AIP subs leaving our navy in the dust

[sharp]

Our cuts in funding of submarine research and development have severely crippled us in the next gen. sub warfare. As you can see here:
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/10120057/detail.html#


Sweden’s AIP sub Gotland has humiliated our best, although I'm not sure if it has faced Seawolf or Virginia class subs yet. But in theory it doesn't matter because we don't even have more than a few of these and once they become more standard in our navy the next gen of AIP boats (which are already underdevelopment) will be out

[diver]

Our cuts in funding of submarine research and development have severly cripled us in the next gen. sub warfare. As you can see here http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/10120057/detail.html#


Swedens AIP sub Gotland has humiliated our best, although I'm not sure if it has faced Seawolf or Virginia class subs yet. But in theory it doesn't matter because no matter we don't even have more than a few of these and onec they become more standard in our navy the next gen of AIP boats (which are already underdevelopment) will be out.


It's nothing new.
Even non-AIP equipped conventionals have been beating your nukes for years. The Collins class has many victories, so do the japs, and the old RAN O-boats.

[Onkel Neal]

Our cuts in funding of submarine research and development have severly cripled us in the next gen. sub warfare. As you can see here http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/10120057/detail.html#



Swedens AIP sub Gotland has humiliated our best, although I'm not sure if it has faced Seawolf or Virginia class subs yet. But in theory it doesn't matter because no matter we don't even have more than a few of these and onec they become more standard in our navy the next gen of AIP boats (which are already underdevelopment) will be out.


It's nothing new.
Even non-AIP equipped conventionals have been beating your nukes for years. The Collins class has many victories, so do the japs, and the old RAN O-boats.

Really? Where can one learn more about that? Do you have sources? I'm not disputing what you claim, just would like to read up on it. I can imagine AIP raises some interesting tactical situations, but how fast can an AIP sub go, and for how long? The old diesel subs in WWII were silent, too, but they had to be in position and hope the enemy crossed their path.

[Kapitan]

I can remember talking to a guy from HMS Tireless after he came back from duty he was exercising with the chilean navy and was against one of thier oberon class submarines, the chilean beat the traffie 3,2 the oberon despite being over 30 years old out did the traffie which was a nuke and alot younger.

All diesels are quiet even on the old tangos and whiskeys and kilos but the conventionals cant go for long periods of excess speed id immagine the AIP submarines are similar but they can go for much longer at faster speeds it wouldnt surprise me that the type 212 / 214 submarines could hit 33 knots at full wack.

Also a further note india retrofitted one of thier kilo class submarines with an experimental 7 blade propellor with that and thier superior indian batteries that said kilo hit 27 knots but the cost in battery life went through the roof after half hourish of flank speed the battery was quite litteraly dead.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Really? Where can one learn more about that? Do you have sources? I'm not disputing what you claim, just would like to read up on it. I can imagine AIP raises some interesting tactical situations, but how fast can an AIP sub go, and for how long? The old diesel subs in WWII were silent, too, but they had to be in position and hope the enemy crossed their path.

Try looking around for an paper by Roger Thompson called "Is the US Navy overrated?" I won't say it is a very good paper, really, there are enough flaws even for a relative layman like me, but it does have examples where this happened. It may still be somewhere on the net and I can fork over a copy if you can't find it.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Also a further note india retrofitted one of thier kilo class submarines with an experimental 7 blade propellor with that and thier superior indian batteries that said kilo hit 27 knots but the cost in battery life went through the roof after half hourish of flank speed the battery was quite litteraly dead.

Sounds like one of those 40-knot carrier sea stories to me. No matter how much charge the "superior" battery can hold, it can only increase endurance rather than top speed, which is regulated by the motor horsepower. Even if I assume the 7 blade propeller (and 636s already use 7-blade propellers while older Kilos use the 6-blade) has somehow doubled the effective thrust into the water (unlikely, since improvements in these things are incremental rather than revolutionary and India doesn't exactly have tons of experience in this whole subject of advanced sub propellers), it is unlikely to buy 7 whole knots.

[Kapitan]

Probably not and i agree with you its more than likely a roumer alot of them float around the indian navy in its attempt to scare pakistan, whats more intresting is though alot of the older indian kilo's have five bladed propellors.

Also i do know the indians have superior batteries as the russians have started to buy them for the lada class, they are far better than the russian ones provided.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Also i do know the indians have superior batteries as the russians have started to buy them for the lada class, they are far better than the russian ones provided.

Of that I have no doubt. India is getting quite technically advanced.

Actually, regarding AIP, few if any AIP systems really generate a lot of power in relation to the main propulsion (diesel and electric) systems. Effectively, for high speeds, the AIP sub is limited by its batteries just as much as an ordinary diesel-electric is. Where the system comes in helpful is providing a silent recharging option w/o need of snorkelling, or a high endurance option at moderate speeds.

Thanks to the way power curves work, even though an AIP typically only produces about 10-20% of the main propulsion's output, that's enough to allow for 1/3rd to 1/2th the maximum speed.

[sharp]

Here are the specs on the Gotland-class subs.
http://www.deagel.com/pandora/gotland_pm00172001.aspx
http://www.kockums.se/Submarines/gotland.html

The endurance claims are not consistent ranging from 2 to 4 weeks. I would it imagine it depends entirely on how active they are during a submerged period.

[sharp]

Here they claim only 2 weeks at 5 knots.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/gotland/

[SmokinTep]

A Sub is only as good as it's crew. I'll put our Subs against any in the world.

[sonar732]

This is from an article three years ago when the Aussies were having wargames off Hawaii.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/10/12/1034222635806.html

Officers in the exercise told The Sunday Age HMAS Sheean had held its own during two rigorous weeks of combat trials with the Los Angeles class attack sub, USS Olympia. The subs had swapped roles as hunter and prey and scored roughly equal numbers of hits.

During its mock attacks on the Olympia and on two US destroyers, the Sheean fired 28 torpedoes. Commander Davies said "a respectable percentage" of shots Sheean fired at Olympia were hits that would have destroyed the powerful US vessel.

[Konovalov]

This is from an article three years ago when the Aussies were having wargames off Hawaii.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/10/12/1034222635806.html

Officers in the exercise told The Sunday Age HMAS Sheean had held its own during two rigorous weeks of combat trials with the Los Angeles class attack sub, USS Olympia. The subs had swapped roles as hunter and prey and scored roughly equal numbers of hits.

During its mock attacks on the Olympia and on two US destroyers, the Sheean fired 28 torpedoes. Commander Davies said "a respectable percentage" of shots Sheean fired at Olympia were hits that would have destroyed the powerful US vessel.

At the time this was welcome news having there been so much controversy back home over the problems that the Collins class had encountered.

[SUBMAN1]

I can remember talking to a guy from HMS Tireless after he came back from duty he was exercising with the chilean navy and was against one of thier oberon class submarines, the chilean beat the traffie 3,2 the oberon despite being over 30 years old out did the traffie which was a nuke and alot younger.

All diesels are quiet even on the old tangos and whiskeys and kilos but the conventionals cant go for long periods of excess speed id immagine the AIP submarines are similar but they can go for much longer at faster speeds it wouldnt surprise me that the type 212 / 214 submarines could hit 33 knots at full wack.

Also a further note india retrofitted one of thier kilo class submarines with an experimental 7 blade propellor with that and thier superior indian batteries that said kilo hit 27 knots but the cost in battery life went through the roof after half hourish of flank speed the battery was quite litteraly dead.

Listened to the Captain of the 212 on a Discovery chan program - they are claiming 20 knots.

[Kapitan]

Well of corse they will claim 20 knots only a fool will tell you the true truth infact if anyone told you the truth about thier submarines i would seriously think they would be a spy.

Discovery channel claims that the new virginia goes down to 240 meters and has a speed of 25 knots, me and you both know that is one heck of a load of bulls**t as we know the 688i goes down to 400m

[ASWnut101]

nukes are loud. plain and simple. the prop wash is loud, and so is the blades smacking the water.

solution: hand cranked paddles.:yep:

[ASWnut101]

Well of corse they will claim 20 knots only a fool will tell you the true truth infact if anyone told you the truth about thier submarines i would seriously think they would be a spy.

Discovery channel claims that the new virginia goes down to 240 meters and has a speed of 25 knots, me and you both know that is one heck of a load of bulls**t as we know the 688i goes down to 400m

Those are the "official" depths and speed. US government releases those for any new sub now. most likley is this:

Virginia: Depth: ~1600 ft.
speed: ~42-45 kts max

Seawolf: Depth: ~1900 ft
speed: ~34-38 kts max

goatland (had to spell it like that): Depth: ~900-1100 ft
Speed: no more than 30 kts

Ohio SSBN: Depth: ~1100 ft max
Speed: ~30-32 kts max

[Kapitan]

I doubt the virginia could hit 42 to 45 knots maybe 36 to 38.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

I doubt the virginia could hit 42 to 45 knots maybe 36 to 38.

Can anybody explain this phenomena of people equating
"The true speed is classified"
with
"The true speed must be at least 10 knots more than what the common estimates say it is."

Considering the physics involved, it is more futile to try and make major lies about speed than about other aspects, like depth. The Americans tried that futile stupidity and I bet they didn't fool a single person who really cared.

If lies are to be made, it is more profitable to make it in depth - it is easier to generate an upper limit based on known limits of metallurgy than to really get the correct depth which is a weak-link-in-countless-systems situation. It will take some serious research for them to find that weak valve you had in Frame 108 that will faill 100 meters before everything else...

Of course, since according to the Americans especially, the real winners in underwater are silencing and sonar (electronics). Both are areas where huge whoppers can be made and no one can be the wiser. But speed?

[bookworm_020]

Our cuts in funding of submarine research and development have severly cripled us in the next gen. sub warfare. As you can see here http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/10120057/detail.html#



Swedens AIP sub Gotland has humiliated our best, although I'm not sure if it has faced Seawolf or Virginia class subs yet. But in theory it doesn't matter because no matter we don't even have more than a few of these and onec they become more standard in our navy the next gen of AIP boats (which are already underdevelopment) will be out.

It's nothing new.
Even non-AIP equipped conventionals have been beating your nukes for years. The Collins class has many victories, so do the japs, and the old RAN O-boats.
Really? Where can one learn more about that? Do you have sources? I'm not disputing what you claim, just would like to read up on it. I can imagine AIP raises some interesting tactical situations, but how fast can an AIP sub go, and for how long? The old diesel subs in WWII were silent, too, but they had to be in position and hope the enemy crossed their path.

There was a series done on TV which followed one of the Collins class as prepared for a 6 month deployment. It's availble on DVD, It called "the Submariners" there is a book also.

Here is the wikipedia link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collins_class_submarine

[Captain_Stabbing]

Reading all this bantering about nuke vs electric. It all lreally depends on what kinda waters you are in too. A nuke must keep curculation water while in latoral waters (remember, the cold wars over, and most battles are seeming to be fought in shallower coastal waters these days), while an electric can effectivly shut everything down and just wait like a giant ass-kicking sea mine, making as much noise "as a lightbulb"
And for all these speedy top speeds..... sure you can go balls to to the wall, but its like hunting from a freighttrain. The whole world can hear you, but you have no idea whats anywhere. The old Alpha Soviet boats were a prime example. As fast as they were useless, and man, were they fast.
So speed is nice and all, but I would be more worried about a puttering little diesel anyday over a nuke.
Thats my 2 bits.

[Kapitan]

Even an old whiskey, romeo, or foxtrot could kill a nuke if it just sat there.

[ASWnut101]

or my (still in planning phase) 'midget sub of death'

It will be the envy of the world.:lol:

[Linton]

Do not forget that the crew of an antique stationary diesel may be on a suicide mission with the promise of paradise after their death!

[Safe-Keeper]

So in other words, the day Sweden declares war, you're screwed. Better build that bomb shelter quickly, then:p.
[/Swede-teasing]

Heck, the Swedish military is impressive. The Visby-class stealth corvette, the JAS-39 Gripen fighter jet that can touch down on ordinary roads, and now this u-boat that even has the mighty USA stomped.

[Kapitan]

Oh yes the mighty swedes who in 1982 couldnt see a whiskey class submarine fully surfaced inside thier own waters even though it was a stone throw away from the shore, the only time they did notice it was when it ran aground even then they were a bit slow off the mark :D

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Oh yes the mighty swedes who in 1982 couldnt see a whiskey class submarine fully surfaced inside thier own waters even though it was a stone throw away from the shore, the only time they did notice it was when it ran aground even then they were a bit slow off the mark :D

Well, everyone, including of course the Russian military (Rust, a bunch of subs starting with K-...etc), has its off days. But Sweden's ability to make a near first-rate fighter all by themselves (more or less) in a world when fighters are getting more complex and expensive does deserve some applause. If Japan had half of whatever it is that Sweden has when it comes to fighter design, the F-2 might have been a success 10 years ago and they'd now be on the F-3.

[Kapitan]

Japan is a good naval force most of thier ships are home built and designed its just the kongo class design was borrowd from the americans and streached to suite japanese needs, also the japanese submarines have whats called progressive decomissioning and its the only navy to do it.

[TteFAboB]

So now that you're all done with the technical part, how about some strategy?

AIP subs deny you access to a coastal sea zone, what are your options?

1. Find another way in, maybe use giant flying wings/zeppelins to land your troops (actually I just want the tech developed for civvie use).
2. Do the Pearl Harbor and start the war with the bombing of the subs while they're in port/vulnerable/pin-pointed.
3. Get your own AIP hunter subs in there somehow, that's gonna be a long journey.
4. Build a giant airborne fishing net connected to an EMP generator (3 giant flying wings/zeppelins) and sweep the sea zone frying any subs that come in contact with the net.
5. Call the Ghostbusters.
6. Call in the Thunderbirds.
7. Use decoys: send in a large remote-controlled fleet of cheap WW2 Liberty Ships equipped with massive decoying devices to completely blind the subs, the rest of your force stay sharp to shut down the decoys at any moment and detect the subs that started moving.
8. Send in Kapitain in the Jahre Viking, with a keel that deep chances are he'll ram the subs.

Any other simple solutions? #7 seems pretty reasonable, if you can't hear you can't aim and if you can't aim you can't shoot and if you do shoot you can only hit a worthless decoy.

[Kapitan]

HEY !!! im not that bad !

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

So now that you're all done with the technical part, how about some strategy?

AIP subs deny you access to a coastal sea zone, what are your options?

2. Do the Pearl Harbor and start the war with the bombing of the subs while they're in port/vulnerable/pin-pointed.

#2's an option. Now don't say Pearl Harbor. The Israelis pull this "pre-emptive strike" crap too.

7. Use decoys: send in a large remote-controlled fleet of cheap WW2 Liberty Ships equipped with massive decoying devices to completely blind the subs, the rest of your force stay sharp to shut down the decoys at any moment and detect the subs that started moving.

Too expensive and too obvious a trap. Just drop a full set of buoys and then send a MOSS/MG-74 type decoy across, making it sound like the battle group. Have lots of airborne radars above the water and lots of active sonobuoys deterring closure so med-to-long range sonar's all they got, and they'd have to go by sound and shoot at the decoys. When they shoot you localize and kill those mobility impaired subs.

[ASWnut101]

Liberty Ships are NOT expensive. Also, too fast to build to sink them, (more ships can be built than can be sunk in a resonable amount of time).


And number two was just a joke......chill;)