The benefits of Multiculturalism in Britain

[Narcosis]

Briton 'plotted to kill thousands'

http://stb.msn.com/i/C2/9614532AD49686C49FE51B8E5C47.jpg



A British al Qaida terrorist plotted "massive explosions" in the UK and United States designed to kill thousands of people, a court heard.
Barot set out plans for co-ordinated back-to-back attacks "as they were on 9/11".
Barot wrote that his plans would form "another black day for the enemies of Islam and a victory for the Muslims".


http://uk.msn.com/

[STEED]

Gizzmoe is going to edit that! Too late Gizzmoe he's beaten you to it, hang on it's not wrapped in a quote. Gizzmoe your needed.


Links only.
Headline and a few lines are OK as well but the whole thing is a no,no.

And any way it's a on going court case, I shall make a comment when he is sentenced.

[Yahoshua]

I remember Gizzmoe saying that if the article is short (as it is in the above) that it won't really need to be edited. But for Skybird-length-articles, then provide the link only and not post the entire article.

[Narcosis]

And any way it's a on going court case, I shall make a comment when he is sentenced.




I heard on newsnight that the idiot has confessed to planning, all that he has been accused of.
To much evidence on his computers and in Pakistan to deny the charges.

That explains why the media have let the info out.

[STEED]

I bet he will only get 10 to 15 years, we shall see.

[HunterICX]

Meh...benefits...

if someone could name one...I would kiss him on the mouth.
(crap, I wish i didnt mention that)

those muslim terrorist dogs needs only one punishment.
Rip his pasport appart, and ban him out of the country let him rot in his own.

In holland we have a same sort of figure going under the name of
Samir.A he also have plans to do things to governement building and politicians.
now, the funny part is this is going on for so long
Court - Set free, Court - Set free, getting sick of it and now they are trying to get him 15 years behind bars

what a waste of money! rip his passport appart and send him back to his own country.

[Kapitan]

The only benifit of the whole issue is making it look as if we care when 90% of the true british population couldnt care less wether these people crawled up a pipe and died, i personaly have no time and want nothing to do with muslims who preach hate.

[Bertgang]

Well, I have nothing to say about this guy, but multiculturalism really has, at least, one advandage.

Kebab is a fine add to european gastronomy; not my overall favourite, but a good alternate choice when you are looking for fast food.

[DAB]

what a waste of money! rip his passport appart and send him back to his own country.

Err... he is in his own country. He lived in Britain his entire life.

Multiculturalism works, and has a number of advantages. The input of new ideas, diversity in the economy, teaches tollarance in the community. All this talk about a Britishness standard is total misguided victorian rhetoric.

I live in a multicultural community. Fifty Percent of the community are the local Welsh speaking population, the rest of us are divided between various groups. We have a significant Israeli population, and a simular sized Palestinian community for that matter. A very large proportion of Muslims and Hindus live in the town, probably just about outnumbering the Chinese Population. And the most recent addition to the community has been an influx of Polish people contracted to rebuild parts of the University.

The key is education. The University is the major employer in the town, pulling in a lot of skills from outside the area. The students make up a fantastic proportion of the population. And thats the point, the key is nothing to do with Britishness, ethnicity or cultural origins. Its to do with education. Most people in Aberystwyth have their 6 GCSE's and 3 A-Levels. They have learnt to think. As a consiquence, we don't collect in ghetos, or keep to our own. When I was a student, I spent two years living with Muslims. That I was Catholic had no bearing on attitudes towards me. The only effect it had was that they kept tempting foods out of the way during Lent, just as I avoided eating in front of them during the day at Rammadan.

Education breeds tolorance. We don't have violence in this town, we don't get the Welsh saying "Saes mynd hafan" (English Go Home), or Aberystwyth for the indiginious Christian population. The alternative is model is the Northern Ireland system, where everyone keeps to their small part of the city. That bred a century of secterian violence and I find it difficult to believe that any British person on these forums would seriously advocate that as the model community.

The only benifit of the whole issue is making it look as if we care when 90% of the true british population couldnt care less wether these people crawled up a pipe and died, i personaly have no time and want nothing to do with muslims who preach hate.

True British Population!?!? Technically they only exist in North Scotland and Western Wales (and arguably Cornwall). What do you mean by True British?

[The Avon Lady]

I bet he will only get 10 to 15 years, we shall see.
Local press (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378345762&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) says he just got 40 years minimum.

[Narcosis]

I bet he will only get 10 to 15 years, we shall see.
Local press (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378345762&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) says he just got 40 years minimum.



To add to that. Here is detail from UK media.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13550705,00.html

[Narcosis]

what a waste of money! rip his passport appart and send him back to his own country.

Err... he is in his own country. He lived in Britain his entire life.

Multiculturalism works, and has a number of advantages. The input of new ideas, diversity in the economy, teaches tollarance in the community. All this talk about a Britishness standard is total misguided victorian rhetoric.

I live in a multicultural community. Fifty Percent of the community are the local Welsh speaking population, the rest of us are divided between various groups. We have a significant Israeli population, and a simular sized Palestinian community for that matter. A very large proportion of Muslims and Hindus live in the town, probably just about outnumbering the Chinese Population. And the most recent addition to the community has been an influx of Polish people contracted to rebuild parts of the University.

The key is education. The University is the major employer in the town, pulling in a lot of skills from outside the area. The students make up a fantastic proportion of the population. And thats the point, the key is nothing to do with Britishness, ethnicity or cultural origins. Its to do with education. Most people in Aberystwyth have their 6 GCSE's and 3 A-Levels. They have learnt to think. As a consiquence, we don't collect in ghetos, or keep to our own. When I was a student, I spent two years living with Muslims. That I was Catholic had no bearing on attitudes towards me. The only effect it had was that they kept tempting foods out of the way during Lent, just as I avoided eating in front of them during the day at Rammadan.

Education breeds tolorance. We don't have violence in this town, we don't get the Welsh saying "Saes mynd hafan" (English Go Home), or Aberystwyth for the indiginious Christian population. The alternative is model is the Northern Ireland system, where everyone keeps to their small part of the city. That bred a century of secterian violence and I find it difficult to believe that any British person on these forums would seriously advocate that as the model community.

The only benifit of the whole issue is making it look as if we care when 90% of the true british population couldnt care less wether these people crawled up a pipe and died, i personaly have no time and want nothing to do with muslims who preach hate.

True British Population!?!? Technically they only exist in North Scotland and Western Wales (and arguably Cornwall). What do you mean by True British?



What a load of crap !

[Kapitan]

True british being the people that were born in england, if your born in england dosnt that make you english regardless if your pearents come from pakistan or india or some where else?

[Narcosis]

True british being the people that were born in england, if your born in england dosnt that make you english regardless if your pearents come from pakistan or india or some where else?



In theory. But people who understand what really is going on in our country. Understand that Muslims dont give a Sh*t about our country, only their religion.

Hence why 1,000s of young Mulsims are trying to kill us.

As evident by the recent trial of one scum bag (out of 24 on trial) and the london bomber scum bags.


Police view on Muslim activity in the UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5306580.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5306580.stm)

Unfortunately like Dab above.
A lot of people do not understand Islam or its teachings and continue to walk in limbo.
They don’t believe that Mohammed murdered people and had a wife of 9 years old and had black slaves and had an army that went on killing sprees.

So until they do our country will continue to head towards the abyss

[Rockstar]

Just because you are born in country doesn't make you a 'brit'. It's a culture it's a way of life that has been refined over the years. For instance they have a queen, Brits talk funny and depending upon the region it's nothing more than unintelligble gibberish especially when they're pissed, drive on the wrong side of the road, enjoy a higher cost of living than here in the colonies, they can drink you under the table, love to brawl, and have a diet of some the most aweful tasting food ever known to mankind.

Some jerk born in the UK living in such a way that would make mohammed proud is not a Brit.

Thats my narrowminded intolerant view and I'm sticking to it.

[DAB]

True british being the people that were born in england, if your born in england dosnt that make you english regardless if your pearents come from pakistan or india or some where else?
So us Welsh and Scots shall does go away shall we. The English were immigrents once as well I would point out. In fact, the welsh word for the English means immigrant. :D

What a load of crap ! What a fundermentally grounded debating position you have there.

n theory. But people who understand what really is going on in our country. Understand that Muslims dont give a Sh*t about our country, only their religion.

Hence why 1,000s of young Mulsims are trying to kill us.

As evident by the recent trial of one scum bag (out of 24 on trial) and the london bomber scum bags.

Lets play a numbers game shall we. The 2001 Census noted there were 1.6m people living in the United Kingdom who identified themselves as belonging to a Muslim denomination. Now the report you've linked too (which doesn't actually say what you want it to say I should add) only says thousends. Odds are he means a figure of say 4,000 - but lets take the theoretical maximum he could mean by that and say MI5 are watching 9,999 muslims. That equates to MI5 monitoring (at the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM) 0.62% of the Muslim population. The figure is likley to be closer to 0.31% - Hardly a fifth column!

Unfortunately like Dab above.
A lot of people do not understand Islam or its teachings and continue to walk in limbo.
They don’t believe that Mohammed murdered people and had a wife of 9 years old and had black slaves and had an army that went on killing sprees.

So until they do our country will continue to head towards the abyss

Oh, Mohammed killed in the name of his religion, i'm sure. But there again, Pope Julius II famously did the same thing (Popes by the way are Gods representatives on Earth and everything they do is Gods actions), and need I remind you of the traditional Christian method of spreading the faith.

Mohammed had a wife of 9 years? Wasn't that the age of Margaret Beaufort in the 15th century (hint, 500 years after Mohammed) when she married Edmund Tudor (who was close to 40). Certainly Margaret had only just hit 13 when she fell pregnant with the future Henry VII (who by the way Kaptain was Welsh)

Mohammed had black slaves!? Wow, what a revelation, wasn't slavery common in Britain in the 18th century come to think of it. As for raging armies that go on killing sprees. The British Army was accused of that in the 1970's!

I think though I have a good understanding of Islamic Practice, if not its teachings - you can not share a house with muslims for two years and share an office with one without getting to grips with the fundermental philosophies - especially when you both enjoy religious debates.

You can't judge my religion based on Leviticus (and don't tell me no one takes any notice of that book of the bible - Its quoted every other day in Christian debates on Homosexuality etc), so I wont judge anouther religion based on a couple of passages in a book written 1500 years ago.

Get over it, people from anouther society are in your country. We've been dealing with homegrown terrorism in this country for 500 years, and I for one am not going to score an own goal by discriminating against members of my community and driving them into the hands of my enemies.

[Aguecheek]

Thats my narrowminded intolerant view and I'm sticking to it.
Interesting outsider's perspective on some of British culture. However, there are just a few of points it might be worth raising:

they have a queen
Anyone living in this country as a citizen is automatically a subject of Her Majesty. I believe new immigrants have to take an oath these days anyway.

Brits talk funny and depending upon the region it's nothing more than unintelligble gibberish especially when they're pissed
Brits these days move around a lot. One of my best friends have a strong Wigan accent, another is a Scouser. Both live in the same town now. So, what can be said about them? Well, they do "talk funny" depending on the region they're from. Arguably then, so do any imigrants. They merely talk with the accent they were born to, same as any other brit.

And find me one person who doesn't talk unintelligble gibberish when they're pissed.

drive on the wrong side of the road
Again, find me an immigrant who goes around Britain driving on the right hand side. That is a new one on me! (Incidently, driving on the left is statistically safer as for right handed people it means your strong hand is the one that doesn't leave the wheel... so perhaps it's not the wrong side).

enjoy a higher cost of living than here in the colonies
Any immigrant living here enjoys the same cost of living as anyone else in the country.

they can drink you under the table
Not all of them. One of the most classically "British" men I know is teetotal.

love to brawl
Only football fans. And not even most of them. Are you criticising imigrants for not being violent enough now?!

have a diet of some the most aweful tasting food ever known to mankind.
The nation's favourite dish is actually statistically either chinese or curry...

Some jerk born in the UK living in such a way that would make mohammed proud is not a Brit.
Not even if, whilst obeying the Koran, he respects the Queen, uses the accent of the area he was born in, drives on the left, pays the higher cost of living, is teetotal, eats the national dishes, (actually thinking about this, my local chippy is run by immigrants...) and is proud to believe his is a Brit?

I'm afraid your argument isn't holding water.

[Rockstar]

First off it's not an arguement, my association with brits was when I sailed with them aboard their frigates in the caribbean. Sorry I should have pasted a smiley so you would get it.


Not even if, whilst obeying the Koran, he respects the Queen, uses the accent of the area he was born in, drives on the left, pays the higher cost of living, is teetotal, eats the national dishes, (actually thinking about this, my local chippy is run by immigrants...) and is proud to believe his is a Brit?

However I will argue this, If a so called 'brit' is obeying the Koran he then follows Sunnah, listens to the Haddith and adheres to the doctrine of al-Tariyya . He has no respect for the authority of the Queen, your laws, culture or you. He is not as he may appear.

One who exposes something from our religion is like one who intentionally kills us

You (a muslim) belong to a religion that whosoever conceals it, Allah will honor him and whosoever reveals it, Allah will disgrace him.

Hadith Iman Jafar Sadiq

[DAB]

So, your saying that everyone who follows a religion follows it unerringly to the letter, follows a litterol interpretation of everything that is said and seeks to enact everything that is written?

[STEED]

So he got 40 years big deal that means in the real world 20 years thanks too the CPS recommendations and don't forget time spent in custody resulting in a further reduction in sentence. And a possible appeal.

At the end of the day he's got access to TV and DVD films and a radio and Cd's and all the rest, let us not forget he will not be paying tax.

Yea right British justice, what a joke. :nope:

[Kapitan]

1) i love to drink
2) i love to brawl
3) i am part british only by a piece of paper in my passport
4) there isnt one yet

[Aguecheek]

However I will argue this, If a so called 'brit' is obeying the Koran he then follows Sunnah, listens to the Haddith and adheres to the doctrine of al-Tariyya . He has no respect for the authority of the Queen, your laws, culture or you. He is not as he may appear.

Are you suggesting a white christian brit who, say, commits murder, (not usually considered to be a part of our cultural identity) is also no longer british?

[Rockstar]

I said some jerk living in way that would make mohammed proud does.

You say "well he is a good muslim" or that "he is a bad one" by what means or authority do you make this judgement? Contrary to popular belief those who you have judged as a good muslim will also die at the hands of the true believer of Jihad al-faasiqueen. Unless of course their trembling lips can persuade the believer they feared for their lives at the hands of the kafir.

As long as a muslim lives in a country where Islam is the minority deception is allowed.

The nonbelievers arrested `Ammar Ibn Yasir and tortured him until he uttered foul words about the Prophet (Muhammad), and praised their gods and idols; and when they released him, he went straight to the Prophet. The Prophet said: "Is there something on your mind?" `Ammar Ibn Yasir said: "Bad news! They would not release me until I defamed you and praised their gods!" The Prophet said: "How do you find your heart to be?" `Ammar answered: "Comfortable with faith." So the Prophet said: "Then if they come back for you, then do the same thing all over again." Allah at that moment revealed the verse: "....except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in faith... [Surah 16:106]"

Mohammed encourages lying and blaspheme and to deny their beliefs if it protects them as long as they were "comfortable with faith."

Taqiyya is the uttering of the tongue, while the heart is comfortable with faith.
Ibn Abbas

[Rockstar]

If he believes in Jesus Christ his purpose and calls himself a Christian he still battles against the old man and sin.

If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

He will pay his debt according to the laws of the land. It is why Jesus prevented Peter from killing those who came to take Christ at Gethsemane. Jesus knew the punishment for murder was death.

Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

I do not say this to make an excuse for the 'Christian' to commit murder. It is against the will of God our savior to do so. But it may happen and if it does he will pay for it one way or another.

Also a Christian is also a citizen he is commanded by the God of Issac to pray for his leaders, to obey and fear the powers that are in authority over him those powers ordained of God.

[DAB]

Rockstar.

You take the broadest definition and widest interpretation of the words of the Bible, and then use the narrowest, most distorted definition of the words of the Koran.

Is your faith in Christianity really so shaky that you can not abide a rival doctrine?

If you believe, you believe, and you do not have to rationalise that belief. But neither should you have to distort anouther religion to try and make yours look better. It just looks like your afraid your own beliefs will not stand up to scrutany.

[Aguecheek]

If he believes in Jesus Christ his purpose and calls himself a Christian he still battles against the old man and sin.

All that you say may well be true - I'm no theologin - but it wasn't quite what I asked.

Your premise appears to be that a person is not British if they do not conform to British culture, and we have pretty much agreed that it is difficult to point at individual elements of British culture and agree on their intricity. Therefore, in order to identify British culture, it must be done by looking at what model of it would include.

I'd say that no-one would say that murder is a part of British culture, but, if your argument is followed, it would be the case that a person who commits murder is then no longer british and this is patantly not true.

[Rockstar]

Egads man it's their words not mine how have I distorted it? Really you need to look at more than the Quran to understand Islam. The Trodden path (Sunnah), and the Sayings of Muuhammed (Hadith), Sirat (biography) literature it is where you see much of what I've spoken about here you will not find it in the Quran.

Open your eyes lad read it all compare it with what you see happening today nothing is distorted.

[Aguecheek]

Call me crazy... but wouldn't looking at Muslims be the best way to understand Islam?

[DAB]

Egads man it's their words not mine how have I distorted it? Really you need to look at more than the Quran to understand Islam. The Trodden path (Sunnah), and the Sayings of Muuhammed (Hadith), Sirat (biography) literature it is where you see much of what I've spoken about here you will not find it in the Quran.

Open your eyes lad read it all compare it with what you see happening today nothing is distorted.

Quite a measured response considering how some would have replied to my last post.

What I'm saying is that you are not acknowledging that many muslims take a methophorical approach to what the Koran says, just as many christians take a methaphorical approach to the Bible. If I read the bible litorally, then I must take action to stop my sisters wearing clothes made of two threads, I must not eat crops grown alongside other crops.

According to the Bible, Rape is a property crime. If you commit rape, you are to be punished, unless you marry your victim in which case you haven't devalued the fathers property and thus you need not be punished. Now I find that obhorrant. Don't you. I don't acknowledge that I have to live by that creed, and I doubt you do too.

So why do you not give a follower of Islamic Tradition the same sort of break.

[Yahoshua]

Brits talk funny and depending upon the region it's nothing more than unintelligble gibberish especially when they're pissed

When you think about it, the Britons are speaking English correctly, but those of us here in the states have an American accent:know: .

[kiwi_2005]

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/mischazion/ICONS/arrivalatDover.jpg

[HunterICX]

:rotfl: hehehe kiwi-good find:up:

[STEED]

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/mischazion/ICONS/arrivalatDover.jpg

The whole office rocked with laughter when I showed them this. :rock:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[DAB]

So did a Conservative politician, until her party (thats the party calling for strict immigration controls) suspended her for racism. You should find the link in the Politics Section of the BBC News website.

Anyone else up for debating cold hard facts and figures - or are we going to stick to dogmatic feeling in my toes level debating.

[STEED]

BBC News no thanks I shall pass on that one.

[Rockstar]

What I'm saying is that you are not acknowledging that many muslims take a methophorical approach to what the Koran says, just as many christians take a methaphorical approach to the Bible. If I read the bible litorally, then I must take action to stop my sisters wearing clothes made of two threads, I must not eat crops grown alongside other crops.

According to the Bible, Rape is a property crime. If you commit rape, you are to be punished, unless you marry your victim in which case you haven't devalued the fathers property and thus you need not be punished. Now I find that obhorrant. Don't you. I don't acknowledge that I have to live by that creed, and I doubt you do too.

So why do you not give a follower of Islamic Tradition the same sort of break.

The only reference to rape in the Bible I can find is in Deuteronomy

But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

The key words here are and the man force her Here the punishment for rape is death. But the woman is not described as property but a betrothed damsel which means a unmarried woman contracted to be married.

In Genises 34 rape was not the crime nor was Dinah described as property.

If you have questions regarding rape and property in the Bible be specific. These are the only two that come to mind right now.

Now regarding laws, let me ask who among has kept the law? Shoot if I remember correctly I read once in a topic here that there are well over 3000 religious laws in Israel. So I ask again who among have been able to keep those? The law proves on thing guilt, because nobody has been able to keep them all. Hence the need for a Savior.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

And what makes a me a believer in the God of Israel different than a true believer of Allah? I will not kill you because of your unbelief. Metaphorical believers have builded there foundation on sand. Find the firm foundation.

[The Avon Lady]

According to the Bible, Rape is a property crime.
Since this is in the Torah, let's exclude Christianity, since they've done away with believeing in any commandments except for the "Big Ten".

That leaves Judaism. So to initiate my reponse, I'll say 2 things:

1. Nonsense.

2. This has been fully disputed by me here in the past, so I'll make this repeat performance short.
If you commit rape, you are to be punished, unless you marry your victim in which case you haven't devalued the fathers property
What? Who? Hah? Heh? Father's property? Where does it say this?

By the way, this case is when the women was not engaged or married according to Jewish legal law. And it applies whether this was rape or consensual. And the woman always has to choice to say yes or no. In other words, she can actually force the man to marry her.
and thus you need not be punished.
Explained above.
Now I find that obhorrant. Don't you.
Go back to your sources.
I don't acknowledge that I have to live by that creed, and I doubt you do too.

So why do you not give a follower of Islamic Tradition the same sort of break.Because you're perverting orthodox Quranic teachings and law the same way you just did to Torah law. Get both of them straight and then you'll have the basis for a more accurate discussion and the ability to discern between one religion and another.

[The Noob]

Multiculturalism is a fine thing. But we have to be careful with it. We should only take the good things from different cultures, not the bad ones. Take Kebap from Iran, Throw the Djihad back to them.

Kebab is a fine add to european gastronomy; not my overall favourite, but a good alternate choice when you are looking for fast food.
Agreed.

[DAB]

If you have questions regarding rape and property in the Bible be specific. These are the only two that come to mind right now.

A phan fyddo I way wnelo a benyw, a bli the yn foywyn gaeth wedi ei dyweddio I wy ac heb ei rhyddhau ddim, neu heb roddi rhydd did iddi, bydded wynt gurfa, ac naladder hwynt, am nad oedd hi rydd.

I honestly can't be bothered to look it up in an English language Bible, (Its Leviticus 19:20) besides there are so many translations out there we could play word games for decades, but the wording in the Welsh Language Bible makes it clear that sexual abuse is to be redeamed through the payment of a Ram as opposed to the death of the purpetrator - which is the punishment for practically every other sexual crime going.

The religious discussion of off topic and I have no intention of getting drawn into a "My religion is better then yours debate" The discussion is multicultrualism and whilst that very quickly was turned into a rant on this forums favourate boggymen - lets get back to reality.

Immigration and Multiculturalism in Britain.

Well first of all, I invite Kaptain and Steed to actually come up with five character traits shared by the English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish. We have different national holidays, religious events. Football is the national sport of England and Scotland - but Rugby is the National Sport of Wales. They drink Tea in the South East, but Coffee in London. We have different flags, the English flag is a cross, the Scottish Flag is Blue and the Welsh flag has a dragon on it.

We don't even speak the same language. This is the first time I think I've spoken or thought in English today. So, someone tell me what Britishness (not Englishness Kaptain) is? Because a lot of us who are working in politics would love to know. The truth is, this country gave up its monoculture when the Statute of Rhuddun was signed in the Thirteenth Century and it was the Conservatives in this country that can up with the doctrine of One Nation - where the ties that bind our society together are in our diversity and our desire to understand.

So lets go onto Immigration. The majority of people who come into the UK apply for a visa, arrive in London, find a job, work, pay taxes, use our cafes, go clubbing. Whats your problem!? I work in a place which recurits on merit only, about a quarter of us are Welsh, just under half were born in Britain, the rest are Europeans, Americans, Africans, Arab and Chinesse. Did I mention we recruit on merrit!? In our field, we are the best performing centre of excellence in Europe. So much for multiculturalism failing there.

On Asylum. Lets consider what exactly happens to the average Asylum seaker.

They arrive in a Lorry after a week of constant movement by people smugglers who have taken large amounts of cash off them. If the individual is a women, then odds are she may have suffered abuse, maybe even rape. When they arrive, one of three things will happen - they will either be found in the ports, or they will be dumped by the smugglers in the middle of the countryside. And those are the lucky ones. The third lot are kept as slaves. The men are forced to do manual labour for gangs. The women are sold into Protetution. A good number of that lot will probably be murdered before they even reach the Asylum system.

So they claim asylum. A decision is then made. Do you allow this person to live in the community, or do we detain them. If they are detained, and lucky, they end up in a specialised centre. However, because everyone seems to have a not in my backyard attitude - we don't have enough of these facilities. Instead, vunerable people are placed in the prison system (wondered why our Prisons are full) and moved around sometimes on a monthly basis. Sometimes, children are being accomidated in adult prisons with their parents.

Those who are accomidated in the community fair little better. The general opinion in the UK is that a person on state benefits needs around £100 to live. An Asylum seeker will recieve £32 in vouchers last time I checked the statistic. Valid in only a few supermarkets - and you have to support potentually a family on that.

Then your case is assessed. The person assessing your case with have left school at 16 and will have three GCSE's. They will also have anouther 14 cases to get through that day. There are no country experts, they will have no specialised training and better yet they don't even try and match the genders of the interviewer and interviee. There have been absurd cases where someone from an ethnic group being attacked has been told there isn't a civil war in that country - even better one young girl was refussed an application because she hadn't attended a rape clinic upon arrival in the UK. She was 11, and dissapeared in her country of origin within a week of arrival. A British Charity is trying to find the body for the family.



Let me tell you a little secret. Asylum is not the easiest route into the UK if you are a terrorist. That is why so many British terrorists are homegrown. Its easier to recruit someone who passes all the security checks already. Alternatively, you can get a yacht and land someone away from the ports.

Point is, all these immigrants, all these asylum seekers are not the threats you all think they are. What you are looking for is someone who has turned to religion in their late teens. Is from a semi affluent upbringing, but in near enough contact with poverty to become idealised. And more importantly, your looking for someone with a good command of English - because they need to get incensed by the sort of crap we see in this thread to be turned by the extremists.

My final point. Some of Al Quida's best opperatives have been White, Caucasion males. Its not just those with darker skin colours who are extreme.

[joea]

Fantastic post DAB!!!! :rock:

[joea]

Multiculturalism is a fine thing. But we have to be careful with it. We should only take the good things from different cultures, not the bad ones. Take Kebap from Iran, Throw the Djihad back to them.

Kebab is a fine add to european gastronomy; not my overall favourite, but a good alternate choice when you are looking for fast food. Agreed.

A good post from N00b as well (didn't want to quote DAB's entire post). Really disgusted by some of the stuff I am reading here.

[TteFAboB]

I disagree, I think DAB is throwing STEED on grounds he's never stepped on, rejecting things never called for (he can only assume STEED wants X and Y) and equating Al-Qaeda with white "extremists".

Has STEED ever commited an act of terrorism DAB? Are you implying STEED is a terrorist or condones terrorism? What about you joea, do you also believe STEED is planning terror attacks at this very moment?

Absurd.

Finally, there's the great misconception that young Muslims would feel incensed by what's written in this thread and thus go commit terrorism.

First, terrorists don't have a problem with what anybody on this thread does but with what they are: infidels. They can be good infidels, friendly infidels or submissive infidels, it doesn't matter.

Second, what about Jews who disagree with you DAB? All things being equal, they should feel incensed by what you write and start plotting your murder. Facts prove you wrong.

If you had any appreciation for reality you would've known that there is no lack of extreme anti-christian/jew/religion all over Britain. Yet, where's the incession? Where's the bombing? Where's the extremism? Last Christmass some council decided to ban Christmass decorations, since there are many more Christians in Britain than Muslims, we would expect Christian terror brigades to be born easily, or are these not homegrown? Does it take some time for them to arrive from Mars?

Lastly, how many posters do we have in this thread, less than 20? That's few enough to specify, there's no need to generalize, yet, I have no idea of what you mean by "the sort of crap we see on this thread". Could be about the Kebab or your lack of respect and tolerance for any differing theology than your own fundamentalist/literary one, how very extremist of yours.

It is true that Al-Qaeda's best opperatives are white, but not in the sense you mean it. The best operatives are the officials from the British government, the intellectuals, journalists and other agents that decided not to crack down on terrorists and only recently start to put pressure on extremist Imams.

[Yahoshua]

(Eats popcorn, laughs, then eats more popcorn)

[ASWnut101]

*grabs popcorn bag*

gimmie that!:p

*shoves face in bag*

[Yahoshua]

(smiles, cuz Yaho has a cold and ASW doesn't know it yet)

[The Noob]

I have a cold too. Damn.

*Sneezes in ASW's popcorn*

:D

[bookworm_020]

*Laughs as others fight over the popcorn, while I eat chocolate, chips and drink all the soft drink without them realizing!*:D:yep:

I'm a tea totaler:smug:

[The Noob]

I'm a tea totaler:smug: I don't like tea. It's too dangerous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHF7B7bGqfE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHdgstg-7KY

:know:

[Yahoshua]

:rotfl:

[The Avon Lady]

First you say:
The discussion is multicultrualism and whilst that very quickly was turned into a rant on this forums favourate boggymen - lets get back to reality.
Then you end off with:
My final point. Some of Al Quida's best opperatives have been White, Caucasion males. Its not just those with darker skin colours who are extreme.
You can't have your cake and eat it, too, as the saying goes.

The mistake of multiculturism is not multiculturism itself. It's Islam's inflitration through it.

There might be one other negative effect of multicultuirsm and that is political correctness, It shows.

[Narcosis]

The head of MI5 has given a chilling assessment of the scale of the terror threat in the UK.

saying that it will last "a generation".
In a rare public statement, Dame Eliza Manningham-Buller said that the security services are dealing with up to 30 plots designed to cause mass casualties.
She also says MI5 agents and the police are tracking more than 1,600 suspects.
Dame Eliza warned that weapons of mass destruction could be used in future attacks.
She voiced concern that many of those involved were British citizens, radicalised by friends and by material on the internet.
She said that some of the plots being tracked involved suicide bombers, and others were being directed by al Qaeda.
She said: "Today we see the use of home-made improvised explosive devices, but I suggest tomorrow's threat will include the use of chemicals, bacteriological agents, radioactive materials and even nuclear technology."
"If the opinion polls conducted in the UK since July are only broadly accurate, over 100,000 of our citizens consider that the July bomb attacks in London were justified," she added.
"The threat is serious, is growing, and will, I believe, be with us for a generation. It is a sustained campaign, not a series of isolated incidents. It aims to wear down our will to resist."



http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13551586,00.html

[DAB]

I disagree, I think DAB is throwing STEED on grounds he's never stepped on, rejecting things never called for (he can only assume STEED wants X and Y) and equating Al-Qaeda with white "extremists".
Did I? I mentioned Steed once in my last post, and that was a challenge for him to come up with five "British" charactor traits that are evident across the British Nations. Where did I 'throw him'?

Has STEED ever commited an act of terrorism DAB? Are you implying STEED is a terrorist or condones terrorism? What about you joea, do you also believe STEED is planning terror attacks at this very moment? In what way is that related to any of the posts written by anyone on this thread!?

Finally, there's the great misconception that young Muslims would feel incensed by what's written in this thread and thus go commit terrorism.

First, terrorists don't have a problem with what anybody on this thread does but with what they are: infidels. They can be good infidels, friendly infidels or submissive infidels, it doesn't matter.
Actually, I don't think terrorists equate the concept of a good infidel. I'd imagine they all consider us to be equally worthy of being murdered!

Second, what about Jews who disagree with you DAB? All things being equal, they should feel incensed by what you write and start plotting your murder. Facts prove you wrong.
Took my a while to see what you were getting at here. You had me trawling through my posts for any reference to Judism.

I'm sure there are extremists in any society, and there probably is some nutcase who wants to kill me for something or other but anyway.

The times when I have flown into Tel Aviv, I've walked around the streets of that city and found it to be very safe city. Even traveling into East
Jerusalem lacks any of the connitations you get from the media. Which begs a question. If all Muslims are bloodthursty animals looking to kill Jews or Christians... why is it that so many 67's (thats the local term for a Palestinian Muslim) living there have security passes that allow them to travel freely around Israel. Surely they are such a dangurous threat that they must be locked up and surrounded constantly by soldiers.

Is it because maybe the Israeli government acknoweldges these people are human beings and that the majority of them have never committed a crime. The only other explanation is that the Israeli authorities are idiots... I don't believe that, anyone care to argue that point!?

If you had any appreciation for reality you would've known that there is no lack of extreme anti-christian/jew/religion all over Britain. Yet, where's the incession? Where's the bombing? Where's the extremism? Last Christmass some council decided to ban Christmass decorations, since there are many more Christians in Britain than Muslims, we would expect Christian terror brigades to be born easily, or are these not homegrown? Does it take some time for them to arrive from Mars?
No its just the Catholic and Protestant Terrorists are still caught up in Northern Ireland. And yes there is still a problem there. Last week, a young women was doused with Petrol and set alight. Her crime, to date someone from a different demonination OF THE SAME BLOODY RELIGION!!!

For someone who started your post with a broadside claiming I was putting words into peoples mouths, your doing a good job of scoring your own goals. Since when did the forcible removal of religious icons and the playing down of religious festivals have anything to do with multiculturalism - surely thats monoculturalism on a orwellian scale.

And for the record, the people I have heard calling for the abolition of Christmas tend to be Jehova's Witnesses and Puritains.

Lastly, how many posters do we have in this thread, less than 20? That's few enough to specify, there's no need to generalize, yet, I have no idea of what you mean by "the sort of crap we see on this thread". Could be about the Kebab or your lack of respect and tolerance for any differing theology than your own fundamentalist/literary one, how very extremist of yours.
Well if you want specifics.

We will ignore STEED's highly inaccruate estimation of his prison sentence.
HunterICX in post 6 referring to Muslim Terrorist Dogs. Very pedestrian insults.
Post 7. What the hell does Kaptain mean by True British population. He didn't help matters when he said you had to be born in England (post 10 I think)
Post 14, Line One - such a sweeping generalisation, it was close to incitement under the UK's religious hatred laws. Doesn't help with the last line, what the hell does something that happened 1500 years ago have to do with the present debate.
Post 15, saying that living your life acording to Islamic teaching is incompatable with British Life.
Post 20: Steed saying that terrorist will do 15-20 years. 40 years is the minimum tarriff!!!
Kiwi_2005 posting something that the Conservative Party has derrided as Racist. (before the flame war about me accusing people of things, look at the careful way I posted this bullet point) It is true that Al-Qaeda's best opperatives are white, but not in the sense you mean it. The best operatives are the officials from the British government, the intellectuals, journalists and other agents that decided not to crack down on terrorists and only recently start to put pressure on extremist Imams.
Thats funny, its going on the office noticeboard. It could almost be taken from the writings of many third world dictators and left wing revolutionaries. "We must save the country from those who are saying something different from us"

[DAB]

First you say:
The discussion is multicultrualism and whilst that very quickly was turned into a rant on this forums favourate boggymen - lets get back to reality. Then you end off with:
My final point. Some of Al Quida's best opperatives have been White, Caucasion males. Its not just those with darker skin colours who are extreme. You can't have your cake and eat it, too, as the saying goes.

The mistake of multiculturism is not multiculturism itself. It's Islam's inflitration through it.

There might be one other negative effect of multicultuirsm and that is political correctness, It shows.

Isn't there a thread you started elsewhere on taking quotes out of context. The final quote came from a paragraph after I had moved back to the subject of terrorism.

And as for Political Correctness. If that means I judge someone as an individual, not on their faith, race, culture or class, and I defend Liberty and Freedom by applying it universally rather then repealing and selectively applying it, hell insult me with that one all you like

[joea]

Oh thank you for saving me some time DAB, I was composing a long answer to TteFAboB and you answered better than I could. He made a wonderful personal attack when I named no one in my comments. In fact I just agreed with your posts. I mean WTF? I never named anyone in my posts, and also get accused of being an extremist.

Oh and how many muslims have posted threads mocking Christian places of worship as we have had here about mosques. Just an aside from a past thread. :roll:

Seriously, what worries me is what these threads reflect societal attitudes more than having some kind of influence. So we have a choice between the crescent moon or a pair of hammers. Wonderful. :down:

[Yahoshua]

Oh and how many muslims have posted threads mocking Christian places of worship as we have had here about mosques. Just an aside from a past thread.

Why should they bother posting here when they can openly insult and denigrate people in the mosque itself (Australia is a good recent example).

[Konovalov]

Oh and how many muslims have posted threads mocking Christian places of worship as we have had here about mosques. Just an aside from a past thread.

Why should they bother posting here when they can openly insult and denigrate people in the mosque itself (Australia is a good recent example).

FYI Yahoshua I'm here, as have been other Muslims and not once can I recall any such behaviour as described above by anyone who I know to be a Muslim on this forum.

You certainly have some form of your own when it comes to insulting and denigrating people as evidenced by your comments towards the Democratic House Leader Nacy Pelosi as shown here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=100637&page=2
Pelosi is one frigid bridgid. Pro-taxes, Anti-Gun, and most certainly against the war.
Besides, I thought you were just on this thread "eating pop corn" and cheering on as you so often do. :roll:

[TteFAboB]

To joe: I was just pulling your leg. :oops:

I disagree...
Did I? I mentioned Steed once in my last post, and that was a challenge for him to come up with five "British" charactor traits that are evident across the British Nations. Where did I 'throw him'?

When you talk about immigration, here:

Whats your problem!?

Then on Asylum here:

However, because everyone seems to have a not in my backyard attitude...

What's your problem STEED? And he does seem to have a not in my backyard attitude, if only he knew this is putting asylum children in jail, or does he? Of course, if you say you haven't meant any of this at STEED, then this case is already closed.

Second, what about Jews who disagree with you DAB?...
Took my a while to see what you were getting at here. You had me trawling through my posts for any reference to Judism.

I'm sure there are extremists in any society, and there probably is some nutcase who wants to kill me for something or other but anyway.

The times when I have flown into Tel Aviv, I've walked around the streets of that city and found it to be very safe city. Even traveling into East
Jerusalem lacks any of the connitations you get from the media. Which begs a question. If all Muslims are bloodthursty animals looking to kill Jews or Christians... why is it that so many 67's (thats the local term for a Palestinian Muslim) living there have security passes that allow them to travel freely around Israel. Surely they are such a dangurous threat that they must be locked up and surrounded constantly by soldiers.

I will not go over this thread and search for other people's claims, so I can only speak for myself here. As I did not stated that all Muslims are bloodthursty animals looking to kill Jews or Christians that question will remain begging. Again, I do not speak for anybody else here, but I also haven't suggested that all Muslims are such a dangerous threat that they must be locked up and surrounded constantly by soldiers.

There's a sophist trick: read what isn't written, propose what wasn't called for, concluded what couldn't be concluded.

You've mentioned something about working on politics, have you ever considered a political career?

:p ;)

Is it because maybe the Israeli government acknoweldges these people are human beings and that the majority of them have never committed a crime. The only other explanation is that the Israeli authorities are idiots... I don't believe that, anyone care to argue that point!?

What is this supposed to mean? That the terror attacks or failed attempts in Britain, France, Germany and Spain happened because said governments didn't acknowledged these people as human beings and that the majority of them have never committed a crime? I disagree and agree. I disagree because the Israelis don't do more for them than the French do. But I agree if I take my understanding of what one has to do to acknowledge these people as human beings: that is giving them the treatment the 1st generation received. And this wasn't done with the 2nd. So that's true, the policy the 2nd generation received is inhumane or more inhumane than the first one. But that's no excuse. Irish, Italian, Japanese and other immigrants got it much worse in the USA and never exploded anything.

Sure the majority of "these people" (Muslims, immigrants, etc.) never committed any crime, I don't think any government will dispute that. Nor did the majority of the members of the Nazi party, or the Communists, or the Fascists nor did their victims commit any real crime either. Yes, crime is an exception not the rule.

These are or would like to, however, and Israel has become safer only because they are cracked upon: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061110/ts_nm/security_britain_dc

If you had any appreciation for reality you would've known that there is no lack of extreme anti-christian/jew/religion all over Britain.(...)
No its just the Catholic and Protestant Terrorists are still caught up in Northern Ireland. And yes there is still a problem there. Last week, a young women was doused with Petrol and set alight. Her crime, to date someone from a different demonination OF THE SAME BLOODY RELIGION!!!

That's not a conflict born out of anti-religious expressions, as if that was a valid excuse to go out killing people, but it is indeed a very important example. I do not intend to reduce the significance, the pain, grief and sorrow nor do I seek to get the corpses rolling in their graves, I do not seek to apologize, forgive, ignore, justify or condone anything.

But it puts things into perspective when we notice that the death toll of the three decade conflict between 1969 and 2001 (3,523) is 550 bodies more than what the Muslim terrorists killed in a single day of 2001 (2,973). What could they do in three decades then?

Source is wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles - down at the bottom, they took it from "Sutton Index of Deaths"; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11 - they took the numbers from various sources.

We're not counting the attacks in Iraq where Iraqis are killing Iraqis (Shi'ite, Sunni, Kurd, other) nor the attacks in India or Indonesia or the terrorism in Sudan, Ethiopia, Turkey, Morocco, Algeria, Israel-Gaza-Syria-Lebanon. I don't know if the Irish statistic includes disrupted terror plots but even without them, and with all due respect to the victims of the conflict, Islamic terror casts a shadow over Northern Ireland.

For someone who started your post with a broadside claiming I was putting words into peoples mouths, your doing a good job of scoring your own goals. Since when did the forcible removal of religious icons and the playing down of religious festivals have anything to do with multiculturalism - surely thats monoculturalism on a orwellian scale.

And for the record, the people I have heard calling for the abolition of Christmas tend to be Jehova's Witnesses and Puritains.

Who knows, I don't care for the whole multiculturalism part, there's alot of words flying around here. My point with that was about the motivational effect it should've had on fanatics since you were saying that the words written in this thread could motivate a young Muslim to embrace radicalism, unless there are no Christian fanatics in Britain or none that felt incensed by that decision. My point is that whatever anybody says, that's not an excuse for Muslim terrorists since all things being equal Christians aren't blowing buses and subways in Jehova's Witness and Puritan neighborhoods.

Lastly, how many posters do we have in this thread, less than 20?(...)
Well if you want specifics.

We will ignore STEED's highly inaccruate estimation of his prison sentence.
HunterICX in post 6 referring to Muslim Terrorist Dogs. Very pedestrian insults.
Post 7. What the hell does Kaptain mean by True British population. He didn't help matters when he said you had to be born in England (post 10 I think)
Post 14, Line One - such a sweeping generalisation, it was close to incitement under the UK's religious hatred laws. Doesn't help with the last line, what the hell does something that happened 1500 years ago have to do with the present debate.
Post 15, saying that living your life acording to Islamic teaching is incompatable with British Life.
Post 20: Steed saying that terrorist will do 15-20 years. 40 years is the minimum tarriff!!!
Kiwi_2005 posting something that the Conservative Party has derrided as Racist. (before the flame war about me accusing people of things, look at the careful way I posted this bullet point)Thanks. :up: That was really just for clarity.

It is true that Al-Qaeda's best opperatives are white, but not in the sense you mean it. The best operatives are the officials from the British government, the intellectuals, journalists and other agents that decided not to crack down on terrorists and only recently start to put pressure on extremist Imams.
Thats funny, its going on the office noticeboard. It could almost be taken from the writings of many third world dictators and left wing revolutionaries. "We must save the country from those who are saying something different from us"

Well, count me out of any "we". Brits do as they please and must ask no permission from me. I'm only interested in observing the reality and expressing it, I cannot narrate history if I'm an active part of it, involved in the process, I could give my account but it would be limited and partial and somebody else would have to take my words and put them back into perspective. So I could care less about "saving the country". I'm not like those naive kids fresh out of college who believe the world only has problems because they don't have the power in their hands to fix them as they believe to know and be able to apply all the solutions. Incitement to hatred or crime is a crime. If left unpunished, then eventually it will no longer be a crime. I only respect and tolerate the "difference" that respects and tolerates me in return. In the case of extremist Imams, they would not guarantee me freedom of speech if they had the power to do so, as their brothers in most of the Muslim world do not.

[ASWnut101]

*Laughs as others fight over the popcorn, while I eat chocolate, chips and drink all the soft drink without them realizing!*:D:yep:

I'm a tea totaler:smug:

*Walks over and coughs in bookworms food*


`der ya go! I got fastpox.:cool:

[joea]

Oh and how many muslims have posted threads mocking Christian places of worship as we have had here about mosques. Just an aside from a past thread.

Why should they bother posting here when they can openly insult and denigrate people in the mosque itself (Australia is a good recent example).

Yup, I read about that. :nope: Disgusting. Still no excuse to make jokes about mosques being built here.

[Yahoshua]

FYI Yahoshua I'm here, as have been other Muslims and not once can I recall any such behaviour as described above by anyone who I know to be a Muslim on this forum.

You're jumping the post here, I didn't say that Individuals HERE were doing so, but that the Imams already have their pulpit to voice their opinion from.

You certainly have some form of your own when it comes to insulting and denigrating people as evidenced by your comments towards the Democratic House Leader Nacy Pelosi as shown here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...=100637&page=2 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...=100637&page=2)

Firstly that comment wasn't directed toward Muslims, but toward Pelosis' agenda and her attitude toward gun owners (me). So what's your point?

Besides, I thought you were just on this thread "eating pop corn" and cheering on as you so often do. :roll:

The *Eating Popcorn* is reference to a smiley from another forum, namely these: (Just figured out how to import it)http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/yahoshua/popcorn.gif http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/yahoshua/Moredrama.gif because of all the http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/yahoshua/argue.gif. And uh, what jokes did I make about the mosques in particular?

[Takeda Shingen]

Play nice, kids.

[bookworm_020]

*Laughs as others fight over the popcorn, while I eat chocolate, chips and drink all the soft drink without them realizing!*:D:yep:

I'm a tea totaler:smug:
*Walks over and coughs in bookworms food*


`der ya go! I got fastpox.:cool:

*Takes off shoes and socks and tosses them at ASWnut101*

Noxious fumes fill the room,:doh: feet of Bookworm_020 have been classified as WMD's by UN, Greenpeace, CDC, USAMRID and Finace!:o

[Yahoshua]

*Grumbles as puts on gasmask, then gets bloody irritated when sneezing inside mask gets boogers all over the goggles*

[bookworm_020]

Laughs at Yahoshua, as he tries to think of a way to clean his gas mask without exposing himself to the effects of Biological Warfare.:doh: