually shows postives about it. Iraq is not as bad off as one would like to believe. People are buying ever electronic gizzmo they can because electricity is free. The money will be flowing and we will be watching closely to make sure another single individual rules it all. But again, it is time for the Iraqi to take control of what is theirs. They have become to complacent.

[waste gate]

[quote=AVGWarhawk]Our men and women have done enough. I'm glad you feel it is ok to keep ours over there losing appendages to bombs and grenades. Same as Viet Nam in my view.[quote]

Is that not the definition of cut and run?
Absolutely....we cut and run. Our young men and women need to come on home. It is time for the Iraqi to figure out his future. We did what was asked....oust a dictator. Do you realise how rich this country will be with sale of oil that will be dispersed amongst the people. Filthy rich by every stretch of the imagination. What I dislike is CNN..constant negative on it. Fox5 usually shows postives about it. Iraq is not as bad off as one would like to believe. People are buying ever electronic gizzmo they can because electricity is free. The money will be flowing and we will be watching closely to make sure another single individual rules it all. But again, it is time for the Iraqi to take control of what is theirs. They have become to complacent.


Post WWII Europe didn't recover or return to what they now call normal until many years after the defeat of Germany. The Marshall Plan time line exists until 1967, a full 22 years after VE day. The US has had a military presence in continental Europe to this day.

[tycho102]

The US has had a military presence in continental Europe to this day.

I would very much like to rectify that particular issue.

[AVGWarhawk]

[quote=AVGWarhawk]Our men and women have done enough. I'm glad you feel it is ok to keep ours over there losing appendages to bombs and grenades. Same as Viet Nam in my view.[quote]

Is that not the definition of cut and run?
Absolutely....we cut and run. Our young men and women need to come on home. It is time for the Iraqi to figure out his future. We did what was asked....oust a dictator. Do you realise how rich this country will be with sale of oil that will be dispersed amongst the people. Filthy rich by every stretch of the imagination. What I dislike is CNN..constant negative on it. Fox5 usually shows postives about it. Iraq is not as bad off as one would like to believe. People are buying ever electronic gizzmo they can because electricity is free. The money will be flowing and we will be watching closely to make sure another single individual rules it all. But again, it is time for the Iraqi to take control of what is theirs. They have become to complacent.

Post WWII Europe didn't recover or return to what they now call normal until many years after the defeat of Germany. The Marshall Plan time line exists until 1967, a full 22 years after VE day. The US has had a military presence in continental Europe to this day.

POST WWII.....unfortunate sir we are not POST Iraqi war. It goes on and will continue as long as we have a large military presence. Besides, POST WWII....we were the victors so we could do what we wanted. Like I stated, we win the battles but not the war. We need the backing of the locals and it is not happening. Right now the locals are delivering bombs in cars/packages. WWII we had the backing of everyone involved. There was no type of terrorist type acts other than the V2 threat and gas that was not used that I have read in any book. As far as military presence in Europe. I do not believe it is absolutely necessary at this juncture. We deploy just as fast from the state as we do in bases outside of the US.

[waste gate]

[quote=AVGWarhawk]Our men and women have done enough. I'm glad you feel it is ok to keep ours over there losing appendages to bombs and grenades. Same as Viet Nam in my view.[quote]

Is that not the definition of cut and run?
Absolutely....we cut and run. Our young men and women need to come on home. It is time for the Iraqi to figure out his future. We did what was asked....oust a dictator. Do you realise how rich this country will be with sale of oil that will be dispersed amongst the people. Filthy rich by every stretch of the imagination. What I dislike is CNN..constant negative on it. Fox5 usually shows postives about it. Iraq is not as bad off as one would like to believe. People are buying ever electronic gizzmo they can because electricity is free. The money will be flowing and we will be watching closely to make sure another single individual rules it all. But again, it is time for the Iraqi to take control of what is theirs. They have become to complacent.

Post WWII Europe didn't recover or return to what they now call normal until many years after the defeat of Germany. The Marshall Plan time line exists until 1967, a full 22 years after VE day. The US has had a military presence in continental Europe to this day.

POST WWII.....unfortunate sir we are not POST Iraqi war. It goes on and will continue as long as we have a large military presence. Besides, POST WWII....we were the victors so we could do what we wanted. Like I stated, we win the battles but not the war. We need the backing of the locals and it is not happening. Right now the locals are delivering bombs in cars/packages. WWII we had the backing of everyone involved. There was no type of terrorist type acts other than the V2 threat and gas that was not used that I have read in any book. As far as military presence in Europe. I do not believe it is absolutely necessary at this juncture. We deploy just as fast from the state as we do in bases outside of the US.

There was no type of terrorist type acts

Not true my friend. Partisan NAZIs did exist and did attack allied troops and installations, both in western and eastern occupied zones. The difference was that for 24 months the populations/insurgents had been heavly bombed and the insurgents didn't have other nation/states contributing to their terrorism.

[VipertheSniper]

3. We have already forgotten this was a response to the 9/11 attacks. All of America backed it. Now that we are on the losing side, we don't want any part of it. Typical America with the short term memory.
Just my humble opinion.

Talk about short term memory... what was it again you were going to war with Iraq for? I thought it was WMD's, or was it terrorist ties, or spreading democracy, or what???!!!!

Saddam's Iraq was as far as I'm aware not connected to the 9/11 attacks, Afghanistan where the Taliban reigned and harbored Al-Quaida was though, but I guess, after you were unable to find Osama, you had to distract the people with going for Saddam...

All of America backed it. Yeah no wonder, if the government feeds you lies, day in day out about WMD's in Iraq, all waiting to be delivered to the US with rockets that got a range of what... 200 Miles??? If that isn't a stupid reason to back a war with a country that was totally unrelated to a former attack, I don't know what is...

But I guess that's what you get when you tar with a brush as broad as the whole middle east...:damn: :damn: :damn: :damn:

[Ducimus]

3. We have already forgotten this was a response to the 9/11 attacks.


Ok refresh my memory, what exactly did Iraq have to do with the islamic raghead's that decided to park a couple airliners into the WTC?

Im listening really hard, and all i can hear is cricket's on that one.

The truth is, Iraq has abosutly NOTHING to do with Sept 11th. What happened was Bush worked us all up into a frenzy playing on the average american's patriotism.

After septh 11th, Junior decided that we were going to wage a war against a nationless entity in the traditional sense as if it were an acutal nation. Afghanistan we were on target, Afghanistan was a direct response and the appropriate one. After that we went off on this tangent fueled by paranoia.

That paranoia being, "OMG OMG Hussien has teh WMD!'s to sell to teh ragheads!" Maybe he did at some point, but history sure hasn't shown it. Are we still talking about 9/11? No, i dont think so. Now we're talking about trying to combat a nationless enity by a using a rulebook that this entity does not follow. Radical Islam and Jihad is not a nation, it's an idea, a beleif, and it's spreading like wildfire - you can't combat that by traditional means. Our attempting to do so, has only made it worse, and now we're stuck between a rock and a hardplace.

(edit: BTW, WMD is NOT the proper term, it's NBC )

[The Avon Lady]

3. We have already forgotten this was a response to the 9/11 attacks.


Ok refresh my memory, what exactly did Iraq have to do with the islamic raghead's that decided to park a couple airliners into the WTC?

Im listening really hard, and all i can hear is cricket's on that one.

The truth is, Iraq has abosutly NOTHING to do with Sept 11th. What happened was Bush worked us all up into a frenzy playing on the average american's patriotism.

After septh 11th, Junior decided that we were going to wage a war against a nationless entity in the traditional sense as if it were an acutal nation. Afghanistan we were on target, Afghanistan was a direct response and the appropriate one. After that we went off on this tangent fueled by paranoia.

That paranoia being, "OMG OMG Hussien has teh WMD!'s to sell to teh ragheads!" Maybe he did at some point, but history sure hasn't shown it. Are we still talking about 9/11? No, i dont think so. Now we're talking about trying to combat a nationless enity by a using a rulebook that this entity does not follow. Radical Islam and Jihad is not a nation, it's an idea, a beleif, and it's spreading like wildfire - you can't combat that by traditional means. Our attempting to do so, has only made it worse, and now we're stuck between a rock and a hardplace.

(edit: BTW, WMD is NOT the proper term, it's NBC )
WMD, NBC, CBS, CNN, BBC - whatever. :p

Regarding WMDs, may I suggest visiting the last page of my "Iraq WMDs Revisited" thread (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=91656&page=7).

As for Saddam's ties to Islamic terrorists, I unfortunately do not automatically recall where a number of relevant articles on this were recently. However, this article from July, The Saddam-Osama Connection: The Terrorist Testimony (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23264), with all of its reference links, might be just the ticket.

[AVGWarhawk]

3. We have already forgotten this was a response to the 9/11 attacks.

Ok refresh my memory, what exactly did Iraq have to do with the islamic raghead's that decided to park a couple airliners into the WTC?

Im listening really hard, and all i can hear is cricket's on that one.

The truth is, Iraq has abosutly NOTHING to do with Sept 11th. What happened was Bush worked us all up into a frenzy playing on the average american's patriotism.

After septh 11th, Junior decided that we were going to wage a war against a nationless entity in the traditional sense as if it were an acutal nation. Afghanistan we were on target, Afghanistan was a direct response and the appropriate one. After that we went off on this tangent fueled by paranoia.

That paranoia being, "OMG OMG Hussien has teh WMD!'s to sell to teh ragheads!" Maybe he did at some point, but history sure hasn't shown it. Are we still talking about 9/11? No, i dont think so. Now we're talking about trying to combat a nationless enity by a using a rulebook that this entity does not follow. Radical Islam and Jihad is not a nation, it's an idea, a beleif, and it's spreading like wildfire - you can't combat that by traditional means. Our attempting to do so, has only made it worse, and now we're stuck between a rock and a hardplace.

(edit: BTW, WMD is NOT the proper term, it's NBC )


The point here is US government was fed the wrong information and pointedly so by Colin Powell who adminted publically that the information on WMD were tanted. He resigned afterwards. Furthermore, it was not that Iraq started the terrorist act but that Iraq habored terrrorists. In hingsight, Iraq is nothing but oil and that is all this war is about. Do not fool yourself into thinking we really are looking to instill democracy there, we are establishing a foothold to the vast oil fields. The terrorist attack on 9/11 was a good excuse to claim Iraq was directly or indirectly involved and although not responsible for this particular terrorist attack, Iraq has the ability to conduct terrorist attacks on a larger scale to which we found out later for lack of finding WMD in Iraq did not really matter as we are there now and in control of the oil flow. ITS ALL ABOUT THE OIL. Iraq is going to be filthy rich once they grow up. We just want to be their parent during the growing process so Iraq feels that they owe the US something after the smoke clears. That something is about 25 billion barrels of oil a day.

[TarJak]

I think there was a fair bit of Cheney's "I thought we should have kept going all the way to Baghdad" from the first oil war, being whispered into Junior's ear as well!

[AVGWarhawk]

I think there was a fair bit of Cheney's "I thought we should have kept going all the way to Baghdad" from the first oil war, being whispered into Junior's ear as well!

The job should have been finished the first time. No doubt. It's all about the oil. What, does everyone really think we like Kuiwat? Come on people, Iraq wanted the oil fields. We decided to show this a humanitarian effort (hehe) and also save those oil fields. Now that we are done that,we want the Iraqi oil fields also. Just another strategic oil reserve for the US!

[The Avon Lady]

It's all about the oil.
Refresher: When believing Saddam had WMDs was cool (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfeBROshZ0M).

Heh.

[AVGWarhawk]

I will have to watch that at home. No speakers at work. Looks interesting!

[The Avon Lady]

I will have to watch that at home. No speakers at work. Looks interesting!
The text of many of the quotes therein have been posted here already a long time ago but this is a well produced video compilation of many but by far not all of them.

[AVGWarhawk]

Just reading the quotes and then the turn coat democrates here in the US when WMD were not found. Politics are really something else. I believe there was WMD. They were either taken apart or transported out of the country.

[tycho102]

I can't believe we're still discussing WMDs. The invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with "area denial weapons" (otherwise known as chemical weapons). It was about the fifth pillar of islam. The one that says "you must pay money to support jihad against the kuffar".

1. The moslems hit the world trade center. Yell "Praise allah -- allah is greatest" such as to strike fear into your enemies.
2. Surrender is not an immediate option because it would be bad for business (i.e. Republicans control congress).
3. Who do you hit back?

Whomever you can.

One is just as good as another, because they all support jihad against against the kuffar. We'd have invaded Morroco just the same as Egypt or Saudi Arabia or Turkey. They are all jihadist cessbuckets. The difference is we could justify Iraq and Afghanistan. There are liberals who say "OMFG!! BUT IT WASN'T JUSTIFIED!!" And yet, we managed to do it anyway. France, Spain, Holland, and Belgium didn't boycott us (consequently shutting down their own economy), nor did they invade us, nor did they send troops to stop us. We can discuss history, and certainly the invasion was poorly done -- it seems to be an actual failure of modern-era Republicans to understand secure borders. Area denial weapons were just the excuse, and it worked because the surrender monkeys had to wait for the election to do something about it.

Anyway, we destabilized the region. It is my utmost hope that, 25 years from now, GWB will be remembered as the guy who got us off oil. From 1950-2010 was a stable cesspool of economic survival, and only through destabilization and risk did we ever break the easy way (arab oil).

Iran will take over Iraq, and the ****es will annhilate (genocide? arabs against persians, maybe) the Sunni. Saudi Arabia will get a nice glut of al-Queda and other Sunni groups, and they'll start bombing their pipelines. Gas will go up like a Saturn-V rocket, rattling windows for miles around, and cities in California will start rolling blackouts even in the winter. Old people will be dying of heat exhaustion (and hypothermia) at a rate never encountered before (a thousand per month per 1,000,000 population), and interstate electrical transfer will be non existent (too much load on the steel wires).

At THAT point, we'll see some real progress. I hate that people have to die, that our country believes in emergency medicine instead of preventative medicine, that energy availablity has to become a survival crisis, but that is our entire history. It was that way in 1812 when our sailors were being impressed. It was that way during the War of Succession. It was that way with the Zimmerman telegram, and Apollo 1.

It logically has to be that way with oil. The sooner the better, because it will cost less.


edit-- Shi-ites. There are two i's in that particular english interpretation of the Shi'a, regardless of the word filter.

[bradclark1]

It's all about the oil.
Refresher: When believing Saddam had WMDs was cool (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfeBROshZ0M).

Heh.

Lets not forget this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN5yvoIsnnE&NR

[The Avon Lady]

It's all about the oil.
Refresher: When believing Saddam had WMDs was cool (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfeBROshZ0M).

Heh.
Lets not forget this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN5yvoIsnnE&NR
Powell responded back in a 2004 interview with exactly what he meant and what was assumed (http://www.state.gov/secretary/former/powell/remarks/36331.htm).

I haven't bothered checking but I'm sure clarification of Rice's statement is out there on the Internet for the taking just as well.

[bradclark1]

I haven't bothered checking but I'm sure clarification of Rice's statement is out there on the Internet for the taking just as well.

Kind of funny they both needed to clarify what they said don't you think. :roll: Especially funny considering both their jobs depends on being understood, to mean what they say and have no room for errors in being misunderstood.
Yep, very funny indeed.:hmm:

[waste gate]

:hmm: I haven't bothered checking but I'm sure clarification of Rice's statement is out there on the Internet for the taking just as well.

Kind of funny they both needed to clarify what they said don't you think. :roll: Especially funny considering both their jobs depends on being understood, to mean what they say and have no room for errors in being misunderstood.
Yep, very funny indeed.:hmm:

"Depends on what the definition of is is".:hmm:

[August]

:hmm: I haven't bothered checking but I'm sure clarification of Rice's statement is out there on the Internet for the taking just as well.
Kind of funny they both needed to clarify what they said don't you think. :roll: Especially funny considering both their jobs depends on being understood, to mean what they say and have no room for errors in being misunderstood.
Yep, very funny indeed.:hmm:
"Depends on what the definition of is is".:hmm:

Or "Let me say this about that".

[Sailor Steve]

I have no idea how to find things on YouTube, but there was another one I saw some time ago which showed Kerry's ongoing criticizm of the Clinton administration throughout the '90s for not going after Saddam because he 'knew' Saddam had WMDs.

[The Avon Lady]

I have no idea how to find things on YouTube, but there was another one I saw some time ago which showed Kerry's ongoing criticizm of the Clinton administration throughout the '90s for not going after Saddam because he 'knew' Saddam had WMDs.
This one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i87cZ3Og6ts)? At about the 1 minute mark.

EDIT: Hahahahaha! Love the music selection!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ducimus]

WMD, NBC, CBS, CNN, BBC - whatever. :p



Nuclear Biological Chemical.


That is the correct term. It is the term i was trained in the military, and is the term the miltary uses when discussing those topics. NBC. I refuse to call it WMD simply because Bush Junior is too grammatically stupid to pronounce Nuclear correctly.

[August]

I refuse to call it WMD simply because Bush Junior is too grammatically stupid to pronounce Nuclear correctly.

Are you saying the President created the term WMD?

[Konovalov]

I refuse to call it WMD simply because Bush Junior is too grammatically stupid to pronounce Nuclear correctly.

Are you saying the President created the term WMD?

I thought that the statement by Ducimus was absolutely clear and I cannot see anywhere that he implied such in regards to your question. Was this a trick question on your part or just a pointless and needless one?

[waste gate]

I have no idea how to find things on YouTube, but there was another one I saw some time ago which showed Kerry's ongoing criticizm of the Clinton administration throughout the '90s for not going after Saddam because he 'knew' Saddam had WMDs.
This one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i87cZ3Og6ts)? At about the 1 minute mark.

EDIT: Hahahahaha! Love the music selection!!!!!!!!!!!!


Will you please stop re-writing history. The people speaking surely are not who they claim to be. It is a trick being played upon the American people.

[August]

I refuse to call it WMD simply because Bush Junior is too grammatically stupid to pronounce Nuclear correctly.
Are you saying the President created the term WMD?
I thought that the statement by Ducimus was absolutely clear and I cannot see anywhere that he implied such in regards to your question. Was this a trick question on your part or just a pointless and needless one?
Then you are either not very observant or deliberately ignoring the implication. Perhaps since you claim to understand the statement you would explain the Bush reference?

[Konovalov]

Then you are either not very observant or deliberately ignoring the implication. Perhaps since you claim to understand the statement you would explain the Bush reference?
Neither. Ducimus can deal with it.

[August]

Neither. Ducimus can deal with it.

Cut and run eh? :D

[Konovalov]

Neither. Ducimus can deal with it.

Cut and run eh? :D

:lol: I think you've swallowed too many sound bites.

[August]

Neither. Ducimus can deal with it.
Cut and run eh? :D
:lol: I think you've swallowed too many sound bites.

I've been emboldened.

[Konovalov]

Neither. Ducimus can deal with it.
Cut and run eh? :D
:lol: I think you've swallowed too many sound bites.

I've been emboldened.
Tou-che. :)